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Because of various situations with the lead on this article, how about we jazz it up a bit like Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, etc...
Current text | Proposed text |
---|---|
Taiwan (
/ˌtaɪˈwɑːn/ ), officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in
East Asia. Its neighbors include
China (officially the People's Republic of China, PRC) to the west,
Japan to the northeast, and the
Philippines to the south. Taiwan is the most populous state and largest economy that is not a member of the
United Nations.
The island of Taiwan, formerly known as Formosa, was inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines before the 17th century, when Dutch and Spanish colonies opened the island to mass Han immigration. After a brief rule by the Kingdom of Tungning, the island was annexed by the Qing dynasty, the last dynasty of China. The Qing ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895 after the Sino-Japanese War. While Taiwan was under Japanese rule, the Republic of China (ROC) was established on the mainland in 1912 after the fall of the Qing dynasty. Following the Japanese surrender to the Allies in 1945, the ROC took control of Taiwan. However, the resumption of the Chinese Civil War led to the ROC's loss of the mainland to the Communists, and the flight of the ROC government to Taiwan in 1949. Although the ROC continued to claim to be the legitimate government of China, its effective jurisdiction has, since the loss of Hainan in 1950, been limited to Taiwan and its surrounding islands, with the main island making up 99% of its de facto territory. As a founding member of the United Nations, the ROC continued to represent China at the United Nations until 1971, when the PRC assumed China's seat, causing the ROC to lose its UN membership. In the early 1960s, Taiwan entered a period of rapid economic growth and industrialization, creating a stable industrial economy. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it changed from a one-party military dictatorship dominated by the Kuomintang to a multi-party democracy with a semi-presidential system. Taiwan is the 22nd-largest economy in the world, and its high-tech industry plays a key role in the global economy. It is ranked highly in terms of freedom of the press, healthcare, [1] public education, economic freedom, and human development. [a] [2] [3] The country benefits from a highly skilled workforce and is among the most highly educated countries in the world with one of the highest percentages of its citizens holding a tertiary education degree. [4] [5] The PRC has consistently claimed sovereignty over Taiwan and asserted the ROC is no longer in legitimate existence. Under its One-China Policy the PRC refused diplomatic relations with any country that recognizes the ROC. Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China, [6] but many other states maintain unofficial ties through representative offices and institutions that function as de facto embassies and consulates. Although Taiwan is fully self-governing, most international organizations in which the PRC participates either refuse to grant membership to Taiwan or allow it to participate only as a non-state actor. Internally, the major division in politics is between the aspirations of eventual Chinese unification or Taiwanese independence, though both sides have moderated their positions to broaden their appeal. The PRC has threatened the use of military force in response to any formal declaration of independence by Taiwan or if PRC leaders decide that peaceful unification is no longer possible. [7] |
Taiwan (
/ˌtaɪˈwɑːn/ ) is a
disputed partially recognised state in
East Asia situated between the
People's Republic of China (PRC) to the west,
Japan to the northeast, and the
Philippines to the south. It covers and area of 36,193 km² with a population of 23,550,077 inhabitants. Its capital city is
Taipei with
New Taipei City being the largest. The political entity, formally known by its official name, the Republic of China (ROC), covers not only the island of Taiwan but
the island groups of Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and its surrounding islands, with the main island making up 99% of its
de facto territory, is recognised by
11
United Nations
member states. While the PRC does not recognise the ROC as a sovereign state, the
United Nations and the majority of international states consider Taiwan as part of China under its designation
Taiwan, Province of China.
The island of Taiwan, formerly known as Formosa, was inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines before the 17th century, when European colonies of the Dutch and Spanish opened the island to mass Han immigration. After a brief rule by the Kingdom of Tungning, the island was annexed by the Qing dynasty, the last dynasty of China, which spans over 5000 years. The Qing ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895 after the Sino-Japanese War although the majority of Taiwan's inhabitants were Han Chinese either by ancestry or by assimilation. While Taiwan was under Japanese rule, the Republic of China (ROC) was established on the mainland in 1912 after the fall of the Qing dynasty. Following the Japanese surrender to the Allies in 1945, the ROC regained control of Taiwan. However, the resumption of the Chinese Civil War led to the ROC's loss of the mainland to the Communists who would proclaim the founding of the People's Republic of China, and the flight of the ROC government to Taiwan in 1949. Although the ROC continued to claim to be the sole legitimate government of all off China, its effective jurisdiction has, since the loss of Hainan in 1950, been reduced to Taiwan and its smaller islands although it disputes whether the ROC still lays claim to mainland China and Outer Mongolia based on its pre-1949 territories, which has not been the goal since 1992. [8] As a founding member of the United Nations, the ROC continued to represent China at the United Nations until 1971, when the PRC assumed China's seat, causing the ROC to lose its UN membership. The PRC, however, has consistently claimed sovereignty over Taiwan and asserted the ROC is no longer in legitimate existence. Under its One-China Policy the PRC refused diplomatic relations with any country that recognizes the ROC. Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China, [9] but many other states maintain unofficial ties through representative offices and institutions that function as de facto embassies and consulates. Although Taiwan is fully self-governing, most international organizations in which the PRC participates either refuse to grant membership to Taiwan or allow it to participate only as a non-state actor. Internally, the major division in politics is between the aspirations of eventual Chinese unification or Taiwanese independence, though both sides have moderated their positions to broaden their appeal. The PRC has threatened the use of military force in response to any formal declaration of independence by Taiwan or if PRC leaders decide that peaceful unification is no longer possible. [10] In the early 1960s, Taiwan entered a period of rapid economic growth and industrialization, creating a stable industrial economy. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it changed from a one-party military dictatorship dominated by the Kuomintang to a multi-party democracy with a semi-presidential system. Taiwan is the 22nd-largest economy in the world, and its high-tech industry plays a key role in the global economy. It is ranked highly in terms of freedom of the press, healthcare, [11] public education, economic freedom, and human development. [a] [2] [12] The country benefits from a highly skilled workforce and is among the most highly educated countries in the world with one of the highest percentages of its citizens holding a tertiary education degree. [4] [5] Taiwan is one of the Four Asian Tigers and it is a member of the WTO and APEC. Culturally, Taiwan combines the culture of Confucianist Han Chinese and Taiwanese aborigines which are often perceived in both traditional and modern understandings. The languages are Taiwanese Hokkien and Standard Chinese with the latter being the official language. It is known for its glove puppetry, bubble tea, Taiwanese tea culture and night markets. |
If there are any corrections, please discuss. Wrestlingring ( talk) 05:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
References
a second place ranking in the 2000 Economist's world healthcare ranking
HDI-2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).a second place ranking in the 2000 Economist's world healthcare ranking
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
covers not only the island of Taiwan …… with the main island making up 99% of its de facto territory" is inappropriate because that asserts that Taiwan and Penghu are the ROC's territories. Whether or not the ROC has territorial sovereignty over the two islands is disputable. Therefore I suggest that the text only mentions that the ROC is currently administering the two islands without asserting or implying that the two islands belong to the ROC. And the Taiwan, Province of China at the end should link to Taiwan, China. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 08:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
...a legal and political description referring to the territories under the actual control by the Government of the Republic of China (ROC),[1] consisting of the island groups of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and some minor islands.Are you taking issue with this legal and political description? Phlar ( talk) 22:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
a legal and political description" was just an overstatement. I had corrected it to "
a term used by the government of the Republic of China (ROC) to refer to the territories under its actual control". -- Matt Smith ( talk) 02:49, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Taiwan is a state in East Asia …" has been breaching Wikipedia's core content policy WP:NPOV for a long time, and that should not be allowed. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 10:30, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I think it works really well the way it is now. Nothing is 100% liked, but it's the best compromise we've had. At times it was "sovereign state", roc, etc... I see no need to go pearl diving again. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 22:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
The current article is incorrect. Being the consensus does not make it correct, neither does being the best compromise. The proposed change is worse though, so it should not be used. The best solution is to keep trying to create an article that is correct and also maintains NPOV. That might take a log time and be difficult to achieve, but so be it.
Roger 8 Roger (
talk)
03:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry but I can't take you seriously when you write Taiwan is known for bubble tea. It's like writing Japan is known for porn. Szqecs ( talk) 03:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The new proposal definitely sounds like PRC propaganda. It is obvious especially in German Wikipedia that many articles related to Taiwan are being manipulated in favor of the PRC. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schiedsgericht/Anfragen/Auff%C3%A4lliges_L%C3%B6sch-_bzw._Kommentarverhalten_bei_kritischen_Artikeln_%C3%BCber_die_Volksrepublik_China Even small proposed changes should be checked carefully...-- Peterpens ( talk) 10:47, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Since the period of 1949 to 1971 is not appropriate in this article, anyone incl. User:Matt Smith and User:Kanguole could discuss to expand the Republic of China (1949–1971) article. Wrestlingring ( talk) 04:32, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
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@ Lysimachi and Matt Smith: Enough from both of you. Edit warring is against site rules, and you're both making dubious claims in your revert messages to justify your reverts. There appears to be a healthy discussion on this page about this topic already, I advise both of you to refrain from editing this page further until a consensus is reached there. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I propose to remove the statement that the ROC "continues to view itself as the sole representative of China." in the political and legal status section, since the current DPP government does not view itself as the sole representative of China. Uaat ( talk) 02:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Also in the leading section, is there source the 20 countries that recognize the ROC, all recognize it as the "sole legal representative of China"? Otherwise it should also be removed. Uaat ( talk) 02:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The territory of the Republic of China within its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by a resolution of the National Assembly.) still applies. Alex Shih Talk 06:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
To meet the requisites of national unification, the following additional articles are added to the ROC Constitution…". The ultimate goal of these Articles is to achieve national unification. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 09:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Current text | Proposed text |
---|---|
Political and legal status The political and legal statuses of Taiwan are contentious issues. The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims that the Republic of China government is illegitimate, referring to it as the "Taiwan Authority" even though current ROC territories have never been controlled by the PRC. The ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces, and its legislation continues to view the ROC as the sole representative of China. |
Political and legal status The political and legal statuses of Taiwan are contentious issues. The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims that the Republic of China government is illegitimate, referring to it as the "Taiwan Authority" even though current ROC territories have never been controlled by the PRC.The ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces, and continues to claim all of China as its territory. |
If we're talking about legislation, I don't think "claim" is the right word to use. The UK has this outdated law where it is illegal to carry a plank down a street while singing (or something like that). We don't say British laws "claim" it's wrong. People make claims, not laws. Szqecs ( talk) 14:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
An edit war has recently restarted over this phrase. Of the two sources recently added, the second is a website of unclear authorship that cites Wikipedia articles as its sources – such "sources" should never be cited. The first is a textbook on international law, with a single page devoted to the standing of the ROC, with only a passing reference to the point at issue here. One would prefer a source providing a more specialized and direct treatment. But it does say, regarding UN Resolution 2758 in 1971, "Despite this, the ROC did not amend its claim to be the only legitimate representative of all Chinese people." That is a bit more subtle and precise than the bald claim added to the text: "The ROC ... continues to claim to be the sole representative of China." The latter is misleading, given that the current government and much of the population would not make such a claim. We should aim for a more precise and accurate wording. Kanguole 09:32, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
given that the current government and much of the population would not make such a claim", and that opinion is not a reliable source. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 09:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
What I saw from page 46, 48, 57-58 is that the ROC is using a "vague" strategy to deal with its embarrassing issue of territory because the amount it is controlling is a lot smaller than the amount it claims. Those pages do not say its claim has changed. Furthermore, page 36 says:
“ | …… At the same time, the old ROC territorial calim to China had disappeared from the yearbooks, even after the KMT regained power in 2008. However, this change did not result from any retraction of territorial claims: indeed, in an interview given in 2007, Lin Ching-fu (2007), an MOI official in charge of territorial management, confirmed that ROC territory had never been officially changed. In other words, the ROC national territory is officially maintained as it was in 1949. Judging from the recent 'ROC Map' produced by the Ministry of National Defence (MND) (Figure 2.1), this statement is evidently accurate. Figure 2.1 The 2006 version of the 'ROC Map' |
” |
-- Matt Smith ( talk) 16:53, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Taipei argued that the ROC represented one China." Besides, there is one more source that says "
Under the Constitution of the ROC, the authorities in Taipei still claim to be the legitimate government of the whole of China." -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:34, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
And what is "representative of China"? Specifically what is "China" but a piece of land? Is "representing China" not the same as "claiming China's territory"? Szqecs ( talk) 04:22, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:NOTRELIABLE:
“ | Questionable sources are those that ..., or have an apparent conflict of interest. Sources that may have interests other than professional considerations in the matter being reported are considered to be conflicted sources. | ” |
The government of Australia has political considerations on how they describe other governments, so it is questionable.
“ | Questionable sources should only be used as sources for material on themselves | ” |
Szqecs ( talk) 04:22, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Both claimed to be the sole representative of China and of all its territory. ...... Despite this, the ROC did not amend its claim to be the only legitimate representative of all Chinese people.
In August 1992, Taipei passed a resolution proposing a principle of one China, not to be confused with the one-China principle. Without challenging Beijing's definition of one China as the PRC, Taipei argued that the ROC represented one China. More importantly, the resolution stated, 'Taiwan is part of China, and the mainland is part of China as well' (Kan, 2013, p. 46).
Under the "one China, different interpretations" of the1992 Consensus, the Republic of China (ROC) and the People's Republic of China (PRC) both claim to be the sole representative of China.
and has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland." "Claim to the mainland" is a blanket phrase that stands for both the territorial and representative claims. Phlar ( talk) 16:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Or so Ms Tsai hopes. She and her advisers are considering new ways of describing Taiwan’s relations with the mainland which might replace or add to the 1992 formula.". 1992 formula has yet to be replaced, why? Because she openly ran on the platform of "
maintaining the status quo" ( see page 143) during the 2016 election. Alex Shih Talk 02:47, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Please understand that even the government is not above the constitution.
According to policy
WP:SYN: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.
" I would say your reason cannot be accepted unfortunately because it breached the said policy. Please find a reliable source which explicitly states your reason. --
Matt Smith (
talk)
04:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance." So please provide an English source instead. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 05:04, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
of equal quality and relevance"). And you are making up a definition ("supports the same point") that isn't mentioned by the policy at all. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 12:03, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
I really think these questions of "sole representative of China" and "the current government rejecting the one-China policy," etc. deserve thorough coverage in the Political status of Taiwan article. Couldn't you guys work on these topics there first, get that article in better shape, and then, if necessary, update the brief summary in this section here (in Taiwan#Political and legal status) based on whatever consensus is formed over there? The process I'm describing accords with WP:SUMMARY: It is advisable to develop new material in a subtopic article before summarizing it in the parent article. Phlar ( talk) 18:19, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Do we have consensus for "The ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces, and has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland
"? As I already noted above, "claim to the mainland" can be seen as a blanket phrase that stands for both the territorial and representative claims.
Phlar (
talk)
16:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
The ROC has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland, but government publications have increasingly downplayed it.This sentence can be sourced to Chang (2015), Place, Identity, and National Imagination in Post-war Taiwan, ISBN 978-1-317-65812-2, pp. 35–40, 46–60. Kanguole 17:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
A case involving User:Wrestlingring and User:Supreme Dragon has been filed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wrestlingring. They were heavily involved in China/Taiwan articles, especially regarding the naming dispute. Your input may assist with the case. Cheers! -- Triggerhippie4 ( talk) 18:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
In the 4th paragraph of the lead, there's a phrase, "Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China," that has been tagged as "disputed." I would like to remove "as the sole legal representative of China" and leave it at "20 countries recognize the ROC" because I see no evidence that all 20 countries have recognized the ROC as the sole representative. Recognition is one-sided: the recognizing country decides what it "recognizes," regardless of what the other country prefers, so there's no reason a country couldn't recognize both the PRC and the ROC, if it wanted to. Therefore, just because a country recognizes the ROC does not mean it sees the ROC as the "sole" representative. Phlar ( talk) 03:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China" is supported by a reliable source so it should not be removed. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 05:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Currently, Taiwan—the Republic of China (ROC)—is recognized by some twenty-seven states. Taiwan's diplomatic relations with these twenty-sevens countries do not constitute an international acceptance of Taiwan as a state, but rather represent a recognition of the ROC government as the represetative of China.
I also agree that it be removed. Szqecs ( talk) 09:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@
Kanguole:
You still haven't realized the point. Whether or not the recognition is exclusive is not directly related to the purpose of the recognition. In other words, the sources you are citing do not mention the purpose of the recognition so they cannot be applied in this matter.
If you want to challenge "Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China
", find a reliable source that says the opposite. So far, three reliable sources do not agree with you. --
Matt Smith (
talk)
11:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
a few smaller nationsrecognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China," which is how the sentence read until this edit three months ago. By the way, I'm glad to see that you've "seen the light" and are now accepting that a non-English source can still be used, even if there are other relevant English-language sources. Phlar ( talk) 14:44, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
I would also prefer to remove "sole legal representative of China." Unfortunately, I'm not able to view the source for "唯一的中國合法政府"---google books omits p.184. Does anyone know of another online version of this book? I would like to understand this "purpose" that Matt is referring to. Phlar ( talk) 15:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
maintain official ties with the ROC, but many other states maintain unofficial ties through representative offices and institutions that function as de facto embassies and consulates"? This also has the advantage of balancing "official ties" with "unofficial ties" later in the sentence, which might make the whole sentence easier for some readers to understand. Phlar ( talk) 17:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
maintain official ties with the ROC"). The nature of the recognition is a basic fact, isn't it? So isn't it supposed to appear in the lead even if the body of this article isn't discussing it? -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
recognizing it as the sole legal representative of China" from the "Foreign relations" section, because of the problems noted here, namely that it is contradicted by reliable independent sources. Kanguole 12:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research". If you use the same excuse again, I will ignore you and undo your revert. And if you revert once again, I will report you for breaching policy WP:NOR and disrupting the editing of Wikipedia. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:13, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The independent academic source I cited shows that those countries that have recognized the ROC in the last five decades were not recognizing it as the sole representative of China" is your original research. The source does not explicitly say that. Please read policy WP:NOR. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 16:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
目前中華民國在世界上的23個邦交國,他們對於中華民國的承認,也是承認中華民國是合法代表中國(包括中國大陸及10多億國民)的政府,而非承認中華民國是與中國無關的、是在臺灣的另一個國家。
As you already realized when you removed the suggestion from your own comment, I am glad to accept the “shorter and more concise” version that leaves the text as-is, without your addition. To repeat, we should omit the statement of the nature of the recognition because it has not been reliably verified for all 20 countries.. Phlar ( talk) 11:30, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
It does mean that, when an editor reaches or implies a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by a source in this discussion, you cannot say “you’re not allowed to say that because it violates NOR.” NOR doesn’t apply to talk pages. Phlar ( talk) 13:25, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
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This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
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Diplomatic missions
The Netherlands: Amsterdam (embassy)
Germany: Berlin (embassy) Munich (consulate)
etc. 87.170.209.120 ( talk) 02:56, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
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17 Further reading
Shelley Rigger Why Taiwan Matters: Small Island, Global Powerhouse Updated Edition ISBN-13: 978-1442204805, ISBN-10: 144220480X 87.170.209.120 ( talk) 00:44, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
The etymology section isn't clear on the Austronesian terms used to refer to the island prior to European or Sinitic contact/occupation. If such terms exist, I think they should be added, but I myself could not find any. → Σ σ ς. ( Sigma) 04:55, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
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For the infobox, can you amend the status of Taiwan to " Disputed"? It should include the two points:
-- 135.23.145.14 ( talk) 16:03, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
With proposer Aisakano blocked as a sock, and no-one else supporting them, this is not going to succeed. Closing per WP:SNOW or per policy for handling edits by blocked users.-- JohnBlackburne talk 03:50, 26 March 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Recently I made two identical edits in which I restored the content that was previously removed by Szqecs and Phlar, both of whom claimed it was "controversial".(see revision history) Nevertheless, in my revision, what was added was only the fact that Taiwan is a partially recognized state and one major establishing event that this state was expelled from the UN in 1971. I cannot understand why this is even "controversial" given that other articles of states with limited recognition like Republic of Artsakh, Kosovo, and Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic all follow the same pattern. Please post your comment on whether those content should be removed. -- Aisakano ( talk) 03:56, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't know what dictionary you two use but neither “partially recognized” nor “de facto” are objective. Here are the objective facts: Taiwan is not in the UN, Taiwan is recognized by 19 UN states. “partially recognized” and “de facto” are anything but objective.
Szqecs (
talk)
14:47, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
This again? I agree with Szqecs and Phlar this does not need placing so prominently in the lead. It is already explained more fully in the lead, and later on in the article in its own section. Adding it to the first section without explanation just confuses things. As for 1971 is is not a major landmark or milestone. See e.g. History of Taiwan which is not divided explicitly or in any meaningful way into pre-1971 and post-1971. We have a long history of editors disruptively trying to make this date more important than it is – see e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of China (1949–71) for one instance. It was not so important then, it is not so important now.-- JohnBlackburne words deeds 16:52, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | → | Archive 30 |
Because of various situations with the lead on this article, how about we jazz it up a bit like Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, etc...
Current text | Proposed text |
---|---|
Taiwan (
/ˌtaɪˈwɑːn/ ), officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in
East Asia. Its neighbors include
China (officially the People's Republic of China, PRC) to the west,
Japan to the northeast, and the
Philippines to the south. Taiwan is the most populous state and largest economy that is not a member of the
United Nations.
The island of Taiwan, formerly known as Formosa, was inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines before the 17th century, when Dutch and Spanish colonies opened the island to mass Han immigration. After a brief rule by the Kingdom of Tungning, the island was annexed by the Qing dynasty, the last dynasty of China. The Qing ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895 after the Sino-Japanese War. While Taiwan was under Japanese rule, the Republic of China (ROC) was established on the mainland in 1912 after the fall of the Qing dynasty. Following the Japanese surrender to the Allies in 1945, the ROC took control of Taiwan. However, the resumption of the Chinese Civil War led to the ROC's loss of the mainland to the Communists, and the flight of the ROC government to Taiwan in 1949. Although the ROC continued to claim to be the legitimate government of China, its effective jurisdiction has, since the loss of Hainan in 1950, been limited to Taiwan and its surrounding islands, with the main island making up 99% of its de facto territory. As a founding member of the United Nations, the ROC continued to represent China at the United Nations until 1971, when the PRC assumed China's seat, causing the ROC to lose its UN membership. In the early 1960s, Taiwan entered a period of rapid economic growth and industrialization, creating a stable industrial economy. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it changed from a one-party military dictatorship dominated by the Kuomintang to a multi-party democracy with a semi-presidential system. Taiwan is the 22nd-largest economy in the world, and its high-tech industry plays a key role in the global economy. It is ranked highly in terms of freedom of the press, healthcare, [1] public education, economic freedom, and human development. [a] [2] [3] The country benefits from a highly skilled workforce and is among the most highly educated countries in the world with one of the highest percentages of its citizens holding a tertiary education degree. [4] [5] The PRC has consistently claimed sovereignty over Taiwan and asserted the ROC is no longer in legitimate existence. Under its One-China Policy the PRC refused diplomatic relations with any country that recognizes the ROC. Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China, [6] but many other states maintain unofficial ties through representative offices and institutions that function as de facto embassies and consulates. Although Taiwan is fully self-governing, most international organizations in which the PRC participates either refuse to grant membership to Taiwan or allow it to participate only as a non-state actor. Internally, the major division in politics is between the aspirations of eventual Chinese unification or Taiwanese independence, though both sides have moderated their positions to broaden their appeal. The PRC has threatened the use of military force in response to any formal declaration of independence by Taiwan or if PRC leaders decide that peaceful unification is no longer possible. [7] |
Taiwan (
/ˌtaɪˈwɑːn/ ) is a
disputed partially recognised state in
East Asia situated between the
People's Republic of China (PRC) to the west,
Japan to the northeast, and the
Philippines to the south. It covers and area of 36,193 km² with a population of 23,550,077 inhabitants. Its capital city is
Taipei with
New Taipei City being the largest. The political entity, formally known by its official name, the Republic of China (ROC), covers not only the island of Taiwan but
the island groups of Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and its surrounding islands, with the main island making up 99% of its
de facto territory, is recognised by
11
United Nations
member states. While the PRC does not recognise the ROC as a sovereign state, the
United Nations and the majority of international states consider Taiwan as part of China under its designation
Taiwan, Province of China.
The island of Taiwan, formerly known as Formosa, was inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines before the 17th century, when European colonies of the Dutch and Spanish opened the island to mass Han immigration. After a brief rule by the Kingdom of Tungning, the island was annexed by the Qing dynasty, the last dynasty of China, which spans over 5000 years. The Qing ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895 after the Sino-Japanese War although the majority of Taiwan's inhabitants were Han Chinese either by ancestry or by assimilation. While Taiwan was under Japanese rule, the Republic of China (ROC) was established on the mainland in 1912 after the fall of the Qing dynasty. Following the Japanese surrender to the Allies in 1945, the ROC regained control of Taiwan. However, the resumption of the Chinese Civil War led to the ROC's loss of the mainland to the Communists who would proclaim the founding of the People's Republic of China, and the flight of the ROC government to Taiwan in 1949. Although the ROC continued to claim to be the sole legitimate government of all off China, its effective jurisdiction has, since the loss of Hainan in 1950, been reduced to Taiwan and its smaller islands although it disputes whether the ROC still lays claim to mainland China and Outer Mongolia based on its pre-1949 territories, which has not been the goal since 1992. [8] As a founding member of the United Nations, the ROC continued to represent China at the United Nations until 1971, when the PRC assumed China's seat, causing the ROC to lose its UN membership. The PRC, however, has consistently claimed sovereignty over Taiwan and asserted the ROC is no longer in legitimate existence. Under its One-China Policy the PRC refused diplomatic relations with any country that recognizes the ROC. Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China, [9] but many other states maintain unofficial ties through representative offices and institutions that function as de facto embassies and consulates. Although Taiwan is fully self-governing, most international organizations in which the PRC participates either refuse to grant membership to Taiwan or allow it to participate only as a non-state actor. Internally, the major division in politics is between the aspirations of eventual Chinese unification or Taiwanese independence, though both sides have moderated their positions to broaden their appeal. The PRC has threatened the use of military force in response to any formal declaration of independence by Taiwan or if PRC leaders decide that peaceful unification is no longer possible. [10] In the early 1960s, Taiwan entered a period of rapid economic growth and industrialization, creating a stable industrial economy. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it changed from a one-party military dictatorship dominated by the Kuomintang to a multi-party democracy with a semi-presidential system. Taiwan is the 22nd-largest economy in the world, and its high-tech industry plays a key role in the global economy. It is ranked highly in terms of freedom of the press, healthcare, [11] public education, economic freedom, and human development. [a] [2] [12] The country benefits from a highly skilled workforce and is among the most highly educated countries in the world with one of the highest percentages of its citizens holding a tertiary education degree. [4] [5] Taiwan is one of the Four Asian Tigers and it is a member of the WTO and APEC. Culturally, Taiwan combines the culture of Confucianist Han Chinese and Taiwanese aborigines which are often perceived in both traditional and modern understandings. The languages are Taiwanese Hokkien and Standard Chinese with the latter being the official language. It is known for its glove puppetry, bubble tea, Taiwanese tea culture and night markets. |
If there are any corrections, please discuss. Wrestlingring ( talk) 05:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
References
a second place ranking in the 2000 Economist's world healthcare ranking
HDI-2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).a second place ranking in the 2000 Economist's world healthcare ranking
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
covers not only the island of Taiwan …… with the main island making up 99% of its de facto territory" is inappropriate because that asserts that Taiwan and Penghu are the ROC's territories. Whether or not the ROC has territorial sovereignty over the two islands is disputable. Therefore I suggest that the text only mentions that the ROC is currently administering the two islands without asserting or implying that the two islands belong to the ROC. And the Taiwan, Province of China at the end should link to Taiwan, China. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 08:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
...a legal and political description referring to the territories under the actual control by the Government of the Republic of China (ROC),[1] consisting of the island groups of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and some minor islands.Are you taking issue with this legal and political description? Phlar ( talk) 22:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
a legal and political description" was just an overstatement. I had corrected it to "
a term used by the government of the Republic of China (ROC) to refer to the territories under its actual control". -- Matt Smith ( talk) 02:49, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Taiwan is a state in East Asia …" has been breaching Wikipedia's core content policy WP:NPOV for a long time, and that should not be allowed. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 10:30, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I think it works really well the way it is now. Nothing is 100% liked, but it's the best compromise we've had. At times it was "sovereign state", roc, etc... I see no need to go pearl diving again. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 22:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
The current article is incorrect. Being the consensus does not make it correct, neither does being the best compromise. The proposed change is worse though, so it should not be used. The best solution is to keep trying to create an article that is correct and also maintains NPOV. That might take a log time and be difficult to achieve, but so be it.
Roger 8 Roger (
talk)
03:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry but I can't take you seriously when you write Taiwan is known for bubble tea. It's like writing Japan is known for porn. Szqecs ( talk) 03:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The new proposal definitely sounds like PRC propaganda. It is obvious especially in German Wikipedia that many articles related to Taiwan are being manipulated in favor of the PRC. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schiedsgericht/Anfragen/Auff%C3%A4lliges_L%C3%B6sch-_bzw._Kommentarverhalten_bei_kritischen_Artikeln_%C3%BCber_die_Volksrepublik_China Even small proposed changes should be checked carefully...-- Peterpens ( talk) 10:47, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Since the period of 1949 to 1971 is not appropriate in this article, anyone incl. User:Matt Smith and User:Kanguole could discuss to expand the Republic of China (1949–1971) article. Wrestlingring ( talk) 04:32, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
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@ Lysimachi and Matt Smith: Enough from both of you. Edit warring is against site rules, and you're both making dubious claims in your revert messages to justify your reverts. There appears to be a healthy discussion on this page about this topic already, I advise both of you to refrain from editing this page further until a consensus is reached there. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I propose to remove the statement that the ROC "continues to view itself as the sole representative of China." in the political and legal status section, since the current DPP government does not view itself as the sole representative of China. Uaat ( talk) 02:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Also in the leading section, is there source the 20 countries that recognize the ROC, all recognize it as the "sole legal representative of China"? Otherwise it should also be removed. Uaat ( talk) 02:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The territory of the Republic of China within its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by a resolution of the National Assembly.) still applies. Alex Shih Talk 06:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
To meet the requisites of national unification, the following additional articles are added to the ROC Constitution…". The ultimate goal of these Articles is to achieve national unification. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 09:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Current text | Proposed text |
---|---|
Political and legal status The political and legal statuses of Taiwan are contentious issues. The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims that the Republic of China government is illegitimate, referring to it as the "Taiwan Authority" even though current ROC territories have never been controlled by the PRC. The ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces, and its legislation continues to view the ROC as the sole representative of China. |
Political and legal status The political and legal statuses of Taiwan are contentious issues. The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims that the Republic of China government is illegitimate, referring to it as the "Taiwan Authority" even though current ROC territories have never been controlled by the PRC.The ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces, and continues to claim all of China as its territory. |
If we're talking about legislation, I don't think "claim" is the right word to use. The UK has this outdated law where it is illegal to carry a plank down a street while singing (or something like that). We don't say British laws "claim" it's wrong. People make claims, not laws. Szqecs ( talk) 14:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
An edit war has recently restarted over this phrase. Of the two sources recently added, the second is a website of unclear authorship that cites Wikipedia articles as its sources – such "sources" should never be cited. The first is a textbook on international law, with a single page devoted to the standing of the ROC, with only a passing reference to the point at issue here. One would prefer a source providing a more specialized and direct treatment. But it does say, regarding UN Resolution 2758 in 1971, "Despite this, the ROC did not amend its claim to be the only legitimate representative of all Chinese people." That is a bit more subtle and precise than the bald claim added to the text: "The ROC ... continues to claim to be the sole representative of China." The latter is misleading, given that the current government and much of the population would not make such a claim. We should aim for a more precise and accurate wording. Kanguole 09:32, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
given that the current government and much of the population would not make such a claim", and that opinion is not a reliable source. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 09:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
What I saw from page 46, 48, 57-58 is that the ROC is using a "vague" strategy to deal with its embarrassing issue of territory because the amount it is controlling is a lot smaller than the amount it claims. Those pages do not say its claim has changed. Furthermore, page 36 says:
“ | …… At the same time, the old ROC territorial calim to China had disappeared from the yearbooks, even after the KMT regained power in 2008. However, this change did not result from any retraction of territorial claims: indeed, in an interview given in 2007, Lin Ching-fu (2007), an MOI official in charge of territorial management, confirmed that ROC territory had never been officially changed. In other words, the ROC national territory is officially maintained as it was in 1949. Judging from the recent 'ROC Map' produced by the Ministry of National Defence (MND) (Figure 2.1), this statement is evidently accurate. Figure 2.1 The 2006 version of the 'ROC Map' |
” |
-- Matt Smith ( talk) 16:53, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Taipei argued that the ROC represented one China." Besides, there is one more source that says "
Under the Constitution of the ROC, the authorities in Taipei still claim to be the legitimate government of the whole of China." -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:34, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
And what is "representative of China"? Specifically what is "China" but a piece of land? Is "representing China" not the same as "claiming China's territory"? Szqecs ( talk) 04:22, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:NOTRELIABLE:
“ | Questionable sources are those that ..., or have an apparent conflict of interest. Sources that may have interests other than professional considerations in the matter being reported are considered to be conflicted sources. | ” |
The government of Australia has political considerations on how they describe other governments, so it is questionable.
“ | Questionable sources should only be used as sources for material on themselves | ” |
Szqecs ( talk) 04:22, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Both claimed to be the sole representative of China and of all its territory. ...... Despite this, the ROC did not amend its claim to be the only legitimate representative of all Chinese people.
In August 1992, Taipei passed a resolution proposing a principle of one China, not to be confused with the one-China principle. Without challenging Beijing's definition of one China as the PRC, Taipei argued that the ROC represented one China. More importantly, the resolution stated, 'Taiwan is part of China, and the mainland is part of China as well' (Kan, 2013, p. 46).
Under the "one China, different interpretations" of the1992 Consensus, the Republic of China (ROC) and the People's Republic of China (PRC) both claim to be the sole representative of China.
and has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland." "Claim to the mainland" is a blanket phrase that stands for both the territorial and representative claims. Phlar ( talk) 16:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Or so Ms Tsai hopes. She and her advisers are considering new ways of describing Taiwan’s relations with the mainland which might replace or add to the 1992 formula.". 1992 formula has yet to be replaced, why? Because she openly ran on the platform of "
maintaining the status quo" ( see page 143) during the 2016 election. Alex Shih Talk 02:47, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Please understand that even the government is not above the constitution.
According to policy
WP:SYN: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.
" I would say your reason cannot be accepted unfortunately because it breached the said policy. Please find a reliable source which explicitly states your reason. --
Matt Smith (
talk)
04:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance." So please provide an English source instead. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 05:04, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
of equal quality and relevance"). And you are making up a definition ("supports the same point") that isn't mentioned by the policy at all. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 12:03, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
I really think these questions of "sole representative of China" and "the current government rejecting the one-China policy," etc. deserve thorough coverage in the Political status of Taiwan article. Couldn't you guys work on these topics there first, get that article in better shape, and then, if necessary, update the brief summary in this section here (in Taiwan#Political and legal status) based on whatever consensus is formed over there? The process I'm describing accords with WP:SUMMARY: It is advisable to develop new material in a subtopic article before summarizing it in the parent article. Phlar ( talk) 18:19, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Do we have consensus for "The ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces, and has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland
"? As I already noted above, "claim to the mainland" can be seen as a blanket phrase that stands for both the territorial and representative claims.
Phlar (
talk)
16:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
The ROC has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland, but government publications have increasingly downplayed it.This sentence can be sourced to Chang (2015), Place, Identity, and National Imagination in Post-war Taiwan, ISBN 978-1-317-65812-2, pp. 35–40, 46–60. Kanguole 17:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
A case involving User:Wrestlingring and User:Supreme Dragon has been filed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wrestlingring. They were heavily involved in China/Taiwan articles, especially regarding the naming dispute. Your input may assist with the case. Cheers! -- Triggerhippie4 ( talk) 18:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
In the 4th paragraph of the lead, there's a phrase, "Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China," that has been tagged as "disputed." I would like to remove "as the sole legal representative of China" and leave it at "20 countries recognize the ROC" because I see no evidence that all 20 countries have recognized the ROC as the sole representative. Recognition is one-sided: the recognizing country decides what it "recognizes," regardless of what the other country prefers, so there's no reason a country couldn't recognize both the PRC and the ROC, if it wanted to. Therefore, just because a country recognizes the ROC does not mean it sees the ROC as the "sole" representative. Phlar ( talk) 03:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China" is supported by a reliable source so it should not be removed. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 05:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Currently, Taiwan—the Republic of China (ROC)—is recognized by some twenty-seven states. Taiwan's diplomatic relations with these twenty-sevens countries do not constitute an international acceptance of Taiwan as a state, but rather represent a recognition of the ROC government as the represetative of China.
I also agree that it be removed. Szqecs ( talk) 09:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@
Kanguole:
You still haven't realized the point. Whether or not the recognition is exclusive is not directly related to the purpose of the recognition. In other words, the sources you are citing do not mention the purpose of the recognition so they cannot be applied in this matter.
If you want to challenge "Today 20 countries recognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China
", find a reliable source that says the opposite. So far, three reliable sources do not agree with you. --
Matt Smith (
talk)
11:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
a few smaller nationsrecognize the ROC as the sole legal representative of China," which is how the sentence read until this edit three months ago. By the way, I'm glad to see that you've "seen the light" and are now accepting that a non-English source can still be used, even if there are other relevant English-language sources. Phlar ( talk) 14:44, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
I would also prefer to remove "sole legal representative of China." Unfortunately, I'm not able to view the source for "唯一的中國合法政府"---google books omits p.184. Does anyone know of another online version of this book? I would like to understand this "purpose" that Matt is referring to. Phlar ( talk) 15:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
maintain official ties with the ROC, but many other states maintain unofficial ties through representative offices and institutions that function as de facto embassies and consulates"? This also has the advantage of balancing "official ties" with "unofficial ties" later in the sentence, which might make the whole sentence easier for some readers to understand. Phlar ( talk) 17:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
maintain official ties with the ROC"). The nature of the recognition is a basic fact, isn't it? So isn't it supposed to appear in the lead even if the body of this article isn't discussing it? -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
recognizing it as the sole legal representative of China" from the "Foreign relations" section, because of the problems noted here, namely that it is contradicted by reliable independent sources. Kanguole 12:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research". If you use the same excuse again, I will ignore you and undo your revert. And if you revert once again, I will report you for breaching policy WP:NOR and disrupting the editing of Wikipedia. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:13, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The independent academic source I cited shows that those countries that have recognized the ROC in the last five decades were not recognizing it as the sole representative of China" is your original research. The source does not explicitly say that. Please read policy WP:NOR. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 16:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
目前中華民國在世界上的23個邦交國,他們對於中華民國的承認,也是承認中華民國是合法代表中國(包括中國大陸及10多億國民)的政府,而非承認中華民國是與中國無關的、是在臺灣的另一個國家。
As you already realized when you removed the suggestion from your own comment, I am glad to accept the “shorter and more concise” version that leaves the text as-is, without your addition. To repeat, we should omit the statement of the nature of the recognition because it has not been reliably verified for all 20 countries.. Phlar ( talk) 11:30, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
It does mean that, when an editor reaches or implies a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by a source in this discussion, you cannot say “you’re not allowed to say that because it violates NOR.” NOR doesn’t apply to talk pages. Phlar ( talk) 13:25, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
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This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
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Diplomatic missions
The Netherlands: Amsterdam (embassy)
Germany: Berlin (embassy) Munich (consulate)
etc. 87.170.209.120 ( talk) 02:56, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
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17 Further reading
Shelley Rigger Why Taiwan Matters: Small Island, Global Powerhouse Updated Edition ISBN-13: 978-1442204805, ISBN-10: 144220480X 87.170.209.120 ( talk) 00:44, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
The etymology section isn't clear on the Austronesian terms used to refer to the island prior to European or Sinitic contact/occupation. If such terms exist, I think they should be added, but I myself could not find any. → Σ σ ς. ( Sigma) 04:55, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
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For the infobox, can you amend the status of Taiwan to " Disputed"? It should include the two points:
-- 135.23.145.14 ( talk) 16:03, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
With proposer Aisakano blocked as a sock, and no-one else supporting them, this is not going to succeed. Closing per WP:SNOW or per policy for handling edits by blocked users.-- JohnBlackburne talk 03:50, 26 March 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Recently I made two identical edits in which I restored the content that was previously removed by Szqecs and Phlar, both of whom claimed it was "controversial".(see revision history) Nevertheless, in my revision, what was added was only the fact that Taiwan is a partially recognized state and one major establishing event that this state was expelled from the UN in 1971. I cannot understand why this is even "controversial" given that other articles of states with limited recognition like Republic of Artsakh, Kosovo, and Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic all follow the same pattern. Please post your comment on whether those content should be removed. -- Aisakano ( talk) 03:56, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't know what dictionary you two use but neither “partially recognized” nor “de facto” are objective. Here are the objective facts: Taiwan is not in the UN, Taiwan is recognized by 19 UN states. “partially recognized” and “de facto” are anything but objective.
Szqecs (
talk)
14:47, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
This again? I agree with Szqecs and Phlar this does not need placing so prominently in the lead. It is already explained more fully in the lead, and later on in the article in its own section. Adding it to the first section without explanation just confuses things. As for 1971 is is not a major landmark or milestone. See e.g. History of Taiwan which is not divided explicitly or in any meaningful way into pre-1971 and post-1971. We have a long history of editors disruptively trying to make this date more important than it is – see e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of China (1949–71) for one instance. It was not so important then, it is not so important now.-- JohnBlackburne words deeds 16:52, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
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