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I didn't want to insert this independently, but mightn't it be helpful to create cross-links clarifying the distinction between Theresa Nielsen Hayden, science fiction writer, and Teresa Nielsen, fantasy artist. They have extremely similar names and vaguely similar occupations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BD66:25A0:317B:7DBD:EB7A:A25B ( talk) 00:34, 16 November 2015 (UTC) or Theresa Nielsen, the Danish athlete, who is the current person who shows up when entering "Theresa Nielsen" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BD66:25A0:317B:7DBD:EB7A:A25B ( talk) 04:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
"Nielsen Hayden is the inventor of disemvowelling."
I doubt this and it definitely needs a citation. There is no mention of her "inventing" it on the disemvowelling site and I doubt that this was something that started with one person. I will see what I can find out but that is my explanation for removing it. Crito2161 01:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There are two elements here. One is the loss of the subject's medication. We don't normally get into this level of detail about biographical subjects. Is the matter worth mentioning in a short article? Is her narcolepsy important? Should we say more about that? The second half simply says that the subject blogged on a topic and some fellow bloggers commented on her piece. That is insignificant, unencyclopedic, and depends on blogs as secondary sources.
I propose we rewrite the material:
A little research shows that the issues with this drug, and advocacy for patients who used to take it, predated January 2006. [7]. It would be inaccurate to assert that the subject was the first to bring this "to light". - Will Beback 11:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
SwatJester has raised again (August 2007) the question of whether this topic belongs in the encyclopedia article. As the question has been discussed previously (see above), it seems that the most conservative approach would be to edit the language, rather than delete material that has already been discussed and vetted at least once before. It appears that Nielsen Hayden has served as an advocate or "poster child" for this disease -- she is, for example, the first person listed in [
List of People With Narcolepsy]. The entry appears to be factually correct, does no harm, and might perhaps do some good.
MarkBernstein 02:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
In this article in Information Week [8], Cory Doctorow credits Nielsen Hayden with inventing disemvowelling. --Akhilleus ( talk) 19:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we get a better reference on the creation of disemvowelling? As it stands now this "fact" is verified by a reference from a man who is essentially Nielsen Hayden's employer. 70.133.223.150 ( talk) 16:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what an " attack site" is, but Making Light isn't it. It's a group-edited blog, moderated and founded by Teresa Nielsen Hayden, who remains one of the strongest voices on that page. The site is widely read in Nielsen Hayden's field -- science fiction -- and is often referred to in trade publications such as the multi- Hugo-winning Ansible. It is appropriate for a noteworthy blog that Nielsen Hayden founded and posts to regularly to be included in her Wikipedia biography. Doctorow 23:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I see no evidence that Making Light is an attack site. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Arbitration Committee, A website that engages in the practice of publishing private information concerning the identities of Wikipedia participants will be regarded as an attack site whose pages should not be linked to from Wikipedia pages under any circumstances. I have looked at the site, and am completely satisfied that it engages in that practice. Therefore, we should not link to it. I do not intend to give details in the sense of "Go to the main page, and click on the link at the second from the top at the left-hand side" etc. Once there's question of privacy violations, we should err on the side of protecting our contributors. Of course, if the webmasters remove the privacy-violating information, which it is perfectly in their power to do, there will be no reason not to link to it. Musical L inguist 11:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, so it's a breach of Wikipedia's policies on contributor privacy. Calling such a site an "attack site", without even a pointer to a definition or supporting policy, looks a lot like abuse. (I gave the relevant blog a skim--there's a claim that the anonymity of Wikipedia is being abused, and so is damaging Wikipedia.) There isn't an easy answer, but I suggest that Mr. Beback, whatever his real life identity, needs to back off. Like it or not, I think he's becoming part of the problem. 88.109.57.55 12:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
See my essay on the whole "BADSITES" controversy. *Dan T.* 21:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Hornplease's post above: I see no evidence that Making Light is in the practice of violating the privacy of Wikipedia editors. I see a comment about an ED thread, and a link to that ED thread; if there are any links from Wikipedia to those posts on Making Light, then those links should be removed. But since the vast, overwhelming majority of Making Light has nothing to do with Wikipedia, much less investigating Wikipedia editors' backgrounds, and since Making Light is being used to provide source material for Wikipedia articles, there's no justification for removing all links to the site. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Arbitration Committee - and they have clarified this once already - the AC have not given licence for blanket removal of links to any site just because someone feels like deeming an 'attack site'. Any such rule that could possibly be applied to nielsenhayden.com is self-evidently too stupid for words and demonstrably dangerous to have around on Wikipedia.
By the way, Will Beback and Teresa Nielsen Hayden have already resolved this actual incident between themselves. It has no relevance to this talk page and should probably go somewhere else - David Gerard 16:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If no third-party sources are forthcoming, this article should be stubbed. See WP:SELFPUB. -- Ronz 03:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
How about just listing possible sources here? -- Ronz 20:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Every editor makes people unhappy. Every moderator does, too. I'm far from convinced that the "controversy" discussed here rises to the level of meriting inclusion in the encyclopedia entry. I also note that the contribution stems from an IP editor who is adding other contributions on the same "controversy" to other pages. I'd suggest reverting the controversy section unless it can be established that there's a real controversy, and not simply the sort of unhappiness that everyone in a similar position eventually faces. MarkBernstein ( talk) 13:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the new version is that it gives the impression that Teresa Nielsen Hayden was the editor who removed the Violet Blue posts from view (which is not the case) and that the disemvowelment techniques were involved in the removal which, despite the NYT's cute turns of phrase, is also not the case. As I understand the story, Xeni Jardin removed the posts a year ago (before TNH worked for BoingBoing) using the "unpublish" feature of Movable Type which is quite unrelated to disemvowelment. I think TNH has worked for Federated Media/BoingBoing only since the end of August, 2007. Xeni's removals, described at the end of June 2008 as having been "a year ago," would have taken place two months before TNH worked there. -- Pleasantville ( talk) 10:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I propose we remove this controversy from the article for the time being, and revisit the question in six months -- that is, in January 2009. At that point, I think we'll be in a better position to assess where this matter fits in the subject's career. Wikipedia is not a newspaper (
WP:NOT#NEWS); we don't need to be blindingly up-to-the-minute. If this is notable, it will still be
WP:NOTABILITY in January. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
MarkBernstein (
talk •
contribs) 14:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The WP:NOTABILITY question is simple. On the one hand, we have an entire career as a writer/editor and prominent member of the science fiction community. On the other hand, we have a spat on a particular Web magazine over publication or unpublication of some posts by a sex columnist. This spat matters a lot to [Special:Contributions/76.91.90.112|76.91.90.112]] ( talk, but there is good reason to wonder whether it is actually historic. (As Pleasantville has pointed out, it's not enitrely clear that the subject even plays much role in the matter.) MarkBernstein ( talk) 14:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
This section has not even begun to address or cover her considerable activity on an online forum called Absolute Write where she posted for many years as an anonymous entity known only as Hapisofi. Utilizing this guise, she was able to continue an underground, supported by the owners of Absolute Write, wherein she perpetrated act after act of what any reasonable person would see as overly harsh, untrue, and unfair criticism of various presses, editors and writers. Here is a link addressing this issue with several more links showing clear evidence of this activity by Teresa Nielsen Hayden posing as the personality Hapisofi: http://writeabsolutereviews.blogspot.com/2015/01/teresa-nielsen-hayden-fired-from-tor.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.210.90 ( talk) 17:08, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
In relation to our other dispute, I've been looking through the citations on this article to get a feeling about what qualifies for mention. I noticed something odd when I checked the citation on the 1989 Hugo, it doesn't actually mention Teresa Nielsen Hayden. "The New York Review of Science Fiction ed. by Kathryn Cramer, David G. Hartwell and Gordon Van Gelder".
Why is this nomination included in the article? 76.91.90.112 ( talk) 00:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I was nominated with her and administer the NYRSF site. She really really was on that Hugo ballot. -- Pleasantville ( talk) 13:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC) aka Kathryn Cramer
Looks like Pleasantville deleted my additions pertaining to RaceFail09, claiming that "blogs and LJs won't do" when it comes to "reliable sources." Um, I included FeministSF Wiki. Also, the various LJers had screencaps by TNH. Note, also, that hundreds of people have criticized the NHs at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LiliVonShtup ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
There were several references to subject's association with Tor, however, the citation did not reference her in the present or past tense - in fact it didn't reference her at all. I cannot find a reliable source that discusses or mentions her association or lack thereof with Tor, but it seems to be some sort of common knowledge in the industry. Perhaps it's some type of name confusion with her spouse, who appears on the Tor site as an editor. If anyone is interested and can find a good source, it would be good to make her work history accurate. Without a reliable source, there is no way to inculcate her involvement with Tor.
Kennedy Trengove ( talk) 04:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be worth noting the TOR site itself no longer lists her name anywhere on there. I don't see how you could get more reliable than that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sango75 ( talk • contribs) 13:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
REMEMBER BLP. There's off-wiki agitation by anonymous enemies of the subject to remove the affiliation from Wikipedia. Reliable sources clearly indicate that she has been an editor at Tor (e,g,
http://viableparadise.net/viable-paradise-instructors/teresa-nielsen-hayden/ and
http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/nielsen_hayden_teresa), and of course it is true that she has long been an editor for that house. No change should be made to the page until and unless the change in status has been published in a reliable source.
MarkBernstein (
talk) 16:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I continue to find sourcing problems with references that have been here a long time. The source for the subjects editing of a major novel points to a comment left on a group-blog, by the subject herself. Working on finding better sources and removing items that don't meet sourcing guidelines. Anyone up to help? Kennedy Trengove ( talk) 14:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
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It is requested that a photograph of the subject actually facing forward, rather than a 3/4 profile be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Teresa Nielsen Hayden article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
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autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
I didn't want to insert this independently, but mightn't it be helpful to create cross-links clarifying the distinction between Theresa Nielsen Hayden, science fiction writer, and Teresa Nielsen, fantasy artist. They have extremely similar names and vaguely similar occupations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BD66:25A0:317B:7DBD:EB7A:A25B ( talk) 00:34, 16 November 2015 (UTC) or Theresa Nielsen, the Danish athlete, who is the current person who shows up when entering "Theresa Nielsen" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BD66:25A0:317B:7DBD:EB7A:A25B ( talk) 04:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
"Nielsen Hayden is the inventor of disemvowelling."
I doubt this and it definitely needs a citation. There is no mention of her "inventing" it on the disemvowelling site and I doubt that this was something that started with one person. I will see what I can find out but that is my explanation for removing it. Crito2161 01:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There are two elements here. One is the loss of the subject's medication. We don't normally get into this level of detail about biographical subjects. Is the matter worth mentioning in a short article? Is her narcolepsy important? Should we say more about that? The second half simply says that the subject blogged on a topic and some fellow bloggers commented on her piece. That is insignificant, unencyclopedic, and depends on blogs as secondary sources.
I propose we rewrite the material:
A little research shows that the issues with this drug, and advocacy for patients who used to take it, predated January 2006. [7]. It would be inaccurate to assert that the subject was the first to bring this "to light". - Will Beback 11:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
SwatJester has raised again (August 2007) the question of whether this topic belongs in the encyclopedia article. As the question has been discussed previously (see above), it seems that the most conservative approach would be to edit the language, rather than delete material that has already been discussed and vetted at least once before. It appears that Nielsen Hayden has served as an advocate or "poster child" for this disease -- she is, for example, the first person listed in [
List of People With Narcolepsy]. The entry appears to be factually correct, does no harm, and might perhaps do some good.
MarkBernstein 02:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
In this article in Information Week [8], Cory Doctorow credits Nielsen Hayden with inventing disemvowelling. --Akhilleus ( talk) 19:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we get a better reference on the creation of disemvowelling? As it stands now this "fact" is verified by a reference from a man who is essentially Nielsen Hayden's employer. 70.133.223.150 ( talk) 16:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what an " attack site" is, but Making Light isn't it. It's a group-edited blog, moderated and founded by Teresa Nielsen Hayden, who remains one of the strongest voices on that page. The site is widely read in Nielsen Hayden's field -- science fiction -- and is often referred to in trade publications such as the multi- Hugo-winning Ansible. It is appropriate for a noteworthy blog that Nielsen Hayden founded and posts to regularly to be included in her Wikipedia biography. Doctorow 23:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I see no evidence that Making Light is an attack site. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Arbitration Committee, A website that engages in the practice of publishing private information concerning the identities of Wikipedia participants will be regarded as an attack site whose pages should not be linked to from Wikipedia pages under any circumstances. I have looked at the site, and am completely satisfied that it engages in that practice. Therefore, we should not link to it. I do not intend to give details in the sense of "Go to the main page, and click on the link at the second from the top at the left-hand side" etc. Once there's question of privacy violations, we should err on the side of protecting our contributors. Of course, if the webmasters remove the privacy-violating information, which it is perfectly in their power to do, there will be no reason not to link to it. Musical L inguist 11:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, so it's a breach of Wikipedia's policies on contributor privacy. Calling such a site an "attack site", without even a pointer to a definition or supporting policy, looks a lot like abuse. (I gave the relevant blog a skim--there's a claim that the anonymity of Wikipedia is being abused, and so is damaging Wikipedia.) There isn't an easy answer, but I suggest that Mr. Beback, whatever his real life identity, needs to back off. Like it or not, I think he's becoming part of the problem. 88.109.57.55 12:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
See my essay on the whole "BADSITES" controversy. *Dan T.* 21:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Hornplease's post above: I see no evidence that Making Light is in the practice of violating the privacy of Wikipedia editors. I see a comment about an ED thread, and a link to that ED thread; if there are any links from Wikipedia to those posts on Making Light, then those links should be removed. But since the vast, overwhelming majority of Making Light has nothing to do with Wikipedia, much less investigating Wikipedia editors' backgrounds, and since Making Light is being used to provide source material for Wikipedia articles, there's no justification for removing all links to the site. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Arbitration Committee - and they have clarified this once already - the AC have not given licence for blanket removal of links to any site just because someone feels like deeming an 'attack site'. Any such rule that could possibly be applied to nielsenhayden.com is self-evidently too stupid for words and demonstrably dangerous to have around on Wikipedia.
By the way, Will Beback and Teresa Nielsen Hayden have already resolved this actual incident between themselves. It has no relevance to this talk page and should probably go somewhere else - David Gerard 16:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If no third-party sources are forthcoming, this article should be stubbed. See WP:SELFPUB. -- Ronz 03:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
How about just listing possible sources here? -- Ronz 20:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Every editor makes people unhappy. Every moderator does, too. I'm far from convinced that the "controversy" discussed here rises to the level of meriting inclusion in the encyclopedia entry. I also note that the contribution stems from an IP editor who is adding other contributions on the same "controversy" to other pages. I'd suggest reverting the controversy section unless it can be established that there's a real controversy, and not simply the sort of unhappiness that everyone in a similar position eventually faces. MarkBernstein ( talk) 13:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the new version is that it gives the impression that Teresa Nielsen Hayden was the editor who removed the Violet Blue posts from view (which is not the case) and that the disemvowelment techniques were involved in the removal which, despite the NYT's cute turns of phrase, is also not the case. As I understand the story, Xeni Jardin removed the posts a year ago (before TNH worked for BoingBoing) using the "unpublish" feature of Movable Type which is quite unrelated to disemvowelment. I think TNH has worked for Federated Media/BoingBoing only since the end of August, 2007. Xeni's removals, described at the end of June 2008 as having been "a year ago," would have taken place two months before TNH worked there. -- Pleasantville ( talk) 10:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I propose we remove this controversy from the article for the time being, and revisit the question in six months -- that is, in January 2009. At that point, I think we'll be in a better position to assess where this matter fits in the subject's career. Wikipedia is not a newspaper (
WP:NOT#NEWS); we don't need to be blindingly up-to-the-minute. If this is notable, it will still be
WP:NOTABILITY in January. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
MarkBernstein (
talk •
contribs) 14:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The WP:NOTABILITY question is simple. On the one hand, we have an entire career as a writer/editor and prominent member of the science fiction community. On the other hand, we have a spat on a particular Web magazine over publication or unpublication of some posts by a sex columnist. This spat matters a lot to [Special:Contributions/76.91.90.112|76.91.90.112]] ( talk, but there is good reason to wonder whether it is actually historic. (As Pleasantville has pointed out, it's not enitrely clear that the subject even plays much role in the matter.) MarkBernstein ( talk) 14:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
This section has not even begun to address or cover her considerable activity on an online forum called Absolute Write where she posted for many years as an anonymous entity known only as Hapisofi. Utilizing this guise, she was able to continue an underground, supported by the owners of Absolute Write, wherein she perpetrated act after act of what any reasonable person would see as overly harsh, untrue, and unfair criticism of various presses, editors and writers. Here is a link addressing this issue with several more links showing clear evidence of this activity by Teresa Nielsen Hayden posing as the personality Hapisofi: http://writeabsolutereviews.blogspot.com/2015/01/teresa-nielsen-hayden-fired-from-tor.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.210.90 ( talk) 17:08, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
In relation to our other dispute, I've been looking through the citations on this article to get a feeling about what qualifies for mention. I noticed something odd when I checked the citation on the 1989 Hugo, it doesn't actually mention Teresa Nielsen Hayden. "The New York Review of Science Fiction ed. by Kathryn Cramer, David G. Hartwell and Gordon Van Gelder".
Why is this nomination included in the article? 76.91.90.112 ( talk) 00:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I was nominated with her and administer the NYRSF site. She really really was on that Hugo ballot. -- Pleasantville ( talk) 13:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC) aka Kathryn Cramer
Looks like Pleasantville deleted my additions pertaining to RaceFail09, claiming that "blogs and LJs won't do" when it comes to "reliable sources." Um, I included FeministSF Wiki. Also, the various LJers had screencaps by TNH. Note, also, that hundreds of people have criticized the NHs at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LiliVonShtup ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
There were several references to subject's association with Tor, however, the citation did not reference her in the present or past tense - in fact it didn't reference her at all. I cannot find a reliable source that discusses or mentions her association or lack thereof with Tor, but it seems to be some sort of common knowledge in the industry. Perhaps it's some type of name confusion with her spouse, who appears on the Tor site as an editor. If anyone is interested and can find a good source, it would be good to make her work history accurate. Without a reliable source, there is no way to inculcate her involvement with Tor.
Kennedy Trengove ( talk) 04:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be worth noting the TOR site itself no longer lists her name anywhere on there. I don't see how you could get more reliable than that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sango75 ( talk • contribs) 13:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
REMEMBER BLP. There's off-wiki agitation by anonymous enemies of the subject to remove the affiliation from Wikipedia. Reliable sources clearly indicate that she has been an editor at Tor (e,g,
http://viableparadise.net/viable-paradise-instructors/teresa-nielsen-hayden/ and
http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/nielsen_hayden_teresa), and of course it is true that she has long been an editor for that house. No change should be made to the page until and unless the change in status has been published in a reliable source.
MarkBernstein (
talk) 16:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I continue to find sourcing problems with references that have been here a long time. The source for the subjects editing of a major novel points to a comment left on a group-blog, by the subject herself. Working on finding better sources and removing items that don't meet sourcing guidelines. Anyone up to help? Kennedy Trengove ( talk) 14:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Teresa Nielsen Hayden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:34, 26 December 2017 (UTC)