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the article is still a draft Ktsquare June 20 2002
1)The survival of the Western Xia dynasty of Tangut among Mongol, Jin, Liao, Song for such a long time from 11 century to 13 century is just a miracle. How come the empire? 2) it is said to be populated by Tangut? has to be clarified. Simple cases are Yuan Empire and Jin dynasty, we can not say that they are populated by Mongol and Jurchen. 3) people in Western Xia call themself Da Xia or "Great Xia", so it may not be good idea artificially put the name "Tangut Empire" on it. Whatever the name, it should contain "Xia". So I would recommend "The Western Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Great Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Great Xia Dynasty". Mon Aug 29 14:34:16 EDT 2005
Do we really seriously consider the possibility that the Xia/Tangut/other name of your preference used chariots in the 11th-13th centuries CE? Carts and wagons to build laagers and perhaps carry artillery, OK, but the term chariot must either come from a mistranslation or a historicising source. 94.210.191.78 ( talk) 14:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I have moved the article to Tangut Empire, because some Wikipedia articles were citing it both that way and as Western Xia. Tangut is the accepted English translation, in particular among Tangutologists. (Sinologists may call it Western Xia, but they probably call America Meiguo too). I have added a link to the Tangut Language page, and corrected the mistake that the Tanguts spoke Tibetan. Article still needs much work though.-- Nathan hill 11:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed this article from the Category 'Chinese History' because the Tangut Empire is no more a part of Chinese History than it is Mongolian History, or Tibetan History. I have also removed it from Eurasian Nomads because the Tanguts were city-folk. -- Nathan hill 12:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Uh, wait, what's wrong with "Western Xia"? After all, "Xia" was the official name of the empire, while "Tangut" was simply a designation of its dominant ethnicity. "Western Xia" itself is an overwhelmingly common name, and the province (well, autonomous region) of Ningxia is named after it. What's wrong with using both names, as is often used with the Manchu Empire / Qing Dynasty, Jurchen Empire / Jin Dynasty, and Khitan Empire / Liao Dynasty?
The "Meiguo" example is a bit of a false analogy. America is not part of the field of study of Sinologists. "Meiguo" is not usually used in English. However, the provinces of Gansu, Ningxia, and Shaanxi do belong to the field of study of Sinologists, and Western Xia is part of the history of those provinces.
Also, why isn't the history of Western Xia part of Chinese history? The history of the Iroquois, for example, is part of American history and Canadian history. Gauls, Romans, Franks, all are parts of French history. And the Visigoths and Moors are a part of Spanish history. -- ran ( talk) 20:57, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
The section on the name of Tibet now reads:
The first etymology was mine (and is correct) the second I had never heard of before reading the Wikipedia article, and seems very unlikely because in Sanskrit there is a word for Tibet bhoTa. My etymology was cited with a reference to an article by Wolfgang Behr, now I see that the citation has been removed, and the other etymology reinserted. This means that someone didn't bother to read the article, didn't want others to read it, and that the trivistapa idea has equal merit because at least one person thinks its right. What can you say, some people think the world is flat.
To sum up succinctly to say 'Western Xia' expresses a biased POV. First of all it is in the west (of China), second it is called the Xia (i.e. a Chinese Name and indeed transliterated according to the 20th century pronunciation of Beijing). The Mongols would have seen them as to the south, the Tibetans as to the north. To say 'Tangut Empire' expresses less of a POV. -- Nathan hill 12:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no NPOV problem using the title "(West-) Xia". The Tangut leadership itself, which was once under Sung's suzerainty with style name Duke of Xia, formally adopted the official title Xia [not mj-njaa-khj-dwuu-lhji.j or phiow-bjij-lhji.j-lji.j] and declared emperorship on 11-10-1038. Its just like the Mongols and the Manchu court when they adopted respectively the titles of "Yuan" and "Qing".
Who are you and how do you know. Have you read Ksenia Keppings article which discusses the Tangut Autonym (her bibliography is accessible through a link on the Tangut language page). My understanding is that the Tanguts used Tangut as their language of administration. I am not sure what to make of your parallel to the Yuan and Qing, but I doubt that the Qing referred to themselves as Qing when they wrote in Manchu. Perhaps Xia was the official Chinese term for the empire, but Meiguo is the official Chinese term for American, and no one suggests Wikipedia articles refer to the US as Mediguo. --Nathan Hill
No, you are wrong. Xia is a Chinese word, not a Tangut word. The Tanguts may have called themselvs Xia when they spoke Chinese, an American also calls himself Meiguoren when he speaks Chinese. You are right in as far as Tangut is a Russian/Mongolian word. Ideally, we would call them by their autonym Miniah, and why not. I suggest this article be moved to 'Miniah Empire' for the sake of argument. --Nathan Hill
It seems hardly viable to dismiss the scholarship of a number of professional academics who have devoted years of study to these subjects by simply citing google hits. --Nathan Hill
You're evading the question. The question is not whether the Xia officials documents were in Tangut as well as Chinese (they clearly were); the question is, what name did Xia refer to itself as? There is no evidence that you provided, and there is much evidence countering your argument, that the state referred to itself as anything but Xia or Daxia ("Great Xia"). -- Nlu ( talk) 16:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
In 890, Li Sigong was bestowed title of Duke of Xia for his efforts in An Lushan rebellion. In 997, Li Deming installed himself as the King of DaXia (or Great Xia). Li Yuanhao created a Tangut script based on the Chinese writing, and later proclaimed himself as Emperor of Xia. (Bangniding or Baishanguo). Da Xia is a dynastic title. Olorin28 16:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The term "Tangut Empire" seems novel; in all sources I've read the empire is referred to as Western Xia ("Hsi Hsia" or "Xi Xia" usually), and only the ruling peoples as the Tangut(s). This is the same as is used in reference to the Jin Dynasty, which was led by the Jurched. Whether or not this was a common term used by the Empire in self-reference is not relevant for the naming of the article per Wikipedia:Naming Conventions; the common name is preferred. Note also the google test on this one "Tangut Empire" yields 415 results (4 of the ten that pop up on the first page being copies of this article), and "Western Xia" returns 43,700 results. siafu 04:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
T'oung Pao, LXXX, fasc. 4-5. (1994). "The Official Name of the Tangut Empire as reflected in native Tangut Texts" Manuscripta Orientalia. Vol 1. No. 3. P. 22-32.
These are disingenous arguments; of course you're not going to have Tangut references to "summer"; that's not the name of the state, and no one has seriously argued that "Xia" (as applied to Xia Dynasty and Xia (Sixteen Kingdoms)) were intended to have the secondary meaning of "summer". It is clear that Xia was an official name for the state (in Chinese, yes); the question is whether "Tangut" or "Miniah" also was, and you have not shown a single piece of evidence that either was. In particular, the Jin Shi (the history of Jin, with data compiled by non-Chinese Jin and completed by non-Chinese Mongols) described the state as nothing but Xia. -- Nlu ( talk) 01:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me quote from myself again from my earlier passage: "In 890, Li Sigong was bestowed title of Duke of Xia for his efforts in An Lushan rebellion. In 997, Li Deming installed himself as the King of DaXia (or Great Xia). Li Yuanhao created a Tangut script based on the Chinese writing, and later proclaimed himself as Emperor of Xia. (Bangniding or Baishanguo). Da Xia is a dynastic title." Correct, Western Xia would be a POV if you are being really picky, but Xia was an official name of the Da Xia Dynasty, and perhaps Nathan, you should also read Jin Shi, as mentioned by Nlu above. Olorin28 03:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
All expansion I did today came from translating the Chinese Wikipedia. Olorin28 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If this dispute is only about which name the article should be under, you should primarily use the Wikipedia:Requested moves and not Wikipedia:Request for comment. / Fred- Chess 20:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Western Xia's city of Lingzhou be discussed? It is discussed in the Genghis Khan article. Badagnani 03:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody have any information about religious texts, traditions or people within Western Xia? I am endeavouring to chart the influence of
Korean Buddhism upon the
Dzogchen of the
Nyingmapa. I intuit that Western Xia and
Rongzompa are somehow related. Any direction would be appreciated.
Blessings in the
Mindstream
B9 hummingbird hovering (
talk •
contribs)
09:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a source to verify the "suppression"? As it is, the passage provides no evidence of Xixia being suppressed in China aside from saying they've "vanished" and is treated as a foreign state. Saying that this is "suppression of history" seems very POV/biased, unless it can be properly documented. Astro Droid ( talk) 20:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
A section under 'interpretation of names' seems to badly confuse the Tangut and the Tuyuhun and confuse both of these with the Mongours. The Tanguts are Tibeto-Burman speakers, the Tuyuhun are turks, and the Mongours are Mongols. Making the Tanguts into Mongols seems like a bitter pill to swollow indeed. I am going to remove the section. I realize it is cited, and perhaps much of it should stay. But right now it is terribly confused. Tibetologist ( talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Tangut people were brave warriors following the karma kargu clan or ningmapa buddhism they followed karmapas.the then dalailama of tibet with the help of mongol army invaded the tangut empire defeating them and persecuting them all. in course of time the tribal chiefs and princes escaped or migrated to various places from their homelands due to persecutions by the yellow hat sects of dalailamas, some group of tribal chiefs made to bhutan and sikkim(now in india). In bhutan they are known as ngalops or the earliest converts (see ngalops of bhutan) and in sikkim they are known as denzongpas.The history of sikkim tells us that a tribal chief by the name of khyebhumsar in came from minyak in the eastern part of kham and settled in sikkim whose decendent became the kings of sikkim. Just wanna tell that the history of tangut people is not lost but still breathing and thriving . should redirect here.-- 189.62.170.155 ( talk) 15:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
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____________________________________ ____________________________________
Walt 45805 9/14/11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walt 45805 ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 14 September 2011 (UTC) Just checked this after reading the turgid and not very reliable article on "Tangut." Here is another Dunnell-free entry! Even if for some reason the author does not feel like consulting or crediting the best-known authority (in English) on Western Xia history, readers certainly deserve to know about her book. This is another eccentric entry on Tanggut/Western Xia topics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walt 45805 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Other authors
http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA262#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (
talk)
06:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA164#v=onepage&q&f=false
page 288
Title Tanguts and the Tangut State of Ta Hsia Author Ruth W. Dunnell Edition reprint Publisher Princeton University, 1983
松漠纪闻 洪皓撰
Song mo ji wen by Hong Hao (Hung Hao)
https://zh.wikisource.org/zh/%E6%9D%BE%E6%BC%A0%E7%B4%80%E8%81%9E
回鶻自唐末浸微,本朝盛時,有入居秦川為熟戶者。女真破陝,悉徙之燕山、甘、涼、瓜、沙。舊皆有族帳,後悉羈縻於西夏,唯居四郡外地者,頗自為國,有君長。其人卷髮深目,眉脩而濃,自眼睫而下多虬髯。士多瑟瑟珠玉,帛有兜羅綿、毛㲲、狨錦、注絲、熟綾、斜褐。藥有膃肭臍、硇砂。香有乳香、安息、篤耨。善造賓鐵刀劍、烏金銀器。多為商賈於燕,載以橐駝過夏地,夏人率十而指一,必得其最上品者,賈人苦之。後以物美惡雜貯毛連中,毛連以羊毛緝之,單其中,兩頭為袋,以毛繩或綫封之。有甚粗者,有間以雜色毛者則輕細。然所征亦不貲。其來浸熟,始厚賂稅吏,密識其中下品,俾指之。尤能別珍寶,蕃、漢為市者,非其人為儈則不能售價。奉釋氏最甚,共為一堂,塑佛像其中,每齋必刲羊,或酒酣以指染血塗佛口,或捧其足而鳴之,謂為親敬。誦經則衣袈裟,作西竺語,燕人或俾之祈禱,多驗。婦人類男人,白晢,著青衣,如中國道服。然以薄青紗冪首而見其面。其居秦川時,女未嫁者先與漢人通,有生數子年近三十始能配其種類。媒妁來議者,父母則曰,吾女嘗與某人某人昵,以多為勝,風俗皆然。其在燕者皆久居業成,能以金相瑟瑟為首飾,如釵頭形而曲一二寸,如古之笄狀。又善結金綫相瑟瑟為珥及巾環,織熟錦、熟綾、注絲、綫羅等物。又以五色綫織成袍,名曰「尅絲」,甚華麗。又善撚金綫別作一等,背織花樹,用粉繳,經歲則不佳,唯以打換達靼。辛酉歲,金國肆眚,皆許西歸,多留不反。今亦有目微深而髯不虬者,蓋與漢兒通而生也。
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1705168
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011569408
http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA256#v=onepage&q&f=false
Are we sure that this book is correct about the "Yarlung" river, which the Wikipedia author has probably expanded to "Yarlung Tsangpo"? I think it's more likely to be the Yalong tributary of the Yangzi, the upper valley of which is known in Tibetan as "Minyak", which contains Karma Kargyupa monasteries, and above all Qiangic (non-Tibetan) Sino-Tibetan languages probably closely related to Tangut if not descended from it, including a poorly described one called Muya (of which "Minyak" is a synonym). UnknownSage ( talk) 03:41, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Can we start using Mark Miyake's "simplified notation suitable for lay publications" to transcribe the Tangut language? He presents it here: http://amritas.com/150110.htm#01052345 ... when I first saw this page a while ago, knowing nothing of Tangut, I found transcriptions like /*phiow¹-bjij²-lhjij-lhjij²/ so odd to look at that I had a hard time believing it was not a typo. Now, having learned a slight bit about the language, that does not seem to have been necessary. There's a lot we don't know about the specifics of how Tangut was pronounced, especially as far as how the different rime grades were pronounced, that it seems pointless to try to be so specific. Miyake represents the grades with numbers. He suggests that lay publications use a simplified form with no numbers for grades, no tone marks, and no letters for phonation other than n for nasalisation. In the example I mentioned above, /io/ is Gong's grade II (I believe) of "o" and /jij/ is grade III of "e". So, Miyake's reconstruction would be, I believe, phow-be-lhe-lhe. Much easier on the eyes.
On second thought, I don't see how we can switch without finding a specific source for Miyake's transcription of each character in question, or, at least, an authoritative key for translating between the two transcriptions. – Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 05:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Any thoughts on reopening discussions about moving this page to Tangut Empire? In principle, other possible titles include Xixia, Xixia Empire, Western Xia dynasty, Western Hsia, and many other permutations.
Personally, the title of this article sticks out to me in a bad way because the Tangutologists that I’m familiar with use the term “Tangut” rather than some variation on Hsia, and also because it seems to natural to me that, for example, if someone were describing the destruction of this state by the Mongols, I would expect it to be referred to as “the Tanguts”. However, I can understand the contrary argument that the conventional name of the imperial people is “Tanguts” but the conventional name of the state is the Chinese “etc. Xia”.
Additionally, “Western” seems odd in this title because in English it seems to imply that there is also an “Eastern Xia”, etc., whereas in Chinese it implies something more like “Xia, which is in the west” (much as the Chinese word for Tibet is “Xizang”, i.e. “ Tsang, which is in the west”). If we decide to keep this article at some variant of the Chinese name, perhaps we could consider moving it to Xixia. – Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 18:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
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the article is still a draft Ktsquare June 20 2002
1)The survival of the Western Xia dynasty of Tangut among Mongol, Jin, Liao, Song for such a long time from 11 century to 13 century is just a miracle. How come the empire? 2) it is said to be populated by Tangut? has to be clarified. Simple cases are Yuan Empire and Jin dynasty, we can not say that they are populated by Mongol and Jurchen. 3) people in Western Xia call themself Da Xia or "Great Xia", so it may not be good idea artificially put the name "Tangut Empire" on it. Whatever the name, it should contain "Xia". So I would recommend "The Western Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Great Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Great Xia Dynasty". Mon Aug 29 14:34:16 EDT 2005
Do we really seriously consider the possibility that the Xia/Tangut/other name of your preference used chariots in the 11th-13th centuries CE? Carts and wagons to build laagers and perhaps carry artillery, OK, but the term chariot must either come from a mistranslation or a historicising source. 94.210.191.78 ( talk) 14:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I have moved the article to Tangut Empire, because some Wikipedia articles were citing it both that way and as Western Xia. Tangut is the accepted English translation, in particular among Tangutologists. (Sinologists may call it Western Xia, but they probably call America Meiguo too). I have added a link to the Tangut Language page, and corrected the mistake that the Tanguts spoke Tibetan. Article still needs much work though.-- Nathan hill 11:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed this article from the Category 'Chinese History' because the Tangut Empire is no more a part of Chinese History than it is Mongolian History, or Tibetan History. I have also removed it from Eurasian Nomads because the Tanguts were city-folk. -- Nathan hill 12:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Uh, wait, what's wrong with "Western Xia"? After all, "Xia" was the official name of the empire, while "Tangut" was simply a designation of its dominant ethnicity. "Western Xia" itself is an overwhelmingly common name, and the province (well, autonomous region) of Ningxia is named after it. What's wrong with using both names, as is often used with the Manchu Empire / Qing Dynasty, Jurchen Empire / Jin Dynasty, and Khitan Empire / Liao Dynasty?
The "Meiguo" example is a bit of a false analogy. America is not part of the field of study of Sinologists. "Meiguo" is not usually used in English. However, the provinces of Gansu, Ningxia, and Shaanxi do belong to the field of study of Sinologists, and Western Xia is part of the history of those provinces.
Also, why isn't the history of Western Xia part of Chinese history? The history of the Iroquois, for example, is part of American history and Canadian history. Gauls, Romans, Franks, all are parts of French history. And the Visigoths and Moors are a part of Spanish history. -- ran ( talk) 20:57, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
The section on the name of Tibet now reads:
The first etymology was mine (and is correct) the second I had never heard of before reading the Wikipedia article, and seems very unlikely because in Sanskrit there is a word for Tibet bhoTa. My etymology was cited with a reference to an article by Wolfgang Behr, now I see that the citation has been removed, and the other etymology reinserted. This means that someone didn't bother to read the article, didn't want others to read it, and that the trivistapa idea has equal merit because at least one person thinks its right. What can you say, some people think the world is flat.
To sum up succinctly to say 'Western Xia' expresses a biased POV. First of all it is in the west (of China), second it is called the Xia (i.e. a Chinese Name and indeed transliterated according to the 20th century pronunciation of Beijing). The Mongols would have seen them as to the south, the Tibetans as to the north. To say 'Tangut Empire' expresses less of a POV. -- Nathan hill 12:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no NPOV problem using the title "(West-) Xia". The Tangut leadership itself, which was once under Sung's suzerainty with style name Duke of Xia, formally adopted the official title Xia [not mj-njaa-khj-dwuu-lhji.j or phiow-bjij-lhji.j-lji.j] and declared emperorship on 11-10-1038. Its just like the Mongols and the Manchu court when they adopted respectively the titles of "Yuan" and "Qing".
Who are you and how do you know. Have you read Ksenia Keppings article which discusses the Tangut Autonym (her bibliography is accessible through a link on the Tangut language page). My understanding is that the Tanguts used Tangut as their language of administration. I am not sure what to make of your parallel to the Yuan and Qing, but I doubt that the Qing referred to themselves as Qing when they wrote in Manchu. Perhaps Xia was the official Chinese term for the empire, but Meiguo is the official Chinese term for American, and no one suggests Wikipedia articles refer to the US as Mediguo. --Nathan Hill
No, you are wrong. Xia is a Chinese word, not a Tangut word. The Tanguts may have called themselvs Xia when they spoke Chinese, an American also calls himself Meiguoren when he speaks Chinese. You are right in as far as Tangut is a Russian/Mongolian word. Ideally, we would call them by their autonym Miniah, and why not. I suggest this article be moved to 'Miniah Empire' for the sake of argument. --Nathan Hill
It seems hardly viable to dismiss the scholarship of a number of professional academics who have devoted years of study to these subjects by simply citing google hits. --Nathan Hill
You're evading the question. The question is not whether the Xia officials documents were in Tangut as well as Chinese (they clearly were); the question is, what name did Xia refer to itself as? There is no evidence that you provided, and there is much evidence countering your argument, that the state referred to itself as anything but Xia or Daxia ("Great Xia"). -- Nlu ( talk) 16:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
In 890, Li Sigong was bestowed title of Duke of Xia for his efforts in An Lushan rebellion. In 997, Li Deming installed himself as the King of DaXia (or Great Xia). Li Yuanhao created a Tangut script based on the Chinese writing, and later proclaimed himself as Emperor of Xia. (Bangniding or Baishanguo). Da Xia is a dynastic title. Olorin28 16:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The term "Tangut Empire" seems novel; in all sources I've read the empire is referred to as Western Xia ("Hsi Hsia" or "Xi Xia" usually), and only the ruling peoples as the Tangut(s). This is the same as is used in reference to the Jin Dynasty, which was led by the Jurched. Whether or not this was a common term used by the Empire in self-reference is not relevant for the naming of the article per Wikipedia:Naming Conventions; the common name is preferred. Note also the google test on this one "Tangut Empire" yields 415 results (4 of the ten that pop up on the first page being copies of this article), and "Western Xia" returns 43,700 results. siafu 04:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
T'oung Pao, LXXX, fasc. 4-5. (1994). "The Official Name of the Tangut Empire as reflected in native Tangut Texts" Manuscripta Orientalia. Vol 1. No. 3. P. 22-32.
These are disingenous arguments; of course you're not going to have Tangut references to "summer"; that's not the name of the state, and no one has seriously argued that "Xia" (as applied to Xia Dynasty and Xia (Sixteen Kingdoms)) were intended to have the secondary meaning of "summer". It is clear that Xia was an official name for the state (in Chinese, yes); the question is whether "Tangut" or "Miniah" also was, and you have not shown a single piece of evidence that either was. In particular, the Jin Shi (the history of Jin, with data compiled by non-Chinese Jin and completed by non-Chinese Mongols) described the state as nothing but Xia. -- Nlu ( talk) 01:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me quote from myself again from my earlier passage: "In 890, Li Sigong was bestowed title of Duke of Xia for his efforts in An Lushan rebellion. In 997, Li Deming installed himself as the King of DaXia (or Great Xia). Li Yuanhao created a Tangut script based on the Chinese writing, and later proclaimed himself as Emperor of Xia. (Bangniding or Baishanguo). Da Xia is a dynastic title." Correct, Western Xia would be a POV if you are being really picky, but Xia was an official name of the Da Xia Dynasty, and perhaps Nathan, you should also read Jin Shi, as mentioned by Nlu above. Olorin28 03:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
All expansion I did today came from translating the Chinese Wikipedia. Olorin28 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If this dispute is only about which name the article should be under, you should primarily use the Wikipedia:Requested moves and not Wikipedia:Request for comment. / Fred- Chess 20:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Western Xia's city of Lingzhou be discussed? It is discussed in the Genghis Khan article. Badagnani 03:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody have any information about religious texts, traditions or people within Western Xia? I am endeavouring to chart the influence of
Korean Buddhism upon the
Dzogchen of the
Nyingmapa. I intuit that Western Xia and
Rongzompa are somehow related. Any direction would be appreciated.
Blessings in the
Mindstream
B9 hummingbird hovering (
talk •
contribs)
09:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a source to verify the "suppression"? As it is, the passage provides no evidence of Xixia being suppressed in China aside from saying they've "vanished" and is treated as a foreign state. Saying that this is "suppression of history" seems very POV/biased, unless it can be properly documented. Astro Droid ( talk) 20:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
A section under 'interpretation of names' seems to badly confuse the Tangut and the Tuyuhun and confuse both of these with the Mongours. The Tanguts are Tibeto-Burman speakers, the Tuyuhun are turks, and the Mongours are Mongols. Making the Tanguts into Mongols seems like a bitter pill to swollow indeed. I am going to remove the section. I realize it is cited, and perhaps much of it should stay. But right now it is terribly confused. Tibetologist ( talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Tangut people were brave warriors following the karma kargu clan or ningmapa buddhism they followed karmapas.the then dalailama of tibet with the help of mongol army invaded the tangut empire defeating them and persecuting them all. in course of time the tribal chiefs and princes escaped or migrated to various places from their homelands due to persecutions by the yellow hat sects of dalailamas, some group of tribal chiefs made to bhutan and sikkim(now in india). In bhutan they are known as ngalops or the earliest converts (see ngalops of bhutan) and in sikkim they are known as denzongpas.The history of sikkim tells us that a tribal chief by the name of khyebhumsar in came from minyak in the eastern part of kham and settled in sikkim whose decendent became the kings of sikkim. Just wanna tell that the history of tangut people is not lost but still breathing and thriving . should redirect here.-- 189.62.170.155 ( talk) 15:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
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Walt 45805 9/14/11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walt 45805 ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 14 September 2011 (UTC) Just checked this after reading the turgid and not very reliable article on "Tangut." Here is another Dunnell-free entry! Even if for some reason the author does not feel like consulting or crediting the best-known authority (in English) on Western Xia history, readers certainly deserve to know about her book. This is another eccentric entry on Tanggut/Western Xia topics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walt 45805 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Other authors
http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA262#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (
talk)
06:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA164#v=onepage&q&f=false
page 288
Title Tanguts and the Tangut State of Ta Hsia Author Ruth W. Dunnell Edition reprint Publisher Princeton University, 1983
松漠纪闻 洪皓撰
Song mo ji wen by Hong Hao (Hung Hao)
https://zh.wikisource.org/zh/%E6%9D%BE%E6%BC%A0%E7%B4%80%E8%81%9E
回鶻自唐末浸微,本朝盛時,有入居秦川為熟戶者。女真破陝,悉徙之燕山、甘、涼、瓜、沙。舊皆有族帳,後悉羈縻於西夏,唯居四郡外地者,頗自為國,有君長。其人卷髮深目,眉脩而濃,自眼睫而下多虬髯。士多瑟瑟珠玉,帛有兜羅綿、毛㲲、狨錦、注絲、熟綾、斜褐。藥有膃肭臍、硇砂。香有乳香、安息、篤耨。善造賓鐵刀劍、烏金銀器。多為商賈於燕,載以橐駝過夏地,夏人率十而指一,必得其最上品者,賈人苦之。後以物美惡雜貯毛連中,毛連以羊毛緝之,單其中,兩頭為袋,以毛繩或綫封之。有甚粗者,有間以雜色毛者則輕細。然所征亦不貲。其來浸熟,始厚賂稅吏,密識其中下品,俾指之。尤能別珍寶,蕃、漢為市者,非其人為儈則不能售價。奉釋氏最甚,共為一堂,塑佛像其中,每齋必刲羊,或酒酣以指染血塗佛口,或捧其足而鳴之,謂為親敬。誦經則衣袈裟,作西竺語,燕人或俾之祈禱,多驗。婦人類男人,白晢,著青衣,如中國道服。然以薄青紗冪首而見其面。其居秦川時,女未嫁者先與漢人通,有生數子年近三十始能配其種類。媒妁來議者,父母則曰,吾女嘗與某人某人昵,以多為勝,風俗皆然。其在燕者皆久居業成,能以金相瑟瑟為首飾,如釵頭形而曲一二寸,如古之笄狀。又善結金綫相瑟瑟為珥及巾環,織熟錦、熟綾、注絲、綫羅等物。又以五色綫織成袍,名曰「尅絲」,甚華麗。又善撚金綫別作一等,背織花樹,用粉繳,經歲則不佳,唯以打換達靼。辛酉歲,金國肆眚,皆許西歸,多留不反。今亦有目微深而髯不虬者,蓋與漢兒通而生也。
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1705168
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011569408
http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA256#v=onepage&q&f=false
Are we sure that this book is correct about the "Yarlung" river, which the Wikipedia author has probably expanded to "Yarlung Tsangpo"? I think it's more likely to be the Yalong tributary of the Yangzi, the upper valley of which is known in Tibetan as "Minyak", which contains Karma Kargyupa monasteries, and above all Qiangic (non-Tibetan) Sino-Tibetan languages probably closely related to Tangut if not descended from it, including a poorly described one called Muya (of which "Minyak" is a synonym). UnknownSage ( talk) 03:41, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Can we start using Mark Miyake's "simplified notation suitable for lay publications" to transcribe the Tangut language? He presents it here: http://amritas.com/150110.htm#01052345 ... when I first saw this page a while ago, knowing nothing of Tangut, I found transcriptions like /*phiow¹-bjij²-lhjij-lhjij²/ so odd to look at that I had a hard time believing it was not a typo. Now, having learned a slight bit about the language, that does not seem to have been necessary. There's a lot we don't know about the specifics of how Tangut was pronounced, especially as far as how the different rime grades were pronounced, that it seems pointless to try to be so specific. Miyake represents the grades with numbers. He suggests that lay publications use a simplified form with no numbers for grades, no tone marks, and no letters for phonation other than n for nasalisation. In the example I mentioned above, /io/ is Gong's grade II (I believe) of "o" and /jij/ is grade III of "e". So, Miyake's reconstruction would be, I believe, phow-be-lhe-lhe. Much easier on the eyes.
On second thought, I don't see how we can switch without finding a specific source for Miyake's transcription of each character in question, or, at least, an authoritative key for translating between the two transcriptions. – Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 05:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Any thoughts on reopening discussions about moving this page to Tangut Empire? In principle, other possible titles include Xixia, Xixia Empire, Western Xia dynasty, Western Hsia, and many other permutations.
Personally, the title of this article sticks out to me in a bad way because the Tangutologists that I’m familiar with use the term “Tangut” rather than some variation on Hsia, and also because it seems to natural to me that, for example, if someone were describing the destruction of this state by the Mongols, I would expect it to be referred to as “the Tanguts”. However, I can understand the contrary argument that the conventional name of the imperial people is “Tanguts” but the conventional name of the state is the Chinese “etc. Xia”.
Additionally, “Western” seems odd in this title because in English it seems to imply that there is also an “Eastern Xia”, etc., whereas in Chinese it implies something more like “Xia, which is in the west” (much as the Chinese word for Tibet is “Xizang”, i.e. “ Tsang, which is in the west”). If we decide to keep this article at some variant of the Chinese name, perhaps we could consider moving it to Xixia. – Greg Pandatshang ( talk) 18:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
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