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Teresa Sampsonia article. This is
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Teresia Sampsonia →
Teresa Sampsonia -- Made a small mistake. I initially called the article "Teresa" but later changed it "Teresia". Having just raised this article to GA, I came to the conclusion that the title should be changed back to "Teresa Sampsonia", because thats what mmost RS sources call her. -
LouisAragon (
talk)
17:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)reply
"born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668)" - missing a parenthese here?
Done
"After the death of her husband, and due to impediments from grandees at the court and the authorities during the reign of Abbas' successor and grandson Safi (r. 1629–1642), she decided to leave Iran." - "she decided to leave Iran"... this is confusing since you haven't established that she was there often, only explaining that she traveled often with her husband. Can you add something about staying in Iran once her husband passed away?
"She lived in a convent in Rome for the rest of her life, which she devoted to charity and religion." - this reads as though you're saying she devoted the convent to charity; reword
Done
Don't think linking Christianity is necessary
Done
"and reburied in the grave where she would also be buried." - awkward phrasing
"Teresa was received by many of the royal houses of Europe" - I thought she lived in Rome?
Done
"An emancipated figure of the seventeenth century, due to her exploits, she" - Definitely would mention Teresa's name again in this sentence. Also unsure about the "emancipated figure" description... I read it as "emaciated" at first and I think it needs to be tweaked or reworded
"due to her exploits, she has been described" - remove the comma after "exploits" - the rest of this sentence reads quite nicely
Early life and marriage
"She was named Sampsonia by birth." - Just "Sampsonia" or did she have another first name?
"was an English adventurer who was sent to the Safavids after a Persian embassy was sent to Europe to forge an alliance against the neighbouring Ottoman Empire, rivals of the Safavids.[8] " - badly needs to be reworded; "was...was...was" needs to be changed
"Around the time of their February 1608 marriage" - I'd replace "around" with another similar phrase... "At about" perhaps?
Done
Travels
Should start with a bit of background on Shirley if possible?
"She accompanied Shirley on his diplomatic missions to England" - Should start with "Teresa" rather than "She"
Done
"while her husband went on to visit" - hate the phrase "went on" - just say "visited" :)
Done
"In Madrid, Teresa came to know the Carmelite nuns, particularly Mother Beatrix de Jesus (the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[19][20]" - this parenthetical is overly long; maybe make it a separate sentence?
"Their only child, a son named Henry, probably the first child born in England of Iranian descent" - this seems like the sort of thing that should have its own footnote
Done
" and Queen Anne.[21][13] " - switch ref order
Done
"On their way back to Safavid Iran in 1613, they decided to turn young Henry over either to the care of the queen,[22] or Robert's own family in Sussex.[13]" - why? you should definitely try to consult refs for why
I think I've read about every single RS out there regarding this woman, the Shirleys and the Safavids -- unfortunately none of them mentions the reason. I will keep looking while I get to the rest of the points. -
LouisAragon (
talk)
01:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)reply
"but retained a symbolic item familiar to Perso-Georgian painting (a pistol in one portrait, said to refer to her saving Shirley from bandits or to indicate her noble family).[1][9]" - is the pistol the item? or did it change? this sentence is confusing
"they visited Rome briefly between 22 July and 29 August 1622, where Anthony van Dyck (then 23 years old) painted their portraits.[23][24] They then went to Poland, and visited England in 1623 for the last time. They sailed for the Safavid Empire in 1627 with Dodmore Cotton, an envoy from the king of England to Persia and other courts.[25]" - choppy prose; "they x", "they Y", "they z"
Done
Will get to the last section after these are addressed. Also, the Floor 2008 reference is not in the Sources section as far as I can tell. ceranthor22:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Ceranthor: Thanks for your message. No worries. I mentioned my intention in
my edit-summary, but I should've adressed it more clearly. My bad. I'm making more improvements/fixes in my sandbox as we speak. I'll ping you when I'm done in my sandbox, is that alright with you? Get well soon! -
LouisAragon (
talk)
23:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)reply
@
LouisAragon: Will post some comments shortly. Working on an FAC/GAN review at the moment, and some spotchecks for another requested review I have been postponing for quite some time! ceranthor23:56, 30 September 2018 (UTC)reply
"Teresa Sampsonia[a] (born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668) was a Safavid noblewoman and the wife of Elizabethan English adventurer Robert Shirley, whom she accompanied on his travels and in embassies across Europe in the name of the Safavid emperor, Abbas the Great (r. 1588–1629)." - recommend ending the sentence at "noblewoman", then making the rest a second sentence.
"such as English crown prince Henry Frederick and Queen Anne (her child's godparents), and contemporary writers and artists such as Thomas Herbert and Anthony van Dyck. " - why the comma before "and contemporary..."?
"According to Herbert, Robert Shirley "was the greatest Traveller of his time"; however, he admired the "undaunted Lady Teresa" even more.' - I think you should cite these direct quotes even if they're cited in the body text
"An emancipated figure of the seventeenth century," - emancipated reads awkwardly without more context here... IMO at least
Early life and marriage
"king (shah) Abbas the Great." - isn't king usually capitalized?
"Shirley was an English adventurer who was sent to the Safavids after a Persian embassy was sent to Europe" - too many clauses here; "was ... after was"; rewrite
Travels
"and other royal houses in Europe for king Abbas" - same note as above about capitalization
"On their first trip together," - I'd maybe give it the formal name as the link indicates (Persian embassy trip)
"There, Teresa remained in a convent in Kraków for some time," - "There" doesn't work well since it follows Rome AND Poland... maybe just cut it out, or replace with "In Poland, Teresa..."
"while her husband visited Prague, where Emperor Rudolph II (r. 1576–1612) bestowed the title of Count Palatine on him.[19] " - "while" and "where" used in too close proximity IMO
"(the king's ambassador, with whom they had an audience with the pope) " - Pope capitalized usually?
"Teresa then rejoined him in Lisbon via Hamburg; thereafter they went to Madrid.[21] In Madrid, Teresa came to know the Carmelite nuns, particularly Mother Beatrix de Jesus (the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[22]" - "Madrid" and "In Madrid" repeated in too close proximity
"(the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[22]" - rather long parenthetical - can you cut down the verbiage?
" "probably the first child born in England of Iranian descent", " - awkward integration of the quote... according to whom? Rather than the footnote, I think mentioning it in the text would be preferable here
"On their way back to Safavid Iran in 1613, they decided to turn young Henry over either to the care of the queen,[28] or Robert's own family in Sussex.[29]" - no comma necessary before "or Robert's..."
"During Shirley's diplomatic missions, their portraits were painted several times." - While "their"'s reference is implied here, it should be replaced with the two's proper names
"but retained a symbolic item familiar to Perso-Georgian painting (a pistol in one portrait, said to refer to her saving Shirley from bandits or to indicate her noble family).[30]" - unclear... is this item different in various portraits? Or was it always a pistol?
"The priests denied knowing where she was, and advised her to take refuge in the Church of Saint Augustine in New Julfa (the Armenian quarter in Isfahan);[47] they were brought to the favourite's house and threatened with torture before they were released.[48]" - add a "they" before "advised her"; I'd get rid of the semicolon and make that a second sentence
"This text shows that Teresa subverted the patriarchal gender roles common to the Muslim and Christian cultures of her time.[64]" - but how?
On culture
"The "hybrid identities" and adventures of Teresa " - such a quote should probably have attribution within the text, too
"As his "exotic wife with an even more exotic life story", Teresa, together with her husband, who dressed in the "Persian garb" as "ambassador" of the "Great Sophy", sparked a great deal of curiosity and interest "in the popular psyche" of their contemporaries in the West.[66]" - same note as above
Circassia I think was already linked earlier in the body text
"Works inspired by the couple include two portrait by the well known Anthony van Dyck, "a series of pamphlets" in numerous languages, as well as Jacobean stage plays including The Travels of the Three English Brothers.[71]" - before you haven't used the
serial comma; be consistent with either using it or not throughout the article
Going through and making small copyedits/tweaks here and there. Why do you refer to her as Teresa throughout, rather than using her last name? I ran into a similar issue at
Omayra Sánchez, and it was changed to using her last name. Thoughts? ceranthor16:18, 12 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Ceranthor: Because no one knows what her surname would be. One has to bear in mind that this is an individual from 17th-century Western Asia; people didn't use last names (as in the Western sense) at the time. So I have no idea what her last name would be. All sources simply refer to her as "Teresa", "Teresa Sampsonia", etc. Hope this answers your question. -
LouisAragon (
talk)
I'm currently translating this article into Danish. A user has asked a few questions on
the talk page on da.wiki(in Danish), stating that he's a bit confused about a few things in the article. As I've merely translated it, I think it's fine to ask them here, too (@
LouisAragon: Maybe you have the answers?). He asked the following questions (translated into English):
If she was called "Sampsonia" at birth and "Lady Shirley" after marriage, when was she called "Teresa Sampsonia"?
It says in the note immediately after her name in bold that she had a first name when she was baptized (but not when she was baptized)
It is also unclear whether the first name was Romanized when she was baptized (if so, why—it was in the Safavid kingdom), or whether it is different transcriptions or transliterations of a name in Persian or other language
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Teresa Sampsonia article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is written in
British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
varieties of English. According to the
relevant style guide, this should not be changed without
broad consensus.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Caucasia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CaucasiaWikipedia:WikiProject CaucasiaTemplate:WikiProject CaucasiaCaucasia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
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Teresia Sampsonia →
Teresa Sampsonia -- Made a small mistake. I initially called the article "Teresa" but later changed it "Teresia". Having just raised this article to GA, I came to the conclusion that the title should be changed back to "Teresa Sampsonia", because thats what mmost RS sources call her. -
LouisAragon (
talk)
17:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)reply
"born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668)" - missing a parenthese here?
Done
"After the death of her husband, and due to impediments from grandees at the court and the authorities during the reign of Abbas' successor and grandson Safi (r. 1629–1642), she decided to leave Iran." - "she decided to leave Iran"... this is confusing since you haven't established that she was there often, only explaining that she traveled often with her husband. Can you add something about staying in Iran once her husband passed away?
"She lived in a convent in Rome for the rest of her life, which she devoted to charity and religion." - this reads as though you're saying she devoted the convent to charity; reword
Done
Don't think linking Christianity is necessary
Done
"and reburied in the grave where she would also be buried." - awkward phrasing
"Teresa was received by many of the royal houses of Europe" - I thought she lived in Rome?
Done
"An emancipated figure of the seventeenth century, due to her exploits, she" - Definitely would mention Teresa's name again in this sentence. Also unsure about the "emancipated figure" description... I read it as "emaciated" at first and I think it needs to be tweaked or reworded
"due to her exploits, she has been described" - remove the comma after "exploits" - the rest of this sentence reads quite nicely
Early life and marriage
"She was named Sampsonia by birth." - Just "Sampsonia" or did she have another first name?
"was an English adventurer who was sent to the Safavids after a Persian embassy was sent to Europe to forge an alliance against the neighbouring Ottoman Empire, rivals of the Safavids.[8] " - badly needs to be reworded; "was...was...was" needs to be changed
"Around the time of their February 1608 marriage" - I'd replace "around" with another similar phrase... "At about" perhaps?
Done
Travels
Should start with a bit of background on Shirley if possible?
"She accompanied Shirley on his diplomatic missions to England" - Should start with "Teresa" rather than "She"
Done
"while her husband went on to visit" - hate the phrase "went on" - just say "visited" :)
Done
"In Madrid, Teresa came to know the Carmelite nuns, particularly Mother Beatrix de Jesus (the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[19][20]" - this parenthetical is overly long; maybe make it a separate sentence?
"Their only child, a son named Henry, probably the first child born in England of Iranian descent" - this seems like the sort of thing that should have its own footnote
Done
" and Queen Anne.[21][13] " - switch ref order
Done
"On their way back to Safavid Iran in 1613, they decided to turn young Henry over either to the care of the queen,[22] or Robert's own family in Sussex.[13]" - why? you should definitely try to consult refs for why
I think I've read about every single RS out there regarding this woman, the Shirleys and the Safavids -- unfortunately none of them mentions the reason. I will keep looking while I get to the rest of the points. -
LouisAragon (
talk)
01:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)reply
"but retained a symbolic item familiar to Perso-Georgian painting (a pistol in one portrait, said to refer to her saving Shirley from bandits or to indicate her noble family).[1][9]" - is the pistol the item? or did it change? this sentence is confusing
"they visited Rome briefly between 22 July and 29 August 1622, where Anthony van Dyck (then 23 years old) painted their portraits.[23][24] They then went to Poland, and visited England in 1623 for the last time. They sailed for the Safavid Empire in 1627 with Dodmore Cotton, an envoy from the king of England to Persia and other courts.[25]" - choppy prose; "they x", "they Y", "they z"
Done
Will get to the last section after these are addressed. Also, the Floor 2008 reference is not in the Sources section as far as I can tell. ceranthor22:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Ceranthor: Thanks for your message. No worries. I mentioned my intention in
my edit-summary, but I should've adressed it more clearly. My bad. I'm making more improvements/fixes in my sandbox as we speak. I'll ping you when I'm done in my sandbox, is that alright with you? Get well soon! -
LouisAragon (
talk)
23:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)reply
@
LouisAragon: Will post some comments shortly. Working on an FAC/GAN review at the moment, and some spotchecks for another requested review I have been postponing for quite some time! ceranthor23:56, 30 September 2018 (UTC)reply
"Teresa Sampsonia[a] (born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668) was a Safavid noblewoman and the wife of Elizabethan English adventurer Robert Shirley, whom she accompanied on his travels and in embassies across Europe in the name of the Safavid emperor, Abbas the Great (r. 1588–1629)." - recommend ending the sentence at "noblewoman", then making the rest a second sentence.
"such as English crown prince Henry Frederick and Queen Anne (her child's godparents), and contemporary writers and artists such as Thomas Herbert and Anthony van Dyck. " - why the comma before "and contemporary..."?
"According to Herbert, Robert Shirley "was the greatest Traveller of his time"; however, he admired the "undaunted Lady Teresa" even more.' - I think you should cite these direct quotes even if they're cited in the body text
"An emancipated figure of the seventeenth century," - emancipated reads awkwardly without more context here... IMO at least
Early life and marriage
"king (shah) Abbas the Great." - isn't king usually capitalized?
"Shirley was an English adventurer who was sent to the Safavids after a Persian embassy was sent to Europe" - too many clauses here; "was ... after was"; rewrite
Travels
"and other royal houses in Europe for king Abbas" - same note as above about capitalization
"On their first trip together," - I'd maybe give it the formal name as the link indicates (Persian embassy trip)
"There, Teresa remained in a convent in Kraków for some time," - "There" doesn't work well since it follows Rome AND Poland... maybe just cut it out, or replace with "In Poland, Teresa..."
"while her husband visited Prague, where Emperor Rudolph II (r. 1576–1612) bestowed the title of Count Palatine on him.[19] " - "while" and "where" used in too close proximity IMO
"(the king's ambassador, with whom they had an audience with the pope) " - Pope capitalized usually?
"Teresa then rejoined him in Lisbon via Hamburg; thereafter they went to Madrid.[21] In Madrid, Teresa came to know the Carmelite nuns, particularly Mother Beatrix de Jesus (the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[22]" - "Madrid" and "In Madrid" repeated in too close proximity
"(the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[22]" - rather long parenthetical - can you cut down the verbiage?
" "probably the first child born in England of Iranian descent", " - awkward integration of the quote... according to whom? Rather than the footnote, I think mentioning it in the text would be preferable here
"On their way back to Safavid Iran in 1613, they decided to turn young Henry over either to the care of the queen,[28] or Robert's own family in Sussex.[29]" - no comma necessary before "or Robert's..."
"During Shirley's diplomatic missions, their portraits were painted several times." - While "their"'s reference is implied here, it should be replaced with the two's proper names
"but retained a symbolic item familiar to Perso-Georgian painting (a pistol in one portrait, said to refer to her saving Shirley from bandits or to indicate her noble family).[30]" - unclear... is this item different in various portraits? Or was it always a pistol?
"The priests denied knowing where she was, and advised her to take refuge in the Church of Saint Augustine in New Julfa (the Armenian quarter in Isfahan);[47] they were brought to the favourite's house and threatened with torture before they were released.[48]" - add a "they" before "advised her"; I'd get rid of the semicolon and make that a second sentence
"This text shows that Teresa subverted the patriarchal gender roles common to the Muslim and Christian cultures of her time.[64]" - but how?
On culture
"The "hybrid identities" and adventures of Teresa " - such a quote should probably have attribution within the text, too
"As his "exotic wife with an even more exotic life story", Teresa, together with her husband, who dressed in the "Persian garb" as "ambassador" of the "Great Sophy", sparked a great deal of curiosity and interest "in the popular psyche" of their contemporaries in the West.[66]" - same note as above
Circassia I think was already linked earlier in the body text
"Works inspired by the couple include two portrait by the well known Anthony van Dyck, "a series of pamphlets" in numerous languages, as well as Jacobean stage plays including The Travels of the Three English Brothers.[71]" - before you haven't used the
serial comma; be consistent with either using it or not throughout the article
Going through and making small copyedits/tweaks here and there. Why do you refer to her as Teresa throughout, rather than using her last name? I ran into a similar issue at
Omayra Sánchez, and it was changed to using her last name. Thoughts? ceranthor16:18, 12 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Ceranthor: Because no one knows what her surname would be. One has to bear in mind that this is an individual from 17th-century Western Asia; people didn't use last names (as in the Western sense) at the time. So I have no idea what her last name would be. All sources simply refer to her as "Teresa", "Teresa Sampsonia", etc. Hope this answers your question. -
LouisAragon (
talk)
I'm currently translating this article into Danish. A user has asked a few questions on
the talk page on da.wiki(in Danish), stating that he's a bit confused about a few things in the article. As I've merely translated it, I think it's fine to ask them here, too (@
LouisAragon: Maybe you have the answers?). He asked the following questions (translated into English):
If she was called "Sampsonia" at birth and "Lady Shirley" after marriage, when was she called "Teresa Sampsonia"?
It says in the note immediately after her name in bold that she had a first name when she was baptized (but not when she was baptized)
It is also unclear whether the first name was Romanized when she was baptized (if so, why—it was in the Safavid kingdom), or whether it is different transcriptions or transliterations of a name in Persian or other language