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A new development I just discovered a few minutes ago: the link to Soncino Babylonian Talmud for reader confirmation of text about the tahash is now "broken". A similar occurance 28 December 2010 made the Rashi commentary on Ezekiel 16 in Judaica Press Complete Tanach equally unavailable, leaving blank tan-colored fields where Rashi's commentary once appeared for the reader to confirm at that Jewish source that Rashi's commentary on Yechezkel-Ezekiel 16:10 said the Jonathan Targum renders tahas as "glory" (colored) shoes instead of "badger" shoes. The Rashi commentary was made unavailable then; the link to Soncino Babylonian Talmud Shabbath 28a,b has now become unavailable. Within a very short time two supportive texts at Jewish sources have been removed from possibility of immediate access by any reader of this article. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 01:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Given the guidelines for introductory text in the lead which state...
"The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article...It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article. This allows editors to avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, because the reader will know that greater detail is saved for the body of the article."
...is it appropriate for the lead to contain quotes such as:
a kind of leather or skin, and perhaps the animal yielding it (probably the dugong, compare Arabic ثذش dolphin, W.Gesenius Thesaurus Linguae Hebraeae [1500], A. Dillman–V.Ryssel [Exodus 25:5], G.E.Post [James Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible BADGER]); Assyrian taɧsu [Friedrich Delitzsch, R. Baentach Erech.xvi], for which Friedrich Delitzsch [Prolegomena 77ff; Assyrisches Handworterbuch 705] conjectures the meaning sheep(skin); J.H.Bondi [Egyptiaca I.ff] compares Egyptian ths, leather; see summary of views M'Lean-Shipley [Encyclopedia of the Bible BADGERS SKINS]; absolute 'ח Numbers 4:6 +; plural תחשים Exodus 25:5 +; —leather used for (woman's) sandals Ezekiel 16:10; elsewhere for cover of tabernacle Numbers 4:15, 'עור ת verses 6.8.10.12.14, ערת (ה)תחשים Exodus 25:6 26:14 35:7.23 36:19 39:34 (all Priestly Code or Narrative.)"
and
כג. וכל איש אשר נמצא אתו תכלת וארגמן ותולעת שני ושש ועזים וערת אילם מאדמים וערת תחשים הביאו
I am minded to simply remove these quotes, but am aware that our resident author will possibly take exception to this, so I'd like to establish consenus for this action here, or else prompt someone to attempt to rewrite the intro so that it complies with guidelines.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 00:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I decided to take the simplest approach as a way of getting started and maybe sparking a few ideas. The lead is divided by a new subheading "Variant readings of עורת תחשים" without rearranging the material. Then I added per policy a statement right at the beginning, at the end of the first paragraph, explaining the notability of the subject today. All of this is submitted as a tentative suggestion to begin the discussion. See if it can be improved. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 04:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the article Tahash is now complete and historically accurate. This concludes my involvement with this project which began last October. If others decide to vandalize it, or remove relevant, supported, reliable and verifiable information in order to advance their own Synthesis-by-Omission to support their own Original Research and Point of View (in violation of policy to "not promote a particular cause", thereby further compromising the integrity of Wikipedia) I will not attempt to correct them. My sole concern from the beginning has been to make the article as historically accurate as possible. The article as it now stands (04:13, 9 April 2011) is encyclopedic and historically accurate, and the reader will not be misled by a slanted presentation or by a lack of relevant visual information. It is now no longer my responsibility. The article is now complete. I have learned much, I thank the administrators for their support, and will turn my attention elsewhere. I wish them success in building a reliable encyclopedia. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 16:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
"Tahash" was developed by the community in seven key stages since the page was created 20:56, 9 February 2007:
The list is provided here as an historical overview of its development for the convenience of anyone who would rather not scroll through the entire edit history of the article. The controvery it generated is amply documented on this Talk page and its archives. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 14:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Many paragraphs in the article consist of only one sentence. It would be nice to try and have longer more coherent paragraphs that engage the reader, rather than single-line statements of fact.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 14:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Interesting subject. But the intro paragraph link to the KJV Bible texts as translation of tachash were obviously not supported by the body of the article. So I looked in the already provided biblegateway.com link for a version that used "tachash" or "tahash", but that site doesn't have one. I didn't want to completely obliterate the link that another editor provided and substitute another, so I chose the Wycliffe Bible translation there over the KJV, since most Christian Protestants trust the reputation of John Wycliffe. This was to make the intro express the main thrust of the article, in harmony with the cited conclusion of Hewlett that tachash does not mean "badger". I suppose a link to the actual Hebrew text would be useful to some students, but it might be "inaccessible" to too many people who just want information, and it wouldn't clarify anything. I enjoyed doing this one. A real change of pace. -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 06:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
A banner at the head of this article specified the need for more or additional verifiable citations. My curiosity, and former work as a proofreader, prompted me to go through the article and ask at several places, "is there some kind of citation that will back up this statement". I got many of them from simply reading the linked text of Natan Slifkin's book. Others I thought might be in earlier versions of the article (back when it read like a book or some professor's treatise!) Got a couple things from that. (One editor on this page suggested that maybe too much good info had been removed and that some of it ought probably to be put back. That was a cue to me to read the earlier versions.) I added very little of my own, but I hope I made the article better. It got plenty of citations at that point to back up what it says. That's when I thought the banner could be removed. I thought at one point that I was through monkeying with it, but other parts of it apparently needing verification kept nagging me to follow through. I now really think I'm through with it (I hope). It was more work than I intended, and I stayed up late, but in a way it was rewarding. I'm not even going to look at it again for about a month, and then if it still "reads well" I'll nominate the article for Good Article status. If I see another "needs additional citations" banner, I think I'll decline, with due respect, at least for now. The freedom to participate or not is a real plus at Wikipedia. Thanks. In a way, it was fun. -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 09:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
LittleOldManRetired has done a nice job rescuing a lot of material here. Among the things restored that I am unsure about is the unclean animals section. Yes, the Torah has a concept of clean and unclean animals. I have not seen any source that says that an unclean animal skin may not be used to cover the mishkan. The gemara in Shabbat seems to debate the point but I am not familiar enough to call it. Thoughts? Joe407 ( talk) 14:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
It just occurred to me that we've gotten away from the purpose of this page "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject"—so we should probably ask if removal of the section "Unclean animals excluded" would improve the article and "Reflect a neutral point of view". I don't think it would. However, if the article as it is now is not really balanced, I suppose an additional separate section could be included citing the views of those scholars who support the hypothesis that the tachash of Moses' day was an unclean animal and that the skins of such an unclean creature were used to cover the Mishkan. Natan Slifkin's book "Sacred Monsters" has a whole catalogue of sources favoring this opinion that could be listed in footnotes (with verifiable links, if they exist), just as was done in the intro paragraph about the description of the tachash in the Talmud, Midrash Tanchuma, Rashi's commentary and the Gemara. This might give the article a more "rounded" encyclopedic character expressing all points of view, which it already actually seems to have without it. So the other question would be to ask if it would be necessary to have such a separate section for the sake of encyclopedic balance—would it improve the article? I hope this is useful. Have a good weekend! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 17:26, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Anybody have a picture of the tachash to add to this article? That would help people understand what we are talking about. Debresser ( talk) 07:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Although I meant this as a joke, there are chumashim with drawings of all clean and unclean animals, and I am sure it will have some drawing for the tachash as well. If I happen to walk into one, I'll copy it. Debresser ( talk) 07:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I went back and looked at the picture of the blue antelope (Greater Kudu) in the earlier April 9 version of the article, and decided to put it in, not as an image of the Tachash, but, like the beads and the indigo dye sample, as an illustration of what the New Smith's Bible Dictionary entry for "badger" (KJV) as tachaitze says Hebrew Tachash looks like—bluish slaty-gray, from eastern Africa—and the animal in the picture is not only overall bluish slaty-gray, but it really has six colors too! This was exciting. So I would say, in my own humble opinion, that it very well could be a relative of the Tachash described in Rabbinical literature. Anyway, that's my excuse, folks. I hope it's O.K. (And once it was put in, I really liked the way it makes the article look.) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 02:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC) I also just now revised the link "Greater Kudu" in the picture caption so it takes the reader to the more relevant "Physical characteristics" section of that article which has a detailed description of the appearance of the animal's skin or hide. -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 03:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I am not convinced that the outer covering of the Mishkan was made of skins from an unclean creature. Joe407 (above) is convinced that such a thing is completely permissible as long as you don't eat its flesh, and Natan Slifkin in "Sacred Monsters" catalogues a number of scholars' opinions supporting this hypothesis. Debresser (above) says the animal could have been "tahor", and as such could have been used if slaughtered according to halakha. I think if a separate section expressing the "Unclean" hypothesis is placed in the article, it would probably fit best between "Tachash as blue antelope" and "Tachash as beaded skins" as a kind of rebuttal argument to the section "Unclean animals excluded". Based on my experiences in proof-reading texts, the structure of a section like this could be as follows:
I would rather not be the writer of such a section, firstly because I know next to nothing about what constitutes a "tahor" creature, secondly because I have a strong conviction based on tradition that no way "Unclean Tachash skins" could be a valid hypothesis—as so well expressed above by Aleksig6 (above) about the possibility of Moses himself covering the Mishkan with skins from butchered swine (I don't think so!)—which I think would make an excellent qualifying statement at the end, in a form such as this:
"However, this hypothesis presents the possibility that Moses himself could have covered the Mishkan with an outer covering of skins from butchered hogs." —end of section.
So the immediate questions to ask are:
I would like to urge and encourage anyone who is actually convinced that the article would be more balanced by including a section on "Unclean Tachash skins" to go ahead and compose one. The numbered outline above might be useful.
But first I would also like to see what other people think about it. So far there have been no further statements from others supporting this view since it was mentioned. But even if there aren't any, those who support the "Unclean Tachash skins" hypothesis could still write it. (Why not?)
With all due respect. Have a great week! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 21:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, guys, I did what I could to retrieve relevant factual info from earlier versions of the article, check and find verifiable and reliable sources for some of it, to check and revise what needed to be improved, and then somewhat modify the layout (not much) and do some general style clean-up. (I believe the pictures worked out well in helping the reader grasp what the article is talking about—Thanks to Debresser for the original suggestion!) It needed more work than I thought it did at first glance. I've read and re-read it over and over again for errors, for possible improvements, and to guage the degree of its readability, grammar and syntax until I don't know what else I can do to improve it. Whether it now actually merits a Good Article Nomination or a Peer Review, I can't really tell. What do you think of the result? I welcome any evaluative comments made in Good Faith. (Please be nice, guys, I'm still new to Wikipedia.) Thanks! (And now—I'm going to take a break!) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 05:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Everyone has a right to change their mind, so I relented, and decided to go ahead and add the new section "Unclean creatures proposed", making it as compact as reasonable and as neutral NPOV and readable as possible. The reader of an encyclopedia has a right to see all points of view, after all, and since I had already outlined the structure, I thought I might as well go ahead and write it (and I have the time). Thanks to Joe407, Debresser, and AlexSig6 for their discussion/debate (above) section "Unclean animals excluded", which gave me some ideas. I decided to go ahead and save you guys the trouble. Look it over and see what you think. Regards! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 20:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I just completed the major restructuring and rescue that I had said I would try to achieve, retrieval of relevant information from previous versions, with additional facts and links that appeared necessary to improve the article. Interruptions were frustrating, but I now realize that I could never have finished the edit in one sitting anyway. I started this last portion of the edit at 9:30 pm CST and only just now finished. I thank everyone who waited for me to finish—thanks for being so patient. Frankly, it was a ton of work that I didn't expect, but the article needed it badly. I got tired of seeing my User-I.D. listed in the edit-history, and because of that, and the number of edits I've done (with good faith), I feared that you guys might think I was trying to OWN the article. No way, Jose! I've done my part. Thanks for the appreciative comments (above). ——I'm disappointed that a couple of the links I retrieved that worked once and were fairly useful now appear to be defective or no longer active. I probably made a typo somewhere, but right now, I need to get some sleep. If any of you can repair the links, or make any other improvements in what I've contributed, have at it! I hope this article is better than it was. I'd like to look at doing a WP:GAN near the end of the month. You guys who've done a lot of editing here on WP will understand if I say I'm pleased with the results of my work on the article, but right now I'd rather not look at it again for a while, not even to check on it. Best Regards. Have a great week, people. I'm gone! (7:10 am CST) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 13:11, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Just a thought occurred this morning. I don't recall reading in any of the sources cited in the earlier versions and retrieved for the current one anything that explicitly states that Moses and the people actually slaughtered any animal to obtain taḥas skins for the Mishkan. Does any one know of such a text? Midrashim, Talmud, Rashi's commentaries, Gemorra, etc.— I think such a citation would be useful in the article. On the other hand, it would be equally useful if we could instead state truthfully or factually that "the Talmud and Rabbinic commentaries do not actually say anywhere that Moses and the people slaughtered any creature to obtain the prescribed skins for the Tabernacle, only that they donated them, that taḥashim came to Moses, who used the skins for the outer covering." Some of the sources cited in the current version of the article at this point say that the skins were already on hand when donations were called for and that they came to Moses freely given without regret. Citation of other sources that explicitly say that they actually slaughtered taḥashim with arrows or spears or cut their throats would present the opposite point of view. Any statement that taḥashim came to Moses and that he used the skins can be read either way, including the scenario where they simply came to him as finished skins from the donations taken from the people and he used them for the Tabernacle's outer covering as prescribed in the Torah. Anyone know of a text that says they killed taḥashim and presented the skins? I just couldn't find one. ( And there may not be one — either way, it doesn't make any difference to me. ) It would be an interesting point of view to include either statement in the article, but without adequate support for it no such statement, one way or the other, can be made. It could be challenged and removed as WP:OR. I thought it would be interesting if any of you knows a source that could be cited for either point of view. Best Regards, People! Thanks! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 19:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I have seen how images and spellings from original tongues can enhance an article or book. Earlier versions of this article featured Arabic spellings of tukhas and tucash (a word supposed to be like tachash) according to the cited sources (Enc. Jud., B-D-B, et al). So, thinking this would be a good idea, I linked in footnote the Arabic Life Application Bible text of Ex. 25:5 then linked with the ECTACO English-Arabic Dictionary to provide the reader with the Arabic spellings of "dugong", "dolphin", "porpoise", and "seal" (because the experts say tachash is like Arabic tukhash). Then I went to the list of Arabic alphabet characters at the bottom of the edit page to enter the Arabic spelling of tukhash on the page of the article. Problem is, I don't know Arabic, so I tried to render it by sight from the ALAB and ECTACO, but I couldn't get it to exactly duplicate the appearance of the word in either of those linked sites. Maybe I just tried too hard and went overboard in trying to make the article better. Is there someone here in the WP community who can check my spelling attempt and make it right? If what I did is just too much, we can just (undo) the edit. Appreciate it. (I tried.) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 14:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
If this article is about the Tachash, then why is the first sentence about Tachash skins, and the bolded beginning of the article is likewise "Tachsh skins"? Debresser ( talk) 16:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
This revamped article is not the work of one or two people. I'm pleased that I was able to use my expertise and training to put into writing the suggestions of people more knowledgable than I: Joe407, Debresser, AlexSig6, Editor2020, and others. It's the result of you guys' participation and consensus on what was needed and you deserve a lot of credit for how the article reads now. If I have not done a satisfactory job by you, my apology, and my thanks for having me aboard. Best Regards -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 21:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
LittleOldManRetired ( talk · contribs) is obviously the latest sockpuppet of Michael Paul Heart ( talk · contribs) back on his hobbyhorse again. All his edits under this or any other name should be reverted on sight. -- Steven J. Anderson ( talk) 06:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
My field is Middle Eastern antiquities and Medieval literature. This subject is familiar. I removed everything that was not supported by historically documented sources. If historical accuracy and reliable sources for encyclopedic information is your prime concern in this article, then it should be satisfactory. You can easily verify it for yourself by the links that were provided. Good luck. -- 69.66.209.3 ( talk) 22:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Dugongs don't have a single horn in the middle of their foreheads; narwhals do. 76.91.0.141 ( talk) 23:43, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Just completed digging up, checking, submitting "additional citations" requested by editors in banner top of article—and final last move fixed 2 sets defective links (my errors). Only question: started trying to get citations on my own, but discovered them in earlier versions, so why guys who put up request banner in first place didn't just get those copied out and put in article? Sure it's work! But nothing I did they couldn't do. Anyway, I'm out of here. It's a better article than it was a month ago. I have other things to do. -- Sniperscout ( talk) 08:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Note to 76.91.0.141 (above): your narwhal is now included by mention in article. -- Sniperscout ( talk) 08:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Came back to article find link "Bible difficulties explained (Google eBook)" intending to click to read—saw new changes by "student input" with ref to Josephus. I have copy, looked at it, found ref. to materials gathered to make tabernacle—parallel with Ex 35:21-29 at Ant. 3:5:8–3:6:1 [3.99-103]. Where Ex says "tahash skins" Josephus says "sheepskins, some of them dyed of a blue color" and says "for of these materials did Moses build the tabernacle". He doesn't say "tachash" anywhere in account of building tabernacle—only says "Tachas" as son of Nahor by Reuma his concubine Ant. 1:6:5 [1.153]. Only skins Josephus mentions in tabernacle are sheepskins. Sounds like Josephus "attempt to explicitly identify animal" source of tachash skins. At least one "historical source" seems made attempt. So got link from googlebooks for footnote, and did partial rewrite of "student input" with all due respect. I wish him well. -- Sniperscout ( talk) 04:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Tachash is not an animal in the Bible. I looked at the links to Exodus, Numbers and Ezekiel in the article, and those Bible links all say "badger". When I saw that I didn't need to read any farther. It's nonsense. Whoever wrote it obviously doesn't read the Bible, that's for sure! The article should be deleted. Former Baptist pastor, Senior Citizen Center. -- 184.97.61.143 ( talk) 21:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
1.I have read and consulted other translations over several decades. The link to the Bible in this article doesn't say "tachash". I meant that if the writer had read the texts he linked to the KJV Bible in the first sentence he would have seen that tachash isn't mentioned in them.
2.I read the link you provided to the earlier version of Tachash. You say it's "decidedly unencyclopedic". On the contrary, I found it to be as encyclopedic and chronological as Noah's ark, Kashrut, and Abomination (Bible). Your support of the current version of Tachash fairly invites rebuttal, point by point, from a worldly point of view—a scholarly, academic, futile in thinking and senseless point of view (Romans 1:22)—with suggestions for improving the article. Former Baptist Pastor, Senior Citizen Center 184.97.61.143 ( talk) 21:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
1.The banner asks for "additional citations for verification". Earlier versions of the article had them, but they were reverted. That's nonsense. Improvement —:
2.The first sentence says that Tachash is an animal referred to in the Bible, then gives links to the King James Version texts that don't have Tachash as an animal but have "badger" instead. That's nonsense. A reader not familiar with the Bible who hasn't read the whole article yet won't see this as proof but as a contradiction of the statement. Improvement —:
3.The current article states that the Talmud and Rashi's commentary describe the Tachash as "a kosher, one horned..."—but no citations or links are provided to support this claim. That's nonsense. Improvement —:
4.The current version says "Another hypothesis..."—no citation or link is given in this version to support this statement—whose hypothesis is it? where is it published? That's nonsense. Give the citation and source.
5."...similarity between tachash and the Arabic word tukhas, which means dugong..."—who says? citations needed. This is nonsense.
6.The Jewish Publication Society translation does NOT render tachash as dolphin or sea cow—it says "seal". This is nonsense! (and false)
7."...similar description in the Gemara."—the footnote links to a site without any identification of authorship or source, or evidence of any kind, of that site being a reliable source WP:RS. That's nonsense. (And no one has challenged this footnote link.) The online text link does not tell where in the Talmud is the "dispute regarding its identification", or the source of "one opinion" giving the clues, or whose multiple opinions say that the tachash is the same as the keresh. It doesn't say where is the text in the Gemara that says the keresh is a very large animal, that it is a kosher animal, and that it has a horn in the center of its forehead. Improvement —:
8."It is not explicitly stated if the tachash was a mammal or not." Nonsense. The article clearly says the animals variously identified as the tachash are all mammals—its the Bible itself (alone) that does not state explicitly if the tachash is a mammal or not. Improvement —:
9.Tahash in the English Versions. This is nonsense. Hewlett's argument does not apply to the skins used to make the tabernacle. The tabernacle was made and erected and consecrated before the Israelites were told what characteristics made an animal and its carcass unclean, and before they were forbidden to touch them. Some rabbis (citations have been given in earlier versions of the article) have argued that skins of an unclean animal were used, and that the tachash was a non-kosher animal. Hence, against Hewlett's argument, badger skins would not have been forbidden for the outer covering at the time the tabernacle was made.
10.According to Aryeh Kaplan's footnote to Exodus 25:5 in the online text Navigating the Bible II, several sources translated tachash as "blue". The Encyclopedia Judaica says that the tanna Judah thought they were skins dyed altinon, seemingly purple. The current version does not mention these sources. And that's nonsense. Wikipedia claims that all verifiable information should be included for an encyclopedic point of view to ensure a Neutral Point of View of the subject. These "blue and purple" interpretations were in earlier versions of the article and not included in the current version.
The article Tachash needs citations and a good rewrite. However, from my standpoint as a former pastoral counsellor, I see from the history of this article that it has not had a healthy effect on the editors and contributors who became involved. There has been obsession, error, rancor, bitter in-fighting, and edit-warring, as well as sockpuppetry and blockings of IP addresses and individuals. I have seen this before in my work. This is clear evidence that this article has an evil effect on people over and above what might be expected from its evident treatment of a minor subject, and far in excess of what would normally be expected from a Wikipedia article. For this reason I would urge that instead of improving the article, it should absolutely be deleted, expunged (how about destroyed), for the sake of readers and editors. If I'm right, a very strong reaction to the above critique will happen.
Former Baptist, Senior Citizen Center. 184.97.61.143 ( talk) 21:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Given this has only a one-line mention in Ark of the Covenant, and is only known of in relation to the Ark of the Covenant, should we not redirect to that article? One day if it is deemed worthy of a significant section there, we might consider splitting to a new article, but right now it seems rather incongruous to have a separate article.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 16:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I found the article page empty, except for a Redirect. I thought it could be made into an article.
I have tried to provide fresh material for the empty page "Tahash" which, at the time I first found it in Wikipedia by searching "Tachash", contained only a Redirect to "Tabernacle". After making a virtually new article, I became curious and clicked on to the Talk page here and read the entry above, and then accessed the Archives. I was surprised that essentially one form of the past material that was Tachash was the same odd and enormous material entry I found in my original online search for "Tachash skins", posted at http://www.thefullwiki/Tachash "Tachash – The Full Wiki".
After reading the Archives, I hope that what material I assembled here on the Article page, drawn from what I submitted in the previously-created article Badger skins, is an improvement. I wish you well. -- Encyclopedic researcher ( talk) 20:02, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
A new development I just discovered a few minutes ago: the link to Soncino Babylonian Talmud for reader confirmation of text about the tahash is now "broken". A similar occurance 28 December 2010 made the Rashi commentary on Ezekiel 16 in Judaica Press Complete Tanach equally unavailable, leaving blank tan-colored fields where Rashi's commentary once appeared for the reader to confirm at that Jewish source that Rashi's commentary on Yechezkel-Ezekiel 16:10 said the Jonathan Targum renders tahas as "glory" (colored) shoes instead of "badger" shoes. The Rashi commentary was made unavailable then; the link to Soncino Babylonian Talmud Shabbath 28a,b has now become unavailable. Within a very short time two supportive texts at Jewish sources have been removed from possibility of immediate access by any reader of this article. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 01:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Given the guidelines for introductory text in the lead which state...
"The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article...It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article. This allows editors to avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, because the reader will know that greater detail is saved for the body of the article."
...is it appropriate for the lead to contain quotes such as:
a kind of leather or skin, and perhaps the animal yielding it (probably the dugong, compare Arabic ثذش dolphin, W.Gesenius Thesaurus Linguae Hebraeae [1500], A. Dillman–V.Ryssel [Exodus 25:5], G.E.Post [James Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible BADGER]); Assyrian taɧsu [Friedrich Delitzsch, R. Baentach Erech.xvi], for which Friedrich Delitzsch [Prolegomena 77ff; Assyrisches Handworterbuch 705] conjectures the meaning sheep(skin); J.H.Bondi [Egyptiaca I.ff] compares Egyptian ths, leather; see summary of views M'Lean-Shipley [Encyclopedia of the Bible BADGERS SKINS]; absolute 'ח Numbers 4:6 +; plural תחשים Exodus 25:5 +; —leather used for (woman's) sandals Ezekiel 16:10; elsewhere for cover of tabernacle Numbers 4:15, 'עור ת verses 6.8.10.12.14, ערת (ה)תחשים Exodus 25:6 26:14 35:7.23 36:19 39:34 (all Priestly Code or Narrative.)"
and
כג. וכל איש אשר נמצא אתו תכלת וארגמן ותולעת שני ושש ועזים וערת אילם מאדמים וערת תחשים הביאו
I am minded to simply remove these quotes, but am aware that our resident author will possibly take exception to this, so I'd like to establish consenus for this action here, or else prompt someone to attempt to rewrite the intro so that it complies with guidelines.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 00:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I decided to take the simplest approach as a way of getting started and maybe sparking a few ideas. The lead is divided by a new subheading "Variant readings of עורת תחשים" without rearranging the material. Then I added per policy a statement right at the beginning, at the end of the first paragraph, explaining the notability of the subject today. All of this is submitted as a tentative suggestion to begin the discussion. See if it can be improved. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 04:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the article Tahash is now complete and historically accurate. This concludes my involvement with this project which began last October. If others decide to vandalize it, or remove relevant, supported, reliable and verifiable information in order to advance their own Synthesis-by-Omission to support their own Original Research and Point of View (in violation of policy to "not promote a particular cause", thereby further compromising the integrity of Wikipedia) I will not attempt to correct them. My sole concern from the beginning has been to make the article as historically accurate as possible. The article as it now stands (04:13, 9 April 2011) is encyclopedic and historically accurate, and the reader will not be misled by a slanted presentation or by a lack of relevant visual information. It is now no longer my responsibility. The article is now complete. I have learned much, I thank the administrators for their support, and will turn my attention elsewhere. I wish them success in building a reliable encyclopedia. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 16:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
"Tahash" was developed by the community in seven key stages since the page was created 20:56, 9 February 2007:
The list is provided here as an historical overview of its development for the convenience of anyone who would rather not scroll through the entire edit history of the article. The controvery it generated is amply documented on this Talk page and its archives. -- Michael Paul Heart ( talk) 14:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Many paragraphs in the article consist of only one sentence. It would be nice to try and have longer more coherent paragraphs that engage the reader, rather than single-line statements of fact.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 14:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Interesting subject. But the intro paragraph link to the KJV Bible texts as translation of tachash were obviously not supported by the body of the article. So I looked in the already provided biblegateway.com link for a version that used "tachash" or "tahash", but that site doesn't have one. I didn't want to completely obliterate the link that another editor provided and substitute another, so I chose the Wycliffe Bible translation there over the KJV, since most Christian Protestants trust the reputation of John Wycliffe. This was to make the intro express the main thrust of the article, in harmony with the cited conclusion of Hewlett that tachash does not mean "badger". I suppose a link to the actual Hebrew text would be useful to some students, but it might be "inaccessible" to too many people who just want information, and it wouldn't clarify anything. I enjoyed doing this one. A real change of pace. -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 06:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
A banner at the head of this article specified the need for more or additional verifiable citations. My curiosity, and former work as a proofreader, prompted me to go through the article and ask at several places, "is there some kind of citation that will back up this statement". I got many of them from simply reading the linked text of Natan Slifkin's book. Others I thought might be in earlier versions of the article (back when it read like a book or some professor's treatise!) Got a couple things from that. (One editor on this page suggested that maybe too much good info had been removed and that some of it ought probably to be put back. That was a cue to me to read the earlier versions.) I added very little of my own, but I hope I made the article better. It got plenty of citations at that point to back up what it says. That's when I thought the banner could be removed. I thought at one point that I was through monkeying with it, but other parts of it apparently needing verification kept nagging me to follow through. I now really think I'm through with it (I hope). It was more work than I intended, and I stayed up late, but in a way it was rewarding. I'm not even going to look at it again for about a month, and then if it still "reads well" I'll nominate the article for Good Article status. If I see another "needs additional citations" banner, I think I'll decline, with due respect, at least for now. The freedom to participate or not is a real plus at Wikipedia. Thanks. In a way, it was fun. -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 09:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
LittleOldManRetired has done a nice job rescuing a lot of material here. Among the things restored that I am unsure about is the unclean animals section. Yes, the Torah has a concept of clean and unclean animals. I have not seen any source that says that an unclean animal skin may not be used to cover the mishkan. The gemara in Shabbat seems to debate the point but I am not familiar enough to call it. Thoughts? Joe407 ( talk) 14:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
It just occurred to me that we've gotten away from the purpose of this page "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject"—so we should probably ask if removal of the section "Unclean animals excluded" would improve the article and "Reflect a neutral point of view". I don't think it would. However, if the article as it is now is not really balanced, I suppose an additional separate section could be included citing the views of those scholars who support the hypothesis that the tachash of Moses' day was an unclean animal and that the skins of such an unclean creature were used to cover the Mishkan. Natan Slifkin's book "Sacred Monsters" has a whole catalogue of sources favoring this opinion that could be listed in footnotes (with verifiable links, if they exist), just as was done in the intro paragraph about the description of the tachash in the Talmud, Midrash Tanchuma, Rashi's commentary and the Gemara. This might give the article a more "rounded" encyclopedic character expressing all points of view, which it already actually seems to have without it. So the other question would be to ask if it would be necessary to have such a separate section for the sake of encyclopedic balance—would it improve the article? I hope this is useful. Have a good weekend! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 17:26, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Anybody have a picture of the tachash to add to this article? That would help people understand what we are talking about. Debresser ( talk) 07:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Although I meant this as a joke, there are chumashim with drawings of all clean and unclean animals, and I am sure it will have some drawing for the tachash as well. If I happen to walk into one, I'll copy it. Debresser ( talk) 07:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I went back and looked at the picture of the blue antelope (Greater Kudu) in the earlier April 9 version of the article, and decided to put it in, not as an image of the Tachash, but, like the beads and the indigo dye sample, as an illustration of what the New Smith's Bible Dictionary entry for "badger" (KJV) as tachaitze says Hebrew Tachash looks like—bluish slaty-gray, from eastern Africa—and the animal in the picture is not only overall bluish slaty-gray, but it really has six colors too! This was exciting. So I would say, in my own humble opinion, that it very well could be a relative of the Tachash described in Rabbinical literature. Anyway, that's my excuse, folks. I hope it's O.K. (And once it was put in, I really liked the way it makes the article look.) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 02:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC) I also just now revised the link "Greater Kudu" in the picture caption so it takes the reader to the more relevant "Physical characteristics" section of that article which has a detailed description of the appearance of the animal's skin or hide. -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 03:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I am not convinced that the outer covering of the Mishkan was made of skins from an unclean creature. Joe407 (above) is convinced that such a thing is completely permissible as long as you don't eat its flesh, and Natan Slifkin in "Sacred Monsters" catalogues a number of scholars' opinions supporting this hypothesis. Debresser (above) says the animal could have been "tahor", and as such could have been used if slaughtered according to halakha. I think if a separate section expressing the "Unclean" hypothesis is placed in the article, it would probably fit best between "Tachash as blue antelope" and "Tachash as beaded skins" as a kind of rebuttal argument to the section "Unclean animals excluded". Based on my experiences in proof-reading texts, the structure of a section like this could be as follows:
I would rather not be the writer of such a section, firstly because I know next to nothing about what constitutes a "tahor" creature, secondly because I have a strong conviction based on tradition that no way "Unclean Tachash skins" could be a valid hypothesis—as so well expressed above by Aleksig6 (above) about the possibility of Moses himself covering the Mishkan with skins from butchered swine (I don't think so!)—which I think would make an excellent qualifying statement at the end, in a form such as this:
"However, this hypothesis presents the possibility that Moses himself could have covered the Mishkan with an outer covering of skins from butchered hogs." —end of section.
So the immediate questions to ask are:
I would like to urge and encourage anyone who is actually convinced that the article would be more balanced by including a section on "Unclean Tachash skins" to go ahead and compose one. The numbered outline above might be useful.
But first I would also like to see what other people think about it. So far there have been no further statements from others supporting this view since it was mentioned. But even if there aren't any, those who support the "Unclean Tachash skins" hypothesis could still write it. (Why not?)
With all due respect. Have a great week! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 21:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, guys, I did what I could to retrieve relevant factual info from earlier versions of the article, check and find verifiable and reliable sources for some of it, to check and revise what needed to be improved, and then somewhat modify the layout (not much) and do some general style clean-up. (I believe the pictures worked out well in helping the reader grasp what the article is talking about—Thanks to Debresser for the original suggestion!) It needed more work than I thought it did at first glance. I've read and re-read it over and over again for errors, for possible improvements, and to guage the degree of its readability, grammar and syntax until I don't know what else I can do to improve it. Whether it now actually merits a Good Article Nomination or a Peer Review, I can't really tell. What do you think of the result? I welcome any evaluative comments made in Good Faith. (Please be nice, guys, I'm still new to Wikipedia.) Thanks! (And now—I'm going to take a break!) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 05:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Everyone has a right to change their mind, so I relented, and decided to go ahead and add the new section "Unclean creatures proposed", making it as compact as reasonable and as neutral NPOV and readable as possible. The reader of an encyclopedia has a right to see all points of view, after all, and since I had already outlined the structure, I thought I might as well go ahead and write it (and I have the time). Thanks to Joe407, Debresser, and AlexSig6 for their discussion/debate (above) section "Unclean animals excluded", which gave me some ideas. I decided to go ahead and save you guys the trouble. Look it over and see what you think. Regards! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 20:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I just completed the major restructuring and rescue that I had said I would try to achieve, retrieval of relevant information from previous versions, with additional facts and links that appeared necessary to improve the article. Interruptions were frustrating, but I now realize that I could never have finished the edit in one sitting anyway. I started this last portion of the edit at 9:30 pm CST and only just now finished. I thank everyone who waited for me to finish—thanks for being so patient. Frankly, it was a ton of work that I didn't expect, but the article needed it badly. I got tired of seeing my User-I.D. listed in the edit-history, and because of that, and the number of edits I've done (with good faith), I feared that you guys might think I was trying to OWN the article. No way, Jose! I've done my part. Thanks for the appreciative comments (above). ——I'm disappointed that a couple of the links I retrieved that worked once and were fairly useful now appear to be defective or no longer active. I probably made a typo somewhere, but right now, I need to get some sleep. If any of you can repair the links, or make any other improvements in what I've contributed, have at it! I hope this article is better than it was. I'd like to look at doing a WP:GAN near the end of the month. You guys who've done a lot of editing here on WP will understand if I say I'm pleased with the results of my work on the article, but right now I'd rather not look at it again for a while, not even to check on it. Best Regards. Have a great week, people. I'm gone! (7:10 am CST) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 13:11, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Just a thought occurred this morning. I don't recall reading in any of the sources cited in the earlier versions and retrieved for the current one anything that explicitly states that Moses and the people actually slaughtered any animal to obtain taḥas skins for the Mishkan. Does any one know of such a text? Midrashim, Talmud, Rashi's commentaries, Gemorra, etc.— I think such a citation would be useful in the article. On the other hand, it would be equally useful if we could instead state truthfully or factually that "the Talmud and Rabbinic commentaries do not actually say anywhere that Moses and the people slaughtered any creature to obtain the prescribed skins for the Tabernacle, only that they donated them, that taḥashim came to Moses, who used the skins for the outer covering." Some of the sources cited in the current version of the article at this point say that the skins were already on hand when donations were called for and that they came to Moses freely given without regret. Citation of other sources that explicitly say that they actually slaughtered taḥashim with arrows or spears or cut their throats would present the opposite point of view. Any statement that taḥashim came to Moses and that he used the skins can be read either way, including the scenario where they simply came to him as finished skins from the donations taken from the people and he used them for the Tabernacle's outer covering as prescribed in the Torah. Anyone know of a text that says they killed taḥashim and presented the skins? I just couldn't find one. ( And there may not be one — either way, it doesn't make any difference to me. ) It would be an interesting point of view to include either statement in the article, but without adequate support for it no such statement, one way or the other, can be made. It could be challenged and removed as WP:OR. I thought it would be interesting if any of you knows a source that could be cited for either point of view. Best Regards, People! Thanks! -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 19:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I have seen how images and spellings from original tongues can enhance an article or book. Earlier versions of this article featured Arabic spellings of tukhas and tucash (a word supposed to be like tachash) according to the cited sources (Enc. Jud., B-D-B, et al). So, thinking this would be a good idea, I linked in footnote the Arabic Life Application Bible text of Ex. 25:5 then linked with the ECTACO English-Arabic Dictionary to provide the reader with the Arabic spellings of "dugong", "dolphin", "porpoise", and "seal" (because the experts say tachash is like Arabic tukhash). Then I went to the list of Arabic alphabet characters at the bottom of the edit page to enter the Arabic spelling of tukhash on the page of the article. Problem is, I don't know Arabic, so I tried to render it by sight from the ALAB and ECTACO, but I couldn't get it to exactly duplicate the appearance of the word in either of those linked sites. Maybe I just tried too hard and went overboard in trying to make the article better. Is there someone here in the WP community who can check my spelling attempt and make it right? If what I did is just too much, we can just (undo) the edit. Appreciate it. (I tried.) -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 14:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
If this article is about the Tachash, then why is the first sentence about Tachash skins, and the bolded beginning of the article is likewise "Tachsh skins"? Debresser ( talk) 16:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
This revamped article is not the work of one or two people. I'm pleased that I was able to use my expertise and training to put into writing the suggestions of people more knowledgable than I: Joe407, Debresser, AlexSig6, Editor2020, and others. It's the result of you guys' participation and consensus on what was needed and you deserve a lot of credit for how the article reads now. If I have not done a satisfactory job by you, my apology, and my thanks for having me aboard. Best Regards -- LittleOldManRetired ( talk) 21:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
LittleOldManRetired ( talk · contribs) is obviously the latest sockpuppet of Michael Paul Heart ( talk · contribs) back on his hobbyhorse again. All his edits under this or any other name should be reverted on sight. -- Steven J. Anderson ( talk) 06:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
My field is Middle Eastern antiquities and Medieval literature. This subject is familiar. I removed everything that was not supported by historically documented sources. If historical accuracy and reliable sources for encyclopedic information is your prime concern in this article, then it should be satisfactory. You can easily verify it for yourself by the links that were provided. Good luck. -- 69.66.209.3 ( talk) 22:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Dugongs don't have a single horn in the middle of their foreheads; narwhals do. 76.91.0.141 ( talk) 23:43, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Just completed digging up, checking, submitting "additional citations" requested by editors in banner top of article—and final last move fixed 2 sets defective links (my errors). Only question: started trying to get citations on my own, but discovered them in earlier versions, so why guys who put up request banner in first place didn't just get those copied out and put in article? Sure it's work! But nothing I did they couldn't do. Anyway, I'm out of here. It's a better article than it was a month ago. I have other things to do. -- Sniperscout ( talk) 08:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Note to 76.91.0.141 (above): your narwhal is now included by mention in article. -- Sniperscout ( talk) 08:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Came back to article find link "Bible difficulties explained (Google eBook)" intending to click to read—saw new changes by "student input" with ref to Josephus. I have copy, looked at it, found ref. to materials gathered to make tabernacle—parallel with Ex 35:21-29 at Ant. 3:5:8–3:6:1 [3.99-103]. Where Ex says "tahash skins" Josephus says "sheepskins, some of them dyed of a blue color" and says "for of these materials did Moses build the tabernacle". He doesn't say "tachash" anywhere in account of building tabernacle—only says "Tachas" as son of Nahor by Reuma his concubine Ant. 1:6:5 [1.153]. Only skins Josephus mentions in tabernacle are sheepskins. Sounds like Josephus "attempt to explicitly identify animal" source of tachash skins. At least one "historical source" seems made attempt. So got link from googlebooks for footnote, and did partial rewrite of "student input" with all due respect. I wish him well. -- Sniperscout ( talk) 04:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Tachash is not an animal in the Bible. I looked at the links to Exodus, Numbers and Ezekiel in the article, and those Bible links all say "badger". When I saw that I didn't need to read any farther. It's nonsense. Whoever wrote it obviously doesn't read the Bible, that's for sure! The article should be deleted. Former Baptist pastor, Senior Citizen Center. -- 184.97.61.143 ( talk) 21:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
1.I have read and consulted other translations over several decades. The link to the Bible in this article doesn't say "tachash". I meant that if the writer had read the texts he linked to the KJV Bible in the first sentence he would have seen that tachash isn't mentioned in them.
2.I read the link you provided to the earlier version of Tachash. You say it's "decidedly unencyclopedic". On the contrary, I found it to be as encyclopedic and chronological as Noah's ark, Kashrut, and Abomination (Bible). Your support of the current version of Tachash fairly invites rebuttal, point by point, from a worldly point of view—a scholarly, academic, futile in thinking and senseless point of view (Romans 1:22)—with suggestions for improving the article. Former Baptist Pastor, Senior Citizen Center 184.97.61.143 ( talk) 21:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
1.The banner asks for "additional citations for verification". Earlier versions of the article had them, but they were reverted. That's nonsense. Improvement —:
2.The first sentence says that Tachash is an animal referred to in the Bible, then gives links to the King James Version texts that don't have Tachash as an animal but have "badger" instead. That's nonsense. A reader not familiar with the Bible who hasn't read the whole article yet won't see this as proof but as a contradiction of the statement. Improvement —:
3.The current article states that the Talmud and Rashi's commentary describe the Tachash as "a kosher, one horned..."—but no citations or links are provided to support this claim. That's nonsense. Improvement —:
4.The current version says "Another hypothesis..."—no citation or link is given in this version to support this statement—whose hypothesis is it? where is it published? That's nonsense. Give the citation and source.
5."...similarity between tachash and the Arabic word tukhas, which means dugong..."—who says? citations needed. This is nonsense.
6.The Jewish Publication Society translation does NOT render tachash as dolphin or sea cow—it says "seal". This is nonsense! (and false)
7."...similar description in the Gemara."—the footnote links to a site without any identification of authorship or source, or evidence of any kind, of that site being a reliable source WP:RS. That's nonsense. (And no one has challenged this footnote link.) The online text link does not tell where in the Talmud is the "dispute regarding its identification", or the source of "one opinion" giving the clues, or whose multiple opinions say that the tachash is the same as the keresh. It doesn't say where is the text in the Gemara that says the keresh is a very large animal, that it is a kosher animal, and that it has a horn in the center of its forehead. Improvement —:
8."It is not explicitly stated if the tachash was a mammal or not." Nonsense. The article clearly says the animals variously identified as the tachash are all mammals—its the Bible itself (alone) that does not state explicitly if the tachash is a mammal or not. Improvement —:
9.Tahash in the English Versions. This is nonsense. Hewlett's argument does not apply to the skins used to make the tabernacle. The tabernacle was made and erected and consecrated before the Israelites were told what characteristics made an animal and its carcass unclean, and before they were forbidden to touch them. Some rabbis (citations have been given in earlier versions of the article) have argued that skins of an unclean animal were used, and that the tachash was a non-kosher animal. Hence, against Hewlett's argument, badger skins would not have been forbidden for the outer covering at the time the tabernacle was made.
10.According to Aryeh Kaplan's footnote to Exodus 25:5 in the online text Navigating the Bible II, several sources translated tachash as "blue". The Encyclopedia Judaica says that the tanna Judah thought they were skins dyed altinon, seemingly purple. The current version does not mention these sources. And that's nonsense. Wikipedia claims that all verifiable information should be included for an encyclopedic point of view to ensure a Neutral Point of View of the subject. These "blue and purple" interpretations were in earlier versions of the article and not included in the current version.
The article Tachash needs citations and a good rewrite. However, from my standpoint as a former pastoral counsellor, I see from the history of this article that it has not had a healthy effect on the editors and contributors who became involved. There has been obsession, error, rancor, bitter in-fighting, and edit-warring, as well as sockpuppetry and blockings of IP addresses and individuals. I have seen this before in my work. This is clear evidence that this article has an evil effect on people over and above what might be expected from its evident treatment of a minor subject, and far in excess of what would normally be expected from a Wikipedia article. For this reason I would urge that instead of improving the article, it should absolutely be deleted, expunged (how about destroyed), for the sake of readers and editors. If I'm right, a very strong reaction to the above critique will happen.
Former Baptist, Senior Citizen Center. 184.97.61.143 ( talk) 21:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Given this has only a one-line mention in Ark of the Covenant, and is only known of in relation to the Ark of the Covenant, should we not redirect to that article? One day if it is deemed worthy of a significant section there, we might consider splitting to a new article, but right now it seems rather incongruous to have a separate article.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 16:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I found the article page empty, except for a Redirect. I thought it could be made into an article.
I have tried to provide fresh material for the empty page "Tahash" which, at the time I first found it in Wikipedia by searching "Tachash", contained only a Redirect to "Tabernacle". After making a virtually new article, I became curious and clicked on to the Talk page here and read the entry above, and then accessed the Archives. I was surprised that essentially one form of the past material that was Tachash was the same odd and enormous material entry I found in my original online search for "Tachash skins", posted at http://www.thefullwiki/Tachash "Tachash – The Full Wiki".
After reading the Archives, I hope that what material I assembled here on the Article page, drawn from what I submitted in the previously-created article Badger skins, is an improvement. I wish you well. -- Encyclopedic researcher ( talk) 20:02, 21 September 2014 (UTC)