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Deatailed history of use a really unique and valuable text, i am just not sure the source/voice relationships sometimes. For instance w/gender classes, citation would righly cite "her" pronoun for place/object, whereas passive/neutral voice suggest "it". -dkz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkz999 ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Whidbey the first sentence in the History section does not complete the thought.
I have doubts about the caption for the photo of the bombs at RAF Bardney: The caption says it's November but the trees appear to be in full leaf. 216.52.207.104 ( talk) 21:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
"Barnes Wallis had considered the strategic use of bombs to destroy the enemy's capacity to wage war by hitting its infrastructure and manufacturing bases and to this end developed improved bomb designs based on large single bombs early in the war."
What did Wallis consider about the strategic use of bombs? As being a better use of them then on the battlefield or dropped on citzens to induce fear, or as the solution to the winning the war?
The terminal velocity mentioned in the article can not be acchieved when the bomb is dropped form a Lancaster bomber.
If dropped from 6100m, the terminal velocity is about the speed of sound, bot only if you ignore drag.
Roland
Tirpitz was not tranferred to Tromso for reparation. It schould serve as a floatig coastal battery.-- WerWil 13:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The bombing of 'The eagles nest' is well footnoted as 'apeared to have been effective' from a proper historical source... but it's questionable how effective it really was, the building is still standing, and it's own history page claims to have never been bombed. (both the wikipedia entry, and the official website)
65.49.176.158 13:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The text says that the tail was about half the length of the bomb, but it's obviously much shorter than this. Is the picture of an earlier design or is the text talking about the "tail" as in the non-explosive part, and not just the fins? It should be clarified. KarlM 02:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Karl
Have a look at the pictures of the Grand Slam which is simply a scaled up version of Tallboy, and you can see clearly how long the tail is. I have prepared these bombs (both sizes) and the tail, which is all one piece, really is around half the length of the bomb 84.71.178.213 ( talk) 06:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Not logged in. Sorry Laurie53 ( talk) 06:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The bomb portrayed in the image associated with this article is NOT a Tallboy. As mentioned above, the Tallboy was visually identical, overall, to the larger Grand Slam. Not sure what the bomb in the image here IS, but it's not a Tallboy. Images of an actual Tallboy may be found here: http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,tallboy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.94.46 ( talk) 18:07, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
For the sake of ending edits like [1], here’s a quick calculation of the speed at impact without air resistance. From high school physics, for constant we have
and hence
from which we get
For the altitudes given in the article, and . Solving for (the speed of sound; it varies with air density, but we only want an estimate anyway), . This does not actually give any estimate of the terminal velocity, but should be enough to refute that edit. — xyzzy n 15:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi xyzzy, I have a serious problem with this sentence: "It was ballistically perfect and in consequence had a very high terminal velocity, variously estimated at 3,600 and 3,700 feet per second (1,100–1,130 m/s or about 2,500 mph / 4,022 km/h), which was, of course, a good deal faster than sound so that, as with the V-2 rocket, the noise of its fall would be heard after that of the explosion." This seems to imply that the bomb is reaching a velocity of 1,100–1,130 m/s. This is wrong!!!! The maximum velocity the bomb hit the ground with (in WWII) is much, much lower - see my edit above. Regards, Greg
The article makes it clear that the source you have taken issue with is, in fact, an external quote. I do not think Wikipedia should be in the habit of amending external sources of quotes. Either find a better quote or make it clear via the text that doubt exists. It's a good quote, so I suggest leaving it. Cheers, Martin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.165.90 ( talk) 14:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Great point made by xyzzy! I was cleaning up the Chinese version of this article today and traced down to here! This is by all means a silly quote, although I believe the original author probably meant that such aerodynamic design allows (in theory) a maximum speed of 1100 m/s in air, not that of a 12,000 m delivery——a very ambiguous style of writing, thumbs down.
SzMith
randir ❈
Ered Luin ❈ 04:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
A H Midgley was my great grandfather. He designed the fuse for the Tall-Boy and the W Bomb and, although I'm yet to confirm it on the internet, the Bouncing Bomb. He was a British inventor who specialised in valve switches, having previously designed a number of switches for organs, cookers, cars etc. At the time of designing the fuse for the Tall-Boy he worked through h Midgley Harmer Ltd in Middlesex.
86.131.64.72 ( talk) 00:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Andrew Lloyd Midgley andymidgey@mac.com
Tallboy (and its big brother Grand Slam) did not have a fuze (with a z) but a pistol. A fuze contained its own little explosive charge to initiate the main charge. A pistol was an inert mechanical device (easier to store and handle) which simply triggered, normally by impact, a separate detonator. Laurie53 ( talk) 07:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It'd be helpful if we could get the relative size of the bomb (compared to a human) in the image. Any pictures which show personale and the bomb at the same time? Oberiko ( talk) 20:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The image in this article does not show an actual Tallboy bomb. Not sure WHAT it is, but it's not a Tallboy, which was visually identical, overall, to the larger Grand Slam bomb. A good shot of the Tallboy (with humans in the frame for reference scale) may be found here: http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,tallboy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.94.46 ( talk) 18:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
It just seems like too much of a coincidence that the number 617 would appear in both the squad number and the number of airplanes. I suggest removing the 969 number before that is confirmed. Should also be removed from the heligoland article. Although operations with 1000 bombers were probably not uncommon, i wonder if heligoland would be such an important target. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.227.45.59 ( talk) 17:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I've checked with the Bomber Command War Diary (Middlebrook and Everitt) which confirms the numbers, so I have added the same reference for the numbers as for the losses. Heligoland commands the approached to Hamburg, which the British were just about to take, and could have prevented the use of the port. OK the port was largly ruined, but we are at a stage of the war when on land two Hitler Youth with a WWI rifle get a full artillery barrage to remove them, so 900+ aircraft is just showing what the RAF can do. Andrewshobley ( talk) 08:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Quote : Tallboy was designed to be dropped from an optimal altitude of 18,000 feet .....
...and the bomb-bay doors had to be adapted. Even then the Lancaster was not capable of reaching the bomb's intended dropping height of 40,000 ft (12,200 m) but only around 25,000 (7,700 m).
Huh ? Rcbutcher ( talk) 09:10, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
February 8 [1944] (evening) Twelve British Lancaster bombers attack Limoges, France. They destroy most of the Gnome et Rhône airplane-engine factory. All planes return to England safely. A 12,000-pound bomb is dropped for the first time. [84.214,346] http://ww2timeline.info/ww21944.htm -- 37.190.52.21 ( talk) 04:41, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Five times 2,000 is 10,000. Right? Tmangray ( talk) 04:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
The long ton -which in the UK is/was the ton used -is 2,240 lb. GraemeLeggett ( talk) 05:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Long_ton 1 long ton = 2240 lb ∴ 12,000 lb = 5.357 long tons /info/en/?search=Tonne 1 tonne ≈ 2204.6 lb ∴ 12,000 lb = 5.443 Metric tonnes /info/en/?search=Tallboy_(bomb) 12,000 lb "5 long tons (5.1 t)" NO WAY ! 12,000 lb ≠ 5 long tons ≠ 5.1 t 12,000 lb = 5.357 long tons = 5.443 tonnes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Red.leaf.flyers ( talk • contribs) 00:20, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
I changed the infobox picture for the following reasons.
Catsmeat ( talk) 16:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
In the section regarding operations in support of Operation Crossbow, mention is made of the bombing of the Watten Bunker. If the writer had taken the trouble to 1. READ the books "The Dam Busters" and "Cheshire VC" written by Paul Brickhill, 2. Visited the Blok Haus, and maybe 3. Tracked down several members of the RAF who took part in the bombing of the Blok Haus to which the writer refers (several are still 2016, still alive), they would then have learnt that the 617 Squadron went several times to attempt to bomb the blok haus, and on the 25th July 1944 the atmosphere was so clear that no marking of the target was required. From an altitude of 20000 feet and 2 miles back the Tallboys were released with 30 minute delays on the fuses - no explosions were noted. Photographs taken just over 30 minutes after the bombs had been dropped revealed that the Blok Haus received "... Five direct hits, and half a dozen very-very near misses..." When the advancing armies of the allies reached Watten "...They found that "tallboys" had smashed the roof and wrecked the building inside so badly the Germans abandoned it..." A visit to the Blok Haus shows the proximity of the near misses along with the hole in the roof and the wreckage inflicted by the penetration of the tallboys into the structure. The hole in the roof is clearly visible on Google Earth! 617 Squadron permanently put the Watten Bunker out of action and the evidence is still there to see. My late father in law was on the raid and was a tail gunner in one of the Lancaster bombers, I am also in regular contact with a dear friend who also was on the same raid and he too served as a tail gunner. When in 2013 my wife and I mentioned to him that we had visited the Watten Bunker he, completely unbidden, said "Did you see the hole in the roof which we put ther in July 1944?" As an aside the bunker also serves as a memorial to several hundreds of slave workers who were entombed in the structure and the local population of about 8000 people, less than 1000 came home after the war ended. If you wish to make remarks about a bomb raid please ensure you check your facts as otherwise you insult the very brave men who put their lives on the line and all too often paid a terrible price. To those who died at Watten and elsewhere may they all rest in peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.231.231 ( talk) 14:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
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Hi there
It seems like the second bomb failure has just been found: https://szczecin.onet.pl/swinoujscie-odnaleziono-bombe-tallboy-z-ii-wojny-swiatowej/gqnn9hg (article in Polish). Keep an eye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Witkacy26 ( talk • contribs) 11:29, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Deatailed history of use a really unique and valuable text, i am just not sure the source/voice relationships sometimes. For instance w/gender classes, citation would righly cite "her" pronoun for place/object, whereas passive/neutral voice suggest "it". -dkz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkz999 ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Whidbey the first sentence in the History section does not complete the thought.
I have doubts about the caption for the photo of the bombs at RAF Bardney: The caption says it's November but the trees appear to be in full leaf. 216.52.207.104 ( talk) 21:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
"Barnes Wallis had considered the strategic use of bombs to destroy the enemy's capacity to wage war by hitting its infrastructure and manufacturing bases and to this end developed improved bomb designs based on large single bombs early in the war."
What did Wallis consider about the strategic use of bombs? As being a better use of them then on the battlefield or dropped on citzens to induce fear, or as the solution to the winning the war?
The terminal velocity mentioned in the article can not be acchieved when the bomb is dropped form a Lancaster bomber.
If dropped from 6100m, the terminal velocity is about the speed of sound, bot only if you ignore drag.
Roland
Tirpitz was not tranferred to Tromso for reparation. It schould serve as a floatig coastal battery.-- WerWil 13:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The bombing of 'The eagles nest' is well footnoted as 'apeared to have been effective' from a proper historical source... but it's questionable how effective it really was, the building is still standing, and it's own history page claims to have never been bombed. (both the wikipedia entry, and the official website)
65.49.176.158 13:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The text says that the tail was about half the length of the bomb, but it's obviously much shorter than this. Is the picture of an earlier design or is the text talking about the "tail" as in the non-explosive part, and not just the fins? It should be clarified. KarlM 02:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Karl
Have a look at the pictures of the Grand Slam which is simply a scaled up version of Tallboy, and you can see clearly how long the tail is. I have prepared these bombs (both sizes) and the tail, which is all one piece, really is around half the length of the bomb 84.71.178.213 ( talk) 06:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Not logged in. Sorry Laurie53 ( talk) 06:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The bomb portrayed in the image associated with this article is NOT a Tallboy. As mentioned above, the Tallboy was visually identical, overall, to the larger Grand Slam. Not sure what the bomb in the image here IS, but it's not a Tallboy. Images of an actual Tallboy may be found here: http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,tallboy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.94.46 ( talk) 18:07, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
For the sake of ending edits like [1], here’s a quick calculation of the speed at impact without air resistance. From high school physics, for constant we have
and hence
from which we get
For the altitudes given in the article, and . Solving for (the speed of sound; it varies with air density, but we only want an estimate anyway), . This does not actually give any estimate of the terminal velocity, but should be enough to refute that edit. — xyzzy n 15:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi xyzzy, I have a serious problem with this sentence: "It was ballistically perfect and in consequence had a very high terminal velocity, variously estimated at 3,600 and 3,700 feet per second (1,100–1,130 m/s or about 2,500 mph / 4,022 km/h), which was, of course, a good deal faster than sound so that, as with the V-2 rocket, the noise of its fall would be heard after that of the explosion." This seems to imply that the bomb is reaching a velocity of 1,100–1,130 m/s. This is wrong!!!! The maximum velocity the bomb hit the ground with (in WWII) is much, much lower - see my edit above. Regards, Greg
The article makes it clear that the source you have taken issue with is, in fact, an external quote. I do not think Wikipedia should be in the habit of amending external sources of quotes. Either find a better quote or make it clear via the text that doubt exists. It's a good quote, so I suggest leaving it. Cheers, Martin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.165.90 ( talk) 14:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Great point made by xyzzy! I was cleaning up the Chinese version of this article today and traced down to here! This is by all means a silly quote, although I believe the original author probably meant that such aerodynamic design allows (in theory) a maximum speed of 1100 m/s in air, not that of a 12,000 m delivery——a very ambiguous style of writing, thumbs down.
SzMith
randir ❈
Ered Luin ❈ 04:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
A H Midgley was my great grandfather. He designed the fuse for the Tall-Boy and the W Bomb and, although I'm yet to confirm it on the internet, the Bouncing Bomb. He was a British inventor who specialised in valve switches, having previously designed a number of switches for organs, cookers, cars etc. At the time of designing the fuse for the Tall-Boy he worked through h Midgley Harmer Ltd in Middlesex.
86.131.64.72 ( talk) 00:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Andrew Lloyd Midgley andymidgey@mac.com
Tallboy (and its big brother Grand Slam) did not have a fuze (with a z) but a pistol. A fuze contained its own little explosive charge to initiate the main charge. A pistol was an inert mechanical device (easier to store and handle) which simply triggered, normally by impact, a separate detonator. Laurie53 ( talk) 07:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It'd be helpful if we could get the relative size of the bomb (compared to a human) in the image. Any pictures which show personale and the bomb at the same time? Oberiko ( talk) 20:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The image in this article does not show an actual Tallboy bomb. Not sure WHAT it is, but it's not a Tallboy, which was visually identical, overall, to the larger Grand Slam bomb. A good shot of the Tallboy (with humans in the frame for reference scale) may be found here: http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,tallboy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.94.46 ( talk) 18:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
It just seems like too much of a coincidence that the number 617 would appear in both the squad number and the number of airplanes. I suggest removing the 969 number before that is confirmed. Should also be removed from the heligoland article. Although operations with 1000 bombers were probably not uncommon, i wonder if heligoland would be such an important target. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.227.45.59 ( talk) 17:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I've checked with the Bomber Command War Diary (Middlebrook and Everitt) which confirms the numbers, so I have added the same reference for the numbers as for the losses. Heligoland commands the approached to Hamburg, which the British were just about to take, and could have prevented the use of the port. OK the port was largly ruined, but we are at a stage of the war when on land two Hitler Youth with a WWI rifle get a full artillery barrage to remove them, so 900+ aircraft is just showing what the RAF can do. Andrewshobley ( talk) 08:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Quote : Tallboy was designed to be dropped from an optimal altitude of 18,000 feet .....
...and the bomb-bay doors had to be adapted. Even then the Lancaster was not capable of reaching the bomb's intended dropping height of 40,000 ft (12,200 m) but only around 25,000 (7,700 m).
Huh ? Rcbutcher ( talk) 09:10, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
February 8 [1944] (evening) Twelve British Lancaster bombers attack Limoges, France. They destroy most of the Gnome et Rhône airplane-engine factory. All planes return to England safely. A 12,000-pound bomb is dropped for the first time. [84.214,346] http://ww2timeline.info/ww21944.htm -- 37.190.52.21 ( talk) 04:41, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Five times 2,000 is 10,000. Right? Tmangray ( talk) 04:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
The long ton -which in the UK is/was the ton used -is 2,240 lb. GraemeLeggett ( talk) 05:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Long_ton 1 long ton = 2240 lb ∴ 12,000 lb = 5.357 long tons /info/en/?search=Tonne 1 tonne ≈ 2204.6 lb ∴ 12,000 lb = 5.443 Metric tonnes /info/en/?search=Tallboy_(bomb) 12,000 lb "5 long tons (5.1 t)" NO WAY ! 12,000 lb ≠ 5 long tons ≠ 5.1 t 12,000 lb = 5.357 long tons = 5.443 tonnes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Red.leaf.flyers ( talk • contribs) 00:20, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
I changed the infobox picture for the following reasons.
Catsmeat ( talk) 16:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
In the section regarding operations in support of Operation Crossbow, mention is made of the bombing of the Watten Bunker. If the writer had taken the trouble to 1. READ the books "The Dam Busters" and "Cheshire VC" written by Paul Brickhill, 2. Visited the Blok Haus, and maybe 3. Tracked down several members of the RAF who took part in the bombing of the Blok Haus to which the writer refers (several are still 2016, still alive), they would then have learnt that the 617 Squadron went several times to attempt to bomb the blok haus, and on the 25th July 1944 the atmosphere was so clear that no marking of the target was required. From an altitude of 20000 feet and 2 miles back the Tallboys were released with 30 minute delays on the fuses - no explosions were noted. Photographs taken just over 30 minutes after the bombs had been dropped revealed that the Blok Haus received "... Five direct hits, and half a dozen very-very near misses..." When the advancing armies of the allies reached Watten "...They found that "tallboys" had smashed the roof and wrecked the building inside so badly the Germans abandoned it..." A visit to the Blok Haus shows the proximity of the near misses along with the hole in the roof and the wreckage inflicted by the penetration of the tallboys into the structure. The hole in the roof is clearly visible on Google Earth! 617 Squadron permanently put the Watten Bunker out of action and the evidence is still there to see. My late father in law was on the raid and was a tail gunner in one of the Lancaster bombers, I am also in regular contact with a dear friend who also was on the same raid and he too served as a tail gunner. When in 2013 my wife and I mentioned to him that we had visited the Watten Bunker he, completely unbidden, said "Did you see the hole in the roof which we put ther in July 1944?" As an aside the bunker also serves as a memorial to several hundreds of slave workers who were entombed in the structure and the local population of about 8000 people, less than 1000 came home after the war ended. If you wish to make remarks about a bomb raid please ensure you check your facts as otherwise you insult the very brave men who put their lives on the line and all too often paid a terrible price. To those who died at Watten and elsewhere may they all rest in peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.231.231 ( talk) 14:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi there
It seems like the second bomb failure has just been found: https://szczecin.onet.pl/swinoujscie-odnaleziono-bombe-tallboy-z-ii-wojny-swiatowej/gqnn9hg (article in Polish). Keep an eye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Witkacy26 ( talk • contribs) 11:29, 20 September 2019 (UTC)