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Producing wine by Muslim subjects has been forbidden in Islamic countries, but Jews and Christians subjects have been allowed to produce them for their own consumption. Usually Muslim in transgression of their own faith used to buy part of those products. Taverns are also run by non-Muslim, when allowed or when done illegally. Famous Shiraz wine used to be called Syraz Khollar (Persian Yiddish : Shiraz Khammar, where khamar is one who raise wine) used to be produced by Shiraz Jewry. Forty years ago when I travelled to Iran and visited Mullah Sadra School in old part of Shiraz, my guide, a Persian Jew from Teheran purchased a box of those wines, all seven-year-old, from a relative house. I do not know if that community still is living in Shiraz or have been faded like the Shiraz wine. Syrah is mispronunciation of Shiraz as to purport that local French or wherever as an exotic and poetical oriental item. At those times Wikipedia didn't exist to prohibit them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.47.92 ( talk) 14:55, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
3 Dec 2021 The above post contains two errors:
1. There is no such thing as "Persian Yiddish". Yiddish is a European language based largely on German (or has very strong connections with old German). I suppose the poster meant Judeo-Persian or Judeo-Farsi, just as there is Judeo-Arabic and Ladino (Judeo-Spanish).
2. As the article clearly states, there is no actual connection between the grape from Shiraz, Iran, and the Syrah grape from France, malheureusement. A DNA test confirmed it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38771806 Nor is there any evidence that Syrah is a deliberate "mispronunciation of Shiraz" to make the Frech grape sound "exotic". (Or did the commenter mean it the other way round?) Dori1951 ( talk) 11:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Syrah is a grape. Shiraz is a style of wine made with the Syrah grape. Since Syrah is from the rhone valley, and it was transplanted elsewhere where Shiraz was made, then shouldn't we stick to the original name of the grape?
It would be the same as calling Sauvignon Blanc "Fume Blanc Grape". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.105.234 ( talk) 00:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(This article should be titled Syrah grape) (This article CLEARLY should be titled "Syrah Grape", I agree) - damn straight
Note to anonymous user who reverted a change on Shiraz/Syrah - it is quite common for Australian and Californian Shiraz wines to be labelled Syrah. If you don't believe me, do a Google search on Australia and Syrah and see what comes up. seglea 07:30, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'd say that well under 10% of Australian Shiraz is labled Syrah based on the (large) selection in the local supermarkets and wine shops here in New Zealand. For example the New Zealand magazine Cuisine (Jul 2003 issue 93) has an article on Aussie Shiraz (pg 157 to 163) which reviews 106 Australian Shiraz's, only 1 (Rosemount Estate 1998 Balmoral Syrah) was called Syrah. So while not unheard of I wouldn't personally call it common. Htaccess 09:39, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It may be a matter of where in the world you live. In the New York/New Jersey area of the U.S., Shiraz imported from Australia is very rarely called Syrah. As for what California wines from this grape are called, that is another matter entirely. My impression is that most are labeled Syrah, but I don't know that anyone said that they weren't. As for a search on Australia and Syrah on Google, I'm not sure what that proves. If you look at the pages that come up, often the words "Australia" and "Syrah" are found on the same page, but not necessarily applying to the same wines. Very commonly, the same on-line store is advertising Australian Shiraz and California Syrah. -- Alan W 04:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have now done an extensive rewrite that attempts to incorporate as many viewpoints as possible. Nevertheless, I do not feel it is anything but misleading to leave the reader with an impression other than that, in the words of "Oz Clarke's Encyclopedia of Grapes," "In Australia, it's almost always Shiraz." -- Alan W 04:49, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
One datum: Of all the Australian Shiraz/Syrah wines reviewed by the Wine Spectator (the biggest circulation U.S. wine magzine), 37 were labeled Syrah, and 1856 were Shiraz, a mere 2%. Not sure it is helpful to note the existance of Aussie Syrah in all but the most cursory of ways. Wnissen 03:44, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
OK, more data.
My conclusions:
seglea 06:03, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, then, I think we are mostly in agreement now. I was the "anonymous" user (not that I was really anonymous; I think you just mistook me for someone else) who changed your 'It is common for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah"' to 'It is uncommon for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah".' Like yourself, I have a scholarly background, and I would never make such a blunt, radical change in someone else's writing unless I felt I had a very good reason for it.
And, yes, I believe, as I did then, that it _is_ "clearly wrong to say ... that Syrah is the French name." That is why in my edit of 1 Feb 00:32 UTC I changed "It is known as Syrah in French" to "It is generally known as Syrah in France." Odd, about your Google search. I did the exact same search on "California Shiraz" and "California Syrah" and got "about 526" hits for the former and "about 2,660" hits for the latter. I think one may still draw similar conclusions, and I agree with you, but it is strange how the same search within a few hours can give such different results. -- Alan W 04:22, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I suppose I should be spending my time writing (or trying to write) great Wikipedia articles (or at least making useful edits, or whatever) instead of belaboring this topic to death, but I can't resist a couple of additional comments. :^) Wnissen, I take your word for it that "Syrah is a French word, period." But accepting that still does not dispel all confusion about wines from this grape (or related but not identical grapes, depending on your viewpoint). Oz Clarke's "Encyclopedia of Wine Grapes" says of wines from this grape in France: "In the Languedoc it may sometimes change its name to Shiraz, reflecting brand loyalty to the Australian style of sweeter, more chocolaty fruit." -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Surely the correct name of the grape is Syrah, which is known as Shiraz in certain places. The article implies that the reverse of this is true. There is actually no grape whose actual name is Shiraz. Quentin sadler
I don't think it is as simple as that. This is a known problem. Jancis Robinson, in her "Guide to Wine Grapes," gets around it by having two separate entries, one for Syrah and one for Shiraz, even though she believes they are the same grape. Oz Clarke, in his "Encyclopedia of Grapes," deals with this issue by calling the section on this grape "Syrah/Shiraz." The on-line "Winegrape Glossary" [1] also has separate coverage. In addition, it mentions that in Argentina before the late sixties it was called Balsamina! Somehow, maybe for historical reasons, Syrah does seem to me to be the principal name. But I don't think it is correct, either, to say that Shiraz is not its "actual" name. One grape may be known by different names in different places and at different times, and all names might in some sense be legitimate. -- Alan W 00:17, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The listing should clearly be under either both shiraz and syrah or just under syrah. Syrah is the primary name for this grape in English used by Jancis Robinson, Robert Parker, Steve Tanzer, and Clive Coates. The way the article is currently referenced makes it appear that "Shiraz" is the rule and "syrah" the exception. This is clearly wrong. Veniceslug1
As I sit here sipping a Washington syrah, I thought I should reiterate the consensus that seems to be forming above: the primary name of this entry should be "Syrah." This is the name of the grape in France, where it originated, and it is also the most common name attached to the grape in the United States. On the other hand, few wineries outside of Australia use the term "Shiraz." wschrive 1 Mar 2005
moved to more timely discussion tee hee mroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I hate to complicate things, but Bogle spells it "Sirah," so can we fire back up the ol' debate? MotherFunctor 00:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It should be Syrah. It originates from France where it is called Syrah, and it is also called Syrah in the United States, where many english speakers live who would come to this page. Heck, when I went to look up this type of grape/wine, I typed in a search for Syrah, knowing full well that in some places it is called Shiraz, and I imagine most other people coming here did the same. So, since it was originally Syrah and called Syrah by many of the people who would read this article, this article really should be called Syrah. If other parts of the world want to call Syrah something else, they can get a redirect. Mrxak 08:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Another question on this point - the article states "The name Shiraz for this grape variety is also commonly used in South Africa, Canada, and New Zealand." I live in New Zealand, and while this is partly true, it's also misleading. In my experience, 'Shiraz' is almost never used for wine produced in NZ - it's called 'Syrah'. However, a lot of our red wine is imported from Australia, so it's common to see the name 'shiraz', even though it's not a name that we use a lot. Does that make sense? If so, what would be a good way to change that sentence? Should we just take NZ out of the list?
TheAstonishingBadger (
talk)
21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Meanwhile, can anyone throw any light why it is "Australian" Shiraz (or Merlot or whatever), but almost always "California ..."? Or is this just a quirk of tradition? Come to think of it, from memory I think we have "Oregon", "New Zealand", "New York State" going like "California", but everywhere in Europe, and "South African", going like "Australian". Well, I guess it doesn't matter, but it's odd. It may just be that (thank goodness) we don't have words like "New Zealandian", but we do have "Californian". Hmmm. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And, seglea, we may hear people refer to "Australian" Shiraz and "California" Syrah, but, odd as that usage may seem, it has nothing to do with what appears on the wine labels (I'm not sure if you are implying any connection or not). Looking at some labels pictured in books I have (I don't happen to have any bottles of Syrah/Shiraz handy), I see "McDowell Syrah Mendocino" (from Mendocino County, California), "Penfolds Grange South Australia Shiraz," and so on. No "Californian," but no "Australian" either. -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't know why the old myth keeps resurfacing that links the name of the grape Shiraz with the city of Shiraz in Iran. Several sources I have cited earlier, above, demonstrate the likelihood that the grape Shiraz/Syrah originated in France. See Oz Clarke, "Encyclopedia of Grapes," Jancis Robinson, "Guide to Wine Grapes," and the "Winegrape Glossary" [2]. Shiraz, in what was then Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz. Recent DNA studies suggest strongly, if not definitively, that Syrah/Shiraz originated in Eastern France, where it shows the greatest genetic diversity to this day. -- Alan W 05:45, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is an alternative theory - that the Syrah/Shiraz grape originated in Syracuse, Sicily. The many different versions of the name in use in Australia would suggest that "Shiraz" was a development of earlier names, rather than a reference to the Iranian city of that name. This theory has been boosted by the apparent similarity between the Syrah grape, and the native Sicilian Nero d'Avola, which many local producer feel are related, if not identical. -- MB63 11:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
This is not a myth. Wine producing was outlawed in Iran due to Islamic law, this is why you don't see them protesting Australias ridiculous claim that shiraz is indiginous to australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Persianguyagain ( talk • contribs) 08:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC).
Leilpk's reply - Shiraz, is an ancient city in Iran what was Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Shiraz export to India by European traders recorded at 17th Century.[30],[31]
Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz.
Wine originates from Iran, and Shiraz is indeed from the city of Shiraz.
http://dooroodiran.blogspot.com/2004/01/wine-was-originated-in-iran.html
Edits made to provide more clarity on the use of Shiraz/Syrah and explain the professional motivation for the choice between the two. Also, more information provided on the taste characteristics of Shiraz and specific practical examples given for the student of wine. 5 Jan 2005
I've removed the redundant notes on this talk page. The last, anonymous, user accidentally duplicated the page while editing. I will add that I do not know why that user is hiding behind anonymity. His or her edits of the Shiraz grape article are excellent. Although not all contributors will agree with some of the changes, I think a great improvement has been made in the writing, the accuracy, the completeness, and the clarity of thought. And I include changes to my own writing when I say this. Whoever you are, thank you! -- Alan W 00:12, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind comments and also for the correction of my error. This is my first experience contributing to Wikipedia so I very much appreciate your help. I am a wine professional and would prefer not to have my comments linked to my company, hence the lone-ranger-esque mask. Anonymity gives me more editorial freedom, if you will. Thanks for understanding. Hi-oh Silver, away! 5 Jan 2005
Although saying that no wine is made in Iran, around the Shiraz area. Iran with its hot dry summers and cool valleys is perfect wine country, although for the problem of the Islamic Regime is classed as an illegal activity, although many sources say they are still producing some form of Shiraz (local name) wine in Iran.
Why is it mentione as a noble grape? I would take away but I feel like i'm missing something ... If the text means something else I think it should be rewritten? Stefan 14:17, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
News Flash: The latest poll of the Wine Spectator (12 months ending 18 Septmember 2005) shows 365 reviews of Syrah wines and 216 reviews of Shiraz wines. Also, regarding "noble" grape varieties, some varieties (e.g. chardonnay, reisling, cabernet sauvignon, syrah/shraz, et al.) are considered "noble" in that they are capable of producing wines of exceptional character and ageability, while some others, (e.g. chenin blanc, thompson) produce often charming but ultimately insubstantial wines. See, for one reference, http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/noble.html I am not aware of any definitive list of noble grapes, since one can point to exceptional wines made from any of a vast number of varieties (e.g. tempranillo, sangiovese, nebbiolo, merlot, viognier, semillon, ad infinitum). -- 144.132.193.97 13:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Just looking through the grapes listed on the Wine Project, this is the only one that's in the format XXXXX grape. I understand that it's due to the other things named Shiraz, but I'm not a big fan of the way that the article is currently named. To me, at least, it looks like that title suggests that it's referred to as the "Shiraz grape." One of my goals is to try and make this article a good article, and I do think that having a simpler name would help.
Would it be possible to rename the article to be more inline with the other wine grapes? Ideally I'd like to see it as Shiraz/Syrah (or the opposite), but since it looks like that violates WP:NAME I don't think that will work. The other options I see is either go with Syrah, since that's a name that doesn't have any naming conflicts, or Shiraz (grape), which is more in line with how other topics disambiguate.
I'm personally not sure which one is better. The books that I have that are written by an author from the U.S. or the U.K., Syrah seems to be the primary name. The Australian authors favor Shiraz. Syrah has the advantage of not needing any additional disambiguation, so at this point I'd lean towards that.
I'm not formally proposing a move, I'd just like to know what the (current) editors feel.
(And just for bias reasons, I am an American, but I do call the wine that I make a Shiraz) --- The Bethling (Talk) 05:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that a list of synonyms were just added to the introduction. Is this really necessary (at least in the intro)? Most of these are not particularly common, especially in English Usage. --- The Bethling (Talk) 03:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the intro is probably not the best spot for them. :/ Admittedly, I kinda haphazardly dropped them in there while I was in a editting disagreement with another user on my talk page over a redirect on the Sirac disambig. I agree that all them are not immensely common but I do think there is some value in having mention of synonyms somewhere in the article. But there is probably a better spot then the lead. Agne 03:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to put in a move request for the article name because the current name is out of sync with other wine grape related articles. Between Syrah and Shiraz I will note that the Shiraz grape article was created in Feb 2002 and Syrah was created as a redirect to Shiraz grape in Sept 2002. Between those two, I have no preference but if consensus emerges for Syrah to be the article name then I would support it. The other option would be to have normal disambiguation as
Shiraz (grape). A dark house candidate is the
Syrah/Shiraz which doesn't seem to sync well with naming conventions either. So lets opinion up a discussion on the different names. In fairness I will invite both the French & Australian Wikiprojects to the discussion since this is obviously a regional spelling issue. But hopefully this is one we can come with an amicable consensus on.
Agne
22:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Potential article title
I was bold and went with the Shiraz (grape) move. Once the other grapes that Rmherman mentioned where formatted to consistency, there was no reason not to format this the same. Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This obviously is full of generalizations but I would have to disagree that Shiraz is usually dark berries as opposed to red. The McLaren Vale is often red raspberry, cherry and strawberry matched with white pepper notes. The Barossa, as well, can tend toward the impression of darker berries due to the earth tones, spice and heft of the wines but the mid-palate is a strong, rich core of red berries along with black berries. It is important to understand the distinction between the riper red-leaning berry flavor and the more blueberry driven tones of the rhone and californian styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.50.242 ( talk) 21:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
It looks like this article is going through some major rewriting (looking good Tomas!), so any definitive thoughts on assessment should wait till that is done. This article looks mostly on the B side but there are a couple things that jump out-
I should mentioned some nonadjustable references in this page. 1) The wine which was produced in Iran (and especially in Shiraz city) was red wine. There are a lot of historical and literature evidences that proof this fact. The Persian word for wine is "May" and the color of red wine (dark red) is called "May-goon" which means "Like-wine". In addition, all (without exceptions) literature sources use wine and blood as symbolic synonyms. Since the history of Persia (and language) is traced to 7000 years ago, one can conclude that "wine of Iran (Shiraz) was red". 2) The wine that nowadays (although there are many barriers has been made by government) is made in Iran are red and the taste is very similar to Shiraz brand. There is no evidence that shows people of Shiraz region used another version of wine. 3) Shiraz is an ancient Persian name but I could not find any meaning for the word Shiraz or Syrah in English and French. If some one can clear that why people of Rhône named their wine Shiraz (in contrary to many other village and chateaus that call their wine with local names) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinima ( talk • contribs) 10:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
BTW: White wine can be and is made from red grapes. Pinot Noir (a red grape) is a typical component of Champagne. Simply separate the juice from the skins. Wine only becomes red when fermented with the skins. -- 165.145.225.11 ( talk) 06:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Unrelated to the above, it seems more sources and common uses would indicate that Syrah is the proper location for the grape--not the least of which, you get the benefit of not needing the (grape) disambiguation. So, should we start the page move process? Agne Cheese/ Wine 14:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) In all honesty, if we were to do a split-I'd be incline to rewrite the article (ala Cabernet Sauvignon) so there wouldn't be any issues about page history. Outside of Tomas' recent work on origins and history (which is fabulous and a must have), the rest of the article is a bit weak and could use alot of work. There is very little discussion about winemaking and viticulture, plus what is essentially the "wine region" section is kind of presented in a hodge podge fashion. If this article were to become Shiraz, the only item that would really need to be "merged" into a more comprehensive Syrah article would be the history and origin (leaving a summary here of course) and we can leave a more detailed attribution note on the Syrah talk page. (Or I'm sure Tomas, as the original author, would be willing to "readd" his material to the new Syrah article to create essentially a similar page history.) But anyways, that is obviously not the first choice since Shiraz wine is but a sub-topic really of understanding the Syrah grape and would be best kept together. I think that important consideration has sadly been lost due to the ill advised naming of this article. Tomas is dead on in his evaluation as to the relationship between varietally labeled Shiraz and the Syrah grape. Shiraz is really just a wine style or branding and in the context of ampelographical history, grape physiology, viticulture and winemaking techniques--the discussion is almost always of the Syrah grape. In the concept of discussing the grape, it is by far the most WP:COMMONNAME. Agne Cheese/ Wine 12:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 16:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
In reference to the lengthy discussion above, I have now more or less finished writing the sections on the origin of Syrah/Shiraz, and the various legends. Therefore, I now propose moving the article to the name Syrah, where it would be easier to bring it into more final form. In short, my reasons for this request is:
And there is a laundry list of more examples that show the overwhelmingly most WP:COMMONNAME that the average Wikipedia reader (who may or may not be a wine drinker), in a context particularly about the grape, is Syrah. While I do not discount the popularity of the Shiraz style and the large presence of Australian wines on the market, I similarly would not discount the large presence and popularity of Italian Pinot Grigio but I would still advocate that our article be at the more common name of Pinot gris. Agne Cheese/ Wine 19:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This ref link is dead:<ref name="Syrah WW Origins">: Carole Meredith: Origins of Syrah, p. 3-4 in: The Syrah Producers' Club 19 April 2004 - Syrah Worldwide Roma.(The requested document was not found on this server.) I've tagged a couple of occurences, but there may be some more. I haven't searched for an alternative because it appears that a task force (if I understand correctly) will be attending to this article shortly. However, if replacement suitable sources for the variety are found on French pages, I would be most happy to check them out and translate them from French. Just leave a message and a link on my talk page.-- Kudpung ( talk) 14:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Shiraz is the Internationally recognized name of the grape variety as well as the wine varietal. One cannot trade Shiraz with the name Syrah on their commercial documents, it is unrecognizable! Also, as another way to prove which name is the more well-known one, just Google the name Syrah, you'll get 9 million results, which a lot of them are not even related to the garpe or wine. While if you type Shiraz, you'll get +11 million, where majority are related to the popular grape or the wine varietal. Plus, with no doubt the grape variety is related to the city Shiraz in Iran that used to be the place for some of the best produced wines in the World; sadly all stopped after the islamic revolution. So please do not co-operate with the Islamic radicals to uproot the originality of the name! Armaiti ( talk) 08:43, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
This city, Shiraz, wasn't a radical islamic city 33 years ago and had a high production of this wine those days. There are people who still making their own red wine named shiraz wine in their home basement in this city with the same taste and color to the worldwide ones. It is really shameful to sieze other nations heritage and monopoly it in your own name. The most stupid part is the writer intention, trying to forge the origin of this wine and refer it to nowhere named Syrah in France.!!!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leilapk ( talk • contribs) 12:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I myself never heard of Shirazi wine ,if you have any evidence refer please! I added two reliable references to this article showing evidence that this wine exported to Europe at 17th century. However, I think you are this much prejudice so that get blind and cann't see the dry fact. Bet you wish to change this wine name, but sale of this product would drop badly, since this wine is known for its origin, Shiraz which is an ancient city in Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.32.46.236 ( talk) 19:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I found the origin of thai food is a small vilage in California.It would be nice if you could write something about it.
"The DNA typing leaves no room for doubt in this matter, and the numerous other hypotheses of the grape's origin which have been forwarded during the years all completely lack support in the form of documentary evidence or ampelographic investigations, be it by methods of classical botany or DNA. Instead, they seem to have been based primarily or solely on the name or synonyms of the variety. Varying orthography for grape names render dubious any name-based evidence of origins. Nevertheless, origins such as Syracuse or the famous Iranian city of Shiraz have been proposed while the genomic studies had yet to be done."
This does not read as having a neutral and encyclopedic tone to me, particularly when some of the claims being made as truth when in fact that are simply consensus opinions held by most, but not all of the sources of the article.
Still I may be reading this wrong (tone is so easy to get wrong), so I thought it best to ask if others agree before I take to rewriting this paragraph. Thanks! Jmbranum ( talk) 03:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Given that Syrah is clearly the offspring of two French grapes, please present any possible evidence that could support an alternative theory. I make no defense of the clarity of the writing, which IMO could use some polishing. The fundamental content, however, is not in dispute by any academic source that I am aware of. Sedimentary ( talk) 04:00, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
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Producing wine by Muslim subjects has been forbidden in Islamic countries, but Jews and Christians subjects have been allowed to produce them for their own consumption. Usually Muslim in transgression of their own faith used to buy part of those products. Taverns are also run by non-Muslim, when allowed or when done illegally. Famous Shiraz wine used to be called Syraz Khollar (Persian Yiddish : Shiraz Khammar, where khamar is one who raise wine) used to be produced by Shiraz Jewry. Forty years ago when I travelled to Iran and visited Mullah Sadra School in old part of Shiraz, my guide, a Persian Jew from Teheran purchased a box of those wines, all seven-year-old, from a relative house. I do not know if that community still is living in Shiraz or have been faded like the Shiraz wine. Syrah is mispronunciation of Shiraz as to purport that local French or wherever as an exotic and poetical oriental item. At those times Wikipedia didn't exist to prohibit them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.47.92 ( talk) 14:55, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
3 Dec 2021 The above post contains two errors:
1. There is no such thing as "Persian Yiddish". Yiddish is a European language based largely on German (or has very strong connections with old German). I suppose the poster meant Judeo-Persian or Judeo-Farsi, just as there is Judeo-Arabic and Ladino (Judeo-Spanish).
2. As the article clearly states, there is no actual connection between the grape from Shiraz, Iran, and the Syrah grape from France, malheureusement. A DNA test confirmed it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38771806 Nor is there any evidence that Syrah is a deliberate "mispronunciation of Shiraz" to make the Frech grape sound "exotic". (Or did the commenter mean it the other way round?) Dori1951 ( talk) 11:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Syrah is a grape. Shiraz is a style of wine made with the Syrah grape. Since Syrah is from the rhone valley, and it was transplanted elsewhere where Shiraz was made, then shouldn't we stick to the original name of the grape?
It would be the same as calling Sauvignon Blanc "Fume Blanc Grape". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.105.234 ( talk) 00:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(This article should be titled Syrah grape) (This article CLEARLY should be titled "Syrah Grape", I agree) - damn straight
Note to anonymous user who reverted a change on Shiraz/Syrah - it is quite common for Australian and Californian Shiraz wines to be labelled Syrah. If you don't believe me, do a Google search on Australia and Syrah and see what comes up. seglea 07:30, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'd say that well under 10% of Australian Shiraz is labled Syrah based on the (large) selection in the local supermarkets and wine shops here in New Zealand. For example the New Zealand magazine Cuisine (Jul 2003 issue 93) has an article on Aussie Shiraz (pg 157 to 163) which reviews 106 Australian Shiraz's, only 1 (Rosemount Estate 1998 Balmoral Syrah) was called Syrah. So while not unheard of I wouldn't personally call it common. Htaccess 09:39, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It may be a matter of where in the world you live. In the New York/New Jersey area of the U.S., Shiraz imported from Australia is very rarely called Syrah. As for what California wines from this grape are called, that is another matter entirely. My impression is that most are labeled Syrah, but I don't know that anyone said that they weren't. As for a search on Australia and Syrah on Google, I'm not sure what that proves. If you look at the pages that come up, often the words "Australia" and "Syrah" are found on the same page, but not necessarily applying to the same wines. Very commonly, the same on-line store is advertising Australian Shiraz and California Syrah. -- Alan W 04:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have now done an extensive rewrite that attempts to incorporate as many viewpoints as possible. Nevertheless, I do not feel it is anything but misleading to leave the reader with an impression other than that, in the words of "Oz Clarke's Encyclopedia of Grapes," "In Australia, it's almost always Shiraz." -- Alan W 04:49, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
One datum: Of all the Australian Shiraz/Syrah wines reviewed by the Wine Spectator (the biggest circulation U.S. wine magzine), 37 were labeled Syrah, and 1856 were Shiraz, a mere 2%. Not sure it is helpful to note the existance of Aussie Syrah in all but the most cursory of ways. Wnissen 03:44, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
OK, more data.
My conclusions:
seglea 06:03, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, then, I think we are mostly in agreement now. I was the "anonymous" user (not that I was really anonymous; I think you just mistook me for someone else) who changed your 'It is common for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah"' to 'It is uncommon for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah".' Like yourself, I have a scholarly background, and I would never make such a blunt, radical change in someone else's writing unless I felt I had a very good reason for it.
And, yes, I believe, as I did then, that it _is_ "clearly wrong to say ... that Syrah is the French name." That is why in my edit of 1 Feb 00:32 UTC I changed "It is known as Syrah in French" to "It is generally known as Syrah in France." Odd, about your Google search. I did the exact same search on "California Shiraz" and "California Syrah" and got "about 526" hits for the former and "about 2,660" hits for the latter. I think one may still draw similar conclusions, and I agree with you, but it is strange how the same search within a few hours can give such different results. -- Alan W 04:22, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I suppose I should be spending my time writing (or trying to write) great Wikipedia articles (or at least making useful edits, or whatever) instead of belaboring this topic to death, but I can't resist a couple of additional comments. :^) Wnissen, I take your word for it that "Syrah is a French word, period." But accepting that still does not dispel all confusion about wines from this grape (or related but not identical grapes, depending on your viewpoint). Oz Clarke's "Encyclopedia of Wine Grapes" says of wines from this grape in France: "In the Languedoc it may sometimes change its name to Shiraz, reflecting brand loyalty to the Australian style of sweeter, more chocolaty fruit." -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Surely the correct name of the grape is Syrah, which is known as Shiraz in certain places. The article implies that the reverse of this is true. There is actually no grape whose actual name is Shiraz. Quentin sadler
I don't think it is as simple as that. This is a known problem. Jancis Robinson, in her "Guide to Wine Grapes," gets around it by having two separate entries, one for Syrah and one for Shiraz, even though she believes they are the same grape. Oz Clarke, in his "Encyclopedia of Grapes," deals with this issue by calling the section on this grape "Syrah/Shiraz." The on-line "Winegrape Glossary" [1] also has separate coverage. In addition, it mentions that in Argentina before the late sixties it was called Balsamina! Somehow, maybe for historical reasons, Syrah does seem to me to be the principal name. But I don't think it is correct, either, to say that Shiraz is not its "actual" name. One grape may be known by different names in different places and at different times, and all names might in some sense be legitimate. -- Alan W 00:17, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The listing should clearly be under either both shiraz and syrah or just under syrah. Syrah is the primary name for this grape in English used by Jancis Robinson, Robert Parker, Steve Tanzer, and Clive Coates. The way the article is currently referenced makes it appear that "Shiraz" is the rule and "syrah" the exception. This is clearly wrong. Veniceslug1
As I sit here sipping a Washington syrah, I thought I should reiterate the consensus that seems to be forming above: the primary name of this entry should be "Syrah." This is the name of the grape in France, where it originated, and it is also the most common name attached to the grape in the United States. On the other hand, few wineries outside of Australia use the term "Shiraz." wschrive 1 Mar 2005
moved to more timely discussion tee hee mroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I hate to complicate things, but Bogle spells it "Sirah," so can we fire back up the ol' debate? MotherFunctor 00:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It should be Syrah. It originates from France where it is called Syrah, and it is also called Syrah in the United States, where many english speakers live who would come to this page. Heck, when I went to look up this type of grape/wine, I typed in a search for Syrah, knowing full well that in some places it is called Shiraz, and I imagine most other people coming here did the same. So, since it was originally Syrah and called Syrah by many of the people who would read this article, this article really should be called Syrah. If other parts of the world want to call Syrah something else, they can get a redirect. Mrxak 08:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Another question on this point - the article states "The name Shiraz for this grape variety is also commonly used in South Africa, Canada, and New Zealand." I live in New Zealand, and while this is partly true, it's also misleading. In my experience, 'Shiraz' is almost never used for wine produced in NZ - it's called 'Syrah'. However, a lot of our red wine is imported from Australia, so it's common to see the name 'shiraz', even though it's not a name that we use a lot. Does that make sense? If so, what would be a good way to change that sentence? Should we just take NZ out of the list?
TheAstonishingBadger (
talk)
21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Meanwhile, can anyone throw any light why it is "Australian" Shiraz (or Merlot or whatever), but almost always "California ..."? Or is this just a quirk of tradition? Come to think of it, from memory I think we have "Oregon", "New Zealand", "New York State" going like "California", but everywhere in Europe, and "South African", going like "Australian". Well, I guess it doesn't matter, but it's odd. It may just be that (thank goodness) we don't have words like "New Zealandian", but we do have "Californian". Hmmm. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And, seglea, we may hear people refer to "Australian" Shiraz and "California" Syrah, but, odd as that usage may seem, it has nothing to do with what appears on the wine labels (I'm not sure if you are implying any connection or not). Looking at some labels pictured in books I have (I don't happen to have any bottles of Syrah/Shiraz handy), I see "McDowell Syrah Mendocino" (from Mendocino County, California), "Penfolds Grange South Australia Shiraz," and so on. No "Californian," but no "Australian" either. -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't know why the old myth keeps resurfacing that links the name of the grape Shiraz with the city of Shiraz in Iran. Several sources I have cited earlier, above, demonstrate the likelihood that the grape Shiraz/Syrah originated in France. See Oz Clarke, "Encyclopedia of Grapes," Jancis Robinson, "Guide to Wine Grapes," and the "Winegrape Glossary" [2]. Shiraz, in what was then Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz. Recent DNA studies suggest strongly, if not definitively, that Syrah/Shiraz originated in Eastern France, where it shows the greatest genetic diversity to this day. -- Alan W 05:45, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is an alternative theory - that the Syrah/Shiraz grape originated in Syracuse, Sicily. The many different versions of the name in use in Australia would suggest that "Shiraz" was a development of earlier names, rather than a reference to the Iranian city of that name. This theory has been boosted by the apparent similarity between the Syrah grape, and the native Sicilian Nero d'Avola, which many local producer feel are related, if not identical. -- MB63 11:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
This is not a myth. Wine producing was outlawed in Iran due to Islamic law, this is why you don't see them protesting Australias ridiculous claim that shiraz is indiginous to australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Persianguyagain ( talk • contribs) 08:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC).
Leilpk's reply - Shiraz, is an ancient city in Iran what was Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Shiraz export to India by European traders recorded at 17th Century.[30],[31]
Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz.
Wine originates from Iran, and Shiraz is indeed from the city of Shiraz.
http://dooroodiran.blogspot.com/2004/01/wine-was-originated-in-iran.html
Edits made to provide more clarity on the use of Shiraz/Syrah and explain the professional motivation for the choice between the two. Also, more information provided on the taste characteristics of Shiraz and specific practical examples given for the student of wine. 5 Jan 2005
I've removed the redundant notes on this talk page. The last, anonymous, user accidentally duplicated the page while editing. I will add that I do not know why that user is hiding behind anonymity. His or her edits of the Shiraz grape article are excellent. Although not all contributors will agree with some of the changes, I think a great improvement has been made in the writing, the accuracy, the completeness, and the clarity of thought. And I include changes to my own writing when I say this. Whoever you are, thank you! -- Alan W 00:12, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind comments and also for the correction of my error. This is my first experience contributing to Wikipedia so I very much appreciate your help. I am a wine professional and would prefer not to have my comments linked to my company, hence the lone-ranger-esque mask. Anonymity gives me more editorial freedom, if you will. Thanks for understanding. Hi-oh Silver, away! 5 Jan 2005
Although saying that no wine is made in Iran, around the Shiraz area. Iran with its hot dry summers and cool valleys is perfect wine country, although for the problem of the Islamic Regime is classed as an illegal activity, although many sources say they are still producing some form of Shiraz (local name) wine in Iran.
Why is it mentione as a noble grape? I would take away but I feel like i'm missing something ... If the text means something else I think it should be rewritten? Stefan 14:17, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
News Flash: The latest poll of the Wine Spectator (12 months ending 18 Septmember 2005) shows 365 reviews of Syrah wines and 216 reviews of Shiraz wines. Also, regarding "noble" grape varieties, some varieties (e.g. chardonnay, reisling, cabernet sauvignon, syrah/shraz, et al.) are considered "noble" in that they are capable of producing wines of exceptional character and ageability, while some others, (e.g. chenin blanc, thompson) produce often charming but ultimately insubstantial wines. See, for one reference, http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/noble.html I am not aware of any definitive list of noble grapes, since one can point to exceptional wines made from any of a vast number of varieties (e.g. tempranillo, sangiovese, nebbiolo, merlot, viognier, semillon, ad infinitum). -- 144.132.193.97 13:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Just looking through the grapes listed on the Wine Project, this is the only one that's in the format XXXXX grape. I understand that it's due to the other things named Shiraz, but I'm not a big fan of the way that the article is currently named. To me, at least, it looks like that title suggests that it's referred to as the "Shiraz grape." One of my goals is to try and make this article a good article, and I do think that having a simpler name would help.
Would it be possible to rename the article to be more inline with the other wine grapes? Ideally I'd like to see it as Shiraz/Syrah (or the opposite), but since it looks like that violates WP:NAME I don't think that will work. The other options I see is either go with Syrah, since that's a name that doesn't have any naming conflicts, or Shiraz (grape), which is more in line with how other topics disambiguate.
I'm personally not sure which one is better. The books that I have that are written by an author from the U.S. or the U.K., Syrah seems to be the primary name. The Australian authors favor Shiraz. Syrah has the advantage of not needing any additional disambiguation, so at this point I'd lean towards that.
I'm not formally proposing a move, I'd just like to know what the (current) editors feel.
(And just for bias reasons, I am an American, but I do call the wine that I make a Shiraz) --- The Bethling (Talk) 05:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that a list of synonyms were just added to the introduction. Is this really necessary (at least in the intro)? Most of these are not particularly common, especially in English Usage. --- The Bethling (Talk) 03:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the intro is probably not the best spot for them. :/ Admittedly, I kinda haphazardly dropped them in there while I was in a editting disagreement with another user on my talk page over a redirect on the Sirac disambig. I agree that all them are not immensely common but I do think there is some value in having mention of synonyms somewhere in the article. But there is probably a better spot then the lead. Agne 03:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to put in a move request for the article name because the current name is out of sync with other wine grape related articles. Between Syrah and Shiraz I will note that the Shiraz grape article was created in Feb 2002 and Syrah was created as a redirect to Shiraz grape in Sept 2002. Between those two, I have no preference but if consensus emerges for Syrah to be the article name then I would support it. The other option would be to have normal disambiguation as
Shiraz (grape). A dark house candidate is the
Syrah/Shiraz which doesn't seem to sync well with naming conventions either. So lets opinion up a discussion on the different names. In fairness I will invite both the French & Australian Wikiprojects to the discussion since this is obviously a regional spelling issue. But hopefully this is one we can come with an amicable consensus on.
Agne
22:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Potential article title
I was bold and went with the Shiraz (grape) move. Once the other grapes that Rmherman mentioned where formatted to consistency, there was no reason not to format this the same. Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This obviously is full of generalizations but I would have to disagree that Shiraz is usually dark berries as opposed to red. The McLaren Vale is often red raspberry, cherry and strawberry matched with white pepper notes. The Barossa, as well, can tend toward the impression of darker berries due to the earth tones, spice and heft of the wines but the mid-palate is a strong, rich core of red berries along with black berries. It is important to understand the distinction between the riper red-leaning berry flavor and the more blueberry driven tones of the rhone and californian styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.50.242 ( talk) 21:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
It looks like this article is going through some major rewriting (looking good Tomas!), so any definitive thoughts on assessment should wait till that is done. This article looks mostly on the B side but there are a couple things that jump out-
I should mentioned some nonadjustable references in this page. 1) The wine which was produced in Iran (and especially in Shiraz city) was red wine. There are a lot of historical and literature evidences that proof this fact. The Persian word for wine is "May" and the color of red wine (dark red) is called "May-goon" which means "Like-wine". In addition, all (without exceptions) literature sources use wine and blood as symbolic synonyms. Since the history of Persia (and language) is traced to 7000 years ago, one can conclude that "wine of Iran (Shiraz) was red". 2) The wine that nowadays (although there are many barriers has been made by government) is made in Iran are red and the taste is very similar to Shiraz brand. There is no evidence that shows people of Shiraz region used another version of wine. 3) Shiraz is an ancient Persian name but I could not find any meaning for the word Shiraz or Syrah in English and French. If some one can clear that why people of Rhône named their wine Shiraz (in contrary to many other village and chateaus that call their wine with local names) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinima ( talk • contribs) 10:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
BTW: White wine can be and is made from red grapes. Pinot Noir (a red grape) is a typical component of Champagne. Simply separate the juice from the skins. Wine only becomes red when fermented with the skins. -- 165.145.225.11 ( talk) 06:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Unrelated to the above, it seems more sources and common uses would indicate that Syrah is the proper location for the grape--not the least of which, you get the benefit of not needing the (grape) disambiguation. So, should we start the page move process? Agne Cheese/ Wine 14:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) In all honesty, if we were to do a split-I'd be incline to rewrite the article (ala Cabernet Sauvignon) so there wouldn't be any issues about page history. Outside of Tomas' recent work on origins and history (which is fabulous and a must have), the rest of the article is a bit weak and could use alot of work. There is very little discussion about winemaking and viticulture, plus what is essentially the "wine region" section is kind of presented in a hodge podge fashion. If this article were to become Shiraz, the only item that would really need to be "merged" into a more comprehensive Syrah article would be the history and origin (leaving a summary here of course) and we can leave a more detailed attribution note on the Syrah talk page. (Or I'm sure Tomas, as the original author, would be willing to "readd" his material to the new Syrah article to create essentially a similar page history.) But anyways, that is obviously not the first choice since Shiraz wine is but a sub-topic really of understanding the Syrah grape and would be best kept together. I think that important consideration has sadly been lost due to the ill advised naming of this article. Tomas is dead on in his evaluation as to the relationship between varietally labeled Shiraz and the Syrah grape. Shiraz is really just a wine style or branding and in the context of ampelographical history, grape physiology, viticulture and winemaking techniques--the discussion is almost always of the Syrah grape. In the concept of discussing the grape, it is by far the most WP:COMMONNAME. Agne Cheese/ Wine 12:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 16:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
In reference to the lengthy discussion above, I have now more or less finished writing the sections on the origin of Syrah/Shiraz, and the various legends. Therefore, I now propose moving the article to the name Syrah, where it would be easier to bring it into more final form. In short, my reasons for this request is:
And there is a laundry list of more examples that show the overwhelmingly most WP:COMMONNAME that the average Wikipedia reader (who may or may not be a wine drinker), in a context particularly about the grape, is Syrah. While I do not discount the popularity of the Shiraz style and the large presence of Australian wines on the market, I similarly would not discount the large presence and popularity of Italian Pinot Grigio but I would still advocate that our article be at the more common name of Pinot gris. Agne Cheese/ Wine 19:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This ref link is dead:<ref name="Syrah WW Origins">: Carole Meredith: Origins of Syrah, p. 3-4 in: The Syrah Producers' Club 19 April 2004 - Syrah Worldwide Roma.(The requested document was not found on this server.) I've tagged a couple of occurences, but there may be some more. I haven't searched for an alternative because it appears that a task force (if I understand correctly) will be attending to this article shortly. However, if replacement suitable sources for the variety are found on French pages, I would be most happy to check them out and translate them from French. Just leave a message and a link on my talk page.-- Kudpung ( talk) 14:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Shiraz is the Internationally recognized name of the grape variety as well as the wine varietal. One cannot trade Shiraz with the name Syrah on their commercial documents, it is unrecognizable! Also, as another way to prove which name is the more well-known one, just Google the name Syrah, you'll get 9 million results, which a lot of them are not even related to the garpe or wine. While if you type Shiraz, you'll get +11 million, where majority are related to the popular grape or the wine varietal. Plus, with no doubt the grape variety is related to the city Shiraz in Iran that used to be the place for some of the best produced wines in the World; sadly all stopped after the islamic revolution. So please do not co-operate with the Islamic radicals to uproot the originality of the name! Armaiti ( talk) 08:43, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
This city, Shiraz, wasn't a radical islamic city 33 years ago and had a high production of this wine those days. There are people who still making their own red wine named shiraz wine in their home basement in this city with the same taste and color to the worldwide ones. It is really shameful to sieze other nations heritage and monopoly it in your own name. The most stupid part is the writer intention, trying to forge the origin of this wine and refer it to nowhere named Syrah in France.!!!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leilapk ( talk • contribs) 12:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I myself never heard of Shirazi wine ,if you have any evidence refer please! I added two reliable references to this article showing evidence that this wine exported to Europe at 17th century. However, I think you are this much prejudice so that get blind and cann't see the dry fact. Bet you wish to change this wine name, but sale of this product would drop badly, since this wine is known for its origin, Shiraz which is an ancient city in Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.32.46.236 ( talk) 19:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I found the origin of thai food is a small vilage in California.It would be nice if you could write something about it.
"The DNA typing leaves no room for doubt in this matter, and the numerous other hypotheses of the grape's origin which have been forwarded during the years all completely lack support in the form of documentary evidence or ampelographic investigations, be it by methods of classical botany or DNA. Instead, they seem to have been based primarily or solely on the name or synonyms of the variety. Varying orthography for grape names render dubious any name-based evidence of origins. Nevertheless, origins such as Syracuse or the famous Iranian city of Shiraz have been proposed while the genomic studies had yet to be done."
This does not read as having a neutral and encyclopedic tone to me, particularly when some of the claims being made as truth when in fact that are simply consensus opinions held by most, but not all of the sources of the article.
Still I may be reading this wrong (tone is so easy to get wrong), so I thought it best to ask if others agree before I take to rewriting this paragraph. Thanks! Jmbranum ( talk) 03:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Given that Syrah is clearly the offspring of two French grapes, please present any possible evidence that could support an alternative theory. I make no defense of the clarity of the writing, which IMO could use some polishing. The fundamental content, however, is not in dispute by any academic source that I am aware of. Sedimentary ( talk) 04:00, 2 March 2021 (UTC)