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This is a ridiculous notion- Ancient India got nothing to do with republic of India- there is no definition of ancient India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.8.76 ( talk) 21:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Everybody on the talk page including editors:
1. "Solution for dispute over banner under which this article has build" : Consider one thing that it don't matter weather the page is created under Pakistan or India banner. Look, the problem of conflict between patriotic feeling is a common thing. From the both side (India and Pakistan), we get emotion when the matter came upon our countries pride and name. We all know that the Wikipedia solely work for knowledge. Why we're fighting on names. If all of us stands on moon and look our earth from space, no one can tell that from where India's or Pakistan's territory starts or end. You all know that the politician and people of British India feel shame to use there mind and divide India into two part. Everybody knows that the soil of Pakistan never belongs to it at, like soil of India never belongs to it. The soil belongs to humans and dictator's and sometime hack of some Majesty. I apologise form my rude language but you can think about it.
2. "Solution on disputer over the recognition of Takshashila/Taxila as University" : India was a country ancient, great, nice people have there faith in knowledge and science from Ancient time when Europeans starting to build a new social structure. Nalanda and Takshashila/Taxila University were center for learning and education only, on which we are making cold war like politicians. I read all the arguments on every dispute and it's look like Mr. Flower&flower don't like to assume Takshashila/Taxila's center of education as a University. I have only one question to Mr. Flower&flower that what's the problem in accepting Takshashila/Taxila's center of education as University. Should U.N.O. have to establish a INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY GRANT COMMITTION to recognise all ancient center of education as University. A University is a place where place create something, develop something, think of the science and art. Tell me, does it matters if you accept a great ancient place education as University.
3. "Solution on dispute over name of place" : Everybody, do a favour with language and don't dispute over it. People of West are call Takshashila as Taxila because it is easy for them to pronounce it and it is well know name for them too. Can you expect three present our Western brothers/sisters to pronounce Takshashila correctly. Nah! It will be great trouble for them to do so. Furthermore little kid of 12 year have his point but dear kid, as you live in London, you know how many people spell even your true name correctly. Even they shorten your name to avoid mis-spell of your name. India can spell english and sanskrit correctly because of there skill in spelling word's as European have great skill over singing songs. So, don't get too much emotional on the matter of language. We Indian's also change European names according to our language, for example, we spell "Kaahira" rather than it's European name Cario. There are many other example's like British-Britaani, Egypt-Mishr, America-Aamreeka, China-Cheen, and etc. The list will never last I think. Kid aged 12 year, I don't know your name but I know you're very patriotic and missing your motherland very much. Carry on that proud feeling and contribute in Wikipedia by making articles in Hindi. Everyone must have to know about the greatness of Hindi and our other Indian languages.
A Word to all Wikipedia's reader's
You all know that how much arguments already done over Pakistan and India. It make a feeling that we're different person's. I don't like the concept of Global Harmony because it's more like a measure to avoid war created by us. Think about our land if we reunite under the same name Ashoka use for his motherland. There's feeling of brotherhood even in the name of Hindu-staan and Paki-istaan. Politician do there work but we people are the only way to reunite India. Some people can say 'how is this possible, India and Pakistaan are seperate countries', but, don't forget that in 1947 our politician are too close to cancel the partition. If they agreed to do so then there might be two boundrise got erased from the face of the world (Not India, Pakistaan and Bangladesh but only India/Hindutaan. Furthermore less troble and less terrorism). Shivwithshivangi ( talk) 00:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)shivwithshivangi Shivwithshivangi ( talk) 00:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have edited the Early Historic section which deals with the earliest occupation at Taxila. Previously, it was stated that Bhir mound represented the earliest occupation. However, in light of the recovery of red burnished wares (or 'soapy red ware') from the surface of the Hathial area by F.R. Allchin (1982, in Antiquity), it is possible that yet earlier occupational evidence is to be found here. B. Allchin and F.R. Allchin state the following:
"Recent discoveries by the Cambridge-Pakistan team at Taxila have revealed the existence of an earlier settlement of considerable size in the Hathial area adjacent to the Bhir mound. Here the red burnished ware and accompanying materials have shown not only close correspondence with those of Charsada [sic], but even more striking affinities with the pottery and material culture of the latter phase of the Gandharan graves at Swat" (1982, 314).
According to Dittmann's chronology, Swat V, mainly coincident with the burnished red ware (according to Vogelsang, 1988, 110), is dated to between c. 1400-800 (Dittmann, 1984, Table 5).
Therefore, Dittmann (1984), Vogelsang (1988) and others (Coningham et al, 2007) have confirmed the early date for burnished red ware in NWFP, linking it with the Swat V sequence which suggests a date of at least c. 900 BCE. I would say that a general consensus concerns the earlier dating of these north-west sites, representing a pretty major reformulation of Mortimer Wheeler's and John Marshall's original hypotheses in which urbanism was a 6th century Achaemenid 'gift' to India. I've put this in some detail so that my argument can be disputed, and, in order to anticipate some arguments, the surface sherds collected by Allchin in 1982 have no secure in situ provenience. However, I find it hard to believe that ceramics that are earlier than the 6th century BCE would somehow find their way onto site like this. Dune Sherban ( talk) 01:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
To say that taxila has been a place of Hindu learning is to mock history. I was born in the city and am well versed in the history of the city. I would request the contributor to substantiate their claim.
Hindu word itself came after Arabic warriors came in India. The city and its culture was flourishing long before that so one can not relate the culture or city with Hinduism. In fact current Hindu belief is a lot deviated from the original Vedic culture.
“ | (1) Extract from a letter of 22 October 1944, from Prof. F.W. Thomas, C.I.E., M.A., Ph.D., F.B.A. I have never supposed that these 'Universities' were anything but organised groups of independent teachers, such as you describe, without common buildings or action....Real Universities, with colleges (sc. monasteries) and endowments were created by Buddhism. These, of course, Nālandā, Vikramaśīla, etc., were primarily religious and sectarian, and the students and teachers were monks or aspirants to monkhood. But that, as we know from Hiuen-tsang and I-tsing, did not preclude a keen interest in general studies, literary, scientific, and philosophic, including even subjects specially Brahmanic, such as the Veda. In numbers and fame and in splendid buildings and rich endowments these were, of course, great institutions, but they do not belong to the early centuries A.D. In Central Asia and China the Buddhists usually founded pairs of (real) colleges, one for religion and doctrine (dharma), the other for contemplative philosophy (dhyāna). These were about contemporaneous with Nālandā. (2) From Education in Ancient India (1934) by Prof. Altekar, pp. 79–80. In ancient India for several centuries the relations between the teacher and the student were direct, i.e. not through any institution. Buddhism had its own Sanghas or monasteries, which developed into education institutions in the course of a few centuries; but, as far as Hinduism is concerned, we do not so far find any regular education organisations or institutions till about the beginning of the ninth century A.D. For centuries Hindu teachers like Hindu Sanyāsins had no organised institutions. We come across several Jātaka stories about the students and teachers of Takshaśilā, but not a single episode even remotely suggests that the different 'world renowned' teachers living in that city belonged to a particular college or university of the modern type. Marshall, John [1951] (1975). Taxila. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. |
” |
“ | It may be observed at the outset that Taxila did not possess any colleges or university in the modern sense of the term. It was simply a centre of education. It had many famous teachers to whom hundreds of students flocked for higher education from all parts of northern India. But these teachers were not members of any institutions like professors in a modern college, nor were they teaching any courses prescribed by any central body like a modern university. Every teacher, assisted by his advanced students, formed an institution by himself. He admitted as many students as he liked. He taught what his students were anxious to learn. Students terminated their courses according to their individual convenience. There were no degree examinations, and therefore no degrees or diplomas. Altekar, Anant Sadashiv [1934] (1965). Education in Ancient India, Sixth Edition, Revised & Enlarged, Varanasi: Nand Kishore & Bros. |
” |
Cite cop is vandalizing the site, editing and deleting referenced material sep3, 2006
CiteCop is making damn well sure that sources cited verify the text in question.
CiteCop
23:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The source cited in "Early Hindu" refrence is encyclopedia britannica which says that Kautilya was a "Hindu" statesman and a teacher at "taxila" so it was associated with brahminism and early hindu learning before, during and after the reign of Nandas(the dynasty that was defeated by chandragupta with the help of kautilya, who in turn was avenging the fact that he was exiled from Magadha by the Nandas, and spent most of that time at Taxila) All the stupas excavated at Taxila are from either during the later years of Ashoka's reign(two generations after chandragupta) or from a period after that, as is clear from the unesco refrence cited by you. The only religion prevelant before that was hinduism. Taxila was a centre of learning during that period as is clear fron the britannica and Ayurveda(charaka) refrences. We cannont call them Vedic because the late vedic period ended long before Kautilya and Panini lived. Scholars associated with Taxila lived after the 7th century B.C. If we are going to use contemporary terms like Buddhist to describe the Ashoka and Kushan periods, then we have to use Early Hindu(used by most historians to describe this period) for the period prior to that. Cite cop you should be banned for deleting refrenced material your own UNESCO refrence doesn't even use the term buddhist centre of learning but we are all smart enough to know that a stupa is a buddhist monument. Aparently Cite cop you don't know that Hindu statesman(kautilya), ayurvedic scholar(charaka) and sanskrit grammarian(panini) means they were Hindu gentlemen or brahmins to be precise. Or do you think they were all Buddhists???
So now the question is why did you delete those refrences and in addition to that you also deleted the words "Early Hindu"(since charaka, panini and kautilya etc. lived after the late vedic period and the epic age)???????? They pretty well expain that these gentlemen were "Hindu" statesmen or Brahmin scholars........i could cite hundereds of history books published during the last century with refrences that say exactly the same thing. I am not a Hindu nor do i have any association with Taxila but as a student of history the ignorance of people like you is really disturbing.
So Cite Cop, is this another attempt at vandalism or not??? Sept 4, 2006
Why is the image at the top of the page cover the entire width of the page? This is fairly nonstandard. -- Whiteknox 20:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Fouler&Fouler, what proof do you have that Sanskrit was used by the ancient people of Taxila? I will accept the script if you provide a non-Indian and unbiased neutral proof for its use by the ancient people of Taxila. (and also provide script for some language Pali or whatever the third language is) Szhaider 04:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Szhaider, The Sanskrit script at the top of the article is relevant. Sanskrit and Pali/Prakrit were both languages used in the region for 2000 years. See: Peoples and Languages of Pre-Islamic Indus Valley by Tariq Rahman. Here is the first few sentences from the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Taxila:
“ | Sanskrit Takshashila ancient city of northwestern Pakistan, the ruins of which are about 22 miles (35 km) northwest of Rawalpindi. Its prosperity in ancient times resulted from its position at the junction of three great trade routes: one from eastern India described by a Greek writer, Megasthenes, as the “Royal Highway,” the second from western Asia, and the third from Kashmir and Central Asia. | ” |
In Sanskrit "shila" means rock; therefore, the name of the city means "(King) Taksha's rock." Furthermore, Taxila is mentioned in both the Sanskrit epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. Here is the Encyclopaedia Britannica article once again:
“ | Taxila is known from references in Indian and Greco-Roman literary sources and from the accounts of two Chinese Buddhist pilgrims, Faxian and Xuanzang. Literally meaning “City of Cut-Stone” or “Rock of Taksha,” Takshashila (rendered by Greek writers as Taxila) was founded, according to the Indian epic Ramayana, by Bharata, younger brother of Rama, an incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu. The city was named for Bharata's son, Taksha, its first ruler. The great Indian epic Mahabharata was, according to tradition, first recited at Taxila at the great snake sacrifice of King Janamejaya, one of the heroes of the story. Buddhist literature, especially the Jataka, mentions it as the capital of the kingdom of Gandhara and as a great centre of learning. | ” |
So the inclusion of the Sanskrit script in entirely relevant. I am not someone who compulsively asks for Sanskrit scripts in Pakistan related articles. See the Talk:Harappa, where I ask for the Sanskrit to be removed. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The irony of ironies here is that people who now have a problem with sanskrit and ancient vedic religion and its connection to Taxila or Pakistan, are either unaware of or conveniently forget that the greatest Sanskrit grammarian a brahmin to ever have lived, Panini was born not far from today's Taxila in Attock district, and was a prominent personality associated with Taxila, a fact well acknowledged by every credible historian including Pakistani historians---Anon
Why do people feel the need to add text that is plainly not true? Hartmut Scharfe's Education in Ancient India was cited as mentioning Taxila to be the world's oldest university. I read through the relevant pages of Scharfe's book. Nowhere does he call Taxila a university, let alone the world's oldest! He is very careful to only refer to it as a center of learning. Here is what he says:
“ | The earliest reports about instructional institutions that we have refer to the city of Taxila, as the Greeks called it, corresponding to Sanskrit Taksasila (Panini IV 3 93) and Pali Takkasila in Gandhara that contained several monasteries (vihara), all, it seems, involved in teaching. The archaeological site is quite large; but no large lecture halls or dormitories have been discovered. By all indications instructions in these early schools and monasteries was conducted still in an individualistic fashion, not totally unlike the acarya-kula-system, or perhaps more like in an asrama. Independent teachers or individual monks taught single individuals or small groups of students, even if they were part of a larger monastic institution, and perhaps even supervised by the monastic community at large. It was probably another matter when the physician Jivaka Komarabhacca from Rajagaha (Rajagrha) is said to have received his medical training over seven years from his teacher at Takkasila, because there is no indication that the teacher was a monk or even affiliated with a monastery; but his report, too, shows the city as a center of higher learning at an early time....
We have to be extremely cautious in dealing with the literary evidence, because much of the information offered in the secondary literature on Taxila is derived from Jataka prose that was only fixed in Ceylon several centuries after the events that it purports to describe, probably some time after Buddhaghosa, i.e. around A. D. 500. Since the data gleaned from the Jatakas probably represent more the imagination of a late commentator than a tradition of factual knowledge, it will be best to neglect these tales and to rely on more authentic sources. We may accept, though, that Taxila was a well known as a center for higher studies in the Buddhist tradition, as it is mentioned again and again. |
” |
It's one thing to make a good faith mistake, but it's another to cite the Scharfe's book for a claim, when there is no evidence for it in this source. That is falsification, plain and simple! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it was a university. I thought it would be pertinent to produce some sources which include the following:-
Many regards, Freedom skies| talk 06:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
No it is not. Your references are not reliable. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica: [1]
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 07:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Your references are not reliable.
This personal opinion could not be more incorrect. The citations as such, are very reliable. If you're attempting to make a case stating that The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries (part 3:India) by Edward Bradby. is unreliable then you're mistaken. Also, the "It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters" is misrepresented. The structural differences between universites of the world can be gauged by the "Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries."
Having said that, I'm on a Wikibreak and have prior commitments on Wikipedia itself when I return. I'll not pursue this presently due to time constraints. Regards,
Freedom skies| talk 15:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Note This page was previously named Takshashila University. The first five sections of this talk page were copied from that page, and provide the rationale for the name change. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Aren't these "university's" in India more like the Greek " Lyceum" or " Academy"? It seems a bit irresponsible and far-fetched to call them a university. Did they have an established curriculum, building complexes, paid professors? The Europeans don't really begin to call them universities until they incorporate as a university and have paid professors... Stevenmitchell 06:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
Does that sound like a European monastery to you? Where students or pupils stayed at someone's house and paid for a room to learn. Doesn't sound like the production facility of a monastery. I think monasteries were a bit flatter in their hierarchy. It may be the Britannica's analogy but it sounds very confusing.
The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks seems a bit ambiguous. I would think it would be better if we could get a more effective description, rather than one as speculative.
Regards, Steve Stevenmitchell 13:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the incorrect claim that Guinness Book recognizes Taxila as the world's oldest university. The Guinness book recognizes a university in Morrocco, see here, as the world's oldest. As I have mentioned above, Taxila was a center of learning, but (as Britannica says as well) it was not a university in the usual sense of the word. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is this page even here (i.e. in Wikipedia)? The Taxila page is more extensive and has everything here and more. This page should simply be deleted, as there is not one sentence in it that is not already in the Taxila page. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Why do people feel the need to add text that is plainly not true? The text mentioned that the Guinness book considered Taxila to be the world's oldest university. That, however, is not true. Next, another reference, Hartmut Scharfe's Education in Ancient India was cited as mentioning Taxila to be the world's oldest university. I read through the relevant pages of Scharfe's book. Nowhere does he call Taxila a university, let alone the world's oldest! He is very careful to only refer to it as a center of learning. Here is what he says:
“ | The earliest reports about instructional institutions that we have refer to the city of Taxila, as the Greeks called it, corresponding to Sanskrit Taksasila (Panini IV 3 93) and Pali Takkasila in Gandhara that contained several monasteries (vihara), all, it seems, involved in teaching. The archaeological site is quite large; but no large lecture halls or dormitories have been discovered. By all indications instructions in these early schools and monasteries was conducted still in an individualistic fashion, not totally unlike the acarya-kula-system, or perhaps more like in an asrama. Independent teachers or individual monks taught single individuals or small groups of students, even if they were part of a larger monastic institution, and perhaps even supervised by the monastic community at large. It was probably another matter when the physician Jivaka Komarabhacca from Rajagaha (Rajagrha) is said to have received his medical training over seven years from his teacher at Takkasila, because there is no indication that the teacher was a monk or even affiliated with a monastery; but his report, too, shows the city as a center of higher learning at an early time....
We have to be extremely cautious in dealing with the literary evidence, because much of the information offered in the secondary literature on Taxila is derived from Jataka prose that was only fixed in Ceylon several centuries after the events that it purports to describe, probably some time after Buddhaghosa, i.e. around A. D. 500. Since the data gleaned from the Jatakas probably represent more the imagination of a late commentator than a tradition of factual knowledge, it will be best to neglect these tales and to rely on more authentic sources. We may accept, though, that Taxila was a well known as a center for higher studies in the Buddhist tradition, as it is mentioned again and again. |
” |
It's one thing to make a good faith mistake, but it's another to deliberately cite the Guinness Book or Scharfe's book for a claim, when there is no evidence for it in these sources. That is falsification, plain and simple! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The UNESCO World Heritage List brief description describes Taxila as:
“ | From the ancient Neolithic tumulus of Saraikala to the ramparts of Sirkap (2nd century B.C.) and the city of Sirsukh (1st century A.D.), Taxila illustrates the different stages in the development of a city on the Indus that was alternately influenced by Persia, Greece and Central Asia and which, from the 5th century B.C. to the 2nd century A.D., was an important Buddhist centre of learning. | ” |
Again, as I have repeatedly said above, no mention is made of a university. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the name of the page. The evidence that Taxila was not a university was overwhelming. The new name is more accurate. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is pointless in my opinion. The Taxila article already covers pretty much everything mentioned here. Does anyone else agree that this article should be deleted? Jagged 85 22:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As I have said before, Taxila was not a university in the modern sense of the word. I checked one of the references The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries. I couldn't find any references to Taxila as a "university." Taxila according to the search is on page 209, the word "university" is nowhere on that page.
Similarly, Radha Kumud Mookerji (Ancient Indian Education: Brahmanical and Buddhist) calls Taxila a centre of learning and uses the word "university" only as an example. In Chapter 11, titled "Universities," Taxila is not in that list: I. Nalanda, II. Valabhi, ... etc. So, please stop pushing this. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you may be referring to this sentence (Mookerji, page 479):
However, this sentence is more spefific (Mookerji, page 478):
Jagged 85 14:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Why should your interpretion be given any more weight than my interpretation? It's very clear to me that Mookerji does consider Taxila to be like a university. If you don't agree, then I suggest it's best we actually quote it so that readers can interpret it themselves (which is what I was doing). Either way, there are a number of other scholars who do consider Taxila to be a university, just as there are others who do not consider it a university. In any case, I think it would be more reasonable to present both sides of the argument and highlight the fact that there is a disagreement among scholars about whether Taxila should be considered a university. Jagged 85 19:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
These sources refer to Taxila as a university.
An official government portal, a peer reviewed journal and a respectable book.
Freedom skies| talk 12:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University
Institutions in Fourteen Countries. Ed. by EDWARD BRADBY London: Oxford University Press, 1939. Pp. vii+332. $3.50.) This little supplement to Kotschnig's The University in a Changing World (1932) might better have been entitled "The European University outside Europe," although its omission of South and Central American institutions would belie even that title. As it stands, the book presents magazine-length accounts of the history, constitution, aims, and "problems" of Europeanfathered centers of higher education in the United States (78 pages), Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India, China, Japan, the Dutch East Indies, the Arab-Moslem world, Turkey, Iran, and Palestine. For the sociologist the main interest in these all too historical-journalistic accounts perhaps lies in the tracing out of the lines of diffusion by which Western European scientific culture, now, it may be, dying at its core, has pierced its way into the heart of such ancient traditionalistic cultures as the Hindu, Chinese, Moslem, and Hebrew. Many of the universities described in this book are the spearheads of this movement, at once nationalistic and imperialistic. To cite a remark made by Josef Goebbels in another connection, they "provide the intellectual substructure for political power." In view of the present centrifugal tendency of European civilization, however, the white man's burden may become the white man's boon. The universities "outside Europe" may soon be the only universities "Europe" has. E. Y. HARTSHORNE, Harvard University |
” |
Where is Taxila mentioned in the review? As for the book itself, where is "Taxila university" mentioned there? "Taxila is mentioned on page 209, but there is no "university" mentioned there. Jagged85 and Freedom Skies, from your citations, it is clear that you don't have a very good idea of what a reliable reference is. Do you guys really want to take me on and go for an RfC? I am busy right now with other stuff, but when I find more time, I will quote from the other encyclopedias (Encarta and Columbia) and compare what they say about Taxila vs. Nalanda (which really was more worthy of the title "University"). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The content is on page 209.
In response to the very heated from your citations, it is clear that you don't have a very good idea of what a reliable reference is I would call for calming down and reading the following citations:-
When the men of Alexander the great came to Taxila in India in the fourth century BC they found a university there the like of which had not been seen in Greece, a university which taught the three Vedas and the eighteen accomplishments and was still existing when the Chinese pilgrim Fa-Hsien went there about AD 400. -- Within the Four Seas: The Dialogue of East and West By Joseph Needham. Published 2004. Routledge. ISBN 0415361664
The ancient university city of Taxila, on the Indian side of the Indus, lay within the reach of Peshawar. -- History of Indian and Indonesian Art 1927 By Ananda Kentish Coomaraswamy. Published 2003. Kessinger Publishing. ISBN 0766158012
Arab travellers and their teachers came in large numbers to the northern university of Takshashila or Taxila, which was especially famous for medicine. -- Indo-West Asian Relations: The Nehru Era By Najma Heptulla. Published 1991. Allied Publishers
Early biblical references provide accounts of travelling scholars, and interlectual education can be traced to the 272-22 BC reign of Ashoka the great and the establishment of the University of Taxila in Asia minor. -- The Psychology of Culture Shock By Colleen A. Ward, Stephen Bochner, Adrian Furnham. Published 2001. Routledge. ISBN 0415162343
In the early centuries the centre of Buddhist scholarship was the University of Taxila (near the present city of Islamabad) -- A History of India By Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund. Published 2004. Routledge. ISBN 0415329191
[the Buddhist university of] Taxila, beyond the Gupta boundaries, [was] in the fifth century devastated by the Huns -- Scholarship and the Gypsy Struggle: commitment in Romani studies. Donald Kenrick. Published 2000. University of Hertfordshire Press. ISBN 1902806018
Foreign minister Zulfifar Ali Bhutto arranged for the secretary general to take time out to visit Taxila, seat of the oldest Buddhist university in the world. -- United Nations: the first fifty years By Stanley Meisler. Published 1995. Atlantic Monthly Press. ISBN 0871136562
Taxila university , which is the oldest in the world, has been in existence even before the time of the Buddha and before the occupation of the Taxila valley by the Achaemanid rulers in 6th- 5th century B.C. Probably in the period of the (7th century B.C.) philosophers gathered here to have their own schools of thought and imparted instructions. -- Official Portal of the Government of Pakistan (Pakistani Heritage)
The history of international educational exchange can be traced to the University of Taxila (Taxshashila) in ancient India. -- Indian Education Abstracts By India Ministry of Education, India Central Secretariat Library
The Buddhist influences in northern Pakistan are evident in elaborate buildings at Julian, the Buddhist hill town outside the ruins of Taxila, where a bustling university existed in ancient times to train monks -- Culture And Customs of Pakistan By Iftikhar Haider Malik. Published 2005. Greenwood Press. ISBN 031333126X
Freedom skies| talk 18:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Please don't add any responses or references in this section. I am collecting my own references here. Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
From History of Education article:
“ | These forces produced revolutionary changes in education. Schools were established in growing towns, and even day scholars were admitted. Studies were chosen freely and not according to caste. Taxila had already acquired an international reputation in the 6th century BC as a centre of advanced studies and now improved upon it. It did not possess any college or university in the modern sense of the term, but it was a great centre of learning with a number of famous teachers, each having a school of his own. | ” |
From History of Education article:
“ | The 500 years from the 4th century AD to the close of the 8th, under the Guptas and Harsha and their successors, is a remarkable period in Indian history. It was the age of the universities of Nalanda and Valabhi and of the rise of Indian sciences, mathematics, and astronomy. The university at Nalanda housed a population of several thousand teachers and students, who were maintained out of the revenues from more than 100 villages. Because of its fame, Nalanda attracted students from abroad, but the admission test was so strict that only two or three out of 10 attained admission. | ” |
From "Taxila" article:
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
From "Nalanda" article:
“ | celebrated Buddhist monastic centre, often spoken of as a university, southwest of Bihar city in northern Bihar state, India. Nalanda's traditional history dates to the time of the Buddha (6th–5th centuries BC) and Mahavira, the founder of the Jaina religion. According to a later Tibetan source, Nagarjuna, the 2nd–3rd-century AD Buddhist philosopher, began his studies there. Extensive excavations carried out by the Archaeological Survey of India indicate, however, that the foundation of the monasteries belongs to the Gupta period (5th century AD)... | ” |
From Taxila article:
“ | Taxila was also a great center for learning, where the study of the Vedas, the Buddhist sutras, and the sciences flourished, especially during the Kushāna period (1st to 3rd century ad). It declined in importance after the coming of the White Huns in the 5th century. | ” |
From Nalanda article:
“ | Nalanda, Bihār State, India, an ancient seat of learning, probably founded in the 5th century AD. It flourished until the 12th century and at its height had 2000 teachers and 10,000 students. Teachings included the study of the Buddhist scriptures of both the Mahayana and Theravada schools, the Vedas, philosophy, mathematics, logic, theology, and medicine. Attendance was free, since the university was supported by revenue and food donations collected from local villages.... The site now lies in ruins, but excavation work has revealed a complex of lecture halls, dormitories, gardens, and many stupas, in addition to stone images of the Buddha. | ” |
From Taxila article:
“ | archaeological site of three successive cities, near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There between the 7th cent. B.C. and the 7th cent. A.D. was a flourishing city, famous as an ancient seat of learning. It was occupied (326 B.C.) by Alexander the Great, became prosperous under the empire of Asoka, and was overrun (c.1st–2d cent. A.D.) by the Kushans. It was a center of Buddhist studies and was visited in the 7th cent. by Hsüan-tsang. | ” |
From Nalanda article:
“ | Buddhist monastic center in what is now Baragaon, Bihar state, E central India. Often referred to as a university, Nalanda was, from the 4th to the 12 cent. A.D., the most renowned center of Buddhist learning in India. There are extensive ruins of stupas, monasteries, and temples. | ” |
What does taxila have to do with Pakistant, no disrespect to pakistan, but when taxila was built there was no taxila, this should be listed under WikiProject Pakistan. It's insulting to all indians, People who say this is isnt a hindu university are crazy!! It was build in Hindu india, everything during the time of its building was Hindu, the size of this article doesent do it justice, can we call it Takshashila like it was named then, not taxila... You ca shorten most stuff, but not everying. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.13.72.99 ( talk • contribs). at 17:25, 17 June 2007
If they changed India to Bharat Varsh that would simply be correct, India is incorrect, yet we live with it. Im just 12, i have no idea about this Naland(a=wrong), Bodh Gaya... For the last time, Takshashila was build in India, not in what we now as pakistan. How can my above comment interpret as "Pakistan doesn't have too many Hindus," is beyond me. It IS insulting to indians, i am indian, i find it insulting that the first university in the world, a indian one is listed under a pakistani project, pakistan has given NOTHING to the world, India has been the base for most of the worlds knowledge yet the west can accept this(i live in london) Greece is in Europe and India is in Asia, greek people have no right as to the name or ANYTHING of india. I'm not sure if its what you said but if you did i just want to say, Takshashila is NOT ONE BIT A PLACE OF BUDDHIST LEARNING. It has no religious strings. Its a university, a place to learn, religion could be a subject, its not a mandir or monastrey, a universtiy, school.
P.S I dont live in india, i live in london the above anon is me 82.13.72.99 17:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Patriotic
so this means im right??? YEAH!!
82.13.72.99
15:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan (i am patriotic, but this name is better)
No, it doesn't mean that, but just that I've been busy. I think it is very commendable that you as a 12-year old are reading and contributing to Wikipedia, but you also seem to have collected a lot of biases and prejudices for your age. I will post some age-appropriate reading (for young teenagers) here that will help you to better understand prejudice. Meanwhile keep reading and don't vandalize the Taxila page, which you seemed to have done twice already. Regards and all the best, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I shouldntve done that..woopsy... But i s'pose up to a certain extent you are right, i am sort of biased but i say this all because i think its unjust how many people dont seem to realise what India has done, not only that, they dont even acknowledge the facts, they twist the truth, like it wasn't a university, but a place of learning. That makes no sense, a place of learning and a university is exactly the same thing. One user for emaxple, vi5in is racist. He/she has some biased thoughts on ram's bridge, not adams bridge. goodbye thank you please...P.S im on different IP because this is my dads laptop
82.13.72.99 10:36, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan
In that day, do you think there were primary schools, secodarys schools, college then university, i doubt it.
82.13.72.99
17:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan
Yes! In the same way they didn't have any universities. ( [[User:Giani g|Giani g]] 18:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC))
Well they didnt. ur wrong!!!! 82.13.72.99 20:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan .
im sick of these low life indians who think they own south asia and wikipedia get to your own indian pages and edit them and dont spread your jelous filled filth in pakistani articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.129.53 ( talk) 20:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have left a message on the Wikipedia:Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard requesting any assistance with the current content dispute in this article. Knowledgeum ( talk) 19:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
displaying the usaul islamophobic attitudes editors on this article have totally rubished pakistani history and masked it with so called anceint india this is a typical example of indians being given the favour and pakistanis ignored there was no such thing as india before 1947 is the editors cannot accept this simple fact then you are not fit to edit articles as you are prone to pro india and anti pakistan i urge western editors to drop there racist culture and accept facts about pakistan and its anceint history this is not nazi germany this is the modern world first jews now muslims europeans must be more neautral.
can any non indian and any no pro indians help with this article its being used as a promotion for india even though taxila is pakistan not india get over it people india has done nothing for pakistan and is not part of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.178.203 ( talk) 17:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eilangko ( talk • contribs) 22:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Try and solve once for all with a RFC request to solve the current content dispute. Knowledgeum ( talk) 17:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
India is the name given by the white europeans to a nation which they occupied in the 18th century before then india was nothing but a vast expanse of land ruled by moghuls and various other kingdoms india has hundreds of names Hindustan Bharat and several others so it is unfair and offensive to label pakistan soil as indian as india came into being in 1947 before then taxila was just taxila in punjab india was nothing and has nothing to do with Pakistans history or taxila it is offensive to state pakistans land as indian stop the bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.69.108 ( talk) 13:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
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I don't think the word Takshashila came from Ramayana as Takshashila pre-dates Ramayana's time period (400 BCE - 200 CE as per wikipedia). I put Ramayana to be around 250 BCE. However, Taxila has existed in the 5-th/6-th century BCE. It kind of defies logic for a name that has been taken from a book to appear before the text was actually written. Therefore it should be removed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eilangko ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC) WHAT!!! Ramayana dates 250 BCE? dude, you have got a serioes problem with dates. Its not about the text ramyana, its about the occurence of the events of ramayana. Before stating its actual occurence period, i would like to tell that mahabharata occured in the time around 600 BCE, which way after ramayana occured. you can chech this thing again from ikipedia, in which the article "mahajanapadas" i there, where the kuru/gandhara/anga states are described, the states in mahabharata. Ramayana occurered 100s of years before mahabharata. according to NASA, it was the period around 2500 BCE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.110.93.60 ( talk) 07:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The problem with Taxila's name in Sanskrit is that we nowadays use Devanagari to write Sanskrit, but Devanagari is much younger than the language itself and would not have been in use at the time of Taxila. Giving the name in Devanagari is thus an anachronism; we do better by just giving a romanization of the Sanskrit name. The script in use at the time of Taxila's heyday would probably have been Brahmi or one of its close descendants. Huon ( talk) 23:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be a piece of software turning Latin text into Brahmi here. https://sites.google.com/site/brahmiscript/ Could you try it Huon? I can't because I am running Mac OS but the software is written for Windows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.98.197.34 ( talk) 23:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Another problem is that current text has (without any supporting citation):
How can there be two "literal" translations?
Then, following one of the article's links to a Pakistani government site, you find:
So we have three different translations for the name. My inclination would be to delete the existing text and replace it with the third explanation. I already did that at at voy:Taxila, but might revert myself if discussion here reaches another conclusion. Pashley ( talk) 19:46, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I removed the devanagari and "literally" but resisted the temptation to change the claim on the origin of the name. Pashley ( talk) 18:27, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
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Why is this even here?
"Afghana or Avagana[32] (born ~ 1000 BC according to folklore[citation needed]) is considered by Indian and Pathan folklore a tribal chief or prince of Bani Israel (Israelite) origin and a progenitor of modern-day Pashtuns,[33][34][35][36][37] the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan and second largest in Pakistan. The ethnonym "Afghan" is believed to derive from his name."
I fail to see how this is even relevant to the political section history or this article in general. This falls under folklore, NOT history and does not belong in this article. I beleive this should be completely removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 11:41, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Why is this even here?
"Afghana or Avagana[32] (born ~ 1000 BC according to folklore[citation needed]) is considered by Indian and Pathan folklore a tribal chief or prince of Bani Israel (Israelite) origin and a progenitor of modern-day Pashtuns,[33][34][35][36][37] the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan and second largest in Pakistan. The ethnonym "Afghan" is believed to derive from his name." I fail to see how this is even relevant to the political section history or this article in general. This falls under folklore, NOT history and does not belong in this article. I beleive this should be completely removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 11:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Why is this even here?
"Afghana or Avagana[32] (born ~ 1000 BC according to folklore[citation needed]) is considered by Indian and Pathan folklore a tribal chief or prince of Bani Israel (Israelite) origin and a progenitor of modern-day Pashtuns,[33][34][35][36][37] the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan and second largest in Pakistan. The ethnonym "Afghan" is believed to derive from his name."
I fail to see how this is even relevant to the political section history or this article in general. This falls under folklore, NOT history and does not belong in this article. I beleive this should be completely removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 11:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
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Regarding edits made on June 1, 2017:
The fact that the Pali and Sanskrit names of the city has fallen out of favor is self-evident by the fact that we now only use the Greek recorded name for the modern city. Any reference to the modern city uses only the name "Taxila," and remember, this page is about the modern city of Taxila, not the ancient city of Taxila.
There are no articles regarding the modern city that refer to it as "Takshashila" aside from those of fringe groups online who refer to the city by its Sanskrit name for a variety of reasons. That is, no one ever refers to the city as "Takshashila, Pakistan" because the use of Takshashila has obviously fallen out of favor and is now unused. And let's not forget that this is a Pakistani city, and the only official name for this city is "Taxila." Therefore, the Greek-recorded name is now even the only official name, which again points to the fact that the city's Pali and Sanskrit names have fallen out of favor.
If this is controversial, please explain why. Have you found any reputable modern sources that have referred to Taxila, Pakistan (the subject of this page) as Takshashila or Takkasila? Of course not. Therefore it is obvious that the Greek recording Taxila is the only name still in use, and hence, the Pali and Sanskrit names must then have abandoned in favor of the Greek name. That is why it is self-evident. Willard84 ( talk) 20:46, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Regarding edits on June 1, 2017: ""It is common enough to be prominently listed as the alternate title in entries in Britannica, etc.. Please take this to talk if you disagree."
The name isn't commonly used, because the Encyclopedia Britannica article is the only article referring to the MODERN city that includes the Sanskrit name so prominently - the article you quoted, by the way, was written by "Baij Nath Puri." The UNESCO page on Taxila also omits the ancient name, as does any official page regarding the modern city.
The only cities with a description of something along the lines of "formerly known as" are those cities which have had a relatively recent name change, not a shift that occurred 2000 years ago. Hence, it makes sense to include Bombay on Mumbai's page, but doesn't make sense to include "formerly Tenochtitlán" on the Mexico City page, even though the city of Tenochtitlán was one of the pre-Columbian worlds most magnificent cities.
The ancient name is prominently included on pages referring to issues regarding the historic ruins. So pages regarding Hindu though/texts, ancient history, and art history will often include the Sanskrit name. But even thats not always the case, as the prominent Oriental Architecture database does not include the Sanskrit name here.
And again, this is a page not about the ancient city of Taxila, but instead the modern city of Taxila, Pakistan. Just as the page on London doesnt include "formerly Londinium", neither should the Taxila page include some ancient name from 2000 years ago that has almost no bearing at all on the modern city itself. Willard84 ( talk) 21:17, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
So, according to Willard84's statements on this talk page, this article is about the modern "city" of Taxila and not about the ancient city and world heritage site. Consequently, he has gone about restructuring the page so that the first infobox is now Infobox settlement and the World Heritage infobox has been shoved halfway down the page. Now, even though 90% of the article is about the ancient city, the lead has been amended to give importance to the modern settlement. However, in my opinion, the primary topic for this article is the ancient city and primacy should consequently be accorded to it. General references support this:
Taxila, Sanskrit Takshashila, ancient city of northwestern Pakistan, the ruins of which are about 22 miles (35 km) northwest of Rawalpindi. Its prosperity in ancient times resulted from its position at the junction of three great trade routes: one from eastern India, described by the Greek writer Megasthenes as the “Royal Highway”; the second from western Asia; and the third from Kashmir and Central Asia. When these routes ceased to be important, the city sank into insignificance and was finally destroyed by the Huns in the 5th century ce. Taxila was designated a UNESCO World Heritage site in 1980.
No mention of the modern settlement.
an archaeological site near Rawalpindi, Pakistan: ruins of three successive cities on the same site, dating from about the 7th century b.c. to about the 7th century a.d.; Buddhist center.
No mention of the modern settlement.
Ruins. The present name is the Greek version of the Sanskrit name Takṣaśilā ‘The Rock of Takṣa’. According to the …
Scholarly sources all talk about the ancient city as do the majority of Google search results. From what I can tell, the modern Pakistani settlement of Taxila is not a city at all and is, at best, a town and a minor one at that being only a short distance away from both Rawalpindi and Islamabad. I believe that the ancient city and heritage site should be the focus of this article and mention of the modern town relegated to a subsection perhaps linked to a separate article.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 12:34, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
You're the one changing the entire page's focus to an ancient city when the page even before my edits was clearly in reference to the modern city (e.g.: section on economy, modern educational institutions etc, please note that I'm reverting the lead and primary infobox to exactly what it was before you changed it to be about the town and not about the ancient city. This, IMO, is as per WP:BRD.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 20:21, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
which already has a page at Ancient Taxila!as you created the page yourself in the middle of this content dispute. For those watching, this spin-off article was previously named Ruins at Taxila and Willard84 had also begun redirecting links to Taxila to his new page.)-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 08:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Willard for supplying some information and thank you Cpt. Haddock for the response. I think we have established the following:
Therefore I think it would be reasonable to cover both ancient and modern Taxila in this article. There should be a good deal of emphasis on Taxila's history, including its historical name, since this represents the best-known part of Taxila, which people want information about. At the same time there is room for information about the modern city. Should such information start running too long, it could be forked off to another page ( Modern Taxila; Taxila, Pakistan; Economy of Taxila; or something else). (I notice that ancient Taxila also forks to sub-articles: Sirkap, Jinnan Wali Dheri, other articles found at Category:Taxila.) I would recommend including the information about modern Taxila in one main section, rather than having it confusingly interspersed as it is now. It seems that Cpt. Haddock is thinking along similar lines.
Willard, how does that sound? If you think that the outcome should be something different, what should it be, and why? Cheers, groupuscule ( talk) 14:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
A user intends to change the intro to a previous version which includes facts not typically included in lead paragraphs such as ekevation, and undue prominence of a centuries old name. Thoughts? Willard84 ( talk) 19:55, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Since there are so many issues with this page's name, what is wrong with making two pages: 'Taxila (ancient)' for this page, and 'Taxila (modern)' for the other? While most sources regarding ancient history imply "ancient" in front of the word "taxila," it doesn't detract from the fact that Taxila is also a decent sized modern city in Pakistan with its own cantonment. "Taxila" thus does not simply refer to ancient taxila alone. Willard84 ( talk) 06:18, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved DrStrauss talk 09:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Taxila →
Ancient Taxila –
"Ancient Taxila" refers to the ancient city of Takshashila which is referenced on this article, while "Taxila" can ALSO mean the modern city. Since the users here argue that this page is referring to the ANCIENT city of Taxila, I think the Idea of clarifying this page's topic by renaming it Ancient Taxila is a good idea in order to avoid confusion.
The current page should be renamed Ancient Taxila, while the modern city of Taxila's page should be entitled Taxila (modern) - a page I've already created in order to help clear confusion. (Please also note that the modern city is refered to only by the name Taxila as well. That is, it is not called anything like "New Taxila," "Modern Taxila," or "Taxila City," etc etc. It is just Taxila.)
Another good alternative would be to refer to this page as Taxila (ancient) to clarify that this is a page about the ancient city of Taxila. But both titles should be unambiguous. Allowing "Taxila" to refer only to the ancient ruined city from 2000 years ago completely neglects the sizeable present day city of the same name.
Given the fact that naming conventions can cause heated debates, it would be best if third-party and unbiased users could weigh in - that is, those of you who are not from South Asia might offer a better perspective, rather than a group of Pakistani editors outnumbering Indians, or vice versa.
Willard84 ( talk) 07:23, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The modern town of Taxila is 35 km from Islamabad. There might be an official system of classification of urban areas which might shed light on any official designation for the settlement.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 07:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
"Others do not consider it a university in the modern sense, in that the teachers living there may not have had official membership of particular colleges, and there did not seem to have existed purpose-built lecture halls and residential quarters in Taxila"
One source has been tagged for "page needed", [13] it is from 1966 and other source includes a quote from 1944. How about we entirely remove this? Unless one can find modern sources. Capitals00 ( talk) 00:20, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
The defining factor of this ancient city was the fact it was a center of learning for Vedic Hindu and Buddhist learning. This should be mentioned in the beginning sentence, as mentioned, this charastic is what makes this city unique from other "ancient city". This is also mentioned in multiple sources as a defining charastics. [1] [2] [3] [4]
I propose my revision be reinstated, which @ Cpt.a.haddock: has undone. If @ RegentsPark: can help solve this conflict between Cpt.a.haddock and I -- will be greatful. ( 63.143.226.184 ( talk) 22:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC))
References
Is it a sacred place for Buddhists or Jains — Preceding unsigned comment added by StLouis2 ( talk • contribs) 03:44, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is a ridiculous notion- Ancient India got nothing to do with republic of India- there is no definition of ancient India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.8.76 ( talk) 21:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Everybody on the talk page including editors:
1. "Solution for dispute over banner under which this article has build" : Consider one thing that it don't matter weather the page is created under Pakistan or India banner. Look, the problem of conflict between patriotic feeling is a common thing. From the both side (India and Pakistan), we get emotion when the matter came upon our countries pride and name. We all know that the Wikipedia solely work for knowledge. Why we're fighting on names. If all of us stands on moon and look our earth from space, no one can tell that from where India's or Pakistan's territory starts or end. You all know that the politician and people of British India feel shame to use there mind and divide India into two part. Everybody knows that the soil of Pakistan never belongs to it at, like soil of India never belongs to it. The soil belongs to humans and dictator's and sometime hack of some Majesty. I apologise form my rude language but you can think about it.
2. "Solution on disputer over the recognition of Takshashila/Taxila as University" : India was a country ancient, great, nice people have there faith in knowledge and science from Ancient time when Europeans starting to build a new social structure. Nalanda and Takshashila/Taxila University were center for learning and education only, on which we are making cold war like politicians. I read all the arguments on every dispute and it's look like Mr. Flower&flower don't like to assume Takshashila/Taxila's center of education as a University. I have only one question to Mr. Flower&flower that what's the problem in accepting Takshashila/Taxila's center of education as University. Should U.N.O. have to establish a INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY GRANT COMMITTION to recognise all ancient center of education as University. A University is a place where place create something, develop something, think of the science and art. Tell me, does it matters if you accept a great ancient place education as University.
3. "Solution on dispute over name of place" : Everybody, do a favour with language and don't dispute over it. People of West are call Takshashila as Taxila because it is easy for them to pronounce it and it is well know name for them too. Can you expect three present our Western brothers/sisters to pronounce Takshashila correctly. Nah! It will be great trouble for them to do so. Furthermore little kid of 12 year have his point but dear kid, as you live in London, you know how many people spell even your true name correctly. Even they shorten your name to avoid mis-spell of your name. India can spell english and sanskrit correctly because of there skill in spelling word's as European have great skill over singing songs. So, don't get too much emotional on the matter of language. We Indian's also change European names according to our language, for example, we spell "Kaahira" rather than it's European name Cario. There are many other example's like British-Britaani, Egypt-Mishr, America-Aamreeka, China-Cheen, and etc. The list will never last I think. Kid aged 12 year, I don't know your name but I know you're very patriotic and missing your motherland very much. Carry on that proud feeling and contribute in Wikipedia by making articles in Hindi. Everyone must have to know about the greatness of Hindi and our other Indian languages.
A Word to all Wikipedia's reader's
You all know that how much arguments already done over Pakistan and India. It make a feeling that we're different person's. I don't like the concept of Global Harmony because it's more like a measure to avoid war created by us. Think about our land if we reunite under the same name Ashoka use for his motherland. There's feeling of brotherhood even in the name of Hindu-staan and Paki-istaan. Politician do there work but we people are the only way to reunite India. Some people can say 'how is this possible, India and Pakistaan are seperate countries', but, don't forget that in 1947 our politician are too close to cancel the partition. If they agreed to do so then there might be two boundrise got erased from the face of the world (Not India, Pakistaan and Bangladesh but only India/Hindutaan. Furthermore less troble and less terrorism). Shivwithshivangi ( talk) 00:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)shivwithshivangi Shivwithshivangi ( talk) 00:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have edited the Early Historic section which deals with the earliest occupation at Taxila. Previously, it was stated that Bhir mound represented the earliest occupation. However, in light of the recovery of red burnished wares (or 'soapy red ware') from the surface of the Hathial area by F.R. Allchin (1982, in Antiquity), it is possible that yet earlier occupational evidence is to be found here. B. Allchin and F.R. Allchin state the following:
"Recent discoveries by the Cambridge-Pakistan team at Taxila have revealed the existence of an earlier settlement of considerable size in the Hathial area adjacent to the Bhir mound. Here the red burnished ware and accompanying materials have shown not only close correspondence with those of Charsada [sic], but even more striking affinities with the pottery and material culture of the latter phase of the Gandharan graves at Swat" (1982, 314).
According to Dittmann's chronology, Swat V, mainly coincident with the burnished red ware (according to Vogelsang, 1988, 110), is dated to between c. 1400-800 (Dittmann, 1984, Table 5).
Therefore, Dittmann (1984), Vogelsang (1988) and others (Coningham et al, 2007) have confirmed the early date for burnished red ware in NWFP, linking it with the Swat V sequence which suggests a date of at least c. 900 BCE. I would say that a general consensus concerns the earlier dating of these north-west sites, representing a pretty major reformulation of Mortimer Wheeler's and John Marshall's original hypotheses in which urbanism was a 6th century Achaemenid 'gift' to India. I've put this in some detail so that my argument can be disputed, and, in order to anticipate some arguments, the surface sherds collected by Allchin in 1982 have no secure in situ provenience. However, I find it hard to believe that ceramics that are earlier than the 6th century BCE would somehow find their way onto site like this. Dune Sherban ( talk) 01:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
To say that taxila has been a place of Hindu learning is to mock history. I was born in the city and am well versed in the history of the city. I would request the contributor to substantiate their claim.
Hindu word itself came after Arabic warriors came in India. The city and its culture was flourishing long before that so one can not relate the culture or city with Hinduism. In fact current Hindu belief is a lot deviated from the original Vedic culture.
“ | (1) Extract from a letter of 22 October 1944, from Prof. F.W. Thomas, C.I.E., M.A., Ph.D., F.B.A. I have never supposed that these 'Universities' were anything but organised groups of independent teachers, such as you describe, without common buildings or action....Real Universities, with colleges (sc. monasteries) and endowments were created by Buddhism. These, of course, Nālandā, Vikramaśīla, etc., were primarily religious and sectarian, and the students and teachers were monks or aspirants to monkhood. But that, as we know from Hiuen-tsang and I-tsing, did not preclude a keen interest in general studies, literary, scientific, and philosophic, including even subjects specially Brahmanic, such as the Veda. In numbers and fame and in splendid buildings and rich endowments these were, of course, great institutions, but they do not belong to the early centuries A.D. In Central Asia and China the Buddhists usually founded pairs of (real) colleges, one for religion and doctrine (dharma), the other for contemplative philosophy (dhyāna). These were about contemporaneous with Nālandā. (2) From Education in Ancient India (1934) by Prof. Altekar, pp. 79–80. In ancient India for several centuries the relations between the teacher and the student were direct, i.e. not through any institution. Buddhism had its own Sanghas or monasteries, which developed into education institutions in the course of a few centuries; but, as far as Hinduism is concerned, we do not so far find any regular education organisations or institutions till about the beginning of the ninth century A.D. For centuries Hindu teachers like Hindu Sanyāsins had no organised institutions. We come across several Jātaka stories about the students and teachers of Takshaśilā, but not a single episode even remotely suggests that the different 'world renowned' teachers living in that city belonged to a particular college or university of the modern type. Marshall, John [1951] (1975). Taxila. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. |
” |
“ | It may be observed at the outset that Taxila did not possess any colleges or university in the modern sense of the term. It was simply a centre of education. It had many famous teachers to whom hundreds of students flocked for higher education from all parts of northern India. But these teachers were not members of any institutions like professors in a modern college, nor were they teaching any courses prescribed by any central body like a modern university. Every teacher, assisted by his advanced students, formed an institution by himself. He admitted as many students as he liked. He taught what his students were anxious to learn. Students terminated their courses according to their individual convenience. There were no degree examinations, and therefore no degrees or diplomas. Altekar, Anant Sadashiv [1934] (1965). Education in Ancient India, Sixth Edition, Revised & Enlarged, Varanasi: Nand Kishore & Bros. |
” |
Cite cop is vandalizing the site, editing and deleting referenced material sep3, 2006
CiteCop is making damn well sure that sources cited verify the text in question.
CiteCop
23:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The source cited in "Early Hindu" refrence is encyclopedia britannica which says that Kautilya was a "Hindu" statesman and a teacher at "taxila" so it was associated with brahminism and early hindu learning before, during and after the reign of Nandas(the dynasty that was defeated by chandragupta with the help of kautilya, who in turn was avenging the fact that he was exiled from Magadha by the Nandas, and spent most of that time at Taxila) All the stupas excavated at Taxila are from either during the later years of Ashoka's reign(two generations after chandragupta) or from a period after that, as is clear from the unesco refrence cited by you. The only religion prevelant before that was hinduism. Taxila was a centre of learning during that period as is clear fron the britannica and Ayurveda(charaka) refrences. We cannont call them Vedic because the late vedic period ended long before Kautilya and Panini lived. Scholars associated with Taxila lived after the 7th century B.C. If we are going to use contemporary terms like Buddhist to describe the Ashoka and Kushan periods, then we have to use Early Hindu(used by most historians to describe this period) for the period prior to that. Cite cop you should be banned for deleting refrenced material your own UNESCO refrence doesn't even use the term buddhist centre of learning but we are all smart enough to know that a stupa is a buddhist monument. Aparently Cite cop you don't know that Hindu statesman(kautilya), ayurvedic scholar(charaka) and sanskrit grammarian(panini) means they were Hindu gentlemen or brahmins to be precise. Or do you think they were all Buddhists???
So now the question is why did you delete those refrences and in addition to that you also deleted the words "Early Hindu"(since charaka, panini and kautilya etc. lived after the late vedic period and the epic age)???????? They pretty well expain that these gentlemen were "Hindu" statesmen or Brahmin scholars........i could cite hundereds of history books published during the last century with refrences that say exactly the same thing. I am not a Hindu nor do i have any association with Taxila but as a student of history the ignorance of people like you is really disturbing.
So Cite Cop, is this another attempt at vandalism or not??? Sept 4, 2006
Why is the image at the top of the page cover the entire width of the page? This is fairly nonstandard. -- Whiteknox 20:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Fouler&Fouler, what proof do you have that Sanskrit was used by the ancient people of Taxila? I will accept the script if you provide a non-Indian and unbiased neutral proof for its use by the ancient people of Taxila. (and also provide script for some language Pali or whatever the third language is) Szhaider 04:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Szhaider, The Sanskrit script at the top of the article is relevant. Sanskrit and Pali/Prakrit were both languages used in the region for 2000 years. See: Peoples and Languages of Pre-Islamic Indus Valley by Tariq Rahman. Here is the first few sentences from the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Taxila:
“ | Sanskrit Takshashila ancient city of northwestern Pakistan, the ruins of which are about 22 miles (35 km) northwest of Rawalpindi. Its prosperity in ancient times resulted from its position at the junction of three great trade routes: one from eastern India described by a Greek writer, Megasthenes, as the “Royal Highway,” the second from western Asia, and the third from Kashmir and Central Asia. | ” |
In Sanskrit "shila" means rock; therefore, the name of the city means "(King) Taksha's rock." Furthermore, Taxila is mentioned in both the Sanskrit epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. Here is the Encyclopaedia Britannica article once again:
“ | Taxila is known from references in Indian and Greco-Roman literary sources and from the accounts of two Chinese Buddhist pilgrims, Faxian and Xuanzang. Literally meaning “City of Cut-Stone” or “Rock of Taksha,” Takshashila (rendered by Greek writers as Taxila) was founded, according to the Indian epic Ramayana, by Bharata, younger brother of Rama, an incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu. The city was named for Bharata's son, Taksha, its first ruler. The great Indian epic Mahabharata was, according to tradition, first recited at Taxila at the great snake sacrifice of King Janamejaya, one of the heroes of the story. Buddhist literature, especially the Jataka, mentions it as the capital of the kingdom of Gandhara and as a great centre of learning. | ” |
So the inclusion of the Sanskrit script in entirely relevant. I am not someone who compulsively asks for Sanskrit scripts in Pakistan related articles. See the Talk:Harappa, where I ask for the Sanskrit to be removed. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The irony of ironies here is that people who now have a problem with sanskrit and ancient vedic religion and its connection to Taxila or Pakistan, are either unaware of or conveniently forget that the greatest Sanskrit grammarian a brahmin to ever have lived, Panini was born not far from today's Taxila in Attock district, and was a prominent personality associated with Taxila, a fact well acknowledged by every credible historian including Pakistani historians---Anon
Why do people feel the need to add text that is plainly not true? Hartmut Scharfe's Education in Ancient India was cited as mentioning Taxila to be the world's oldest university. I read through the relevant pages of Scharfe's book. Nowhere does he call Taxila a university, let alone the world's oldest! He is very careful to only refer to it as a center of learning. Here is what he says:
“ | The earliest reports about instructional institutions that we have refer to the city of Taxila, as the Greeks called it, corresponding to Sanskrit Taksasila (Panini IV 3 93) and Pali Takkasila in Gandhara that contained several monasteries (vihara), all, it seems, involved in teaching. The archaeological site is quite large; but no large lecture halls or dormitories have been discovered. By all indications instructions in these early schools and monasteries was conducted still in an individualistic fashion, not totally unlike the acarya-kula-system, or perhaps more like in an asrama. Independent teachers or individual monks taught single individuals or small groups of students, even if they were part of a larger monastic institution, and perhaps even supervised by the monastic community at large. It was probably another matter when the physician Jivaka Komarabhacca from Rajagaha (Rajagrha) is said to have received his medical training over seven years from his teacher at Takkasila, because there is no indication that the teacher was a monk or even affiliated with a monastery; but his report, too, shows the city as a center of higher learning at an early time....
We have to be extremely cautious in dealing with the literary evidence, because much of the information offered in the secondary literature on Taxila is derived from Jataka prose that was only fixed in Ceylon several centuries after the events that it purports to describe, probably some time after Buddhaghosa, i.e. around A. D. 500. Since the data gleaned from the Jatakas probably represent more the imagination of a late commentator than a tradition of factual knowledge, it will be best to neglect these tales and to rely on more authentic sources. We may accept, though, that Taxila was a well known as a center for higher studies in the Buddhist tradition, as it is mentioned again and again. |
” |
It's one thing to make a good faith mistake, but it's another to cite the Scharfe's book for a claim, when there is no evidence for it in this source. That is falsification, plain and simple! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it was a university. I thought it would be pertinent to produce some sources which include the following:-
Many regards, Freedom skies| talk 06:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
No it is not. Your references are not reliable. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica: [1]
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 07:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Your references are not reliable.
This personal opinion could not be more incorrect. The citations as such, are very reliable. If you're attempting to make a case stating that The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries (part 3:India) by Edward Bradby. is unreliable then you're mistaken. Also, the "It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters" is misrepresented. The structural differences between universites of the world can be gauged by the "Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries."
Having said that, I'm on a Wikibreak and have prior commitments on Wikipedia itself when I return. I'll not pursue this presently due to time constraints. Regards,
Freedom skies| talk 15:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Note This page was previously named Takshashila University. The first five sections of this talk page were copied from that page, and provide the rationale for the name change. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Aren't these "university's" in India more like the Greek " Lyceum" or " Academy"? It seems a bit irresponsible and far-fetched to call them a university. Did they have an established curriculum, building complexes, paid professors? The Europeans don't really begin to call them universities until they incorporate as a university and have paid professors... Stevenmitchell 06:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
Does that sound like a European monastery to you? Where students or pupils stayed at someone's house and paid for a room to learn. Doesn't sound like the production facility of a monastery. I think monasteries were a bit flatter in their hierarchy. It may be the Britannica's analogy but it sounds very confusing.
The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks seems a bit ambiguous. I would think it would be better if we could get a more effective description, rather than one as speculative.
Regards, Steve Stevenmitchell 13:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the incorrect claim that Guinness Book recognizes Taxila as the world's oldest university. The Guinness book recognizes a university in Morrocco, see here, as the world's oldest. As I have mentioned above, Taxila was a center of learning, but (as Britannica says as well) it was not a university in the usual sense of the word. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is this page even here (i.e. in Wikipedia)? The Taxila page is more extensive and has everything here and more. This page should simply be deleted, as there is not one sentence in it that is not already in the Taxila page. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Why do people feel the need to add text that is plainly not true? The text mentioned that the Guinness book considered Taxila to be the world's oldest university. That, however, is not true. Next, another reference, Hartmut Scharfe's Education in Ancient India was cited as mentioning Taxila to be the world's oldest university. I read through the relevant pages of Scharfe's book. Nowhere does he call Taxila a university, let alone the world's oldest! He is very careful to only refer to it as a center of learning. Here is what he says:
“ | The earliest reports about instructional institutions that we have refer to the city of Taxila, as the Greeks called it, corresponding to Sanskrit Taksasila (Panini IV 3 93) and Pali Takkasila in Gandhara that contained several monasteries (vihara), all, it seems, involved in teaching. The archaeological site is quite large; but no large lecture halls or dormitories have been discovered. By all indications instructions in these early schools and monasteries was conducted still in an individualistic fashion, not totally unlike the acarya-kula-system, or perhaps more like in an asrama. Independent teachers or individual monks taught single individuals or small groups of students, even if they were part of a larger monastic institution, and perhaps even supervised by the monastic community at large. It was probably another matter when the physician Jivaka Komarabhacca from Rajagaha (Rajagrha) is said to have received his medical training over seven years from his teacher at Takkasila, because there is no indication that the teacher was a monk or even affiliated with a monastery; but his report, too, shows the city as a center of higher learning at an early time....
We have to be extremely cautious in dealing with the literary evidence, because much of the information offered in the secondary literature on Taxila is derived from Jataka prose that was only fixed in Ceylon several centuries after the events that it purports to describe, probably some time after Buddhaghosa, i.e. around A. D. 500. Since the data gleaned from the Jatakas probably represent more the imagination of a late commentator than a tradition of factual knowledge, it will be best to neglect these tales and to rely on more authentic sources. We may accept, though, that Taxila was a well known as a center for higher studies in the Buddhist tradition, as it is mentioned again and again. |
” |
It's one thing to make a good faith mistake, but it's another to deliberately cite the Guinness Book or Scharfe's book for a claim, when there is no evidence for it in these sources. That is falsification, plain and simple! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The UNESCO World Heritage List brief description describes Taxila as:
“ | From the ancient Neolithic tumulus of Saraikala to the ramparts of Sirkap (2nd century B.C.) and the city of Sirsukh (1st century A.D.), Taxila illustrates the different stages in the development of a city on the Indus that was alternately influenced by Persia, Greece and Central Asia and which, from the 5th century B.C. to the 2nd century A.D., was an important Buddhist centre of learning. | ” |
Again, as I have repeatedly said above, no mention is made of a university. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the name of the page. The evidence that Taxila was not a university was overwhelming. The new name is more accurate. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is pointless in my opinion. The Taxila article already covers pretty much everything mentioned here. Does anyone else agree that this article should be deleted? Jagged 85 22:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As I have said before, Taxila was not a university in the modern sense of the word. I checked one of the references The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries. I couldn't find any references to Taxila as a "university." Taxila according to the search is on page 209, the word "university" is nowhere on that page.
Similarly, Radha Kumud Mookerji (Ancient Indian Education: Brahmanical and Buddhist) calls Taxila a centre of learning and uses the word "university" only as an example. In Chapter 11, titled "Universities," Taxila is not in that list: I. Nalanda, II. Valabhi, ... etc. So, please stop pushing this. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you may be referring to this sentence (Mookerji, page 479):
However, this sentence is more spefific (Mookerji, page 478):
Jagged 85 14:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Why should your interpretion be given any more weight than my interpretation? It's very clear to me that Mookerji does consider Taxila to be like a university. If you don't agree, then I suggest it's best we actually quote it so that readers can interpret it themselves (which is what I was doing). Either way, there are a number of other scholars who do consider Taxila to be a university, just as there are others who do not consider it a university. In any case, I think it would be more reasonable to present both sides of the argument and highlight the fact that there is a disagreement among scholars about whether Taxila should be considered a university. Jagged 85 19:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
These sources refer to Taxila as a university.
An official government portal, a peer reviewed journal and a respectable book.
Freedom skies| talk 12:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University
Institutions in Fourteen Countries. Ed. by EDWARD BRADBY London: Oxford University Press, 1939. Pp. vii+332. $3.50.) This little supplement to Kotschnig's The University in a Changing World (1932) might better have been entitled "The European University outside Europe," although its omission of South and Central American institutions would belie even that title. As it stands, the book presents magazine-length accounts of the history, constitution, aims, and "problems" of Europeanfathered centers of higher education in the United States (78 pages), Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India, China, Japan, the Dutch East Indies, the Arab-Moslem world, Turkey, Iran, and Palestine. For the sociologist the main interest in these all too historical-journalistic accounts perhaps lies in the tracing out of the lines of diffusion by which Western European scientific culture, now, it may be, dying at its core, has pierced its way into the heart of such ancient traditionalistic cultures as the Hindu, Chinese, Moslem, and Hebrew. Many of the universities described in this book are the spearheads of this movement, at once nationalistic and imperialistic. To cite a remark made by Josef Goebbels in another connection, they "provide the intellectual substructure for political power." In view of the present centrifugal tendency of European civilization, however, the white man's burden may become the white man's boon. The universities "outside Europe" may soon be the only universities "Europe" has. E. Y. HARTSHORNE, Harvard University |
” |
Where is Taxila mentioned in the review? As for the book itself, where is "Taxila university" mentioned there? "Taxila is mentioned on page 209, but there is no "university" mentioned there. Jagged85 and Freedom Skies, from your citations, it is clear that you don't have a very good idea of what a reliable reference is. Do you guys really want to take me on and go for an RfC? I am busy right now with other stuff, but when I find more time, I will quote from the other encyclopedias (Encarta and Columbia) and compare what they say about Taxila vs. Nalanda (which really was more worthy of the title "University"). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The content is on page 209.
In response to the very heated from your citations, it is clear that you don't have a very good idea of what a reliable reference is I would call for calming down and reading the following citations:-
When the men of Alexander the great came to Taxila in India in the fourth century BC they found a university there the like of which had not been seen in Greece, a university which taught the three Vedas and the eighteen accomplishments and was still existing when the Chinese pilgrim Fa-Hsien went there about AD 400. -- Within the Four Seas: The Dialogue of East and West By Joseph Needham. Published 2004. Routledge. ISBN 0415361664
The ancient university city of Taxila, on the Indian side of the Indus, lay within the reach of Peshawar. -- History of Indian and Indonesian Art 1927 By Ananda Kentish Coomaraswamy. Published 2003. Kessinger Publishing. ISBN 0766158012
Arab travellers and their teachers came in large numbers to the northern university of Takshashila or Taxila, which was especially famous for medicine. -- Indo-West Asian Relations: The Nehru Era By Najma Heptulla. Published 1991. Allied Publishers
Early biblical references provide accounts of travelling scholars, and interlectual education can be traced to the 272-22 BC reign of Ashoka the great and the establishment of the University of Taxila in Asia minor. -- The Psychology of Culture Shock By Colleen A. Ward, Stephen Bochner, Adrian Furnham. Published 2001. Routledge. ISBN 0415162343
In the early centuries the centre of Buddhist scholarship was the University of Taxila (near the present city of Islamabad) -- A History of India By Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund. Published 2004. Routledge. ISBN 0415329191
[the Buddhist university of] Taxila, beyond the Gupta boundaries, [was] in the fifth century devastated by the Huns -- Scholarship and the Gypsy Struggle: commitment in Romani studies. Donald Kenrick. Published 2000. University of Hertfordshire Press. ISBN 1902806018
Foreign minister Zulfifar Ali Bhutto arranged for the secretary general to take time out to visit Taxila, seat of the oldest Buddhist university in the world. -- United Nations: the first fifty years By Stanley Meisler. Published 1995. Atlantic Monthly Press. ISBN 0871136562
Taxila university , which is the oldest in the world, has been in existence even before the time of the Buddha and before the occupation of the Taxila valley by the Achaemanid rulers in 6th- 5th century B.C. Probably in the period of the (7th century B.C.) philosophers gathered here to have their own schools of thought and imparted instructions. -- Official Portal of the Government of Pakistan (Pakistani Heritage)
The history of international educational exchange can be traced to the University of Taxila (Taxshashila) in ancient India. -- Indian Education Abstracts By India Ministry of Education, India Central Secretariat Library
The Buddhist influences in northern Pakistan are evident in elaborate buildings at Julian, the Buddhist hill town outside the ruins of Taxila, where a bustling university existed in ancient times to train monks -- Culture And Customs of Pakistan By Iftikhar Haider Malik. Published 2005. Greenwood Press. ISBN 031333126X
Freedom skies| talk 18:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Please don't add any responses or references in this section. I am collecting my own references here. Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
From History of Education article:
“ | These forces produced revolutionary changes in education. Schools were established in growing towns, and even day scholars were admitted. Studies were chosen freely and not according to caste. Taxila had already acquired an international reputation in the 6th century BC as a centre of advanced studies and now improved upon it. It did not possess any college or university in the modern sense of the term, but it was a great centre of learning with a number of famous teachers, each having a school of his own. | ” |
From History of Education article:
“ | The 500 years from the 4th century AD to the close of the 8th, under the Guptas and Harsha and their successors, is a remarkable period in Indian history. It was the age of the universities of Nalanda and Valabhi and of the rise of Indian sciences, mathematics, and astronomy. The university at Nalanda housed a population of several thousand teachers and students, who were maintained out of the revenues from more than 100 villages. Because of its fame, Nalanda attracted students from abroad, but the admission test was so strict that only two or three out of 10 attained admission. | ” |
From "Taxila" article:
“ | Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. | ” |
From "Nalanda" article:
“ | celebrated Buddhist monastic centre, often spoken of as a university, southwest of Bihar city in northern Bihar state, India. Nalanda's traditional history dates to the time of the Buddha (6th–5th centuries BC) and Mahavira, the founder of the Jaina religion. According to a later Tibetan source, Nagarjuna, the 2nd–3rd-century AD Buddhist philosopher, began his studies there. Extensive excavations carried out by the Archaeological Survey of India indicate, however, that the foundation of the monasteries belongs to the Gupta period (5th century AD)... | ” |
From Taxila article:
“ | Taxila was also a great center for learning, where the study of the Vedas, the Buddhist sutras, and the sciences flourished, especially during the Kushāna period (1st to 3rd century ad). It declined in importance after the coming of the White Huns in the 5th century. | ” |
From Nalanda article:
“ | Nalanda, Bihār State, India, an ancient seat of learning, probably founded in the 5th century AD. It flourished until the 12th century and at its height had 2000 teachers and 10,000 students. Teachings included the study of the Buddhist scriptures of both the Mahayana and Theravada schools, the Vedas, philosophy, mathematics, logic, theology, and medicine. Attendance was free, since the university was supported by revenue and food donations collected from local villages.... The site now lies in ruins, but excavation work has revealed a complex of lecture halls, dormitories, gardens, and many stupas, in addition to stone images of the Buddha. | ” |
From Taxila article:
“ | archaeological site of three successive cities, near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There between the 7th cent. B.C. and the 7th cent. A.D. was a flourishing city, famous as an ancient seat of learning. It was occupied (326 B.C.) by Alexander the Great, became prosperous under the empire of Asoka, and was overrun (c.1st–2d cent. A.D.) by the Kushans. It was a center of Buddhist studies and was visited in the 7th cent. by Hsüan-tsang. | ” |
From Nalanda article:
“ | Buddhist monastic center in what is now Baragaon, Bihar state, E central India. Often referred to as a university, Nalanda was, from the 4th to the 12 cent. A.D., the most renowned center of Buddhist learning in India. There are extensive ruins of stupas, monasteries, and temples. | ” |
What does taxila have to do with Pakistant, no disrespect to pakistan, but when taxila was built there was no taxila, this should be listed under WikiProject Pakistan. It's insulting to all indians, People who say this is isnt a hindu university are crazy!! It was build in Hindu india, everything during the time of its building was Hindu, the size of this article doesent do it justice, can we call it Takshashila like it was named then, not taxila... You ca shorten most stuff, but not everying. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.13.72.99 ( talk • contribs). at 17:25, 17 June 2007
If they changed India to Bharat Varsh that would simply be correct, India is incorrect, yet we live with it. Im just 12, i have no idea about this Naland(a=wrong), Bodh Gaya... For the last time, Takshashila was build in India, not in what we now as pakistan. How can my above comment interpret as "Pakistan doesn't have too many Hindus," is beyond me. It IS insulting to indians, i am indian, i find it insulting that the first university in the world, a indian one is listed under a pakistani project, pakistan has given NOTHING to the world, India has been the base for most of the worlds knowledge yet the west can accept this(i live in london) Greece is in Europe and India is in Asia, greek people have no right as to the name or ANYTHING of india. I'm not sure if its what you said but if you did i just want to say, Takshashila is NOT ONE BIT A PLACE OF BUDDHIST LEARNING. It has no religious strings. Its a university, a place to learn, religion could be a subject, its not a mandir or monastrey, a universtiy, school.
P.S I dont live in india, i live in london the above anon is me 82.13.72.99 17:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Patriotic
so this means im right??? YEAH!!
82.13.72.99
15:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan (i am patriotic, but this name is better)
No, it doesn't mean that, but just that I've been busy. I think it is very commendable that you as a 12-year old are reading and contributing to Wikipedia, but you also seem to have collected a lot of biases and prejudices for your age. I will post some age-appropriate reading (for young teenagers) here that will help you to better understand prejudice. Meanwhile keep reading and don't vandalize the Taxila page, which you seemed to have done twice already. Regards and all the best, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I shouldntve done that..woopsy... But i s'pose up to a certain extent you are right, i am sort of biased but i say this all because i think its unjust how many people dont seem to realise what India has done, not only that, they dont even acknowledge the facts, they twist the truth, like it wasn't a university, but a place of learning. That makes no sense, a place of learning and a university is exactly the same thing. One user for emaxple, vi5in is racist. He/she has some biased thoughts on ram's bridge, not adams bridge. goodbye thank you please...P.S im on different IP because this is my dads laptop
82.13.72.99 10:36, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan
In that day, do you think there were primary schools, secodarys schools, college then university, i doubt it.
82.13.72.99
17:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan
Yes! In the same way they didn't have any universities. ( [[User:Giani g|Giani g]] 18:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC))
Well they didnt. ur wrong!!!! 82.13.72.99 20:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)Spartan .
im sick of these low life indians who think they own south asia and wikipedia get to your own indian pages and edit them and dont spread your jelous filled filth in pakistani articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.129.53 ( talk) 20:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have left a message on the Wikipedia:Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard requesting any assistance with the current content dispute in this article. Knowledgeum ( talk) 19:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
displaying the usaul islamophobic attitudes editors on this article have totally rubished pakistani history and masked it with so called anceint india this is a typical example of indians being given the favour and pakistanis ignored there was no such thing as india before 1947 is the editors cannot accept this simple fact then you are not fit to edit articles as you are prone to pro india and anti pakistan i urge western editors to drop there racist culture and accept facts about pakistan and its anceint history this is not nazi germany this is the modern world first jews now muslims europeans must be more neautral.
can any non indian and any no pro indians help with this article its being used as a promotion for india even though taxila is pakistan not india get over it people india has done nothing for pakistan and is not part of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.178.203 ( talk) 17:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eilangko ( talk • contribs) 22:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Try and solve once for all with a RFC request to solve the current content dispute. Knowledgeum ( talk) 17:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
India is the name given by the white europeans to a nation which they occupied in the 18th century before then india was nothing but a vast expanse of land ruled by moghuls and various other kingdoms india has hundreds of names Hindustan Bharat and several others so it is unfair and offensive to label pakistan soil as indian as india came into being in 1947 before then taxila was just taxila in punjab india was nothing and has nothing to do with Pakistans history or taxila it is offensive to state pakistans land as indian stop the bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.69.108 ( talk) 13:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
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I don't think the word Takshashila came from Ramayana as Takshashila pre-dates Ramayana's time period (400 BCE - 200 CE as per wikipedia). I put Ramayana to be around 250 BCE. However, Taxila has existed in the 5-th/6-th century BCE. It kind of defies logic for a name that has been taken from a book to appear before the text was actually written. Therefore it should be removed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eilangko ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC) WHAT!!! Ramayana dates 250 BCE? dude, you have got a serioes problem with dates. Its not about the text ramyana, its about the occurence of the events of ramayana. Before stating its actual occurence period, i would like to tell that mahabharata occured in the time around 600 BCE, which way after ramayana occured. you can chech this thing again from ikipedia, in which the article "mahajanapadas" i there, where the kuru/gandhara/anga states are described, the states in mahabharata. Ramayana occurered 100s of years before mahabharata. according to NASA, it was the period around 2500 BCE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.110.93.60 ( talk) 07:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The problem with Taxila's name in Sanskrit is that we nowadays use Devanagari to write Sanskrit, but Devanagari is much younger than the language itself and would not have been in use at the time of Taxila. Giving the name in Devanagari is thus an anachronism; we do better by just giving a romanization of the Sanskrit name. The script in use at the time of Taxila's heyday would probably have been Brahmi or one of its close descendants. Huon ( talk) 23:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be a piece of software turning Latin text into Brahmi here. https://sites.google.com/site/brahmiscript/ Could you try it Huon? I can't because I am running Mac OS but the software is written for Windows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.98.197.34 ( talk) 23:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Another problem is that current text has (without any supporting citation):
How can there be two "literal" translations?
Then, following one of the article's links to a Pakistani government site, you find:
So we have three different translations for the name. My inclination would be to delete the existing text and replace it with the third explanation. I already did that at at voy:Taxila, but might revert myself if discussion here reaches another conclusion. Pashley ( talk) 19:46, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I removed the devanagari and "literally" but resisted the temptation to change the claim on the origin of the name. Pashley ( talk) 18:27, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
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Why is this even here?
"Afghana or Avagana[32] (born ~ 1000 BC according to folklore[citation needed]) is considered by Indian and Pathan folklore a tribal chief or prince of Bani Israel (Israelite) origin and a progenitor of modern-day Pashtuns,[33][34][35][36][37] the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan and second largest in Pakistan. The ethnonym "Afghan" is believed to derive from his name."
I fail to see how this is even relevant to the political section history or this article in general. This falls under folklore, NOT history and does not belong in this article. I beleive this should be completely removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 11:41, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Why is this even here?
"Afghana or Avagana[32] (born ~ 1000 BC according to folklore[citation needed]) is considered by Indian and Pathan folklore a tribal chief or prince of Bani Israel (Israelite) origin and a progenitor of modern-day Pashtuns,[33][34][35][36][37] the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan and second largest in Pakistan. The ethnonym "Afghan" is believed to derive from his name." I fail to see how this is even relevant to the political section history or this article in general. This falls under folklore, NOT history and does not belong in this article. I beleive this should be completely removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 11:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Why is this even here?
"Afghana or Avagana[32] (born ~ 1000 BC according to folklore[citation needed]) is considered by Indian and Pathan folklore a tribal chief or prince of Bani Israel (Israelite) origin and a progenitor of modern-day Pashtuns,[33][34][35][36][37] the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan and second largest in Pakistan. The ethnonym "Afghan" is believed to derive from his name."
I fail to see how this is even relevant to the political section history or this article in general. This falls under folklore, NOT history and does not belong in this article. I beleive this should be completely removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 11:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
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Regarding edits made on June 1, 2017:
The fact that the Pali and Sanskrit names of the city has fallen out of favor is self-evident by the fact that we now only use the Greek recorded name for the modern city. Any reference to the modern city uses only the name "Taxila," and remember, this page is about the modern city of Taxila, not the ancient city of Taxila.
There are no articles regarding the modern city that refer to it as "Takshashila" aside from those of fringe groups online who refer to the city by its Sanskrit name for a variety of reasons. That is, no one ever refers to the city as "Takshashila, Pakistan" because the use of Takshashila has obviously fallen out of favor and is now unused. And let's not forget that this is a Pakistani city, and the only official name for this city is "Taxila." Therefore, the Greek-recorded name is now even the only official name, which again points to the fact that the city's Pali and Sanskrit names have fallen out of favor.
If this is controversial, please explain why. Have you found any reputable modern sources that have referred to Taxila, Pakistan (the subject of this page) as Takshashila or Takkasila? Of course not. Therefore it is obvious that the Greek recording Taxila is the only name still in use, and hence, the Pali and Sanskrit names must then have abandoned in favor of the Greek name. That is why it is self-evident. Willard84 ( talk) 20:46, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Regarding edits on June 1, 2017: ""It is common enough to be prominently listed as the alternate title in entries in Britannica, etc.. Please take this to talk if you disagree."
The name isn't commonly used, because the Encyclopedia Britannica article is the only article referring to the MODERN city that includes the Sanskrit name so prominently - the article you quoted, by the way, was written by "Baij Nath Puri." The UNESCO page on Taxila also omits the ancient name, as does any official page regarding the modern city.
The only cities with a description of something along the lines of "formerly known as" are those cities which have had a relatively recent name change, not a shift that occurred 2000 years ago. Hence, it makes sense to include Bombay on Mumbai's page, but doesn't make sense to include "formerly Tenochtitlán" on the Mexico City page, even though the city of Tenochtitlán was one of the pre-Columbian worlds most magnificent cities.
The ancient name is prominently included on pages referring to issues regarding the historic ruins. So pages regarding Hindu though/texts, ancient history, and art history will often include the Sanskrit name. But even thats not always the case, as the prominent Oriental Architecture database does not include the Sanskrit name here.
And again, this is a page not about the ancient city of Taxila, but instead the modern city of Taxila, Pakistan. Just as the page on London doesnt include "formerly Londinium", neither should the Taxila page include some ancient name from 2000 years ago that has almost no bearing at all on the modern city itself. Willard84 ( talk) 21:17, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
So, according to Willard84's statements on this talk page, this article is about the modern "city" of Taxila and not about the ancient city and world heritage site. Consequently, he has gone about restructuring the page so that the first infobox is now Infobox settlement and the World Heritage infobox has been shoved halfway down the page. Now, even though 90% of the article is about the ancient city, the lead has been amended to give importance to the modern settlement. However, in my opinion, the primary topic for this article is the ancient city and primacy should consequently be accorded to it. General references support this:
Taxila, Sanskrit Takshashila, ancient city of northwestern Pakistan, the ruins of which are about 22 miles (35 km) northwest of Rawalpindi. Its prosperity in ancient times resulted from its position at the junction of three great trade routes: one from eastern India, described by the Greek writer Megasthenes as the “Royal Highway”; the second from western Asia; and the third from Kashmir and Central Asia. When these routes ceased to be important, the city sank into insignificance and was finally destroyed by the Huns in the 5th century ce. Taxila was designated a UNESCO World Heritage site in 1980.
No mention of the modern settlement.
an archaeological site near Rawalpindi, Pakistan: ruins of three successive cities on the same site, dating from about the 7th century b.c. to about the 7th century a.d.; Buddhist center.
No mention of the modern settlement.
Ruins. The present name is the Greek version of the Sanskrit name Takṣaśilā ‘The Rock of Takṣa’. According to the …
Scholarly sources all talk about the ancient city as do the majority of Google search results. From what I can tell, the modern Pakistani settlement of Taxila is not a city at all and is, at best, a town and a minor one at that being only a short distance away from both Rawalpindi and Islamabad. I believe that the ancient city and heritage site should be the focus of this article and mention of the modern town relegated to a subsection perhaps linked to a separate article.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 12:34, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
You're the one changing the entire page's focus to an ancient city when the page even before my edits was clearly in reference to the modern city (e.g.: section on economy, modern educational institutions etc, please note that I'm reverting the lead and primary infobox to exactly what it was before you changed it to be about the town and not about the ancient city. This, IMO, is as per WP:BRD.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 20:21, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
which already has a page at Ancient Taxila!as you created the page yourself in the middle of this content dispute. For those watching, this spin-off article was previously named Ruins at Taxila and Willard84 had also begun redirecting links to Taxila to his new page.)-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 08:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Willard for supplying some information and thank you Cpt. Haddock for the response. I think we have established the following:
Therefore I think it would be reasonable to cover both ancient and modern Taxila in this article. There should be a good deal of emphasis on Taxila's history, including its historical name, since this represents the best-known part of Taxila, which people want information about. At the same time there is room for information about the modern city. Should such information start running too long, it could be forked off to another page ( Modern Taxila; Taxila, Pakistan; Economy of Taxila; or something else). (I notice that ancient Taxila also forks to sub-articles: Sirkap, Jinnan Wali Dheri, other articles found at Category:Taxila.) I would recommend including the information about modern Taxila in one main section, rather than having it confusingly interspersed as it is now. It seems that Cpt. Haddock is thinking along similar lines.
Willard, how does that sound? If you think that the outcome should be something different, what should it be, and why? Cheers, groupuscule ( talk) 14:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
A user intends to change the intro to a previous version which includes facts not typically included in lead paragraphs such as ekevation, and undue prominence of a centuries old name. Thoughts? Willard84 ( talk) 19:55, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Since there are so many issues with this page's name, what is wrong with making two pages: 'Taxila (ancient)' for this page, and 'Taxila (modern)' for the other? While most sources regarding ancient history imply "ancient" in front of the word "taxila," it doesn't detract from the fact that Taxila is also a decent sized modern city in Pakistan with its own cantonment. "Taxila" thus does not simply refer to ancient taxila alone. Willard84 ( talk) 06:18, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved DrStrauss talk 09:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Taxila →
Ancient Taxila –
"Ancient Taxila" refers to the ancient city of Takshashila which is referenced on this article, while "Taxila" can ALSO mean the modern city. Since the users here argue that this page is referring to the ANCIENT city of Taxila, I think the Idea of clarifying this page's topic by renaming it Ancient Taxila is a good idea in order to avoid confusion.
The current page should be renamed Ancient Taxila, while the modern city of Taxila's page should be entitled Taxila (modern) - a page I've already created in order to help clear confusion. (Please also note that the modern city is refered to only by the name Taxila as well. That is, it is not called anything like "New Taxila," "Modern Taxila," or "Taxila City," etc etc. It is just Taxila.)
Another good alternative would be to refer to this page as Taxila (ancient) to clarify that this is a page about the ancient city of Taxila. But both titles should be unambiguous. Allowing "Taxila" to refer only to the ancient ruined city from 2000 years ago completely neglects the sizeable present day city of the same name.
Given the fact that naming conventions can cause heated debates, it would be best if third-party and unbiased users could weigh in - that is, those of you who are not from South Asia might offer a better perspective, rather than a group of Pakistani editors outnumbering Indians, or vice versa.
Willard84 ( talk) 07:23, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The modern town of Taxila is 35 km from Islamabad. There might be an official system of classification of urban areas which might shed light on any official designation for the settlement.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 07:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
"Others do not consider it a university in the modern sense, in that the teachers living there may not have had official membership of particular colleges, and there did not seem to have existed purpose-built lecture halls and residential quarters in Taxila"
One source has been tagged for "page needed", [13] it is from 1966 and other source includes a quote from 1944. How about we entirely remove this? Unless one can find modern sources. Capitals00 ( talk) 00:20, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
The defining factor of this ancient city was the fact it was a center of learning for Vedic Hindu and Buddhist learning. This should be mentioned in the beginning sentence, as mentioned, this charastic is what makes this city unique from other "ancient city". This is also mentioned in multiple sources as a defining charastics. [1] [2] [3] [4]
I propose my revision be reinstated, which @ Cpt.a.haddock: has undone. If @ RegentsPark: can help solve this conflict between Cpt.a.haddock and I -- will be greatful. ( 63.143.226.184 ( talk) 22:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC))
References
Is it a sacred place for Buddhists or Jains — Preceding unsigned comment added by StLouis2 ( talk • contribs) 03:44, 25 November 2017 (UTC)