This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
==TIKTOKRULES==??
What is a scant tablespoon, as in this recipe: [1]. Is it just a level tablespoon or does it have a specific technical meaning? Richard W.M. Jones 12:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous; a flattened tablespoon can hardly hold 2ml of volume... Something seems wrong with this entire notion that a tablespoon could even remotely hope to actually hold a "tablespoon = 15ml" worth of liquid. Someone should test this. --Ninjagecko —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.243.6.65 ( talk • contribs)
I agree with the previous person - this article appears to be about what I in the UK would call a dessert spoon. A tablespoon in the UK is much bigger, as the above person notes. 78.149.147.198 ( talk) 23:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's not forget the Dessert spoon which, as I remember it to be, is somewhere between a teaspoon and a tablespoon. JohnClarknew ( talk) 21:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
JohnClarknew has made a very good point here - and has perhaps uncovered the problem with this page - at least as far as the UK tablespoon measure is concerned. I think that some people are not familiar with what exactly a UK tablespoon is and are making the incorrect assumption that a tablespoon is the type of spoon that you commonly see on a table, next to the knife and fork - (as it is in the US).
A tablespoon is a very large spoon that is never used in a place setting, it is sometimes used on the table as a serving spoon. The spoon that accompanies a knife and fork in the place setting is a desert spoon, it is in proportion with the fork. a teaspoon is a small spoon, the type used for adding sugar to tea most commonly.
Part of the confusion lies in the fact that in the US the term tablespoon has always applied to what in the uk would be recognised as a desertspoon. This fact used to be common knowledge amongst British cooks who would make allowances depending on the source of the recipe (for a US cookbook a desertspoon would be used - for a UK cookbook a tablespoon would be used) - with the increasing blurring between our cultures many conversion charts intended for sale in the US are now sold here in the UK with little attention to the different terminology for the given spoons.
I have just measured 3 spoons with water
A Teaspoon = 5ml
A Desert spoon = 3 teaspoons = 15ml
A Tablespoon = 7 teaspoons = 35ml 81.107.147.216 ( talk) 13:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.147.216 ( talk) 13:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
When used for solids, such as granulated sugar, it should be measured to the flattened level of the spoon—level spoonful versus a heaping spoonful or heaped tablespoon, which is as much as can be held in the spoon, or a rounded spoonful, which is twice a level spoonful, the solids above the level roughly mirroring those in the bowl.
Could someone, please, clarify in the article whether the actual manufacturing of tablespoons is regulated to the said measurements? Or is the word "tablespoon" simply borrowed to use as a measurement unit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.129.241 ( talk) 02:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Even though the article purports to answer the question, I'm not seeing any references to back it up. Zyxwv99 ( talk) 03:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Dbfirs and 81.96.151.42: Please stop edit warring over this. Per WP:BRD, let's leave the original text, sourced to OED, while we hash this out.
There are obviously regional variations involved here. In the US midwest, where I live now, a tablespoon is used for eating, not serving. The "dessert spoon" is unknown. But the most common use of "tablespoon" is as a unit of measure, not an item of cutlery.
What we could really use is a source that discusses the regional variations, but I can't find one. I did find one source that says it's used for eating: [2] I suspect that's common in the US, while in the UK it's a serving utensil, but we need a source. Let's all look for one. Meanwhile, let's not remove the OED source. We don't do that even if we disagree with the source. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 02:27, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
My copy of Spoons has arrived. It says the tablespoon changed from an eating to a serving utensil in the late nineteenth century with the invention of the soup spoon. But this would only cover UK usage. Still need a source, but I'm pretty sure "tablespoon" retains its original meaning, as an eating utensil, in the US. I will summarize Spoons and add material in the next couple days. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 18:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I have put in what could glean from my copy of Moore, which unfortunately is the earlier 1650-1930 version. It doesn't really help much with the question of whether or where the tablespoon is used for eating instead of serving. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 04:30, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Do we really need to convert from tablespoons to standard units and then from there to US ounces? That seems completely unnecessary and confusing to me. This is already covered in the "Traditional definitions" section. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 01:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I've found that U.S. law (21CFR101.9(b)(5)(viii)) defines the tablespoon as 15 mL.
Excerpt:
For nutrition labeling purposes, a teaspoon means 5 milliliters (mL), a tablespoon means 15 mL, a cup means 240 mL, 1 fl oz means 30 mL, and 1 oz in weight means 28 g.
Should/could this be added into the article? ~ Storpilot
21CFR101.9(b)(5)(viii) applies to nutrition labeling and does not imply a formal definition. In fact it's obviously not a formal definition, because it also defines the cup as 240 ml. Appendix C of NIST Handbook 44 calls the tablespoon an "imprecise" measurement, and says it's equal to 1/2 fluid ounce exactly, or 15 ml (with no "exactly" qualifier). The NIST Guide for the International System of Units defines the tablespoon as 1.478676 ml. I can find no formal definition. My conclusion is that there is no formal definition. I'm going to remove the part about 15 ml being the official definition in the US. Rees11 ( talk) 00:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC).
All of your Chinese made measuring teaspoons are made to hold 15 mL. All of this NIST gibberish about it being 14.blah blah blah millilitres is pure fluff. What good is a definition if it is ignored? The definition of the tablespoon needs to be what its usage is and that is 15 mL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ametrica ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I am Australian, and have never seen a 20 mL tablespoon... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.77.111 ( talk) 01:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
There's no such thing as a 20 ml tablespoon, I suspect. But Australian authorities have defined "tablespoon" to be 20 ml. I have many documents (cookbooks, for example) which all agree on this volume. Take a look at [3] for one example. If somebody can find an official reference, it should be added to the article. Groogle ( talk) 00:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Is there any history behind the usage of a 20ml tablespoon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.75.122 ( talk) 16:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
The tablespoon cited as 20ml is not confirmed by the referenced link.
If there is a reference for it (I suspect there is not) this should be corrected or the Australian tablespoon should be removed. Ghosttess18 ( talk) 23:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Imperial units are basically obsolete and never used in the UK so I've removed the section on the traditional tablespoon measurement. DunKhan ( talk) 10:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, tablespoons are (should be) obsolete, but that is no reason to remove the text, though I agree it could be improved on. Many UK cookbooks use these units, so the correct approach would be to document the situation. Groogle ( talk) 00:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The issue of whether a measure is obsolete or not shouldn't influence its being included on this page - the tablespoon measure has been used in cookbooks as a measure until very recently and recipes dont become obsolete - anybody consulting wikipedia to help them use an old recipe, perhaps even a victorian recipe, is not helped by witholding information that though obsolete, still exists. 81.107.147.216 ( talk) 12:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
==TIKTOKRULES==??
What is a scant tablespoon, as in this recipe: [1]. Is it just a level tablespoon or does it have a specific technical meaning? Richard W.M. Jones 12:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous; a flattened tablespoon can hardly hold 2ml of volume... Something seems wrong with this entire notion that a tablespoon could even remotely hope to actually hold a "tablespoon = 15ml" worth of liquid. Someone should test this. --Ninjagecko —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.243.6.65 ( talk • contribs)
I agree with the previous person - this article appears to be about what I in the UK would call a dessert spoon. A tablespoon in the UK is much bigger, as the above person notes. 78.149.147.198 ( talk) 23:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's not forget the Dessert spoon which, as I remember it to be, is somewhere between a teaspoon and a tablespoon. JohnClarknew ( talk) 21:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
JohnClarknew has made a very good point here - and has perhaps uncovered the problem with this page - at least as far as the UK tablespoon measure is concerned. I think that some people are not familiar with what exactly a UK tablespoon is and are making the incorrect assumption that a tablespoon is the type of spoon that you commonly see on a table, next to the knife and fork - (as it is in the US).
A tablespoon is a very large spoon that is never used in a place setting, it is sometimes used on the table as a serving spoon. The spoon that accompanies a knife and fork in the place setting is a desert spoon, it is in proportion with the fork. a teaspoon is a small spoon, the type used for adding sugar to tea most commonly.
Part of the confusion lies in the fact that in the US the term tablespoon has always applied to what in the uk would be recognised as a desertspoon. This fact used to be common knowledge amongst British cooks who would make allowances depending on the source of the recipe (for a US cookbook a desertspoon would be used - for a UK cookbook a tablespoon would be used) - with the increasing blurring between our cultures many conversion charts intended for sale in the US are now sold here in the UK with little attention to the different terminology for the given spoons.
I have just measured 3 spoons with water
A Teaspoon = 5ml
A Desert spoon = 3 teaspoons = 15ml
A Tablespoon = 7 teaspoons = 35ml 81.107.147.216 ( talk) 13:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.147.216 ( talk) 13:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
When used for solids, such as granulated sugar, it should be measured to the flattened level of the spoon—level spoonful versus a heaping spoonful or heaped tablespoon, which is as much as can be held in the spoon, or a rounded spoonful, which is twice a level spoonful, the solids above the level roughly mirroring those in the bowl.
Could someone, please, clarify in the article whether the actual manufacturing of tablespoons is regulated to the said measurements? Or is the word "tablespoon" simply borrowed to use as a measurement unit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.129.241 ( talk) 02:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Even though the article purports to answer the question, I'm not seeing any references to back it up. Zyxwv99 ( talk) 03:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Dbfirs and 81.96.151.42: Please stop edit warring over this. Per WP:BRD, let's leave the original text, sourced to OED, while we hash this out.
There are obviously regional variations involved here. In the US midwest, where I live now, a tablespoon is used for eating, not serving. The "dessert spoon" is unknown. But the most common use of "tablespoon" is as a unit of measure, not an item of cutlery.
What we could really use is a source that discusses the regional variations, but I can't find one. I did find one source that says it's used for eating: [2] I suspect that's common in the US, while in the UK it's a serving utensil, but we need a source. Let's all look for one. Meanwhile, let's not remove the OED source. We don't do that even if we disagree with the source. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 02:27, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
My copy of Spoons has arrived. It says the tablespoon changed from an eating to a serving utensil in the late nineteenth century with the invention of the soup spoon. But this would only cover UK usage. Still need a source, but I'm pretty sure "tablespoon" retains its original meaning, as an eating utensil, in the US. I will summarize Spoons and add material in the next couple days. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 18:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I have put in what could glean from my copy of Moore, which unfortunately is the earlier 1650-1930 version. It doesn't really help much with the question of whether or where the tablespoon is used for eating instead of serving. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 04:30, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Do we really need to convert from tablespoons to standard units and then from there to US ounces? That seems completely unnecessary and confusing to me. This is already covered in the "Traditional definitions" section. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 01:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I've found that U.S. law (21CFR101.9(b)(5)(viii)) defines the tablespoon as 15 mL.
Excerpt:
For nutrition labeling purposes, a teaspoon means 5 milliliters (mL), a tablespoon means 15 mL, a cup means 240 mL, 1 fl oz means 30 mL, and 1 oz in weight means 28 g.
Should/could this be added into the article? ~ Storpilot
21CFR101.9(b)(5)(viii) applies to nutrition labeling and does not imply a formal definition. In fact it's obviously not a formal definition, because it also defines the cup as 240 ml. Appendix C of NIST Handbook 44 calls the tablespoon an "imprecise" measurement, and says it's equal to 1/2 fluid ounce exactly, or 15 ml (with no "exactly" qualifier). The NIST Guide for the International System of Units defines the tablespoon as 1.478676 ml. I can find no formal definition. My conclusion is that there is no formal definition. I'm going to remove the part about 15 ml being the official definition in the US. Rees11 ( talk) 00:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC).
All of your Chinese made measuring teaspoons are made to hold 15 mL. All of this NIST gibberish about it being 14.blah blah blah millilitres is pure fluff. What good is a definition if it is ignored? The definition of the tablespoon needs to be what its usage is and that is 15 mL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ametrica ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I am Australian, and have never seen a 20 mL tablespoon... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.77.111 ( talk) 01:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
There's no such thing as a 20 ml tablespoon, I suspect. But Australian authorities have defined "tablespoon" to be 20 ml. I have many documents (cookbooks, for example) which all agree on this volume. Take a look at [3] for one example. If somebody can find an official reference, it should be added to the article. Groogle ( talk) 00:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Is there any history behind the usage of a 20ml tablespoon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.75.122 ( talk) 16:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
The tablespoon cited as 20ml is not confirmed by the referenced link.
If there is a reference for it (I suspect there is not) this should be corrected or the Australian tablespoon should be removed. Ghosttess18 ( talk) 23:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Imperial units are basically obsolete and never used in the UK so I've removed the section on the traditional tablespoon measurement. DunKhan ( talk) 10:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, tablespoons are (should be) obsolete, but that is no reason to remove the text, though I agree it could be improved on. Many UK cookbooks use these units, so the correct approach would be to document the situation. Groogle ( talk) 00:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The issue of whether a measure is obsolete or not shouldn't influence its being included on this page - the tablespoon measure has been used in cookbooks as a measure until very recently and recipes dont become obsolete - anybody consulting wikipedia to help them use an old recipe, perhaps even a victorian recipe, is not helped by witholding information that though obsolete, still exists. 81.107.147.216 ( talk) 12:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC)