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"We teach our students that by concentration through meditation they can create an impenetrable field of energy between the ground and their bodies.The greater the field of energy, the higher the meditating man can rise. It is simple QED."
This sentence was recently added to the article. Surely if we are interested in giving the Maharishi's thoughts on Yogic Flying we could find more reliable sources for describing them than a book that is interested in debunking his techniques...I think if we are interested in giving the Maharish's views a source like "the complete book of Yogic Flying" written by the president of Maharishi University of Management would be a better source to site which extensively describes the maharishi's thoughts on Yogic Flying.-- Uncreated ( talk) 22:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
'You see my friends,' said the guru, 'science is only beginning to catch up with the knowledge that we Indian mystics have had through the ages.Once you have words for what we know and teach, then you will accept the truth of what we say.'
The subject of this article is the TM-Sidhi program. Therefore, I have removed extensive material from the lead which is specifically about TM, not the TM-Sidhi program. -- BweeB ( talk) 11:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
And in this context, I feel the sentence "Skeptics have called TM or its associated theories and technologies a "pseudoscience"." needs modification to comply with the article subject matter. Perhaps "Skeptics have called TM-Sidhi theory and technology a pseudoscience." -- BweeB ( talk) 11:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that sentence is OK since TM-Sidhi is on e of the assorted theories and technologies. I was wondering about the other content added since it references research on the TM technique...a very different body of research than the ME research, so its in the wrong article.( olive ( talk) 14:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC))
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I checked one of the listed sources, Sibinga & Kemper, and found that it does not mention TM-Sidhi. The quote from the Horan article doesn't mention TM-Sidhi. What does Seeman et al., say about TM-Sidhi? More basically, why do we have a two-sentence section on TM research in an article on TM-Sdihi? Will Beback talk 21:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps, the next appropriate move would be to leave TG a message on his talk page rather than unilaterally delete RS content. ( olive ( talk) 20:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC))
The wording did not say TG was an expert . Expert was used as an adjective to describe a relationship to others. He may well be an expert but that's not what I was saying.( olive ( talk) 01:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC))
Sibinga talks extensively about TM research and its various effects, and ays this: "Some studies also suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability. (30)(31)(32)(33)". The first two citations are to studies conducted on practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs:
30. Cranson RW, Orme-Johnson DW, GackenbachJ, Dillbeck MC. Transcendental meditation and improved performance on intelligence-related measures: a longitudinal study. Personal Indiv Diff. 1991;12:1105 This two-year longitudinal study investigated the effect of participation in a special university curriculum, whose principal innovative feature is twice-daily practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi program, on performance on Cattell's Culture Fair Intelligence Test (CFIT) and Hick's reaction time. These measures are known to be correlated with general intelligence. One hundred college men and women were the subjects—45 from Maharishi International University (MIU) and 55 from the University of Northern Iowa (UNI). The experimental group (MIU) improved significantly on the CFIT (t=2.79, P<0.005); choice reaction time (t=9.10, P<0.0001); SD of choice reaction time (t=11.39, P<0.0001), and simple reaction time (t=2.11, P<0.025) over two years compared to the control group, which showed no improvement. Possible confounds of subject's age, education level, level of interest in meditation, father's education level, and father's annual income were controlled for using analysis of covariance and stepwise regression. The results replicate the findings of previous longitudinal studies on intelligence test scores at MIU, and indicate that participation in the MIU curriculum results in improvements in measures related to general intelligence.
31. Jedrczak A, Beresford M, Clements G. The TM-Sidhi program, pure consciousness, creativity and intelligence. J Creat Behav. 1985;19:270
Loizzo says this:
Consistent with current health psychology and behavioral neuroscience,4,33 natural contemplative practices aim at overriding the fight-flight response style that characterizes behavioral stress-reactivity, and at cultivating a disarming, love-growth response style that supports nurturance and creativity.40,49 Examples are practices such as optimal in- tegral process (Skt. anuttarayogatantra), kindling(Skt.candal ̄iTib.gtum-mo),TMSiddhi (stage 4–5), Ananda Marga, Sahaja yoga, Kun- dalini yoga (Patan ̃jali stages 7–8) and Qi-gong.... Research findings include fast beta or gamma frequencies in the EEG,21,76,97 increases in endorphins,98 dopamine,79 arginine vasopressin,99 melatonin,81 and DHEA,100 decreased cytokines,101 a paradoxical pattern of high CNS arousal and deep muscular relax- ation similar to REM sleep and sexual response,26,70,102,103 a “heart-brain prep” pattern of centrally shunted blood flow and slowed metabolism72,104–107 resembling that of hiber- nating, estivating, and diving mammals.108–111
He cites Glaser's study on DHEA:
100. Glaser, J.L. et al. 1992. Elevated serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels in practitioners of the transcendental-meditation-(TM)-and-TM- Sidhi programs. J. Behav. Med. 15: 327–341.
Serum dehydroepiandosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) levels were measured in 270 men and 153 women who were experienced practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi programs, mental techniques practiced twice daily, sitting quietly with the eyes closed. These were compared according to sex and 5-year age grouping to 799 male and 453 female nonmeditators. The mean DHEA-S levels in the TM group were higher in all 11 of the age groups measured in women and in 6 of 7 5-year age groups over 40 in men. There were no systematic differences in younger men. Simple regression using TM-group data revealed that this effect was independent of diet, body mass index, and exercise. The mean TM-group levels measured in all women and in the older men were generally comparable to those of nonmeditator groups 5 to 10 years younger. These findings suggest that some characteristics of TM practitioners are modifying the age-related deterioration in DHEA-S secretion by the adrenal cortex.
Seeman cites Werner: "The final longitudinal study, by Werner et al. (1986), reported three-year longitudinal data for 11 male practitioners of TM showing reductions in plasma thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), growth hor- mone (GH), and prolactin but no change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels."
Werner, O. R., Wallace, R. K., Charles, B., Janssen, G., Stryker, T., & Chalmers, R. A. (1986). Long-term endocrinologic changes in subjects practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program. Psy- chosomatic Medicine, 48, 59–66.
The Transcendental Meditation (TM) and a more advanced program, the TM-Sidhi program, have been reported to produce a number of acute and long-term metabolic and electrophysiologic changes. To investigate the possibility that the practice of these techniques may be associated with long-term endocrinologic changes, we prospectively evaluated 11 male subjects before and over a 3-year period after starting the TM-Sidhi program. A progressive decrease in serum TSH, growth hormone, and prolactin levels occurred over the 3 years while no consistent change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels was observed. These results suggest that the long-term practice of the TM and TM-Sidhi program may have effects on neuroendocrine function. Further studies using 24-hr monitoring with frequent blood sampling will, however, be needed to fully assess the significance of the simultaneous decline of the anterior pituitary hormones with maintenance of levels of hormones from peripheral endocrine glands.
Epel also references Glaser: "Several meditation studies have measured markers of positive health, such as anabolic hormones, and these may have relevance for cellular aging. As discussed above and reviewed elsewhere, several stress-reduction interventions have induced increased heart rate variability and increased anabolic hormones such as DHEA.136 Several uncontrolled studies of TM show healthier profiles of arousal, including greater levels of DHEA-S.120,137"
137. Glaser, J.L., J. Brind, J.H. Vogelman, et al. 1992. Elevated serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate lev- els in practitioners of the transcendental meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi programs. J. Behav. Med. 15: 327–341.
Hope that helps. There are additional research reviews that include these studies. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
This is a restatement of TimidGuy's posting above, with just the text from the sources. I don't see any mention of TM-Sidhi in Sibinga, Seeman, or Epel. Loizza seems to be saying that something called "TM Siddhi (stage 4–5)" has been studied in regard to replacing the "fight-flight response" with "love-growth response", though it's just one of several "natural contemplative practices" studies on the same topic. Is that a correct summary? If so I propose removing the other three citations which don't mention TM-Sidhi and replacing them with a summary of Loizza's comments on TM-Sidhi (stage 4-5). Will Beback talk 01:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Let's start with Sibinga ([32]). He cites two studies that involve TM-Sidhi performed by TM movement researchers. Also, we're quoting him so we should use quotation marks. This line would be better written as something like "A review by Sibinga and Kemper in Pediatrics in Review notes two studies by TM movement scholars, saying they "suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability" might be associated with the practice. Will Beback talk 08:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm not understanding what your point could possibly be. You realize that where a study is done is not significant? The meditation habits of Gackenbach? That's a red herring. What are you implying? We don't investigate the personal habits of researchers.( olive ( talk) 21:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC))
Sheesh. Her bio is online. [11]. I don't see anything about TM? Is this a COI accusation?( olive ( talk) 23:27, 16 July 2011 (UTC))
If this is about TM practitioners then it's in the wrong article. If it's about Samyama training then it's also in the wrong article. Will Beback talk 20:51, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Orme-Johnson and Granieri (1977) found support for a creativity–meditation connection in a study of 60 subjects undergoing advanced training in the TM-Sidhi program (launched in 1976). The criterion for course entry was previous experience of transcendental aware- ness, a state wherein the mind remains fully alert while content is unbounded, empty, and silent (Arenander, 2000). The course teaches samyama to elicit psychophy- siological integration through SP. Using the TTCT in pretest and posttest conditions, the researchers discovered significant increases in originality and fluency in visuo-spatial creativity. The average length of medita- tion practice was about 5.6 years. This study did not involve a control group. Instead, it filtered for familiarity with the tests and concluded that increases in creativity were not due to familiarity. Orme-Johnson, Clements, Haynes, and Badaoui (1977) further tested 22 TM meditators with sanyama training using the TTCT- Verbal Form A. Twelve subjects were classified as having some SP experience. All the creativity subscales (fluency, originality, flexibility, and novel uses) were sig- nificantly correlated with the number of SP experiences. Ball (1980) studied the effects of TM and TM Sidhis (SP) at Maharishi International University on verbal and figural creativity (TTCT) and auditory creativity (Sounds and Images). Although the tests performances were relatively stable, TM subjects showed greater ori- ginality in verbal scores and on the Sounds and Images test than control subjects in a developmental psychology class. At the time of this study, some TM subjects had perhaps practiced sanyama for 4 years. The significance of sanyama will be addressed later.
Is there a reason why James insists on adding TM technique content to the wrong article? If not, I'll remove the content. ( olive ( talk) 23:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC))
?What TimidGuy added. Definitely not the opinion of mainstream science. I have returned mainstream sciences opinion to the page.
Studies of practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs have found positive changes in hormones associated with stress. [1] [2] [3] Also, studies have found the practice may be associated with increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability. [4] [5]
Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 00:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
This is the lead of the TM Sidhi article, and citing the number of studies for the TM technique misguides the reader, but if that's what you both want, no worries, for now.( olive ( talk) 03:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC))
Will has repeatedly emphasized that the sources should explicitly be about the TM-Sidhi program. Ospina does assess quality of TM-Sidhi research, though it would be up to whoever adds Ospina to insure that the TM-Sidhi studies were assessed as low quality, since some TM studies were rated highly. The Cochrane reviews don't have anything to do with TM-Sidhi research. I don't think that any of the pseudoscience sources mention TM-Sidhi. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
The consensus above is that sources in this article should be explicitly about the TM-Sidhi program, the Maharishi Effect, or Yogic Flying. There are many sources that don't meet this criterion. That includes many of the pseudoscience sources, the Cochrane reviews, and the Ospina meta-analyses. (However, Ospina's quality assessment does explicitly include TM-Sidhi.) These sources should therefore be removed. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
There's a question about this material. Does anyone have access to the source to provide a quotation? Will Beback talk 11:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
It's important to distinguish between theory and methodology. These are scientific studies, published in peer-reviewed journals. The methodology is accepted as scientific. The journals that published these studies and the peer reviewers that examined them agreed that the data supposed the hypothesis. The main criticism of this research has been the theory that explains the findings. Again, Journal of Conflict Resolution is a top journal. There was a special editorial on this study, as well as an editorial by one of the peer reviewers. They made exactly this point: that the methodology was solid, the data appeared to support the hypothesis, but the theory was difficult to accept. The critique by Fales and Markovsky is largely Bayesian, which is a method for deciding a priori whether a scientific result is likely. Bayesian analysis is used sometimes, but among philosophers of science it doesn't have much respect. In part that's because it's basically setting aside the scientific method and saying, "We can use reason to decide whether a phenomenon is likely, apart from any experimentation." Regarding how to characterize those making objections, we should only be using published peer-reviewed critiques, not an editorial in the Dallas Observer or stuff in popular media by skeptics. By the way, the debate among scientists regarding the theory, and to a much lesser extent whether the data support the hypothesis, is typical. Many many studies undergo this back-and-forth. It's not exceptional. Consider, for example, the controversy surrounding the research on statins, or antidepressants. This is part of the scientific process. It's a dialog. "Called into question" may be misleading for that reason. A reader who doesn't understand this process will think that this situation is somehow exceptional. "Questioned" is appropriate. TimidGuy ( talk) 09:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Is this book published by a reliable publisher? The Crime Vaccine. -- Uncreated ( talk) 21:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
This is a pretty significant claim. Can't we find a better source than an anonymous website? The source of thought is an issue debated by philosophers and scientists for hundreds of years, so to simply state outright that the source is "Transcendental Consciousness" (TC) is a big leap. Perhaps we should attribute it. Will Beback talk 02:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
From Russel, Chapter 8, "The Fourth State of Consciousness" opening paragraph:
Throughout the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique one is wide awake. Even when one transcends the finest level of mental activity and arrives at the state of restful alertness one still remains consciousness. In this state of quiet all mental activity has died away. Consciousness has ceased to vibrate and there is no longer anything to be conscious of. The normal thinking activity of the mind has been transcended and for tjhis reason the state is know as transcendental consciousness.
Transcendental Consciousness is beyond thought, but is also the source of all possibility and therefore of all thought. TC is described as the source of thought, the field of all possibilities, and parallels in physics and maybe is the same as The Unified Field or the vacuum state- a field that seems to be empty but also gives rise to all of our created universe. The state is pure potentiality. So thought in TM Sidhi is purportedly projected from this source of thought, or TC. ( olive ( talk) 16:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC))
I have no problem with that. I prefer short and accurate and to the point than a lot of questionable content.( olive ( talk) 01:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC))
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All the randomized clinical trials of TM for the control of blood pressure published to date have important methodological weaknesses and are potentially biased by the affiliation of authors to the TM organization.
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All 4 positive trials recruited subjects from among people favourably predisposed towards TM, and used passive control procedures …The association observed between positive outcome, subject selection procedure and control procedure suggests that the large positive effects reported in 4 trials result from an expectation effect. The claim that TM has a specific and cumulative effect on cognitive function is not supported by the evidence from randomized controlled trials.
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Are the assertions in the sentence not supported by the sources? Will Beback talk 00:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education. It is difficult to determine definitive effects of meditation practices in healthcare as the quality of research has design limitations and a lack of methodological rigor. Part of this difficulty is because studies have the potential for bias due to the connection of researchers to the TM organization, and enrollment of subjects with a favorable opinion of TM.
The developing consensus of uninvolved editors at WP:NPOVN#Golden Domes seems to be that TM-Sidhi is a fringe topic, per WP:FRINGE. If anyone has a view on this matter they should comment there. Will Beback talk 04:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I manually archived this talk page, then rolled it back to let the bot handle it. Please feel free to redo or undo as needed... Dreadstar ☥ 08:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
An IP has put this in the article several times:
In 2002, The Maharishi University of Management (M.U.M.) Press published The Complete Book of Yogic Flying by Craig Pearson. The 600-page book is profusely illustrated with full-color photographs of yogic flyers. However, the choice of title is unfortunate because the book contains pictures only of men practicing the flying sutra. There are no photographs of female flyers, even though women were the first to be successful in yogic flying, when the flying sutra was initially given out by Maharishi. According to Craig Pearson, there are no photos of female flyers in the book because Maharishi gave specific instructions that photographs were not to be taken of women practicing the flying sutra, only of men. This paragraph (written by a woman) has been deleted twice, probably by a male TM censor
I left a note on her talk page explaining why it violates Wikipedia's policy of no original research. TimidGuy ( talk) 09:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
An editor claiming to be Huw Dixon removed this:
Huw Dixon, Professor of Economics at York University, says: "I have been following research on the Maharishi Effect over the past 20 years. Its conclusions are so strong that it demands action from those responsible for government policy." [1]
The information is well sourced. I'd say leave it out for now, if that's his wish. I'm not sure what policy would bear on this. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:09, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The lead refers extensively to research on the TM technique. Since this article is not about TM, and the research is not on the TM-Sidhi program, I feel it could be removed from the lead. In addition, all these points appear in several articles on TM and TM reesearch, with almost exactly the same text, so perhaps is redundant here. I welcome other editors' feedback before making any changes to the text.
Here is the text I am referring to:
Skeptics have called TM or its associated theories and technologies a " pseudoscience". [2] [3] [4] Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education. [5] [6] [7] It is difficult to determine definitive effects of meditation practices in healthcare as the quality of research has design limitations and a lack of methodological rigor. [5] [8] [9] Part of this difficulty is because studies have the potential for bias due to the connection of researchers to the TM organization, and enrollment of subjects with a favorable opinion of TM. [10] [11] failed verification
The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety
A few studies of overall poor methodological quality were available for each comparison in the meta-analyses, most of which reported nonsignificant results. TM had no advantage over health education to improve measures of systolic blood pressure and diastolic blood pressure, body weight, heart rate, stress, anger, self-efficacy, cholesterol, dietary intake, and level of physical activity in hypertensive patients
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As a result of the limited number of included studies, the small sample sizes and the high risk of bias, we are unable to draw any conclusions regarding the effectiveness of meditation therapy for ADHD.
Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.
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As a result of the limited number of included studies, the small sample sizes and the high risk of bias
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All the randomized clinical trials of TM for the control of blood pressure published to date have important methodological weaknesses and are potentially biased by the affiliation of authors to the TM organization.
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All 4 positive trials recruited subjects from among people favourably predisposed towards TM, and used passive control procedures …The association observed between positive outcome, subject selection procedure and control procedure suggests that the large positive effects reported in 4 trials result from an expectation effect. The claim that TM has a specific and cumulative effect on cognitive function is not supported by the evidence from randomized controlled trials.
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I'd suggest a sentence by sentence analysis. I agree this entire paragraph is inaccurate and needs to be fixed.( olive ( talk) 15:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC))
I wouldn't move it until we have determined that it does or doesn't belong in the article. We have a copy here to refer to.( olive ( talk) 14:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC))
:::::Yes, I think that is a good idea. Should we move the content to the talk page while it s being examined or would you rather leave it for the moment?--
Luke Warmwater101 (
talk) 23:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC) Sorry that was a mistake, did not mean to post, Olive has already responded. --
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The following sentence should be deleted because none of the sources examines studies on subjects practicing the TM-Sidhi program: "Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education." Neither of the Cochrane reviews by Krisanaprakornkit includes studies on the TM-Sidhi program. And none of the meta-analyses by Ospina includes studies in which the subjects practiced the TM-Sidhi program.
The following sentence gives three citations, but two of the three are unrelated to the TM-Sidhi program: "It is difficult to determine definitive effects of meditation practices in healthcare as the quality of research has design limitations and a lack of methodological rigor." Neither the 2003 nor 2004 review by Canter and Ernst look at any studies that included subjects on the TM-Sidhi program. The examination of the quality of 230 studies on TM and the TM-Sidhii program by Ospina does include a handful (fewer than 10) of studies in which the subjects were practicing the TM-Sidhi program. However, the text of the article doesn't mention the results of the quality assessment of these studies on the TM-Sidhi program. One would need to look at the relevant appendix to see how these particular studies rated.
The following sentence should be deleted because, as noted above, the reviews by Canter and Ernst do not include studies in which the subjects were practicing the TM-Sidhi program: "Part of this difficulty is because studies have the potential for bias due to the connection of researchers to the TM organization, and enrollment of subjects with a favorable opinion of TM."
Regarding the quality of the research on the physiological effects of the TM-Sidhi program, I think that it's likely we'll find that Ospina's general conclusion applies: "Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence." Both the lead and the body of the article should have some statement to this effect. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:53, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I propose that the Maharishi Effect section be moved into its own article (leaving behind a summary) because: 1) At present the Maharishi Effect section dominates this article and creates undue weight/POV. 2) WP:SummaryStyle says: "A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own. The original article should contain a section with a summary of the subtopic's article as well as a link to it." 3) The Maharishi Effect is often defined as the claimed effect created by the practice of Transcendental Mediation, not the TM-Sidhi program as shown below:
Comments? Suggestions? Discussion?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:14, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Here is my initial research, I checked every source except for the scientific studies which I did not locate in such a short time. but, even with an incomplete list, a lot of these sources are about the Sidhis, not just TM.
Here they are
Their mission started 13 years ago at the Maharishi International University (MIU) in Fairfield, Iowa, when MIU researchers observed a sharp drop in crime, accidents and sickness in four nearby cities. They concluded that the drop was caused by a sort of sympathetic vibration emitted from the maharishi's disciples at MIU meditating together.
Maharishi introduced the TM-Sidhi program, including Yogic Flying, in 1976. Group practice of this program was observed to be particularly beneficial. On the basis of analogies to physical systems, scientists estimated that the coherence generated by group practice of the TM-Sidhi program should be proportional to the square of the number of participants. Taking into account the “1%” finding, it was predicted that a group with size equal to the square root of 1% of a population would have a measurable influence on the quality of life of that population. For example, a group of 200 practicing the TM-Sidhi program together in a city of four million (100x200x200) would be sufficient to produce a measurable influence on the whole city; a group of 1600 in the U.S. would influence 256 million (100x1600x1600) people, the whole population of the U.S.; and a group of 7000 would influence 4.9 billion (100x7000x7000) people, the population of the world at that time.
P 29 Likewise, when only the square root of one percent f the population practice Transcendental Meditation , the TM-Sidhi Programme and Yogic Flying together, the Extended Maharishi Effect is observed
(This was not about ME but the sentence is correctly quoted and can be considered ME by inference). On 9 January 2008, having heard from twenty-seven Rajas that many times the required number of Yogic Flyers have been trained to create perpetual Invincibility for the whole world; and having also heard the news as documented in the world press about the irrevocable transformation in world consciousness—greater harmony, positivity, and progress in all areas of life—His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi expressed the following wish:
Not specifically about TM or TM Sidhi: Question: Coherence and Invincibility Dr Hagelin: ‘A question has come in on the subject of defence that says: How will knowledge of the Constitution of the Universe in the life of the people make the knowledge of defence complete and make the nation invincible?’ Maharishi: ‘You have that example of the Meissner Effect: if the coherence is strong inside, then negative things do not enter into it. It is a proven reality. If the light is there, darkness has no way to enter the area. If the coherence is there, if the positivity is there, then negativity cannot enter it. It is the Meissner Effect. ‘That is why we want to have a very strong, coherent invincibility feature in our international world. Then negative things will not germinate from within the world and will not come from outside the world. Otherwise, inner poison sprouts and from outside all kinds of poison come in. The whole thing is very obvious.’
Dr Hagelin explained that the number of Yogic Flyers required to produce this coherent effect for the United States is 1730. However, he said, the initial group of 1200 experts is more than enough to create a calming, stabilising effect in national consciousness.
The square root of 1% effect is said to be produced through “group dynamics of consciousness.” It is proposed that a minimum “critical mass” of coherently interacting people is required before this amplification effect can be reliably observed. In a community of 100, both 1% and the square root of 1% would equal one person. Clearly, this would not even constitute a group! None of the over twenty square root of 1% studies accepted for publication inScientific Research on the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program, vol. 4, was on a population smaller than a million because it was decided that small groups of less than approximately 100 may not reliably produce such amplification effects.
Based on the above I feel that there is enough sidhi-related content to keep the section here, unless others feel differently. Opinions?-- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 04:52, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
There's a lot of content on the ME in this article enough that is might be reasonable to split it off into its own article while leaving a summary here.( olive ( talk) 19:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC))
If we keep ME in this article, I think it should be greatly reduced. Some of the material is poorly sourced, including claims from self-published sources (press releases) that violate WP:RS. I guess my preference would be to greatly condense the ME material and keep it here, but wouldn't object if it were split. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:21, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
I noticed one of my recent edits in the History section was reversed [27]. What I intended to do was to summarize, and did not delete nor intend to delete. As it stands, this one case takes up 25% of the entire section, dominating it. It also includes a drawn out quote from a case, which I believe is disallowed as per WP:BLPPRIMARY (Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person). The report as written in my opinion violates WP: WEIGHT. I am trying to add more historical facts to the history section, but I think the case could be summarized and still be fairly represented. Any input on this issue? -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 18:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I have started a thread at the TM project page as from time to time some editors have expressed concerns about the size of the topic area. If this concerns you, please join this discussion. Thanks.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 23:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of TM-Sidhi program's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Dawson":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
The practice section has a reference sentence that refers to a book by Lola Williamson. The sentence says that practitioners read for 10 minute an English translation of the Rig Veda. The section then quotes from Williamson's book further. But after that, there is an unreferenced sentence stating Since that time, practitioners of the TM-Sidhi Program have been instructed to listen to portions of the Ninth and Tenth Mandalas of the Rig Veda recited by Vedic pandits in Sanskrit on audiotape at the end of each program (twice a day). This is not confirmed by Williamson. I have not found any other source that discusses audiotapes. A citation needed tag was added in May. Can anyone try and find a reference for it? If no one can, I suggest that this be removed, especially since Williamson already described readings in her book. -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 00:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Since that time, practitioners of the TM-Sidhi Program have been instructed to listen to portions of the Ninth and Tenth Mandalas of the Rig Veda recited by Vedic pandits in Sanskrit on audiotape at the end of each program (twice a day). citation needed
I am posting a link to this discussion by the edit.-- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 19:56, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
"We teach our students that by concentration through meditation they can create an impenetrable field of energy between the ground and their bodies.The greater the field of energy, the higher the meditating man can rise. It is simple QED."
This sentence was recently added to the article. Surely if we are interested in giving the Maharishi's thoughts on Yogic Flying we could find more reliable sources for describing them than a book that is interested in debunking his techniques...I think if we are interested in giving the Maharish's views a source like "the complete book of Yogic Flying" written by the president of Maharishi University of Management would be a better source to site which extensively describes the maharishi's thoughts on Yogic Flying.-- Uncreated ( talk) 22:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
'You see my friends,' said the guru, 'science is only beginning to catch up with the knowledge that we Indian mystics have had through the ages.Once you have words for what we know and teach, then you will accept the truth of what we say.'
The subject of this article is the TM-Sidhi program. Therefore, I have removed extensive material from the lead which is specifically about TM, not the TM-Sidhi program. -- BweeB ( talk) 11:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
And in this context, I feel the sentence "Skeptics have called TM or its associated theories and technologies a "pseudoscience"." needs modification to comply with the article subject matter. Perhaps "Skeptics have called TM-Sidhi theory and technology a pseudoscience." -- BweeB ( talk) 11:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that sentence is OK since TM-Sidhi is on e of the assorted theories and technologies. I was wondering about the other content added since it references research on the TM technique...a very different body of research than the ME research, so its in the wrong article.( olive ( talk) 14:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC))
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I checked one of the listed sources, Sibinga & Kemper, and found that it does not mention TM-Sidhi. The quote from the Horan article doesn't mention TM-Sidhi. What does Seeman et al., say about TM-Sidhi? More basically, why do we have a two-sentence section on TM research in an article on TM-Sdihi? Will Beback talk 21:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps, the next appropriate move would be to leave TG a message on his talk page rather than unilaterally delete RS content. ( olive ( talk) 20:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC))
The wording did not say TG was an expert . Expert was used as an adjective to describe a relationship to others. He may well be an expert but that's not what I was saying.( olive ( talk) 01:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC))
Sibinga talks extensively about TM research and its various effects, and ays this: "Some studies also suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability. (30)(31)(32)(33)". The first two citations are to studies conducted on practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs:
30. Cranson RW, Orme-Johnson DW, GackenbachJ, Dillbeck MC. Transcendental meditation and improved performance on intelligence-related measures: a longitudinal study. Personal Indiv Diff. 1991;12:1105 This two-year longitudinal study investigated the effect of participation in a special university curriculum, whose principal innovative feature is twice-daily practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi program, on performance on Cattell's Culture Fair Intelligence Test (CFIT) and Hick's reaction time. These measures are known to be correlated with general intelligence. One hundred college men and women were the subjects—45 from Maharishi International University (MIU) and 55 from the University of Northern Iowa (UNI). The experimental group (MIU) improved significantly on the CFIT (t=2.79, P<0.005); choice reaction time (t=9.10, P<0.0001); SD of choice reaction time (t=11.39, P<0.0001), and simple reaction time (t=2.11, P<0.025) over two years compared to the control group, which showed no improvement. Possible confounds of subject's age, education level, level of interest in meditation, father's education level, and father's annual income were controlled for using analysis of covariance and stepwise regression. The results replicate the findings of previous longitudinal studies on intelligence test scores at MIU, and indicate that participation in the MIU curriculum results in improvements in measures related to general intelligence.
31. Jedrczak A, Beresford M, Clements G. The TM-Sidhi program, pure consciousness, creativity and intelligence. J Creat Behav. 1985;19:270
Loizzo says this:
Consistent with current health psychology and behavioral neuroscience,4,33 natural contemplative practices aim at overriding the fight-flight response style that characterizes behavioral stress-reactivity, and at cultivating a disarming, love-growth response style that supports nurturance and creativity.40,49 Examples are practices such as optimal in- tegral process (Skt. anuttarayogatantra), kindling(Skt.candal ̄iTib.gtum-mo),TMSiddhi (stage 4–5), Ananda Marga, Sahaja yoga, Kun- dalini yoga (Patan ̃jali stages 7–8) and Qi-gong.... Research findings include fast beta or gamma frequencies in the EEG,21,76,97 increases in endorphins,98 dopamine,79 arginine vasopressin,99 melatonin,81 and DHEA,100 decreased cytokines,101 a paradoxical pattern of high CNS arousal and deep muscular relax- ation similar to REM sleep and sexual response,26,70,102,103 a “heart-brain prep” pattern of centrally shunted blood flow and slowed metabolism72,104–107 resembling that of hiber- nating, estivating, and diving mammals.108–111
He cites Glaser's study on DHEA:
100. Glaser, J.L. et al. 1992. Elevated serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels in practitioners of the transcendental-meditation-(TM)-and-TM- Sidhi programs. J. Behav. Med. 15: 327–341.
Serum dehydroepiandosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) levels were measured in 270 men and 153 women who were experienced practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi programs, mental techniques practiced twice daily, sitting quietly with the eyes closed. These were compared according to sex and 5-year age grouping to 799 male and 453 female nonmeditators. The mean DHEA-S levels in the TM group were higher in all 11 of the age groups measured in women and in 6 of 7 5-year age groups over 40 in men. There were no systematic differences in younger men. Simple regression using TM-group data revealed that this effect was independent of diet, body mass index, and exercise. The mean TM-group levels measured in all women and in the older men were generally comparable to those of nonmeditator groups 5 to 10 years younger. These findings suggest that some characteristics of TM practitioners are modifying the age-related deterioration in DHEA-S secretion by the adrenal cortex.
Seeman cites Werner: "The final longitudinal study, by Werner et al. (1986), reported three-year longitudinal data for 11 male practitioners of TM showing reductions in plasma thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), growth hor- mone (GH), and prolactin but no change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels."
Werner, O. R., Wallace, R. K., Charles, B., Janssen, G., Stryker, T., & Chalmers, R. A. (1986). Long-term endocrinologic changes in subjects practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program. Psy- chosomatic Medicine, 48, 59–66.
The Transcendental Meditation (TM) and a more advanced program, the TM-Sidhi program, have been reported to produce a number of acute and long-term metabolic and electrophysiologic changes. To investigate the possibility that the practice of these techniques may be associated with long-term endocrinologic changes, we prospectively evaluated 11 male subjects before and over a 3-year period after starting the TM-Sidhi program. A progressive decrease in serum TSH, growth hormone, and prolactin levels occurred over the 3 years while no consistent change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels was observed. These results suggest that the long-term practice of the TM and TM-Sidhi program may have effects on neuroendocrine function. Further studies using 24-hr monitoring with frequent blood sampling will, however, be needed to fully assess the significance of the simultaneous decline of the anterior pituitary hormones with maintenance of levels of hormones from peripheral endocrine glands.
Epel also references Glaser: "Several meditation studies have measured markers of positive health, such as anabolic hormones, and these may have relevance for cellular aging. As discussed above and reviewed elsewhere, several stress-reduction interventions have induced increased heart rate variability and increased anabolic hormones such as DHEA.136 Several uncontrolled studies of TM show healthier profiles of arousal, including greater levels of DHEA-S.120,137"
137. Glaser, J.L., J. Brind, J.H. Vogelman, et al. 1992. Elevated serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate lev- els in practitioners of the transcendental meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi programs. J. Behav. Med. 15: 327–341.
Hope that helps. There are additional research reviews that include these studies. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
This is a restatement of TimidGuy's posting above, with just the text from the sources. I don't see any mention of TM-Sidhi in Sibinga, Seeman, or Epel. Loizza seems to be saying that something called "TM Siddhi (stage 4–5)" has been studied in regard to replacing the "fight-flight response" with "love-growth response", though it's just one of several "natural contemplative practices" studies on the same topic. Is that a correct summary? If so I propose removing the other three citations which don't mention TM-Sidhi and replacing them with a summary of Loizza's comments on TM-Sidhi (stage 4-5). Will Beback talk 01:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Let's start with Sibinga ([32]). He cites two studies that involve TM-Sidhi performed by TM movement researchers. Also, we're quoting him so we should use quotation marks. This line would be better written as something like "A review by Sibinga and Kemper in Pediatrics in Review notes two studies by TM movement scholars, saying they "suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability" might be associated with the practice. Will Beback talk 08:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm not understanding what your point could possibly be. You realize that where a study is done is not significant? The meditation habits of Gackenbach? That's a red herring. What are you implying? We don't investigate the personal habits of researchers.( olive ( talk) 21:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC))
Sheesh. Her bio is online. [11]. I don't see anything about TM? Is this a COI accusation?( olive ( talk) 23:27, 16 July 2011 (UTC))
If this is about TM practitioners then it's in the wrong article. If it's about Samyama training then it's also in the wrong article. Will Beback talk 20:51, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Orme-Johnson and Granieri (1977) found support for a creativity–meditation connection in a study of 60 subjects undergoing advanced training in the TM-Sidhi program (launched in 1976). The criterion for course entry was previous experience of transcendental aware- ness, a state wherein the mind remains fully alert while content is unbounded, empty, and silent (Arenander, 2000). The course teaches samyama to elicit psychophy- siological integration through SP. Using the TTCT in pretest and posttest conditions, the researchers discovered significant increases in originality and fluency in visuo-spatial creativity. The average length of medita- tion practice was about 5.6 years. This study did not involve a control group. Instead, it filtered for familiarity with the tests and concluded that increases in creativity were not due to familiarity. Orme-Johnson, Clements, Haynes, and Badaoui (1977) further tested 22 TM meditators with sanyama training using the TTCT- Verbal Form A. Twelve subjects were classified as having some SP experience. All the creativity subscales (fluency, originality, flexibility, and novel uses) were sig- nificantly correlated with the number of SP experiences. Ball (1980) studied the effects of TM and TM Sidhis (SP) at Maharishi International University on verbal and figural creativity (TTCT) and auditory creativity (Sounds and Images). Although the tests performances were relatively stable, TM subjects showed greater ori- ginality in verbal scores and on the Sounds and Images test than control subjects in a developmental psychology class. At the time of this study, some TM subjects had perhaps practiced sanyama for 4 years. The significance of sanyama will be addressed later.
Is there a reason why James insists on adding TM technique content to the wrong article? If not, I'll remove the content. ( olive ( talk) 23:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC))
?What TimidGuy added. Definitely not the opinion of mainstream science. I have returned mainstream sciences opinion to the page.
Studies of practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs have found positive changes in hormones associated with stress. [1] [2] [3] Also, studies have found the practice may be associated with increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability. [4] [5]
Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 00:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
This is the lead of the TM Sidhi article, and citing the number of studies for the TM technique misguides the reader, but if that's what you both want, no worries, for now.( olive ( talk) 03:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC))
Will has repeatedly emphasized that the sources should explicitly be about the TM-Sidhi program. Ospina does assess quality of TM-Sidhi research, though it would be up to whoever adds Ospina to insure that the TM-Sidhi studies were assessed as low quality, since some TM studies were rated highly. The Cochrane reviews don't have anything to do with TM-Sidhi research. I don't think that any of the pseudoscience sources mention TM-Sidhi. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
The consensus above is that sources in this article should be explicitly about the TM-Sidhi program, the Maharishi Effect, or Yogic Flying. There are many sources that don't meet this criterion. That includes many of the pseudoscience sources, the Cochrane reviews, and the Ospina meta-analyses. (However, Ospina's quality assessment does explicitly include TM-Sidhi.) These sources should therefore be removed. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
There's a question about this material. Does anyone have access to the source to provide a quotation? Will Beback talk 11:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
It's important to distinguish between theory and methodology. These are scientific studies, published in peer-reviewed journals. The methodology is accepted as scientific. The journals that published these studies and the peer reviewers that examined them agreed that the data supposed the hypothesis. The main criticism of this research has been the theory that explains the findings. Again, Journal of Conflict Resolution is a top journal. There was a special editorial on this study, as well as an editorial by one of the peer reviewers. They made exactly this point: that the methodology was solid, the data appeared to support the hypothesis, but the theory was difficult to accept. The critique by Fales and Markovsky is largely Bayesian, which is a method for deciding a priori whether a scientific result is likely. Bayesian analysis is used sometimes, but among philosophers of science it doesn't have much respect. In part that's because it's basically setting aside the scientific method and saying, "We can use reason to decide whether a phenomenon is likely, apart from any experimentation." Regarding how to characterize those making objections, we should only be using published peer-reviewed critiques, not an editorial in the Dallas Observer or stuff in popular media by skeptics. By the way, the debate among scientists regarding the theory, and to a much lesser extent whether the data support the hypothesis, is typical. Many many studies undergo this back-and-forth. It's not exceptional. Consider, for example, the controversy surrounding the research on statins, or antidepressants. This is part of the scientific process. It's a dialog. "Called into question" may be misleading for that reason. A reader who doesn't understand this process will think that this situation is somehow exceptional. "Questioned" is appropriate. TimidGuy ( talk) 09:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Is this book published by a reliable publisher? The Crime Vaccine. -- Uncreated ( talk) 21:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
This is a pretty significant claim. Can't we find a better source than an anonymous website? The source of thought is an issue debated by philosophers and scientists for hundreds of years, so to simply state outright that the source is "Transcendental Consciousness" (TC) is a big leap. Perhaps we should attribute it. Will Beback talk 02:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
From Russel, Chapter 8, "The Fourth State of Consciousness" opening paragraph:
Throughout the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique one is wide awake. Even when one transcends the finest level of mental activity and arrives at the state of restful alertness one still remains consciousness. In this state of quiet all mental activity has died away. Consciousness has ceased to vibrate and there is no longer anything to be conscious of. The normal thinking activity of the mind has been transcended and for tjhis reason the state is know as transcendental consciousness.
Transcendental Consciousness is beyond thought, but is also the source of all possibility and therefore of all thought. TC is described as the source of thought, the field of all possibilities, and parallels in physics and maybe is the same as The Unified Field or the vacuum state- a field that seems to be empty but also gives rise to all of our created universe. The state is pure potentiality. So thought in TM Sidhi is purportedly projected from this source of thought, or TC. ( olive ( talk) 16:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC))
I have no problem with that. I prefer short and accurate and to the point than a lot of questionable content.( olive ( talk) 01:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC))
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All the randomized clinical trials of TM for the control of blood pressure published to date have important methodological weaknesses and are potentially biased by the affiliation of authors to the TM organization.
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All 4 positive trials recruited subjects from among people favourably predisposed towards TM, and used passive control procedures …The association observed between positive outcome, subject selection procedure and control procedure suggests that the large positive effects reported in 4 trials result from an expectation effect. The claim that TM has a specific and cumulative effect on cognitive function is not supported by the evidence from randomized controlled trials.
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Are the assertions in the sentence not supported by the sources? Will Beback talk 00:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education. It is difficult to determine definitive effects of meditation practices in healthcare as the quality of research has design limitations and a lack of methodological rigor. Part of this difficulty is because studies have the potential for bias due to the connection of researchers to the TM organization, and enrollment of subjects with a favorable opinion of TM.
The developing consensus of uninvolved editors at WP:NPOVN#Golden Domes seems to be that TM-Sidhi is a fringe topic, per WP:FRINGE. If anyone has a view on this matter they should comment there. Will Beback talk 04:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I manually archived this talk page, then rolled it back to let the bot handle it. Please feel free to redo or undo as needed... Dreadstar ☥ 08:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
An IP has put this in the article several times:
In 2002, The Maharishi University of Management (M.U.M.) Press published The Complete Book of Yogic Flying by Craig Pearson. The 600-page book is profusely illustrated with full-color photographs of yogic flyers. However, the choice of title is unfortunate because the book contains pictures only of men practicing the flying sutra. There are no photographs of female flyers, even though women were the first to be successful in yogic flying, when the flying sutra was initially given out by Maharishi. According to Craig Pearson, there are no photos of female flyers in the book because Maharishi gave specific instructions that photographs were not to be taken of women practicing the flying sutra, only of men. This paragraph (written by a woman) has been deleted twice, probably by a male TM censor
I left a note on her talk page explaining why it violates Wikipedia's policy of no original research. TimidGuy ( talk) 09:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
An editor claiming to be Huw Dixon removed this:
Huw Dixon, Professor of Economics at York University, says: "I have been following research on the Maharishi Effect over the past 20 years. Its conclusions are so strong that it demands action from those responsible for government policy." [1]
The information is well sourced. I'd say leave it out for now, if that's his wish. I'm not sure what policy would bear on this. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:09, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The lead refers extensively to research on the TM technique. Since this article is not about TM, and the research is not on the TM-Sidhi program, I feel it could be removed from the lead. In addition, all these points appear in several articles on TM and TM reesearch, with almost exactly the same text, so perhaps is redundant here. I welcome other editors' feedback before making any changes to the text.
Here is the text I am referring to:
Skeptics have called TM or its associated theories and technologies a " pseudoscience". [2] [3] [4] Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education. [5] [6] [7] It is difficult to determine definitive effects of meditation practices in healthcare as the quality of research has design limitations and a lack of methodological rigor. [5] [8] [9] Part of this difficulty is because studies have the potential for bias due to the connection of researchers to the TM organization, and enrollment of subjects with a favorable opinion of TM. [10] [11] failed verification
The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety
A few studies of overall poor methodological quality were available for each comparison in the meta-analyses, most of which reported nonsignificant results. TM had no advantage over health education to improve measures of systolic blood pressure and diastolic blood pressure, body weight, heart rate, stress, anger, self-efficacy, cholesterol, dietary intake, and level of physical activity in hypertensive patients
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As a result of the limited number of included studies, the small sample sizes and the high risk of bias, we are unable to draw any conclusions regarding the effectiveness of meditation therapy for ADHD.
Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.
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As a result of the limited number of included studies, the small sample sizes and the high risk of bias
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All the randomized clinical trials of TM for the control of blood pressure published to date have important methodological weaknesses and are potentially biased by the affiliation of authors to the TM organization.
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All 4 positive trials recruited subjects from among people favourably predisposed towards TM, and used passive control procedures …The association observed between positive outcome, subject selection procedure and control procedure suggests that the large positive effects reported in 4 trials result from an expectation effect. The claim that TM has a specific and cumulative effect on cognitive function is not supported by the evidence from randomized controlled trials.
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I'd suggest a sentence by sentence analysis. I agree this entire paragraph is inaccurate and needs to be fixed.( olive ( talk) 15:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC))
I wouldn't move it until we have determined that it does or doesn't belong in the article. We have a copy here to refer to.( olive ( talk) 14:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC))
:::::Yes, I think that is a good idea. Should we move the content to the talk page while it s being examined or would you rather leave it for the moment?--
Luke Warmwater101 (
talk) 23:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC) Sorry that was a mistake, did not mean to post, Olive has already responded. --
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The following sentence should be deleted because none of the sources examines studies on subjects practicing the TM-Sidhi program: "Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education." Neither of the Cochrane reviews by Krisanaprakornkit includes studies on the TM-Sidhi program. And none of the meta-analyses by Ospina includes studies in which the subjects practiced the TM-Sidhi program.
The following sentence gives three citations, but two of the three are unrelated to the TM-Sidhi program: "It is difficult to determine definitive effects of meditation practices in healthcare as the quality of research has design limitations and a lack of methodological rigor." Neither the 2003 nor 2004 review by Canter and Ernst look at any studies that included subjects on the TM-Sidhi program. The examination of the quality of 230 studies on TM and the TM-Sidhii program by Ospina does include a handful (fewer than 10) of studies in which the subjects were practicing the TM-Sidhi program. However, the text of the article doesn't mention the results of the quality assessment of these studies on the TM-Sidhi program. One would need to look at the relevant appendix to see how these particular studies rated.
The following sentence should be deleted because, as noted above, the reviews by Canter and Ernst do not include studies in which the subjects were practicing the TM-Sidhi program: "Part of this difficulty is because studies have the potential for bias due to the connection of researchers to the TM organization, and enrollment of subjects with a favorable opinion of TM."
Regarding the quality of the research on the physiological effects of the TM-Sidhi program, I think that it's likely we'll find that Ospina's general conclusion applies: "Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence." Both the lead and the body of the article should have some statement to this effect. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:53, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I propose that the Maharishi Effect section be moved into its own article (leaving behind a summary) because: 1) At present the Maharishi Effect section dominates this article and creates undue weight/POV. 2) WP:SummaryStyle says: "A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own. The original article should contain a section with a summary of the subtopic's article as well as a link to it." 3) The Maharishi Effect is often defined as the claimed effect created by the practice of Transcendental Mediation, not the TM-Sidhi program as shown below:
Comments? Suggestions? Discussion?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:14, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Here is my initial research, I checked every source except for the scientific studies which I did not locate in such a short time. but, even with an incomplete list, a lot of these sources are about the Sidhis, not just TM.
Here they are
Their mission started 13 years ago at the Maharishi International University (MIU) in Fairfield, Iowa, when MIU researchers observed a sharp drop in crime, accidents and sickness in four nearby cities. They concluded that the drop was caused by a sort of sympathetic vibration emitted from the maharishi's disciples at MIU meditating together.
Maharishi introduced the TM-Sidhi program, including Yogic Flying, in 1976. Group practice of this program was observed to be particularly beneficial. On the basis of analogies to physical systems, scientists estimated that the coherence generated by group practice of the TM-Sidhi program should be proportional to the square of the number of participants. Taking into account the “1%” finding, it was predicted that a group with size equal to the square root of 1% of a population would have a measurable influence on the quality of life of that population. For example, a group of 200 practicing the TM-Sidhi program together in a city of four million (100x200x200) would be sufficient to produce a measurable influence on the whole city; a group of 1600 in the U.S. would influence 256 million (100x1600x1600) people, the whole population of the U.S.; and a group of 7000 would influence 4.9 billion (100x7000x7000) people, the population of the world at that time.
P 29 Likewise, when only the square root of one percent f the population practice Transcendental Meditation , the TM-Sidhi Programme and Yogic Flying together, the Extended Maharishi Effect is observed
(This was not about ME but the sentence is correctly quoted and can be considered ME by inference). On 9 January 2008, having heard from twenty-seven Rajas that many times the required number of Yogic Flyers have been trained to create perpetual Invincibility for the whole world; and having also heard the news as documented in the world press about the irrevocable transformation in world consciousness—greater harmony, positivity, and progress in all areas of life—His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi expressed the following wish:
Not specifically about TM or TM Sidhi: Question: Coherence and Invincibility Dr Hagelin: ‘A question has come in on the subject of defence that says: How will knowledge of the Constitution of the Universe in the life of the people make the knowledge of defence complete and make the nation invincible?’ Maharishi: ‘You have that example of the Meissner Effect: if the coherence is strong inside, then negative things do not enter into it. It is a proven reality. If the light is there, darkness has no way to enter the area. If the coherence is there, if the positivity is there, then negativity cannot enter it. It is the Meissner Effect. ‘That is why we want to have a very strong, coherent invincibility feature in our international world. Then negative things will not germinate from within the world and will not come from outside the world. Otherwise, inner poison sprouts and from outside all kinds of poison come in. The whole thing is very obvious.’
Dr Hagelin explained that the number of Yogic Flyers required to produce this coherent effect for the United States is 1730. However, he said, the initial group of 1200 experts is more than enough to create a calming, stabilising effect in national consciousness.
The square root of 1% effect is said to be produced through “group dynamics of consciousness.” It is proposed that a minimum “critical mass” of coherently interacting people is required before this amplification effect can be reliably observed. In a community of 100, both 1% and the square root of 1% would equal one person. Clearly, this would not even constitute a group! None of the over twenty square root of 1% studies accepted for publication inScientific Research on the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program, vol. 4, was on a population smaller than a million because it was decided that small groups of less than approximately 100 may not reliably produce such amplification effects.
Based on the above I feel that there is enough sidhi-related content to keep the section here, unless others feel differently. Opinions?-- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 04:52, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
There's a lot of content on the ME in this article enough that is might be reasonable to split it off into its own article while leaving a summary here.( olive ( talk) 19:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC))
If we keep ME in this article, I think it should be greatly reduced. Some of the material is poorly sourced, including claims from self-published sources (press releases) that violate WP:RS. I guess my preference would be to greatly condense the ME material and keep it here, but wouldn't object if it were split. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:21, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
I noticed one of my recent edits in the History section was reversed [27]. What I intended to do was to summarize, and did not delete nor intend to delete. As it stands, this one case takes up 25% of the entire section, dominating it. It also includes a drawn out quote from a case, which I believe is disallowed as per WP:BLPPRIMARY (Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person). The report as written in my opinion violates WP: WEIGHT. I am trying to add more historical facts to the history section, but I think the case could be summarized and still be fairly represented. Any input on this issue? -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 18:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I have started a thread at the TM project page as from time to time some editors have expressed concerns about the size of the topic area. If this concerns you, please join this discussion. Thanks.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 23:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of TM-Sidhi program's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Dawson":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
The practice section has a reference sentence that refers to a book by Lola Williamson. The sentence says that practitioners read for 10 minute an English translation of the Rig Veda. The section then quotes from Williamson's book further. But after that, there is an unreferenced sentence stating Since that time, practitioners of the TM-Sidhi Program have been instructed to listen to portions of the Ninth and Tenth Mandalas of the Rig Veda recited by Vedic pandits in Sanskrit on audiotape at the end of each program (twice a day). This is not confirmed by Williamson. I have not found any other source that discusses audiotapes. A citation needed tag was added in May. Can anyone try and find a reference for it? If no one can, I suggest that this be removed, especially since Williamson already described readings in her book. -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 00:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Since that time, practitioners of the TM-Sidhi Program have been instructed to listen to portions of the Ninth and Tenth Mandalas of the Rig Veda recited by Vedic pandits in Sanskrit on audiotape at the end of each program (twice a day). citation needed
I am posting a link to this discussion by the edit.-- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 19:56, 11 October 2012 (UTC)