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IF YOU HAVE ANY GOOD QUALITY PICTURES OF T77 PLEASE ADD THEM TO COMMONS AND SUBSEQUENTLY TO THIS ARTICLE Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 09:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Tatra T77 is the first serial-produced truly aerodynamically designed automobile.
Rumpler Tropfenwagens were made during 1921-1925. The total number of the cars was about 100. T77's were made about 250 pcs between 1934-1938. Both of them were streamlined. Building of both cars was based very much on handicraft but maybe you can call it "serial production" in the criteria of their era.
I just wonder why is T77 regarded the first serial produced streamlined car.
Or doesn't Rumpler's car fit into the criteria of streamlining? They were made in different principles - Rumpler used his experience in aviation industry whereas T77 was based on Járay's patent with a flat bottom. -- Gwafton ( talk) 20:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I added link about Rumpler's car to the SEE ALSO section, the reader shall decide for himself. But as long as majority of sources state that Tatra is first serially produced aerodynamic car, I insist that the article states it as well. Please don't delete it any more, unless you can cite numerous sources which would support your case. Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 22:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Is it really midsize car? It was six seater. The height was much lower than other cars of the era, but the internal space seems large enough to put it into larger class, doesn't it? Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 22:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
There are a number of fundamental errors in this piece:
"That led to putting the engine in the rear of the car, directly above the driven axle" The engine is not directly above the driven axle, but entirely behind it, as in most rear-engined cars. William Bushnell Stout's Scarabs from 1932 had this unusual configuration, but Tatra did not install engines between the wheels until the T613 of 1973.
"…no more need for a floor tunnel" ...but there's still a substantial central box-section backbone that just doesn't have a propshaft in it.
"…the oil cooler, battery and spare wheel were positioned in the front of the car" The two oil coolers are in the engine compartment, not at the front, high up and either side. This is confusion with the later T87, T97 and the post-WW2 Tatraplan. Two spare wheels are carried in the front compartment, partly for improved front/rear weight distribution.
"The frameless body…" The T77 and T77A all had coachbuilt ash-framed bodies (with Elektron B-pillars on some, at least) on a steel platform chassis. It was the later cars that, apart from ash-framed cable-tensioned doors, were all-steel.
"…only the door hinges protruded slightly" Most, if not all, production cars had entirely concealed hinges, unlike the subsequent T87 and T97.
At 5,300mm including the bumpers, and 1,700kg (1,800kg for the T77A), the six-seater Tatra is unarguably a large car by all but US standards, and particularly so back in its day.
There appears, also, to be a determination to persist with the "first serial-produced, truly aerodynamically-designed automobile" assertion, despite the clear precedent of Rumpler's Tropfenwagen, with its symmetrical aerofoil plan, very low Cd and slightly more produced at 100 v. 95 than the T77. Multiple sources are claimed, but these are mostly parroting earlier ones, which is a major problem with Tatra history.
User talk: Heckmotor97 ( talk) 09:23, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
The claim seems to come from a single source, and I find it highly dubious. The 77 and 87 were manufactured in quite limited amount, only about 3,500 cars altogether. I don't know how many officers were KIA in WWII, but Germany lost almost 5 million soldiers in combat and if even a minute part of those would have been "high-ranking officers", it would mean that thousands of officers were lost in combat. For generals alone, Germany lost 136 of them in combat, so it seems highly unlikely that one car could cause so much casualties as it was not that common. Mleppanen ( talk) 14:07, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
This nonsense has no reliable provenance. It's just relentlessly trotted out by everyone who's read it somewhere else. Respected automotive executive, historian and former T87 owner, Karl Ludvigsen, dismisses it as "a canard" Heckmotor97 ( talk) 15:10, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
The well-known image of Übelacker standing beside a two-door car is captioned "Erich Übelacker in front of the prototype T77, a two-door coupé". This unique vehicle is not a T77 at all, prototype or otherwise, but a later T87 development mule with that next model's machinery housed in shortened 3-headlight T77a bodywork. Unless anyone objects, I shall correct this in due course. Heckmotor97 ( talk) 18:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
Here you can see some wind tunnel models of the Rumpler Tropfenwagen. https://twitter.com/dlr_de/status/1130437658390482944 I don't want to spoil the article. I'm not an English native speaker and that's the first section of the article. That's why I would like to ask, that someone corrects the article. But even the Tropenwagen wasn't the first streamlined car. At least there was a prototype Alfa Romeo Aerodinamica of 1913. If nobody does this, maybe I will edit the article next month. Nfp ( talk) 22:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
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IF YOU HAVE ANY GOOD QUALITY PICTURES OF T77 PLEASE ADD THEM TO COMMONS AND SUBSEQUENTLY TO THIS ARTICLE Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 09:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Tatra T77 is the first serial-produced truly aerodynamically designed automobile.
Rumpler Tropfenwagens were made during 1921-1925. The total number of the cars was about 100. T77's were made about 250 pcs between 1934-1938. Both of them were streamlined. Building of both cars was based very much on handicraft but maybe you can call it "serial production" in the criteria of their era.
I just wonder why is T77 regarded the first serial produced streamlined car.
Or doesn't Rumpler's car fit into the criteria of streamlining? They were made in different principles - Rumpler used his experience in aviation industry whereas T77 was based on Járay's patent with a flat bottom. -- Gwafton ( talk) 20:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I added link about Rumpler's car to the SEE ALSO section, the reader shall decide for himself. But as long as majority of sources state that Tatra is first serially produced aerodynamic car, I insist that the article states it as well. Please don't delete it any more, unless you can cite numerous sources which would support your case. Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 22:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Is it really midsize car? It was six seater. The height was much lower than other cars of the era, but the internal space seems large enough to put it into larger class, doesn't it? Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 22:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
There are a number of fundamental errors in this piece:
"That led to putting the engine in the rear of the car, directly above the driven axle" The engine is not directly above the driven axle, but entirely behind it, as in most rear-engined cars. William Bushnell Stout's Scarabs from 1932 had this unusual configuration, but Tatra did not install engines between the wheels until the T613 of 1973.
"…no more need for a floor tunnel" ...but there's still a substantial central box-section backbone that just doesn't have a propshaft in it.
"…the oil cooler, battery and spare wheel were positioned in the front of the car" The two oil coolers are in the engine compartment, not at the front, high up and either side. This is confusion with the later T87, T97 and the post-WW2 Tatraplan. Two spare wheels are carried in the front compartment, partly for improved front/rear weight distribution.
"The frameless body…" The T77 and T77A all had coachbuilt ash-framed bodies (with Elektron B-pillars on some, at least) on a steel platform chassis. It was the later cars that, apart from ash-framed cable-tensioned doors, were all-steel.
"…only the door hinges protruded slightly" Most, if not all, production cars had entirely concealed hinges, unlike the subsequent T87 and T97.
At 5,300mm including the bumpers, and 1,700kg (1,800kg for the T77A), the six-seater Tatra is unarguably a large car by all but US standards, and particularly so back in its day.
There appears, also, to be a determination to persist with the "first serial-produced, truly aerodynamically-designed automobile" assertion, despite the clear precedent of Rumpler's Tropfenwagen, with its symmetrical aerofoil plan, very low Cd and slightly more produced at 100 v. 95 than the T77. Multiple sources are claimed, but these are mostly parroting earlier ones, which is a major problem with Tatra history.
User talk: Heckmotor97 ( talk) 09:23, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
The claim seems to come from a single source, and I find it highly dubious. The 77 and 87 were manufactured in quite limited amount, only about 3,500 cars altogether. I don't know how many officers were KIA in WWII, but Germany lost almost 5 million soldiers in combat and if even a minute part of those would have been "high-ranking officers", it would mean that thousands of officers were lost in combat. For generals alone, Germany lost 136 of them in combat, so it seems highly unlikely that one car could cause so much casualties as it was not that common. Mleppanen ( talk) 14:07, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
This nonsense has no reliable provenance. It's just relentlessly trotted out by everyone who's read it somewhere else. Respected automotive executive, historian and former T87 owner, Karl Ludvigsen, dismisses it as "a canard" Heckmotor97 ( talk) 15:10, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
The well-known image of Übelacker standing beside a two-door car is captioned "Erich Übelacker in front of the prototype T77, a two-door coupé". This unique vehicle is not a T77 at all, prototype or otherwise, but a later T87 development mule with that next model's machinery housed in shortened 3-headlight T77a bodywork. Unless anyone objects, I shall correct this in due course. Heckmotor97 ( talk) 18:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
Here you can see some wind tunnel models of the Rumpler Tropfenwagen. https://twitter.com/dlr_de/status/1130437658390482944 I don't want to spoil the article. I'm not an English native speaker and that's the first section of the article. That's why I would like to ask, that someone corrects the article. But even the Tropenwagen wasn't the first streamlined car. At least there was a prototype Alfa Romeo Aerodinamica of 1913. If nobody does this, maybe I will edit the article next month. Nfp ( talk) 22:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)