This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tar-Baby article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
The article states that "[t]he only way to solve such a situation is by separation." This seems to be a misinterpretation of the usage. The point illustrated by the tar bay, both in the story and in usage, is that once you make contact with it, you cannot separate yourself from it. In the story, Br'er Fox uses the tar baby to trap Br'er Rabbit. Br'er Rabbit only gets stuck when he loses his patience and strikes the tar baby. It would be more correct to say that "tar baby" is used to describe a situation that should best have been avoided in the first place. AusJeb ( talk) 19:09, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
(new) i've hitherto only ever heard the term "tar baby" as a racist slur, in fact i cant imagine it being used as it says it does in "modern times" as a reference to a sticky situation, that cant be too commonplace at this point, i would think americans would see it as a racially charged term.
Critics allege that this a racist term, but the reader can't evaluate the validity of that claim because no explanation of its origin is given. Were there racist overtones in the tale of Br-er Rabbitt (as there are in much of early twentieth-century American pop culture)? Is the mere link between tar and black skin the problem? Did it take on racist connotations through other quotes that aren't provided in the article?
(moved from
Talk:Tar Baby)
Shouldn't the metaphor/racial term be under Tar baby, with a dab page at Tar Baby pointing to three places (Tar baby, the novel, and Brer Rabbit)? | Mr. Darcy talk 17:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to spend way too much emphasis on the disputed 'racial' connotations. Surely it's enough to just mention them rather than give details. DJ Clayworth 17:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I would disagree. AusJeb's statement is confusing intent with effect, a frequent defense of injurious terms. Someone employing the term in its original context from the short story could still cause offense to another party, though that offense might well be unintentional. Thus, I would argue that "the negative racial meaning" in in fact "not in dispute." Clearly, many assign a pejorative and racially charged semantic weight to "tar baby." It is the provenance of this, however, that appears to still be under discussion. -- Patchyreynolds ( talk) 16:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be.
Anyone know of any previous usage of the term tar baby meaning a stick situation? -- Tekjester 20:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I have to say, I have never heard anyone...ever...refer to a black person as a tar baby. Ever. So, then, how exactly is it a racial slur? 65.27.134.29 ( talk) 21:00, 15 March 2012 (UTC)Ubiquitousnewt
I'm reverting back one sentence to reflect what we know rather that what public figures using "tar baby" have claimed. We don't know that Mitt Romney, et al. didn't know prior to their employment of the term that it had (slight or great) racial connotations. We only know that they asserted this ignorance after the utterance. Also, why is one necessarily "surprised" that public figures occassionally speak in such fashion? -- Patchyreynolds 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Had Romney been giving a scripted televised address in front of a mass audeince, yes, I would agree. Two factors about this use give me, at least, pause. First, demographically speaking, his Iowa Republicans audience was probably overwhelmingly white. Quite often, off-hand slurs tend to slip out during inadvertant "it's-just-us" moments, something true of sexist remarks, classist remarks, homophobic remarks, etc. I'm not saying Gov. Romney would be consciously racist in front of a predominantly white crowd, just that his guard would have been higher in front of one that differed in racial composition than the one he likely faced. Second, while I agree that Gov. Romney (or his aides) would never knowingly insert a racist remark in a public Q%A period, this remark was unscripted. What an incipient presidential candidate would do if left to plot out a course in advance might be very different than what happens at the spur of the moment. For instance, I don't think Muskie meant to cry on camera in '72 but it nonetheless happened (unless one buys the "melting snowflakes" theory). I agree with your assertion that "self-interested" politicians (is there any other kind?) would be loathe to make the remark openly, yet history tells us they do so all the time. We just can't know, making it, I think, a "claim" left to the reader's inference. -- Patchyreynolds 18:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Your point is well made. Thanks. --
Patchyreynolds
22:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that the article at Political correctness doesn't address the phenomenom of people getting dressed down for words they didn't know were going to be found to be racially offensive. For instance, PC doesn't mention the 'niggardly' episode. And the "water buffalo" 'investigation' blows my mind. So... where is the article that describes the mine field that is English, and points to all the words you shouldn't use? Shenme 22:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Should the repeated POV changes to the "Notable Recent Usages" section be considered vandalism?
After seeing what he is doing on the Mitt Romney page, I think it is safe to refer to his actions as vandalism. - 71.216.165.231 23:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The example Kerry quote should stay. He wasn't quoting anyone in particular, he was paraphrasing the advice of "everybody on my staff, everybody I knew." Surely, they didn't all use the term 'tar baby'. To the extent any of them did, Kerry (another Massachusetts statewide officeholder) felt the term appropriate to reuse to summarize all their advice. It's also a good example of changing perception over the years; clearly the tendency to find offense in the term has grown since 1992. Gojomo 09:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems as if the page is now suffering from the sheer weight of quotes, one that has actually buried the rather succinct definition of the term. Are all noteworthy? Can we remove some of these? Are folks in favor of keeping an ideological balance (Ivins and Kerry + Will and Romney), listing the most recent, etc. ?-- Patchyreynolds 16:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I tightened up the quotes along the lines mentioned in a previous post, but did want to raise a question about the dates of usage. I guess I'm wondering precisely when the term began to assume racial connotations. It it was only recently it would seem to millitate against inclusion of older quotes, if only because the speaker would have to be clairvoyant to foresee a later etymological development. Like many, however, I only know the term in its "Brer Rabbit" usage until lately. Anyone have any information on this? -- Patchyreynolds 16:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear in this article whether the term African American is intended to refer specifically to Americans of African descent or to blacks or people of color generally. Since the Wikipedia is available world-wide, not only in the U.S., I suggest that unless a reference to people of color is specific to American POC, it would be better to use another term: POC, Black, whatever. 24.199.88.57 13:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Can anybody provide an explanation of why "tar baby" is considered a racial slur at all -- aside from obvious conclusions that one could draw from the denotative definition? Or examples where it *was* used in a racist context? I've never heard it used in such a way that it suggested any kind of racial bias, and I can't find any proof that it generally carries any. MMZach 07:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Good question..... is it because a tar baby is a human figure covered in tar and tar is black? Can anybody find an internet source that does not reference current news sources? 68.190.48.20 14:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
But there are two separate issues at hand: 1) Do many find the term racist and/or offensive?; and 2) If so, how did the term come to acquire this correlation? The first issue appears indisputable at this point is well-documented in this article. Once Republican civil rights figures and the head of the Boston chapter of NAACP speak out against the offensiveness of the term, it's established. In effect, the proof of its offensiveness lies in the hue and cry raised upon its employment. (Unless, of course, one could substantiate with evidence that such remonstration is all part of a ginned up scheme.) Also, the fact that Romney and McCain apologize for their usage acknowledges the offensiveness of the term, their motive or ignorance of this notwithstanding. Continually qualifying the fact that it is an offensive term with the phrase "for some" elides the fact that offensiveness, by its very nature, is never total. It would be just as fair to say, "A burning cross is considered offensive by some." One may argue about the motive or foreknowledge around the censured utterances--and I don't think this article has ever claimed that Romney, Kerry, et al attempted to offend--but the term clearly has reached the status of offense (for some!). The second question, revolving around how the folktale figure acquired this semantic linkage is the question still ripe for examination and scholarship. I would imagine it lies in intertwined reasons joining nineteenth-century literature, national magazine culture, racial stereotypes, literary representations of "Negro" dialect, and yes, the associations with a Disney film now widely condemned for its soft-pedaled racism. Any cultural historians or etymologists with some time on their hands? -- Patchyreynolds 19:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Saying "burning a cross is offensive to some" is a true statement, but you're omitting some nuance and using it as a false comparison. Burning a cross is a symbol of a terroristic threat to blacks. Not everyone objects to the intention behind the symbol (such as white supremacists for example) but we all agree on what that symbol means. The tar-baby thing is different... not everybody agrees that the word means something offensive. In fact, nobody can produce a single documented instance of anyone ever using this term to degrade black people. Not even the people offended by the term can explain what the supposed offense is; essentially it's just 'we don't like it, don't use it'. If they can't explain the offense, this is just trying to enforce arbitrary speech codes on others. 68.219.43.96 01:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I doubt that most white supremacists would embrace the term "terrorism" for this tactic, thus defusing the notion that "we all agree" on your reading of the symbol. (Nor, as a matter of fact do most members of white supremacist movements use your label, preferring instead "white pride.") And if you re-read my earlier comment you'll see that you've once again combined what I argue are two separate point to address. The first is whether or not "tar baby" is offensive. The simple fact that so many are offended by the term affirms ipso facto its offensiveness. You might personally find a film dull, might not understand its thrilling quality, might not be able to sensically trace the narrative thru-line creating suspense, but if a bunch of audience members scream, it's scary (or at least retty darn startling). The second issue, the one still ripe for investigation and documentation, is the provenance of this offense. It might be that the folklore character represents the corporeal manifestation of racist stereotypes (e.g., black, dangerous, polluting to the body, etc.). It might be Harris' representation of dialect. It might be its linkage to the Disney film or the antebellum American South. It might be a combination of these or something else altogether. It might even be that members of certain interest groups originally created and subsequently fanned the offensiveness of the term to further their own agenda. All of these could be investigated and documented. The fact that the article as it currently stands does not yet lay out this evolution should in no way eclipse the fact that the term clearly has developed negative racial connotations. As well, intent of use only becomes an issue when notations of use presume a motive. If the article claimed that Sen. McCain meant to debase African Americans, well, yes, we'd have to prove that he deployed "tar baby" with intent to harm. Other than that, whether or not someone intends it to offend in no way mitigates its offensiveness, only their culpability. (And as a side note, though I don't believe the senator meant to use the term offensively, he had to have heard of the earlier Romney flap. It might have slipped his mind, but it's unlikely that he was wholly unaware of the turmoil the term previously caused one of his chief rivals.) Finally, it's not "their" job to "explain the offense" (whoever "they" might be for you); it's our job as writers of the article. This article isn't about the justness of a certain position, but about the why's and wherefore's. -- Patchyreynolds 02:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard the term "tar baby" used to refer to a black person (offensively, or otherwise). Does anyone have an actual quote showing such usage? I'm starting to think it's just an urban myth. The term has always just meant "a difficult, inescapable situation" to me. 69.159.196.72 ( talk) 20:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Some editors seem to find her viewpoint objectable. I've put it back in unless anyone can come up with a reason why reporting her POV is invalid. 68.190.48.20 16:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion.... under the "Controversial usage" section how about we keep the first paragraph and remove all the bloody quotes and just keep the links to the various articles as references? As it stands now the article breaks NPOV by making an argument that Republicans are being targeted for using the term tar-baby but not democrates. However, a simple Google news search shows numerous hits were Republicans used the term without controversy and where some Democratics were admonished. 68.190.48.20 05:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
A current read of Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest sent me here. I cannot imagine a more brilliant metaphor for the US military fiasco in Vietnam than the author's repeated use of tar baby. What a shame to abandon such a useful literary device for the sake of some unsupported claims of racial slurs. Cowardly, to say the least. G13can 14:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Use "tar pit" instead. I ran across this article whilst considering the use of "tar baby" in an article and wondered if that was wise. I have certainly heard "tar baby" used as an ethnic insult, and having no reason to cling to the old usage have no problems moving on to a modified one. MrG 4.227.248.239 21:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The word "quagmire" also works well in that context. CallidoraBlack ( talk) 21:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
This is not of particular import, so I didn't add it to the article, but the original Quake computer game (1996) had a creature called a "Spawn" that used the internal name "tarbaby" for its script and 3-D model. If someone wants to add a modern usage or pop-culture section, this would make a good addition. Here's one source: [2]. More official sources (like the actual QuakeC script code) can be found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thatfield977 ( talk • contribs) 17:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
The racist connotations of the term tar baby seem to be largely a US phenomenon. I have not been able to identify non-US racist overtones in a moderately detailed search, whereas use of the phrase to indicate an intractable "sticky situation" is not uncommon in British and Australian English. I think there should be some acknowledgement that there are apparently cultural differences in the controverisal nature of this phrase between English speaking nations. As far as I can make out, the phrase is entirely uncontroversial in British and Australian English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 03:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
This seems to be a Catch-22: if nobody has ever considered such an implication, why would there be such a reference? All the controversy listed seems to come from US sources. The context of the references makes it clear that there is no racist implication intended by the writers. The appearance of the phrase in mainstream media such as The Australian newspaper without any comment is strong evidence that no racist intention has been understood by the readership. I think the absence of non-US based controversy is an important point to be made in some fahion, otherwise this article presents a very unbalanced US-centric view of the phrase and is frankly misleading to those in other English speaking countries. Perhaps you can accept a compromise wording? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 05:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is one reference which seems to indicate that the racist connotation is limited to a subset of American English speakers: http://www.bookerrising.net/2011/08/john-mcwhorter-is-tar-baby-actually.html
As a non-American, I had no idea until I looked into this topic just now the controversy and tumultuous recent history associated with this phrase. I think there needs to be some way to inform readers that this is a non-existent issue outside the US. It is, of course, impossible to "prove" such a negative, other than by reference to mainstream usage apparently devoid of racist intent and unnassociated with any negative community reaction. To put the issue the other way: in Imaginania there has been terrible controversy associated with the phrase "it takes two to tango", which is considered offensive to conjoined twins. Find a source which indicates directly that this phrase is not offensive to conjoined twins in US English....you will simply have to rely on the same sort of evidence I am putting forward. I understand that there are clearly contending US sociopolitical agendas here, but it is grossly unbalanced that there should be no recognition of the fact that all of this controversy comes from one English speaking country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 05:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
The reference to the meaning of tar baby from the Oxford dictionary including the reference to racist usage is simply untrue and I have deleted it. I have checked my print copies of both the OED and the Oxford D of E as well as the online version. The full entry for the latter is pasted below.
tar baby
▶noun (informal) a difficult problem which is only aggravated by attempts to solve it.
- ORIGIN with allusion to the doll smeared with tar as a trap for Brer Rabbit, in J. C. Harris's Uncle Remus.
How to cite this entry:
"tar baby noun" Oxford Dictionary of English. Edited by Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2010. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. University of Western Australia. 27 September 2011 <
http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t140.e0845040> — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.143.87.254 (
talk)
08:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Can someone please provide the original reference for this? I have yet to see this in a primary source (i.e. something published by Oxford University Press, rather than these second hand uses. If there is a statement about what is in the OED, it should reference some form or other of the OED (not Time Magazine!). There are obviously numerous forms of the OED (and variants) out there- perhaps an appropriate statement is one which indicates which definitions are in which editions/versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 00:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
As a folklorist (among other things), I am fascinated by the way tar bay stories are found around the world. Then there is the hubbub about the changed modern use of the term. So is it helpful to include a link to a different children's book? I don't perceive a link to the core of this article. Pete unseth ( talk) 13:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Tar-baby seems to be quickly becoming a term in computing relating to a hostile honeypot that ties up a hostile robotic probe by either giving it endless pages of data to feast on, or feeding it with an extremely low bandwidth bitstream that ties it up waiting for the connection to close. Quite akin to the original story of the Tar-baby in the Uncle Remus stories. Does anyone else concur this would be appropriate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AE7EC ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I notice the term is used here sometimes in caps sometimes in lower case and sometimes hyphenated. I think it would improve the page to decide on the typography and stick to it.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Tar-Baby. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind an explicit citation - with month and year - or, better, a working link - to the Robert Roosevelt prototype of the Tar Baby story. Sussmanbern ( talk) 05:58, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
The claim that Espinosa examined 267 versions of the tar-baby story is quite misleading. In the article referenced, Espinosa, without any evidence at all, discusses the variations between stories. This is a crucial difference, the article listed does not actually discuss any particular 'version' of the tar baby story at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.180.38 ( talk) 19:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
The claim made is still grossly misleading and not supported by the source referenced. Espinosa has examined specific examples elsewhere, for example his 1938 article in the journal 'Folklore', but he doesn't come close to examining 267 different stories. 137.222.125.33 ( talk) 12:26, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I have updated it although I still think it is misleading. This is my first time editing Wikipedia so if someone could give me some help that would be good. I think it should emphasise the fact that Espinosa presents no evidence at all of any of the stories he supposedly possesses in the article that has been referenced. This article currently reads like there is a scholarly consensus on the tarbaby story and hundreds of other stories originating from India. A few studies from comparative mythologists in the 1930s absolutely does not justify such a view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.180.38 ( talk) 16:21, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tar-Baby article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
The article states that "[t]he only way to solve such a situation is by separation." This seems to be a misinterpretation of the usage. The point illustrated by the tar bay, both in the story and in usage, is that once you make contact with it, you cannot separate yourself from it. In the story, Br'er Fox uses the tar baby to trap Br'er Rabbit. Br'er Rabbit only gets stuck when he loses his patience and strikes the tar baby. It would be more correct to say that "tar baby" is used to describe a situation that should best have been avoided in the first place. AusJeb ( talk) 19:09, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
(new) i've hitherto only ever heard the term "tar baby" as a racist slur, in fact i cant imagine it being used as it says it does in "modern times" as a reference to a sticky situation, that cant be too commonplace at this point, i would think americans would see it as a racially charged term.
Critics allege that this a racist term, but the reader can't evaluate the validity of that claim because no explanation of its origin is given. Were there racist overtones in the tale of Br-er Rabbitt (as there are in much of early twentieth-century American pop culture)? Is the mere link between tar and black skin the problem? Did it take on racist connotations through other quotes that aren't provided in the article?
(moved from
Talk:Tar Baby)
Shouldn't the metaphor/racial term be under Tar baby, with a dab page at Tar Baby pointing to three places (Tar baby, the novel, and Brer Rabbit)? | Mr. Darcy talk 17:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to spend way too much emphasis on the disputed 'racial' connotations. Surely it's enough to just mention them rather than give details. DJ Clayworth 17:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I would disagree. AusJeb's statement is confusing intent with effect, a frequent defense of injurious terms. Someone employing the term in its original context from the short story could still cause offense to another party, though that offense might well be unintentional. Thus, I would argue that "the negative racial meaning" in in fact "not in dispute." Clearly, many assign a pejorative and racially charged semantic weight to "tar baby." It is the provenance of this, however, that appears to still be under discussion. -- Patchyreynolds ( talk) 16:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be.
Anyone know of any previous usage of the term tar baby meaning a stick situation? -- Tekjester 20:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I have to say, I have never heard anyone...ever...refer to a black person as a tar baby. Ever. So, then, how exactly is it a racial slur? 65.27.134.29 ( talk) 21:00, 15 March 2012 (UTC)Ubiquitousnewt
I'm reverting back one sentence to reflect what we know rather that what public figures using "tar baby" have claimed. We don't know that Mitt Romney, et al. didn't know prior to their employment of the term that it had (slight or great) racial connotations. We only know that they asserted this ignorance after the utterance. Also, why is one necessarily "surprised" that public figures occassionally speak in such fashion? -- Patchyreynolds 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Had Romney been giving a scripted televised address in front of a mass audeince, yes, I would agree. Two factors about this use give me, at least, pause. First, demographically speaking, his Iowa Republicans audience was probably overwhelmingly white. Quite often, off-hand slurs tend to slip out during inadvertant "it's-just-us" moments, something true of sexist remarks, classist remarks, homophobic remarks, etc. I'm not saying Gov. Romney would be consciously racist in front of a predominantly white crowd, just that his guard would have been higher in front of one that differed in racial composition than the one he likely faced. Second, while I agree that Gov. Romney (or his aides) would never knowingly insert a racist remark in a public Q%A period, this remark was unscripted. What an incipient presidential candidate would do if left to plot out a course in advance might be very different than what happens at the spur of the moment. For instance, I don't think Muskie meant to cry on camera in '72 but it nonetheless happened (unless one buys the "melting snowflakes" theory). I agree with your assertion that "self-interested" politicians (is there any other kind?) would be loathe to make the remark openly, yet history tells us they do so all the time. We just can't know, making it, I think, a "claim" left to the reader's inference. -- Patchyreynolds 18:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Your point is well made. Thanks. --
Patchyreynolds
22:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that the article at Political correctness doesn't address the phenomenom of people getting dressed down for words they didn't know were going to be found to be racially offensive. For instance, PC doesn't mention the 'niggardly' episode. And the "water buffalo" 'investigation' blows my mind. So... where is the article that describes the mine field that is English, and points to all the words you shouldn't use? Shenme 22:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Should the repeated POV changes to the "Notable Recent Usages" section be considered vandalism?
After seeing what he is doing on the Mitt Romney page, I think it is safe to refer to his actions as vandalism. - 71.216.165.231 23:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The example Kerry quote should stay. He wasn't quoting anyone in particular, he was paraphrasing the advice of "everybody on my staff, everybody I knew." Surely, they didn't all use the term 'tar baby'. To the extent any of them did, Kerry (another Massachusetts statewide officeholder) felt the term appropriate to reuse to summarize all their advice. It's also a good example of changing perception over the years; clearly the tendency to find offense in the term has grown since 1992. Gojomo 09:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems as if the page is now suffering from the sheer weight of quotes, one that has actually buried the rather succinct definition of the term. Are all noteworthy? Can we remove some of these? Are folks in favor of keeping an ideological balance (Ivins and Kerry + Will and Romney), listing the most recent, etc. ?-- Patchyreynolds 16:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I tightened up the quotes along the lines mentioned in a previous post, but did want to raise a question about the dates of usage. I guess I'm wondering precisely when the term began to assume racial connotations. It it was only recently it would seem to millitate against inclusion of older quotes, if only because the speaker would have to be clairvoyant to foresee a later etymological development. Like many, however, I only know the term in its "Brer Rabbit" usage until lately. Anyone have any information on this? -- Patchyreynolds 16:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear in this article whether the term African American is intended to refer specifically to Americans of African descent or to blacks or people of color generally. Since the Wikipedia is available world-wide, not only in the U.S., I suggest that unless a reference to people of color is specific to American POC, it would be better to use another term: POC, Black, whatever. 24.199.88.57 13:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Can anybody provide an explanation of why "tar baby" is considered a racial slur at all -- aside from obvious conclusions that one could draw from the denotative definition? Or examples where it *was* used in a racist context? I've never heard it used in such a way that it suggested any kind of racial bias, and I can't find any proof that it generally carries any. MMZach 07:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Good question..... is it because a tar baby is a human figure covered in tar and tar is black? Can anybody find an internet source that does not reference current news sources? 68.190.48.20 14:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
But there are two separate issues at hand: 1) Do many find the term racist and/or offensive?; and 2) If so, how did the term come to acquire this correlation? The first issue appears indisputable at this point is well-documented in this article. Once Republican civil rights figures and the head of the Boston chapter of NAACP speak out against the offensiveness of the term, it's established. In effect, the proof of its offensiveness lies in the hue and cry raised upon its employment. (Unless, of course, one could substantiate with evidence that such remonstration is all part of a ginned up scheme.) Also, the fact that Romney and McCain apologize for their usage acknowledges the offensiveness of the term, their motive or ignorance of this notwithstanding. Continually qualifying the fact that it is an offensive term with the phrase "for some" elides the fact that offensiveness, by its very nature, is never total. It would be just as fair to say, "A burning cross is considered offensive by some." One may argue about the motive or foreknowledge around the censured utterances--and I don't think this article has ever claimed that Romney, Kerry, et al attempted to offend--but the term clearly has reached the status of offense (for some!). The second question, revolving around how the folktale figure acquired this semantic linkage is the question still ripe for examination and scholarship. I would imagine it lies in intertwined reasons joining nineteenth-century literature, national magazine culture, racial stereotypes, literary representations of "Negro" dialect, and yes, the associations with a Disney film now widely condemned for its soft-pedaled racism. Any cultural historians or etymologists with some time on their hands? -- Patchyreynolds 19:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Saying "burning a cross is offensive to some" is a true statement, but you're omitting some nuance and using it as a false comparison. Burning a cross is a symbol of a terroristic threat to blacks. Not everyone objects to the intention behind the symbol (such as white supremacists for example) but we all agree on what that symbol means. The tar-baby thing is different... not everybody agrees that the word means something offensive. In fact, nobody can produce a single documented instance of anyone ever using this term to degrade black people. Not even the people offended by the term can explain what the supposed offense is; essentially it's just 'we don't like it, don't use it'. If they can't explain the offense, this is just trying to enforce arbitrary speech codes on others. 68.219.43.96 01:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I doubt that most white supremacists would embrace the term "terrorism" for this tactic, thus defusing the notion that "we all agree" on your reading of the symbol. (Nor, as a matter of fact do most members of white supremacist movements use your label, preferring instead "white pride.") And if you re-read my earlier comment you'll see that you've once again combined what I argue are two separate point to address. The first is whether or not "tar baby" is offensive. The simple fact that so many are offended by the term affirms ipso facto its offensiveness. You might personally find a film dull, might not understand its thrilling quality, might not be able to sensically trace the narrative thru-line creating suspense, but if a bunch of audience members scream, it's scary (or at least retty darn startling). The second issue, the one still ripe for investigation and documentation, is the provenance of this offense. It might be that the folklore character represents the corporeal manifestation of racist stereotypes (e.g., black, dangerous, polluting to the body, etc.). It might be Harris' representation of dialect. It might be its linkage to the Disney film or the antebellum American South. It might be a combination of these or something else altogether. It might even be that members of certain interest groups originally created and subsequently fanned the offensiveness of the term to further their own agenda. All of these could be investigated and documented. The fact that the article as it currently stands does not yet lay out this evolution should in no way eclipse the fact that the term clearly has developed negative racial connotations. As well, intent of use only becomes an issue when notations of use presume a motive. If the article claimed that Sen. McCain meant to debase African Americans, well, yes, we'd have to prove that he deployed "tar baby" with intent to harm. Other than that, whether or not someone intends it to offend in no way mitigates its offensiveness, only their culpability. (And as a side note, though I don't believe the senator meant to use the term offensively, he had to have heard of the earlier Romney flap. It might have slipped his mind, but it's unlikely that he was wholly unaware of the turmoil the term previously caused one of his chief rivals.) Finally, it's not "their" job to "explain the offense" (whoever "they" might be for you); it's our job as writers of the article. This article isn't about the justness of a certain position, but about the why's and wherefore's. -- Patchyreynolds 02:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard the term "tar baby" used to refer to a black person (offensively, or otherwise). Does anyone have an actual quote showing such usage? I'm starting to think it's just an urban myth. The term has always just meant "a difficult, inescapable situation" to me. 69.159.196.72 ( talk) 20:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Some editors seem to find her viewpoint objectable. I've put it back in unless anyone can come up with a reason why reporting her POV is invalid. 68.190.48.20 16:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion.... under the "Controversial usage" section how about we keep the first paragraph and remove all the bloody quotes and just keep the links to the various articles as references? As it stands now the article breaks NPOV by making an argument that Republicans are being targeted for using the term tar-baby but not democrates. However, a simple Google news search shows numerous hits were Republicans used the term without controversy and where some Democratics were admonished. 68.190.48.20 05:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
A current read of Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest sent me here. I cannot imagine a more brilliant metaphor for the US military fiasco in Vietnam than the author's repeated use of tar baby. What a shame to abandon such a useful literary device for the sake of some unsupported claims of racial slurs. Cowardly, to say the least. G13can 14:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Use "tar pit" instead. I ran across this article whilst considering the use of "tar baby" in an article and wondered if that was wise. I have certainly heard "tar baby" used as an ethnic insult, and having no reason to cling to the old usage have no problems moving on to a modified one. MrG 4.227.248.239 21:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The word "quagmire" also works well in that context. CallidoraBlack ( talk) 21:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
This is not of particular import, so I didn't add it to the article, but the original Quake computer game (1996) had a creature called a "Spawn" that used the internal name "tarbaby" for its script and 3-D model. If someone wants to add a modern usage or pop-culture section, this would make a good addition. Here's one source: [2]. More official sources (like the actual QuakeC script code) can be found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thatfield977 ( talk • contribs) 17:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
The racist connotations of the term tar baby seem to be largely a US phenomenon. I have not been able to identify non-US racist overtones in a moderately detailed search, whereas use of the phrase to indicate an intractable "sticky situation" is not uncommon in British and Australian English. I think there should be some acknowledgement that there are apparently cultural differences in the controverisal nature of this phrase between English speaking nations. As far as I can make out, the phrase is entirely uncontroversial in British and Australian English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 03:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
This seems to be a Catch-22: if nobody has ever considered such an implication, why would there be such a reference? All the controversy listed seems to come from US sources. The context of the references makes it clear that there is no racist implication intended by the writers. The appearance of the phrase in mainstream media such as The Australian newspaper without any comment is strong evidence that no racist intention has been understood by the readership. I think the absence of non-US based controversy is an important point to be made in some fahion, otherwise this article presents a very unbalanced US-centric view of the phrase and is frankly misleading to those in other English speaking countries. Perhaps you can accept a compromise wording? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 05:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is one reference which seems to indicate that the racist connotation is limited to a subset of American English speakers: http://www.bookerrising.net/2011/08/john-mcwhorter-is-tar-baby-actually.html
As a non-American, I had no idea until I looked into this topic just now the controversy and tumultuous recent history associated with this phrase. I think there needs to be some way to inform readers that this is a non-existent issue outside the US. It is, of course, impossible to "prove" such a negative, other than by reference to mainstream usage apparently devoid of racist intent and unnassociated with any negative community reaction. To put the issue the other way: in Imaginania there has been terrible controversy associated with the phrase "it takes two to tango", which is considered offensive to conjoined twins. Find a source which indicates directly that this phrase is not offensive to conjoined twins in US English....you will simply have to rely on the same sort of evidence I am putting forward. I understand that there are clearly contending US sociopolitical agendas here, but it is grossly unbalanced that there should be no recognition of the fact that all of this controversy comes from one English speaking country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 05:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
The reference to the meaning of tar baby from the Oxford dictionary including the reference to racist usage is simply untrue and I have deleted it. I have checked my print copies of both the OED and the Oxford D of E as well as the online version. The full entry for the latter is pasted below.
tar baby
▶noun (informal) a difficult problem which is only aggravated by attempts to solve it.
- ORIGIN with allusion to the doll smeared with tar as a trap for Brer Rabbit, in J. C. Harris's Uncle Remus.
How to cite this entry:
"tar baby noun" Oxford Dictionary of English. Edited by Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2010. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. University of Western Australia. 27 September 2011 <
http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t140.e0845040> — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.143.87.254 (
talk)
08:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Can someone please provide the original reference for this? I have yet to see this in a primary source (i.e. something published by Oxford University Press, rather than these second hand uses. If there is a statement about what is in the OED, it should reference some form or other of the OED (not Time Magazine!). There are obviously numerous forms of the OED (and variants) out there- perhaps an appropriate statement is one which indicates which definitions are in which editions/versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 ( talk) 00:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
As a folklorist (among other things), I am fascinated by the way tar bay stories are found around the world. Then there is the hubbub about the changed modern use of the term. So is it helpful to include a link to a different children's book? I don't perceive a link to the core of this article. Pete unseth ( talk) 13:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Tar-baby seems to be quickly becoming a term in computing relating to a hostile honeypot that ties up a hostile robotic probe by either giving it endless pages of data to feast on, or feeding it with an extremely low bandwidth bitstream that ties it up waiting for the connection to close. Quite akin to the original story of the Tar-baby in the Uncle Remus stories. Does anyone else concur this would be appropriate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AE7EC ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I notice the term is used here sometimes in caps sometimes in lower case and sometimes hyphenated. I think it would improve the page to decide on the typography and stick to it.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Tar-Baby. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind an explicit citation - with month and year - or, better, a working link - to the Robert Roosevelt prototype of the Tar Baby story. Sussmanbern ( talk) 05:58, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
The claim that Espinosa examined 267 versions of the tar-baby story is quite misleading. In the article referenced, Espinosa, without any evidence at all, discusses the variations between stories. This is a crucial difference, the article listed does not actually discuss any particular 'version' of the tar baby story at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.180.38 ( talk) 19:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
The claim made is still grossly misleading and not supported by the source referenced. Espinosa has examined specific examples elsewhere, for example his 1938 article in the journal 'Folklore', but he doesn't come close to examining 267 different stories. 137.222.125.33 ( talk) 12:26, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I have updated it although I still think it is misleading. This is my first time editing Wikipedia so if someone could give me some help that would be good. I think it should emphasise the fact that Espinosa presents no evidence at all of any of the stories he supposedly possesses in the article that has been referenced. This article currently reads like there is a scholarly consensus on the tarbaby story and hundreds of other stories originating from India. A few studies from comparative mythologists in the 1930s absolutely does not justify such a view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.180.38 ( talk) 16:21, 16 December 2018 (UTC)