This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This was reverted because there was no discussion about it:
So is this supported by the source or are there other issues? Constructive input, and sincere debate is welcome and encouraged. - Davidelah ( talk) 17:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
What is the reason for this edit: [1] ?! Unflavoured ( talk) 05:21, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This is in reference to Davidelah's inclusion of "Sunni Islam" in the title of the the "16th-century Spain" subsection, here and here. His reasoning was "it's about sunni islam". While it might seem that "Twelver Shi'a Islam" is an appropriate title for its section (since Taqiyya has a central place in Shi'a Islam and has been apparently backed by their mainstream scholars for their own reasons and conditions), I find a similar "Sunni Islam" title to be entirely misleading and questionable as Taqiyya doesn't hold the same place in Sunni jurisprudence as it does in Shi'a (in fact, all works listed under the further reading section are on Shi'a Islam and its branches). Moreover, it doesn't appear that Al-Wahrani's views represented his Maliki fiqh school, let alone Sunni Islam.
In short, this "jump" from Al-Wahrani to Sunni Islam is most likely an WP:OR (or WP:SYNTH to be specific) by Davidelah and I think the section needs a better title. Al-Andalusi ( talk) 01:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Unflavoured, regarding the sub-section's clear content. Titling it with Sunni-Islam is misleading, as it's not Sunni Islam in the 19th century, but an incident of a particular group of Sunnis in Spain.
Regarding its location, we can't put that under Sunni POV alone, according to
WP:DUE. We'll need to bring tons of opposite incidents to balance it. Shia Islam is covered in the "Lead" and "Origin", while Sunni Islam is covered in its own section. Therefore, whatever is left are all historical examples, and should stay that way, IMO.
~ AdvertAdam
talk 03:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
One bracket of the reference in the quote is out of place. I do not know how to fix this. Help please. Unflavoured ( talk) 05:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Taqiyya is a particular type of dissimulation for a specific purpose. The source does not provide any evidence that Khomeini was practicing taqiyya. Fat&Happy ( talk) 02:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps we should discuss condensing the section instead of flat out deleting 2/3 of it ?! Unflavoured ( talk) 03:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Fath Bari quote does not contain any direct reference to Taqiya and adding it is WP:SYNT and OR. I am going to delete it.-- Penom ( talk) 13:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Some Sunni sources put emphasis on the fact that a person who prefers to proclaim their faith in the face of death will have a greater reward than they who deny their faith to save their lives. For example, in Fath al-Bari, the Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, it is stated that: [2]
أجمعوا على أن من أكره على الكفر واختار القتل أنه أعظم أجرا عند الله ممن اختار الرخصة ، وأما غير الكفر فإن أكره على أكل الخنزير وشرب الخمر مثلا فالفعل أولى
Which translates to:
There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license [to deny one's faith under duress], but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that [instead of choosing death].
{{
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I added researched and source cited information that was deleted by someone in minutes.
This is what I added:
Copy/pasted copyright violation redacted. As mentioned below, content can be found at http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war Fat&Happy ( talk) 15:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
This MEF (Middle Eastern Forum) is an Islamaphobic, venomous site, completely opposed to Islam. That is the source of the above info. They would not tell the truth about Islam if they were PAID to do so!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeucePrez ( talk • contribs) 19:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.40.254 ( talk) 15:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I deleted an entire section about Muslims "accused of using Taqiya in debates". The section was unclear.
If we are referring to political leaders lying merely to gain advantage - as in propaganda statements and PR campaigns - then the term surely does not apply. The accusation would simply be that they were lying.
On the other hand, if such a leader were caught lying (or simply accused of it), and he himself invoked the principle of taqiya, that ought to go in the article.
The general subject of whether politicians ever (gasp, choke) lie when making public statements is beyond the scope of this article. But in the US at least - with its relatively high degree of accountability, politicians are right down there with lawyers and used care salesmen in terms of generally reliability and honesty. Perhaps in other places where standards of accountability are lower, things are worse. But that would have to be documented; I don't add speculation to articles: I take it out. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 18:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
There is second type of taqiyya which is not mentioned in the article. According Etan Cohlberg: There is a second type of Taqiyya which shall be called "dissimulation" which is use of word or actions tending to mislead one's opponents.
I was going to mention this type of Taqiyya but my edit was reverted. Adamrce previously asked me to provide a source that called this type of dissimulation "Taqiyya" and I did. Etan is wellknown orientalist and his view is valid. What now? -- Penom ( talk) 18:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I know about WP:SYNT. The source clearly called its example dissimulation. After all here is English wikipedia. Do not expect that all English sources use Arabic word "Taqiyya". Right? The problem is that you are not familiar enough with the topic. Concealing idea to misliead the Islam enemies is another form of Taqiyya and must be mentioned with some example-- Penom ( talk) 18:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
No such "second type of taqiyya" exists. 75.76.213.161 ( talk) 05:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
It does not give a discussion on its full meaning and completely glosses over some very pertinent information. Looking through past comments, it looks as if users discredit any and every source that would present a view different from their own. Therefore, it is clear that this is not a balanced article, but one very careful crafted to paint the practice in a positive light. 173.174.212.164 ( talk) 21:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
As many people below clearly showed that there is no such thing in Islam as Taqiyya. I wonder why the main page hasn't been updated? I object on this section "Some Sunni scholars chose to affirm Mamun's view that the Qur'an was created, in spite of their beliefs[5] though a notable exception" Reference #5 is not even a reference here. Are you just trying to shove done references to prove a false point? The reference author is discussed "Ismailis" which are not consider Sunni to begin with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asd1815 ( talk • contribs) 19:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
The article was categorised as "Islam-related controversy", and the external link section had stuff on "taqiyya libel" etc., while the article content merely gave an account of the history of the concept in Islamic sectarianism. But it is true that the term is most frequently encountered today in the context of political Islam, especially in western countries where "dissimulation" would be aimed at the non-Muslim host society.
I tried to address this by introducing a new section, into which I have incorporated the articles formerly under "external links", naturally from both camps, i.e. Muslim apologists vs. critics of Islam. It turns out that this "new" aspect of taqiyya seems to have arisen from the 2004 book by Mukaram. It also appears to me that the debate is mostly fruitless because it focusses on the semantics of "taqiyya": apologists are right that in Sunni Islam at least, "taqiyya" is only permissible when threatened by death or extreme duress. This is because the Sunnis were the political authority against whom the Shi'a practice of "taqiyya" would be directed, so their interest was to minimize its permissibility. But this is just the word taqiyya. It turns out that the (Sunni) Hanafi school of jurisprudence has a well-developed science of deception, with an entire arsenal of practices, which is directly compared in aim and subtlety to taqiyya in the 1906 article I linked. The only thing is that the term "taqiyya" would not be used by Sunni Muslims, they would just use hijal. So it seems to me that a lot of this "controversy" is due to people objecting to Mukaram's perhaps unfortunate choice of "taqiyya" as a term for this entire topic. It is fair enough to complain about the term as a poor choice, but needless to say "we don't like your word" doesn't amount to a full refutation of Murakam's book, or the people who adopted his term. -- dab (𒁳) 15:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
"Lebanese scholar Sami Makarem published the monograph Al Taqiyya Fi Al Islam ("Dissimulation in Islam"), arguing that the concept should be considered "mainstream" and ubiquitous in modern Islamic politics"
"On the other hand, the practice of deceiving another party by reservatio mentalis and misleading statements when taking an oath, while not known as taqiyya but rather as ḥiyal"
"Specific concepts of hijal include muruna (deception by feigned moderation), tawriya (deception by ambiguity) and kitman (deception by omission), which critics of political Islam suggest have been "revived" from the historical literature on Islamic jurisprudence for the application by Muslim immigrants in western countries to deceive their host societies about their aims.[41]"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Well, when given the choice to consult academic references and an anonymous guy "explaining" terms on a talkpage, I'll take the reference, but thanks.
I don't see the point of this kind of argument,
I just finished compiling a writeup on hiyal, based on actual sources. This isn't "my logic", I am just being led by what I find in expert literature.
What do you mean "Islamic courts wouldn't exist"? There is a centuries-old tradition of arguing about hiyal, beginning in the 9th century, and seamlessly stretching to the 1970s, and I did cite authorities arguing for and against it, based on academic sources discussing the topic (as oppose to cherry-picking what I would like to be true), so if you want to argue against "my logic" or "my statement", I guess you will be welcome to cite sources that I missed, in context, and build an argument from that instead of "explaining" stuff to me from a position of "authority" you seem to assume you have.
The fact that in the "contemporary debate", people have started to research this rich tradition of "legalistic trickery" in Islamic jurisprudence and write popular articles about it is hardly "beyond this article". I don't even have an opinion on which side is being more disingenious than the other, I am happy to just point people to claims and counter-claims. You will note that I did bother to do a comparatively deep literature search on the topic (the expert on the topic being Joseph Schacht), while your entire "argument" is propped up by a couple of weblinks to sites such as "islamqa.info". As long as its classics of Islamic studies vs. random weblinks, this isn't even a "discussion" in the sense of Wikipedia process. -- dab (𒁳) 09:02, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
The beginnings of Taqiyya are seen in the Bible where Abraham is denying that Sarah (Sarai) was his wife to Pharaoh for fear of being killed. He suspected that the king was attracted to his wife and as a result of his statement the king actually takes Sarah to his harem. Once again in the Bible, we see Abraham denies the same to King Abimelech that Sarah was his wife as he feared being killed by the King and princes who were attracted to his wife. Both times he says that Sarah was his sister. Once again, we see that as a result of his statement, king Abilelech takes Sarah to his harem and from reports, keeps her there for a significant period of time, as his wife. Many say that Abraham was truthful because Sarah (Sarai) was his half sister, from the same father but from a different mother. (Genesis 20:2). Then Bible tells us that Isaac, Abraham’s son tells Abimelech that Rebekah was his sister and not his wife for fear of being killed. King and princes were desirous of Rebekah. Here we see patriarchs of monotheistic religions committing Taqiyya. For fear of life and for fear of their loved ones they hide facts from potential persecutors. (Genesis 26:7)
-- The above is not condoned in the bible. Reported as history is not the same as condoned! God was very angry at Abraham for doing this! 02:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC) 119.13.236.29 ( talk)
One does not see any evidence or events reflecting Taqiyya in Jesus's life and narratives about him. And one does not see any Taqiyya in the life of Muhammad. No narratives of Taqiyya are present for either Jesus or Muhammad. (Quran 22:52)
In reality Taqiyya is a modern polemic against Muslims by well organised Islamophobic think tanks and organisations that serve anti-Muslim interests. To demonise Muslims in this regard allows them to dehumanise Muslims. (The undeniable overlap: right-wing Zionism and Islamophobia. H Aked. 29 September 2015). In reality, Taqiyya is a concept unknown in Islamic world. It is never practiced as no Muslim calls himself a non-Muslim in any Muslim country or for that matter even in a non-Muslims country. And if one accepts, albeit for argument sake only it's existence, then it is in theory for allowing someone to say that he's not a Shia when his life, family or property are at risk from persecutors of the Shia. It does not referred to in any Sunni Muslim doctrine or thought; and it may only be applicable when Shia Muslims are threatened with their lives or the lives of their family or destruction of their homes. Nowadays, it is used as an Islamophobic, anti-Muslim tool by the likes of anti-Muslim propagandist cliques like Horowitz, Pipes and Spencer et al, who have extended it in an hasbara like fashion to suggest that it means Muslims can or must lie in Christian communities (Anti-Muslim bigotry is being funded by the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd. E. Bulkin, D. Nevel on October 12, 2012). If that's the case and Muslims are threatened with their lives and lives of their families and they say that they are not Muslims then one may accept it's presence or validity. The fact is that nowhere has a single Muslim, under coercion in a Christian community, denied being a Muslim, to save his life! To suggest that it means a Muslim lies as part of a religious doctrine freely is anti-Muslim hate speech. It is a patently and purely hate preaching. It is primal Islamophobic hate. It is like saying that because Bible was used by South African apartheid whites to kill, maim and enslave blacks Bible is the manual of slavery and murder of blacks by white Christians. But, in reality, the Taqiyya talk says much more than that: it suggests that because a small group in Christianity committed holocaust against Jews in Europe, it is incumbent upon all Christians to be mass murderers or at least every Christian who claims to be Christian must be suspected of having genocidal urges. In Islamic populations across the world, the concept of Taqiyya is as elusive as the golden winged dragon sitting on a flying carpet eating hummus!
Druze and Muslim hating Christian and Islamophobic Jewish authors have written wildly about this, almost invisible, topic in Muslim life. Even if it is countenanced as a valid concept, it's source appears hundreds of years after the advent of Islam. Their aim of those who talk of Taqiyya is to create suspicion against and hate towards Muslims and Islam. To give credence to authors who are funded and published by Muslim-hating publishing houses and extremist Christian and rabidly Zionist financed groups, is to accept hate and spread hate. This concept is to promote hate that's contrived and deliberate. (Sami Makarem. Al Taqiya fil Islam; Raymond Ibrahim, Islam Translated, David Horowitz Freedom Centre)
Taqiyya, if it is a valid ecclesiastical thought in Shia doctrine, is directly brought in from the Christian Bible: from Peter 's Denial. Peter’s Denial is narrated in Mark, Mathew and Luke. Jesus predicted that before the sound of the crow next morning Peter would deny Jesus three times. Peter protests and says he'd rather die than disown Jesus. But when the time comes Peter, in fear of his life and frightened of persecution disowns Jesus three times at three different occasions. This is the example of Taqiyya, at the advent of Christianity, by the father of modern Christianity. The religious source is from Christianity and from the first seat of Catholic Church or actually in the advent of Christianity itself (John 18:15; Mark 14:69; Luke 22:54, The Holy Bible) Use only reliable sources, and in context. Random internet links can be quite dangerous, in terms of misuse of information. -- 92slim ( talk) 13:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
86.187.65.228 ( talk), please provide cited references when adding content. Original research ( WP:OR) is not allowed per wikipedia standards. Your points are acknowledged but without proper scholarly source, it is your personal opinion... and this is an encyclopedia. Otherwise, your edits can be construed as vandalism and will be deleted, possibly escalating to moderation notification. -- HafizHanif ( talk) 18:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
the problem with the author of this main article is that this author seems to be so biased that he does not have the common sense of quoting other sources or critiquing the polemical use of this islamophobic concept, now used in mainstream muslim hating narrative driven by Hororowitz et al. the author keeps on deleting and undoing a balanced approach to Taqiya in his attempt to maintain an islamophobic and muslim hating stance.
The beginnings of Taqiyya are seen in the Bible where Abraham is denying that Sarah (Sarai) was his wife to Pharaoh for fear of being killed. He suspected that the king was attracted to his wife and as a result of his statement the king actually takes Sarah to his harem. Once again in the Bible, we see Abraham denies the same to King Abimelech that Sarah was his wife as he feared being killed by the King and princes who were attracted to his wife. Both times he says that Sarah was his sister. Once again, we see that as a result of his statement, king Abilelech takes Sarah to his harem and from reports, keeps her there for a significant period of time, as his wife. Many say that Abraham was truthful because Sarah (Sarai) was his half sister, from the same father but from a different mother. (Genesis 20:2). Then Bible tells us that Isaac, Abraham’s son tells Abimelech that Rebekah was his sister and not his wife for fear of being killed. King and princes were desirous of Rebekah. Here we see patriarchs of monotheistic religions committing Taqiyya. For fear of life and for fear of their loved ones they hide facts from potential persecutors. (Genesis 26:7)
One does not see any evidence or events reflecting Taqiyya in Jesus's life and narratives about him. And one does not see any Taqiyya in the life of Muhammad. No narratives of Taqiyya are present for either Jesus or Muhammad. (Quran 22:52)
In reality Taqiyya is a modern polemic against Muslims by well organised Islamophobic think tanks and organisations that serve anti-Muslim interests. To demonise Muslims in this regard allows them to dehumanise Muslims. (The undeniable overlap: right-wing Zionism and Islamophobia. H Aked. 29 September 2015). In reality, Taqiyya is a concept unknown in Islamic world. It is never practiced as no Muslim calls himself a non-Muslim in any Muslim country or for that matter even in a non-Muslims country. And if one accepts, albeit for argument sake only it's existence, then it is in theory for allowing someone to say that he's not a Shia when his life, family or property are at risk from persecutors of the Shia. It does not referred to in any Sunni Muslim doctrine or thought; and it may only be applicable when Shia Muslims are threatened with their lives or the lives of their family or destruction of their homes. Nowadays, it is used as an Islamophobic, anti-Muslim tool by the likes of anti-Muslim propagandist cliques like Horowitz, Pipes and Spencer et al, who have extended it in an hasbara like fashion to suggest that it means Muslims can or must lie in Christian communities (Anti-Muslim bigotry is being funded by the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd. E. Bulkin, D. Nevel on October 12, 2012). If that's the case and Muslims are threatened with their lives and lives of their families and they say that they are not Muslims then one may accept it's presence or validity. The fact is that nowhere has a single Muslim, under coercion in a Christian community, denied being a Muslim, to save his life! To suggest that it means a Muslim lies as part of a religious doctrine freely is anti-Muslim hate speech. It is a patently and purely hate preaching. It is primal Islamophobic hate. It is like saying that because Bible was used by South African apartheid whites to kill, maim and enslave blacks Bible is the manual of slavery and murder of blacks by white Christians. But, in reality, the Taqiyya talk says much more than that: it suggests that because a small group in Christianity committed holocaust against Jews in Europe, it is incumbent upon all Christians to be mass murderers or at least every Christian who claims to be Christian must be suspected of having genocidal urges. In Islamic populations across the world, the concept of Taqiyya is as elusive as the golden winged dragon sitting on a flying carpet eating hummus!
Druze and Muslim hating Christian and Islamophobic Jewish authors have written wildly about this, almost invisible, topic in Muslim life. Even if it is countenanced as a valid concept, it's source appears hundreds of years after the advent of Islam. Their aim of those who talk of Taqiyya is to create suspicion against and hate towards Muslims and Islam. To give credence to authors who are funded and published by Muslim-hating publishing houses and extremist Christian and rabidly Zionist financed groups, is to accept hate and spread hate. This concept is to promote hate that's contrived and deliberate. (Sami Makarem. Al Taqiya fil Islam; Raymond Ibrahim, Islam Translated, David Horowitz Freedom Centre)
Taqiyya, if it is a valid ecclesiastical thought in Shia doctrine, is directly brought in from the Christian Bible: from Peter 's Denial. Peter’s Denial is narrated in Mark, Mathew and Luke. Jesus predicted that before the sound of the crow next morning Peter would deny Jesus three times. Peter protests and says he'd rather die than disown Jesus. But when the time comes Peter, in fear of his life and frightened of persecution disowns Jesus three times at three different occasions. This is the example of Taqiyya, at the advent of Christianity, by the father of modern Christianity. The religious source is from Christianity and from the first seat of Catholic Church or actually in the advent of Christianity itself (John 18:15; Mark 14:69; Luke 22:54, The Holy Bible)
thank you for your almost sir Humphrey like quotations in bureaucracy to make a valid refutation of your article almost impossible. Bible and Torah are clear in stating that Abraham and Issac committed Taqiya to save their lives and in that process allowed their wives to be admitted to other people's beds and harems. In the presence of main religious texts where patriarchs of religion are committing Taqiya, you are suggesting that unless it is supported by other followers of these prophets, it cannot be mentioned? That is almost laughable. why do i need to add other scholars' comments when prophets themselves and holy books, the sources of judaism and Christianity are making these statements! it is almost comical for you to even suggest that. Primary sources are excluded from wikipedia especially when we are talking of religious topics? you wish to exclude Moses and Issac from discussion about religion? in regards zionist funding, is that not a valid aspect that Taqiyia is being used ad nauseum as anti muslim hate project, more recently in the mainstream politics of the USA? do not add to your precious article if you wish it to be the what it is, your article, but please be aware that this is a biased, unbalanced, dangerous and dare i say a dishonest article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.123.88.153 ( talk) 01:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
the main article is academically biased, intellectually bordering on dishonest and attributes anti muslim and anti shia sentiments without evidence onto the mass of muslims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.123.88.153 ( talk) 00:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
first of all, all statements are referenced. you should read the references in the Bible, The Torah and other articles mentioned, by established authors. so the repetition that i should reference my statements must stop as it is becoming a oft repeated fib. my statements are referenced. my opinions are logical conclusions that are intuitive or natural deductions from the quotes. it is like 1+1=2. secondly, i am doing exactly as you have set out in your 'article' on taqiya: expanding it and finding its source. if you wish to stop at a few hundred years after the advent of islam in terms of finding its practice, then thats your narrow and dare i say, inclinational, choice. As far as i am concerned, i am saying: to lie to save your life, as defined by your oft and ad nauseum quoted authors in the 'article' you wrote, is as far old and beyond Islam, Christianity and possibly judaism. in judaism it is called Moses' denial, in Christianity it is called Peter's denial and in shiaism it is called taqiya. you have mentioned 'to lie' in your references about Islam and Muslims, in particular. and so it should not be surprising for you to see me describe lies that are religiously told in Judaism and in Christianity, and the practice of lies to save one's life and the concept of doing it are the same. your analogy is not valid and mine it, if you read and compare. accusations are made on evidence available and the evidence available in your 'article' is attracting accusations of imbalance, bias and lack of awareness, and from your refusal to accept my or any other additions, a core inclination that warrants further examination. It is a tragedy that your 'article' has been quoted or appeared in press without any of our comments to bring balance to the muslim/islam depricatory tone and tenor of the piece. i think i am done with you and with this 'article'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.105.200.100 ( talk) 22:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This was reverted because there was no discussion about it:
So is this supported by the source or are there other issues? Constructive input, and sincere debate is welcome and encouraged. - Davidelah ( talk) 17:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
What is the reason for this edit: [1] ?! Unflavoured ( talk) 05:21, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This is in reference to Davidelah's inclusion of "Sunni Islam" in the title of the the "16th-century Spain" subsection, here and here. His reasoning was "it's about sunni islam". While it might seem that "Twelver Shi'a Islam" is an appropriate title for its section (since Taqiyya has a central place in Shi'a Islam and has been apparently backed by their mainstream scholars for their own reasons and conditions), I find a similar "Sunni Islam" title to be entirely misleading and questionable as Taqiyya doesn't hold the same place in Sunni jurisprudence as it does in Shi'a (in fact, all works listed under the further reading section are on Shi'a Islam and its branches). Moreover, it doesn't appear that Al-Wahrani's views represented his Maliki fiqh school, let alone Sunni Islam.
In short, this "jump" from Al-Wahrani to Sunni Islam is most likely an WP:OR (or WP:SYNTH to be specific) by Davidelah and I think the section needs a better title. Al-Andalusi ( talk) 01:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Unflavoured, regarding the sub-section's clear content. Titling it with Sunni-Islam is misleading, as it's not Sunni Islam in the 19th century, but an incident of a particular group of Sunnis in Spain.
Regarding its location, we can't put that under Sunni POV alone, according to
WP:DUE. We'll need to bring tons of opposite incidents to balance it. Shia Islam is covered in the "Lead" and "Origin", while Sunni Islam is covered in its own section. Therefore, whatever is left are all historical examples, and should stay that way, IMO.
~ AdvertAdam
talk 03:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
One bracket of the reference in the quote is out of place. I do not know how to fix this. Help please. Unflavoured ( talk) 05:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Taqiyya is a particular type of dissimulation for a specific purpose. The source does not provide any evidence that Khomeini was practicing taqiyya. Fat&Happy ( talk) 02:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps we should discuss condensing the section instead of flat out deleting 2/3 of it ?! Unflavoured ( talk) 03:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Fath Bari quote does not contain any direct reference to Taqiya and adding it is WP:SYNT and OR. I am going to delete it.-- Penom ( talk) 13:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Some Sunni sources put emphasis on the fact that a person who prefers to proclaim their faith in the face of death will have a greater reward than they who deny their faith to save their lives. For example, in Fath al-Bari, the Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, it is stated that: [2]
أجمعوا على أن من أكره على الكفر واختار القتل أنه أعظم أجرا عند الله ممن اختار الرخصة ، وأما غير الكفر فإن أكره على أكل الخنزير وشرب الخمر مثلا فالفعل أولى
Which translates to:
There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license [to deny one's faith under duress], but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that [instead of choosing death].
{{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: length (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link)
I added researched and source cited information that was deleted by someone in minutes.
This is what I added:
Copy/pasted copyright violation redacted. As mentioned below, content can be found at http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war Fat&Happy ( talk) 15:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
This MEF (Middle Eastern Forum) is an Islamaphobic, venomous site, completely opposed to Islam. That is the source of the above info. They would not tell the truth about Islam if they were PAID to do so!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeucePrez ( talk • contribs) 19:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.40.254 ( talk) 15:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I deleted an entire section about Muslims "accused of using Taqiya in debates". The section was unclear.
If we are referring to political leaders lying merely to gain advantage - as in propaganda statements and PR campaigns - then the term surely does not apply. The accusation would simply be that they were lying.
On the other hand, if such a leader were caught lying (or simply accused of it), and he himself invoked the principle of taqiya, that ought to go in the article.
The general subject of whether politicians ever (gasp, choke) lie when making public statements is beyond the scope of this article. But in the US at least - with its relatively high degree of accountability, politicians are right down there with lawyers and used care salesmen in terms of generally reliability and honesty. Perhaps in other places where standards of accountability are lower, things are worse. But that would have to be documented; I don't add speculation to articles: I take it out. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 18:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
There is second type of taqiyya which is not mentioned in the article. According Etan Cohlberg: There is a second type of Taqiyya which shall be called "dissimulation" which is use of word or actions tending to mislead one's opponents.
I was going to mention this type of Taqiyya but my edit was reverted. Adamrce previously asked me to provide a source that called this type of dissimulation "Taqiyya" and I did. Etan is wellknown orientalist and his view is valid. What now? -- Penom ( talk) 18:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I know about WP:SYNT. The source clearly called its example dissimulation. After all here is English wikipedia. Do not expect that all English sources use Arabic word "Taqiyya". Right? The problem is that you are not familiar enough with the topic. Concealing idea to misliead the Islam enemies is another form of Taqiyya and must be mentioned with some example-- Penom ( talk) 18:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
No such "second type of taqiyya" exists. 75.76.213.161 ( talk) 05:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
It does not give a discussion on its full meaning and completely glosses over some very pertinent information. Looking through past comments, it looks as if users discredit any and every source that would present a view different from their own. Therefore, it is clear that this is not a balanced article, but one very careful crafted to paint the practice in a positive light. 173.174.212.164 ( talk) 21:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
As many people below clearly showed that there is no such thing in Islam as Taqiyya. I wonder why the main page hasn't been updated? I object on this section "Some Sunni scholars chose to affirm Mamun's view that the Qur'an was created, in spite of their beliefs[5] though a notable exception" Reference #5 is not even a reference here. Are you just trying to shove done references to prove a false point? The reference author is discussed "Ismailis" which are not consider Sunni to begin with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asd1815 ( talk • contribs) 19:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
The article was categorised as "Islam-related controversy", and the external link section had stuff on "taqiyya libel" etc., while the article content merely gave an account of the history of the concept in Islamic sectarianism. But it is true that the term is most frequently encountered today in the context of political Islam, especially in western countries where "dissimulation" would be aimed at the non-Muslim host society.
I tried to address this by introducing a new section, into which I have incorporated the articles formerly under "external links", naturally from both camps, i.e. Muslim apologists vs. critics of Islam. It turns out that this "new" aspect of taqiyya seems to have arisen from the 2004 book by Mukaram. It also appears to me that the debate is mostly fruitless because it focusses on the semantics of "taqiyya": apologists are right that in Sunni Islam at least, "taqiyya" is only permissible when threatened by death or extreme duress. This is because the Sunnis were the political authority against whom the Shi'a practice of "taqiyya" would be directed, so their interest was to minimize its permissibility. But this is just the word taqiyya. It turns out that the (Sunni) Hanafi school of jurisprudence has a well-developed science of deception, with an entire arsenal of practices, which is directly compared in aim and subtlety to taqiyya in the 1906 article I linked. The only thing is that the term "taqiyya" would not be used by Sunni Muslims, they would just use hijal. So it seems to me that a lot of this "controversy" is due to people objecting to Mukaram's perhaps unfortunate choice of "taqiyya" as a term for this entire topic. It is fair enough to complain about the term as a poor choice, but needless to say "we don't like your word" doesn't amount to a full refutation of Murakam's book, or the people who adopted his term. -- dab (𒁳) 15:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
"Lebanese scholar Sami Makarem published the monograph Al Taqiyya Fi Al Islam ("Dissimulation in Islam"), arguing that the concept should be considered "mainstream" and ubiquitous in modern Islamic politics"
"On the other hand, the practice of deceiving another party by reservatio mentalis and misleading statements when taking an oath, while not known as taqiyya but rather as ḥiyal"
"Specific concepts of hijal include muruna (deception by feigned moderation), tawriya (deception by ambiguity) and kitman (deception by omission), which critics of political Islam suggest have been "revived" from the historical literature on Islamic jurisprudence for the application by Muslim immigrants in western countries to deceive their host societies about their aims.[41]"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Well, when given the choice to consult academic references and an anonymous guy "explaining" terms on a talkpage, I'll take the reference, but thanks.
I don't see the point of this kind of argument,
I just finished compiling a writeup on hiyal, based on actual sources. This isn't "my logic", I am just being led by what I find in expert literature.
What do you mean "Islamic courts wouldn't exist"? There is a centuries-old tradition of arguing about hiyal, beginning in the 9th century, and seamlessly stretching to the 1970s, and I did cite authorities arguing for and against it, based on academic sources discussing the topic (as oppose to cherry-picking what I would like to be true), so if you want to argue against "my logic" or "my statement", I guess you will be welcome to cite sources that I missed, in context, and build an argument from that instead of "explaining" stuff to me from a position of "authority" you seem to assume you have.
The fact that in the "contemporary debate", people have started to research this rich tradition of "legalistic trickery" in Islamic jurisprudence and write popular articles about it is hardly "beyond this article". I don't even have an opinion on which side is being more disingenious than the other, I am happy to just point people to claims and counter-claims. You will note that I did bother to do a comparatively deep literature search on the topic (the expert on the topic being Joseph Schacht), while your entire "argument" is propped up by a couple of weblinks to sites such as "islamqa.info". As long as its classics of Islamic studies vs. random weblinks, this isn't even a "discussion" in the sense of Wikipedia process. -- dab (𒁳) 09:02, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
The beginnings of Taqiyya are seen in the Bible where Abraham is denying that Sarah (Sarai) was his wife to Pharaoh for fear of being killed. He suspected that the king was attracted to his wife and as a result of his statement the king actually takes Sarah to his harem. Once again in the Bible, we see Abraham denies the same to King Abimelech that Sarah was his wife as he feared being killed by the King and princes who were attracted to his wife. Both times he says that Sarah was his sister. Once again, we see that as a result of his statement, king Abilelech takes Sarah to his harem and from reports, keeps her there for a significant period of time, as his wife. Many say that Abraham was truthful because Sarah (Sarai) was his half sister, from the same father but from a different mother. (Genesis 20:2). Then Bible tells us that Isaac, Abraham’s son tells Abimelech that Rebekah was his sister and not his wife for fear of being killed. King and princes were desirous of Rebekah. Here we see patriarchs of monotheistic religions committing Taqiyya. For fear of life and for fear of their loved ones they hide facts from potential persecutors. (Genesis 26:7)
-- The above is not condoned in the bible. Reported as history is not the same as condoned! God was very angry at Abraham for doing this! 02:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC) 119.13.236.29 ( talk)
One does not see any evidence or events reflecting Taqiyya in Jesus's life and narratives about him. And one does not see any Taqiyya in the life of Muhammad. No narratives of Taqiyya are present for either Jesus or Muhammad. (Quran 22:52)
In reality Taqiyya is a modern polemic against Muslims by well organised Islamophobic think tanks and organisations that serve anti-Muslim interests. To demonise Muslims in this regard allows them to dehumanise Muslims. (The undeniable overlap: right-wing Zionism and Islamophobia. H Aked. 29 September 2015). In reality, Taqiyya is a concept unknown in Islamic world. It is never practiced as no Muslim calls himself a non-Muslim in any Muslim country or for that matter even in a non-Muslims country. And if one accepts, albeit for argument sake only it's existence, then it is in theory for allowing someone to say that he's not a Shia when his life, family or property are at risk from persecutors of the Shia. It does not referred to in any Sunni Muslim doctrine or thought; and it may only be applicable when Shia Muslims are threatened with their lives or the lives of their family or destruction of their homes. Nowadays, it is used as an Islamophobic, anti-Muslim tool by the likes of anti-Muslim propagandist cliques like Horowitz, Pipes and Spencer et al, who have extended it in an hasbara like fashion to suggest that it means Muslims can or must lie in Christian communities (Anti-Muslim bigotry is being funded by the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd. E. Bulkin, D. Nevel on October 12, 2012). If that's the case and Muslims are threatened with their lives and lives of their families and they say that they are not Muslims then one may accept it's presence or validity. The fact is that nowhere has a single Muslim, under coercion in a Christian community, denied being a Muslim, to save his life! To suggest that it means a Muslim lies as part of a religious doctrine freely is anti-Muslim hate speech. It is a patently and purely hate preaching. It is primal Islamophobic hate. It is like saying that because Bible was used by South African apartheid whites to kill, maim and enslave blacks Bible is the manual of slavery and murder of blacks by white Christians. But, in reality, the Taqiyya talk says much more than that: it suggests that because a small group in Christianity committed holocaust against Jews in Europe, it is incumbent upon all Christians to be mass murderers or at least every Christian who claims to be Christian must be suspected of having genocidal urges. In Islamic populations across the world, the concept of Taqiyya is as elusive as the golden winged dragon sitting on a flying carpet eating hummus!
Druze and Muslim hating Christian and Islamophobic Jewish authors have written wildly about this, almost invisible, topic in Muslim life. Even if it is countenanced as a valid concept, it's source appears hundreds of years after the advent of Islam. Their aim of those who talk of Taqiyya is to create suspicion against and hate towards Muslims and Islam. To give credence to authors who are funded and published by Muslim-hating publishing houses and extremist Christian and rabidly Zionist financed groups, is to accept hate and spread hate. This concept is to promote hate that's contrived and deliberate. (Sami Makarem. Al Taqiya fil Islam; Raymond Ibrahim, Islam Translated, David Horowitz Freedom Centre)
Taqiyya, if it is a valid ecclesiastical thought in Shia doctrine, is directly brought in from the Christian Bible: from Peter 's Denial. Peter’s Denial is narrated in Mark, Mathew and Luke. Jesus predicted that before the sound of the crow next morning Peter would deny Jesus three times. Peter protests and says he'd rather die than disown Jesus. But when the time comes Peter, in fear of his life and frightened of persecution disowns Jesus three times at three different occasions. This is the example of Taqiyya, at the advent of Christianity, by the father of modern Christianity. The religious source is from Christianity and from the first seat of Catholic Church or actually in the advent of Christianity itself (John 18:15; Mark 14:69; Luke 22:54, The Holy Bible) Use only reliable sources, and in context. Random internet links can be quite dangerous, in terms of misuse of information. -- 92slim ( talk) 13:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
86.187.65.228 ( talk), please provide cited references when adding content. Original research ( WP:OR) is not allowed per wikipedia standards. Your points are acknowledged but without proper scholarly source, it is your personal opinion... and this is an encyclopedia. Otherwise, your edits can be construed as vandalism and will be deleted, possibly escalating to moderation notification. -- HafizHanif ( talk) 18:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
the problem with the author of this main article is that this author seems to be so biased that he does not have the common sense of quoting other sources or critiquing the polemical use of this islamophobic concept, now used in mainstream muslim hating narrative driven by Hororowitz et al. the author keeps on deleting and undoing a balanced approach to Taqiya in his attempt to maintain an islamophobic and muslim hating stance.
The beginnings of Taqiyya are seen in the Bible where Abraham is denying that Sarah (Sarai) was his wife to Pharaoh for fear of being killed. He suspected that the king was attracted to his wife and as a result of his statement the king actually takes Sarah to his harem. Once again in the Bible, we see Abraham denies the same to King Abimelech that Sarah was his wife as he feared being killed by the King and princes who were attracted to his wife. Both times he says that Sarah was his sister. Once again, we see that as a result of his statement, king Abilelech takes Sarah to his harem and from reports, keeps her there for a significant period of time, as his wife. Many say that Abraham was truthful because Sarah (Sarai) was his half sister, from the same father but from a different mother. (Genesis 20:2). Then Bible tells us that Isaac, Abraham’s son tells Abimelech that Rebekah was his sister and not his wife for fear of being killed. King and princes were desirous of Rebekah. Here we see patriarchs of monotheistic religions committing Taqiyya. For fear of life and for fear of their loved ones they hide facts from potential persecutors. (Genesis 26:7)
One does not see any evidence or events reflecting Taqiyya in Jesus's life and narratives about him. And one does not see any Taqiyya in the life of Muhammad. No narratives of Taqiyya are present for either Jesus or Muhammad. (Quran 22:52)
In reality Taqiyya is a modern polemic against Muslims by well organised Islamophobic think tanks and organisations that serve anti-Muslim interests. To demonise Muslims in this regard allows them to dehumanise Muslims. (The undeniable overlap: right-wing Zionism and Islamophobia. H Aked. 29 September 2015). In reality, Taqiyya is a concept unknown in Islamic world. It is never practiced as no Muslim calls himself a non-Muslim in any Muslim country or for that matter even in a non-Muslims country. And if one accepts, albeit for argument sake only it's existence, then it is in theory for allowing someone to say that he's not a Shia when his life, family or property are at risk from persecutors of the Shia. It does not referred to in any Sunni Muslim doctrine or thought; and it may only be applicable when Shia Muslims are threatened with their lives or the lives of their family or destruction of their homes. Nowadays, it is used as an Islamophobic, anti-Muslim tool by the likes of anti-Muslim propagandist cliques like Horowitz, Pipes and Spencer et al, who have extended it in an hasbara like fashion to suggest that it means Muslims can or must lie in Christian communities (Anti-Muslim bigotry is being funded by the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd. E. Bulkin, D. Nevel on October 12, 2012). If that's the case and Muslims are threatened with their lives and lives of their families and they say that they are not Muslims then one may accept it's presence or validity. The fact is that nowhere has a single Muslim, under coercion in a Christian community, denied being a Muslim, to save his life! To suggest that it means a Muslim lies as part of a religious doctrine freely is anti-Muslim hate speech. It is a patently and purely hate preaching. It is primal Islamophobic hate. It is like saying that because Bible was used by South African apartheid whites to kill, maim and enslave blacks Bible is the manual of slavery and murder of blacks by white Christians. But, in reality, the Taqiyya talk says much more than that: it suggests that because a small group in Christianity committed holocaust against Jews in Europe, it is incumbent upon all Christians to be mass murderers or at least every Christian who claims to be Christian must be suspected of having genocidal urges. In Islamic populations across the world, the concept of Taqiyya is as elusive as the golden winged dragon sitting on a flying carpet eating hummus!
Druze and Muslim hating Christian and Islamophobic Jewish authors have written wildly about this, almost invisible, topic in Muslim life. Even if it is countenanced as a valid concept, it's source appears hundreds of years after the advent of Islam. Their aim of those who talk of Taqiyya is to create suspicion against and hate towards Muslims and Islam. To give credence to authors who are funded and published by Muslim-hating publishing houses and extremist Christian and rabidly Zionist financed groups, is to accept hate and spread hate. This concept is to promote hate that's contrived and deliberate. (Sami Makarem. Al Taqiya fil Islam; Raymond Ibrahim, Islam Translated, David Horowitz Freedom Centre)
Taqiyya, if it is a valid ecclesiastical thought in Shia doctrine, is directly brought in from the Christian Bible: from Peter 's Denial. Peter’s Denial is narrated in Mark, Mathew and Luke. Jesus predicted that before the sound of the crow next morning Peter would deny Jesus three times. Peter protests and says he'd rather die than disown Jesus. But when the time comes Peter, in fear of his life and frightened of persecution disowns Jesus three times at three different occasions. This is the example of Taqiyya, at the advent of Christianity, by the father of modern Christianity. The religious source is from Christianity and from the first seat of Catholic Church or actually in the advent of Christianity itself (John 18:15; Mark 14:69; Luke 22:54, The Holy Bible)
thank you for your almost sir Humphrey like quotations in bureaucracy to make a valid refutation of your article almost impossible. Bible and Torah are clear in stating that Abraham and Issac committed Taqiya to save their lives and in that process allowed their wives to be admitted to other people's beds and harems. In the presence of main religious texts where patriarchs of religion are committing Taqiya, you are suggesting that unless it is supported by other followers of these prophets, it cannot be mentioned? That is almost laughable. why do i need to add other scholars' comments when prophets themselves and holy books, the sources of judaism and Christianity are making these statements! it is almost comical for you to even suggest that. Primary sources are excluded from wikipedia especially when we are talking of religious topics? you wish to exclude Moses and Issac from discussion about religion? in regards zionist funding, is that not a valid aspect that Taqiyia is being used ad nauseum as anti muslim hate project, more recently in the mainstream politics of the USA? do not add to your precious article if you wish it to be the what it is, your article, but please be aware that this is a biased, unbalanced, dangerous and dare i say a dishonest article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.123.88.153 ( talk) 01:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
the main article is academically biased, intellectually bordering on dishonest and attributes anti muslim and anti shia sentiments without evidence onto the mass of muslims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.123.88.153 ( talk) 00:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
first of all, all statements are referenced. you should read the references in the Bible, The Torah and other articles mentioned, by established authors. so the repetition that i should reference my statements must stop as it is becoming a oft repeated fib. my statements are referenced. my opinions are logical conclusions that are intuitive or natural deductions from the quotes. it is like 1+1=2. secondly, i am doing exactly as you have set out in your 'article' on taqiya: expanding it and finding its source. if you wish to stop at a few hundred years after the advent of islam in terms of finding its practice, then thats your narrow and dare i say, inclinational, choice. As far as i am concerned, i am saying: to lie to save your life, as defined by your oft and ad nauseum quoted authors in the 'article' you wrote, is as far old and beyond Islam, Christianity and possibly judaism. in judaism it is called Moses' denial, in Christianity it is called Peter's denial and in shiaism it is called taqiya. you have mentioned 'to lie' in your references about Islam and Muslims, in particular. and so it should not be surprising for you to see me describe lies that are religiously told in Judaism and in Christianity, and the practice of lies to save one's life and the concept of doing it are the same. your analogy is not valid and mine it, if you read and compare. accusations are made on evidence available and the evidence available in your 'article' is attracting accusations of imbalance, bias and lack of awareness, and from your refusal to accept my or any other additions, a core inclination that warrants further examination. It is a tragedy that your 'article' has been quoted or appeared in press without any of our comments to bring balance to the muslim/islam depricatory tone and tenor of the piece. i think i am done with you and with this 'article'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.105.200.100 ( talk) 22:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)