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It seems weird that this article is using the population classification preferred by phrenologists.
AlleyRegent69 ( talk) 15:43, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
paper here "The identity of the earliest inhabitants of Xinjiang, in the heart of Inner Asia, and the languages that they spoke have long been debated and remain contentious1. Here we present genomic data from 5 individuals dating to around 3000–2800 BC from the Dzungarian Basin and 13 individuals dating to around 2100–1700 BC from the Tarim Basin, representing the earliest yet discovered human remains from North and South Xinjiang, respectively. We find that the Early Bronze Age Dzungarian individuals exhibit a predominantly Afanasievo ancestry with an additional local contribution, and the Early–Middle Bronze Age Tarim individuals contain only a local ancestry. The Tarim individuals from the site of Xiaohe further exhibit strong evidence of milk proteins in their dental calculus, indicating a reliance on dairy pastoralism at the site since its founding. Our results do not support previous hypotheses for the origin of the Tarim mummies, who were argued to be Proto-Tocharian-speaking pastoralists descended from the Afanasievo1,2 or to have originated among the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex3 or Inner Asian Mountain Corridor cultures4. Instead, although Tocharian may have been plausibly introduced to the Dzungarian Basin by Afanasievo migrants during the Early Bronze Age, we find that the earliest Tarim Basin cultures appear to have arisen from a genetically isolated local population that adopted neighbouring pastoralist and agriculturalist practices, which allowed them to settle and thrive along the shifting riverine oases of the Taklamakan Desert." Doug Weller talk 15:47, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
" The Tarim mummies’ so-called Western physical features are probably due to their connection to the Pleistocene ANE gene pool, and their extreme genetic isolation differs from the EBA Dzungarian, IAMC and Chemurchek populations, who experienced substantial genetic interactions with the nearby populations mirroring their cultural links, pointing towards a role of extreme environments as a barrier to human migration." Doug Weller talk 15:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
"The language of Afanasievo suffered almost complete language extinction owing to both Iranic and Turkic encroachment, eclipsing most dialects before they had the chance to be documented; only Tocharian, by virtue of undertaking a second migration south into the Tarim Basin and the cultural sphere of Buddhist and Chinese written traditions, emerged before going extinct."). It is obviously not mandatory that the preservation of Tocharian necessarily went along with detectable persistence of Afanasievo ancestry (Tocharian could have also spread to the south through language shift), but finding traces of the latter certainly supports the Afanasievo/Tocharian hypothesis. – Austronesier ( talk) 19:22, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Can't particularly vouch for all source quality; I'm just running across mostly-secondary material and pasting the citation deets for it here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
I raise issues with the part where it states that the mummies had 'typical caucasian' feature and then states (tall stature, high cheekbones, deep-set eyes). I don't mean to state the obvious but should be mentioned many white people are not tall, nor is tallness a whites only trait. And also Eurasians, East Asians and Africans also can have deep set eyes so it's not exactly a trait belonging to Caucasians only. When you write that these are typical features of Caucasians, it's both inaccurate and wrong at multiple levels as other races have those too. However the mummies were described as having a so-called Western physical appearance. And such a facial style is actually typical of Caucasians and so that should stay. So made the changes. 49.180.125.162 ( talk) 16:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tarim mummies article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | A fact from Tarim mummies appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 June 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:
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It seems weird that this article is using the population classification preferred by phrenologists.
AlleyRegent69 ( talk) 15:43, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
paper here "The identity of the earliest inhabitants of Xinjiang, in the heart of Inner Asia, and the languages that they spoke have long been debated and remain contentious1. Here we present genomic data from 5 individuals dating to around 3000–2800 BC from the Dzungarian Basin and 13 individuals dating to around 2100–1700 BC from the Tarim Basin, representing the earliest yet discovered human remains from North and South Xinjiang, respectively. We find that the Early Bronze Age Dzungarian individuals exhibit a predominantly Afanasievo ancestry with an additional local contribution, and the Early–Middle Bronze Age Tarim individuals contain only a local ancestry. The Tarim individuals from the site of Xiaohe further exhibit strong evidence of milk proteins in their dental calculus, indicating a reliance on dairy pastoralism at the site since its founding. Our results do not support previous hypotheses for the origin of the Tarim mummies, who were argued to be Proto-Tocharian-speaking pastoralists descended from the Afanasievo1,2 or to have originated among the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex3 or Inner Asian Mountain Corridor cultures4. Instead, although Tocharian may have been plausibly introduced to the Dzungarian Basin by Afanasievo migrants during the Early Bronze Age, we find that the earliest Tarim Basin cultures appear to have arisen from a genetically isolated local population that adopted neighbouring pastoralist and agriculturalist practices, which allowed them to settle and thrive along the shifting riverine oases of the Taklamakan Desert." Doug Weller talk 15:47, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
" The Tarim mummies’ so-called Western physical features are probably due to their connection to the Pleistocene ANE gene pool, and their extreme genetic isolation differs from the EBA Dzungarian, IAMC and Chemurchek populations, who experienced substantial genetic interactions with the nearby populations mirroring their cultural links, pointing towards a role of extreme environments as a barrier to human migration." Doug Weller talk 15:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
"The language of Afanasievo suffered almost complete language extinction owing to both Iranic and Turkic encroachment, eclipsing most dialects before they had the chance to be documented; only Tocharian, by virtue of undertaking a second migration south into the Tarim Basin and the cultural sphere of Buddhist and Chinese written traditions, emerged before going extinct."). It is obviously not mandatory that the preservation of Tocharian necessarily went along with detectable persistence of Afanasievo ancestry (Tocharian could have also spread to the south through language shift), but finding traces of the latter certainly supports the Afanasievo/Tocharian hypothesis. – Austronesier ( talk) 19:22, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Can't particularly vouch for all source quality; I'm just running across mostly-secondary material and pasting the citation deets for it here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
I raise issues with the part where it states that the mummies had 'typical caucasian' feature and then states (tall stature, high cheekbones, deep-set eyes). I don't mean to state the obvious but should be mentioned many white people are not tall, nor is tallness a whites only trait. And also Eurasians, East Asians and Africans also can have deep set eyes so it's not exactly a trait belonging to Caucasians only. When you write that these are typical features of Caucasians, it's both inaccurate and wrong at multiple levels as other races have those too. However the mummies were described as having a so-called Western physical appearance. And such a facial style is actually typical of Caucasians and so that should stay. So made the changes. 49.180.125.162 ( talk) 16:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)