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Arminden: do you have a sense re when the Modern Hebrew name was first invented for this place? This 1958 map still shows only the Arabic name. In STERN, E. (1978).
EXCAVATIONS AT TEL MEVORAKH (1973-1976). Qedem, 9, III-105 the names Tel Tanninim and Tel Malat were used in parallel.
The new river name seems to have been given first, presumably
by the 1951 committee which focused on geographical features.
@
Onceinawhile: I have no idea. Your guess sounds logical, but I don't have a clue. I Google-translated the Hebrew WP article and tried to open their sources, too. The 1975 date is from there, but the probable source is a dead link. The 2004 excavation they mention is taken from a
Hadashot post titled "Tel Tanninim: Final Report", which is about a segment of the Lower-level Aqueduct to Caesarea, somewhere west of Jisr, but it's not at all clear if it even has anything to do with the tell; I'd say not, because the aqueduct segment has been dug into bedrock, and a tell... is a tell, rising above bedrock. Now I've compared their
map showing the excavation location, with the
Google Maps location of the tell, and it looks c. 200m further inland from the tell. So the 2004 date is probably unrelated to the tell, making me skeptical about 1975, as well. Btw, if you want to put back in "Hebraization", I'm taking back my reservations. It's on the tendentious side, I'm familiar with a similar phenomenon from Transylvania, where every ethnolingual group made up their own names, first and foremost because you want to be able to pronounce and relate to the places around you. But whatever. There are clear cases of obvious top-down, government-prescribed appropriation through language; this one looks more logical and organic, but boundaries are fluid. Cheers,
Arminden (
talk)
00:26, 19 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Arminden thanks for this. I agree that doesn’t seem to be the same excavation. I don’t propose to put back the Hebraization wording (or an improved form of the same, as your point re Greek was right) as I don’t have a source.
The core point that I think this article should make clear, assuming sources confirm it, is that the Greek came first, the connection to the “salt tower” is based on [?], and the current name is new. It’s quite unusual that a single place has three/four entirely different groups of names.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
00:59, 19 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Onceinawhile, yes, a bit more names than usual, but quite logical. Crocodiles are quite a conspicuous thing. The Crusader tower too. And salting fish or other meats using sea salt on the coast was common since at least the Neolithic(see
Ashkelon#Neolithic period). The weird part is the mortar, that I can't figure out. Did anyone confirm the translation after the SWP?
Arminden (
talk)
01:17, 19 February 2021 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
@
Arminden: do you have a sense re when the Modern Hebrew name was first invented for this place? This 1958 map still shows only the Arabic name. In STERN, E. (1978).
EXCAVATIONS AT TEL MEVORAKH (1973-1976). Qedem, 9, III-105 the names Tel Tanninim and Tel Malat were used in parallel.
The new river name seems to have been given first, presumably
by the 1951 committee which focused on geographical features.
@
Onceinawhile: I have no idea. Your guess sounds logical, but I don't have a clue. I Google-translated the Hebrew WP article and tried to open their sources, too. The 1975 date is from there, but the probable source is a dead link. The 2004 excavation they mention is taken from a
Hadashot post titled "Tel Tanninim: Final Report", which is about a segment of the Lower-level Aqueduct to Caesarea, somewhere west of Jisr, but it's not at all clear if it even has anything to do with the tell; I'd say not, because the aqueduct segment has been dug into bedrock, and a tell... is a tell, rising above bedrock. Now I've compared their
map showing the excavation location, with the
Google Maps location of the tell, and it looks c. 200m further inland from the tell. So the 2004 date is probably unrelated to the tell, making me skeptical about 1975, as well. Btw, if you want to put back in "Hebraization", I'm taking back my reservations. It's on the tendentious side, I'm familiar with a similar phenomenon from Transylvania, where every ethnolingual group made up their own names, first and foremost because you want to be able to pronounce and relate to the places around you. But whatever. There are clear cases of obvious top-down, government-prescribed appropriation through language; this one looks more logical and organic, but boundaries are fluid. Cheers,
Arminden (
talk)
00:26, 19 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Arminden thanks for this. I agree that doesn’t seem to be the same excavation. I don’t propose to put back the Hebraization wording (or an improved form of the same, as your point re Greek was right) as I don’t have a source.
The core point that I think this article should make clear, assuming sources confirm it, is that the Greek came first, the connection to the “salt tower” is based on [?], and the current name is new. It’s quite unusual that a single place has three/four entirely different groups of names.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
00:59, 19 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi
Onceinawhile, yes, a bit more names than usual, but quite logical. Crocodiles are quite a conspicuous thing. The Crusader tower too. And salting fish or other meats using sea salt on the coast was common since at least the Neolithic(see
Ashkelon#Neolithic period). The weird part is the mortar, that I can't figure out. Did anyone confirm the translation after the SWP?
Arminden (
talk)
01:17, 19 February 2021 (UTC)reply