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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Anschluss was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Munich Agreement was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
My conception of this article is that it is only about changes in the territory actually formally annexed or ceded by Germany. Thus, by this defintion, we would not include any part of France or Russia that was occupied but not formally annexed. Similarly, a map which shows "German language area" would appear to be about something other than "official borders of Germany". This is why I removed it from this article.
I think the map could be of use in an article which explained the motivation behind the territorial claims of German nationalists, especially the Nazis. It could also be of use in History of German settlement in Eastern Europe. I just don't think it is appropriate to the scope of this article.
-- Richard 01:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
German settlers were called into Eastern countries as early as the 12th century. Problems mainly arose after the rise of nationalism in the 19th Century, long before Hitler. After World War 1 the newly-founded national states Poland and Czechoslovakia forced the dominance of their nationals. The German minority hoped for self-determination, which they were not granted.-- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 20:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Isn't this another topic here?-- Kresspahl 15:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
copy and paste
History of Germany |
---|
![]() |
. (Nota: The Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation - which is larger than Deutschland - on its part lost too; it lost German and romanic speaking territories as well.)
Thanks for your message on my Talk Page. As it turns out, I had just reverted your edits and was coming to your Talk Page to leave a more detailed explanation. The envisioned scope of the
Territorial changes of Germany is to discuss changes to Germany after the formation of Germany as a country (Reich/Empire) in 1871. Prior to that, Germany did not exist as a sovereign state and so it makes no sense to discuss "territorial changes of Germany".
Your edits might be more relevant to a discussion of the Holy Roman Empire.
-- Richard 08:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
/copy and paste
conclusion: Germany lost territory long before 1871.(Of course the territorial loses could be relevant for the article on [Holy Roman Empire]] too.) Regards Aborvegyro 08:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you check out the actual article on the Holy Roman Empire? here, I will quote the opening of it, adding emphasis where needed:
The Holy Roman Empire was a supranational state, a conglomeration of mainly Germanic and Italian lands, consisting of kingdoms, principalities, duchies, counties, other lordships, and republics (Free Cities of the Empire) in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was a socio-political construct of the papacy and German dynasties brought into existence in the hopes of re-creating the Western Roman Empire equal to the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. Throughout most of its existence, though, it was a weak confederacy
To sum up, the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to Deutschland, but it was not Deutschland
-- Jadger 11:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The concept of the German nation as we interpret and use it today is based on the modern conception of nationalism, national identity and national territory, concepts that did not exist at the times of the Holy Roman Empire, so that it doesn't make any sense to interpret it in these terms. It was neither a national nor a supranational state because nations in their contemporary definition did not exist. And the discussion here also omits that the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to both Germany and Austria, demonstrating that Germany and the Holy Roman Empire are not identical. Jonas78 19:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! -- JamesR1701E 06:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Anyone else feel that this article's current name, Territorial changes of Germany, is slightly awkward? Something like "Changes in German territory" or "Changes in the extent of German territory" comes to mind.
Sardanaphalus (
talk) 11:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Munich agreement.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --00:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Losheim is redirected to Losheim Am See in Saarland. There is no article for Losheim in Belgium. Tiddy ( talk) 06:02, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Overall, the animated map is quite good in how it presents the border changes of the German state. However, after 1945 the diagram encounters numerous errors, which appear to steam from a theoretical interpretations of history rather than facts, and are serious enough to warrant the removal of the illustration until they can be fixed — the problems include:
In summary, the article is called Territorial evolution of Germany, hence it should not present political claims made by some in the the West German government, but the real changes in the borders of Germany. If that's the case, on the map you can just as easily dispute the changes after the Treaty of Versailles, since the German government in the 1920's and 30's refused to accept the legitimacy of those border changes — claiming that they were agreed to under duress. Also, Germany illegally took over the rest of Czechoslovakia, even though it was only given the Sudetenland, and the German administrative division of Poland was never accepted by any one… so if we want to base the map on theoretical claim then it's wrong from that perspective as well. In short, the map should not present the theoretical border of Germany, but the actual borders. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't this word appear in the article somewhere? I'm no expert, but I thought Hitler said that's what Germany needed, especially with the Sudetensland. deisenbe ( talk) 12:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I want to know 144.138.49.51 ( talk) 12:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
The redirect
Territorial changes of germany has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 13 § Territorial changes of germany until a consensus is reached.
Eurohunter (
talk) 17:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Anschluss was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Silesian Uprisings was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Territory of the Saar Basin was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Munich Agreement was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Munich Agreement was copied or moved into Territorial evolution of Germany with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
My conception of this article is that it is only about changes in the territory actually formally annexed or ceded by Germany. Thus, by this defintion, we would not include any part of France or Russia that was occupied but not formally annexed. Similarly, a map which shows "German language area" would appear to be about something other than "official borders of Germany". This is why I removed it from this article.
I think the map could be of use in an article which explained the motivation behind the territorial claims of German nationalists, especially the Nazis. It could also be of use in History of German settlement in Eastern Europe. I just don't think it is appropriate to the scope of this article.
-- Richard 01:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
German settlers were called into Eastern countries as early as the 12th century. Problems mainly arose after the rise of nationalism in the 19th Century, long before Hitler. After World War 1 the newly-founded national states Poland and Czechoslovakia forced the dominance of their nationals. The German minority hoped for self-determination, which they were not granted.-- 92.230.234.147 ( talk) 20:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Isn't this another topic here?-- Kresspahl 15:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
copy and paste
History of Germany |
---|
![]() |
. (Nota: The Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation - which is larger than Deutschland - on its part lost too; it lost German and romanic speaking territories as well.)
Thanks for your message on my Talk Page. As it turns out, I had just reverted your edits and was coming to your Talk Page to leave a more detailed explanation. The envisioned scope of the
Territorial changes of Germany is to discuss changes to Germany after the formation of Germany as a country (Reich/Empire) in 1871. Prior to that, Germany did not exist as a sovereign state and so it makes no sense to discuss "territorial changes of Germany".
Your edits might be more relevant to a discussion of the Holy Roman Empire.
-- Richard 08:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
/copy and paste
conclusion: Germany lost territory long before 1871.(Of course the territorial loses could be relevant for the article on [Holy Roman Empire]] too.) Regards Aborvegyro 08:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you check out the actual article on the Holy Roman Empire? here, I will quote the opening of it, adding emphasis where needed:
The Holy Roman Empire was a supranational state, a conglomeration of mainly Germanic and Italian lands, consisting of kingdoms, principalities, duchies, counties, other lordships, and republics (Free Cities of the Empire) in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was a socio-political construct of the papacy and German dynasties brought into existence in the hopes of re-creating the Western Roman Empire equal to the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. Throughout most of its existence, though, it was a weak confederacy
To sum up, the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to Deutschland, but it was not Deutschland
-- Jadger 11:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The concept of the German nation as we interpret and use it today is based on the modern conception of nationalism, national identity and national territory, concepts that did not exist at the times of the Holy Roman Empire, so that it doesn't make any sense to interpret it in these terms. It was neither a national nor a supranational state because nations in their contemporary definition did not exist. And the discussion here also omits that the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to both Germany and Austria, demonstrating that Germany and the Holy Roman Empire are not identical. Jonas78 19:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! -- JamesR1701E 06:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Anyone else feel that this article's current name, Territorial changes of Germany, is slightly awkward? Something like "Changes in German territory" or "Changes in the extent of German territory" comes to mind.
Sardanaphalus (
talk) 11:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Munich agreement.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --00:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Losheim is redirected to Losheim Am See in Saarland. There is no article for Losheim in Belgium. Tiddy ( talk) 06:02, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Overall, the animated map is quite good in how it presents the border changes of the German state. However, after 1945 the diagram encounters numerous errors, which appear to steam from a theoretical interpretations of history rather than facts, and are serious enough to warrant the removal of the illustration until they can be fixed — the problems include:
In summary, the article is called Territorial evolution of Germany, hence it should not present political claims made by some in the the West German government, but the real changes in the borders of Germany. If that's the case, on the map you can just as easily dispute the changes after the Treaty of Versailles, since the German government in the 1920's and 30's refused to accept the legitimacy of those border changes — claiming that they were agreed to under duress. Also, Germany illegally took over the rest of Czechoslovakia, even though it was only given the Sudetenland, and the German administrative division of Poland was never accepted by any one… so if we want to base the map on theoretical claim then it's wrong from that perspective as well. In short, the map should not present the theoretical border of Germany, but the actual borders. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't this word appear in the article somewhere? I'm no expert, but I thought Hitler said that's what Germany needed, especially with the Sudetensland. deisenbe ( talk) 12:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I want to know 144.138.49.51 ( talk) 12:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
The redirect
Territorial changes of germany has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 13 § Territorial changes of germany until a consensus is reached.
Eurohunter (
talk) 17:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)