Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
That remark, which I have included, is a particularly fatuous assertion, a plant by Regavim by the looks of it, just as the banned editor who troubled this article for some months seemed to be editing-in Regavim material. A village whose traditional dwelling structures within the ancient ruins are no longer allowed to be used, whose caves were blown up or cemented up, whose other shacks were destroyed several times, whose every application for permits to establish more modern facilities was denied or ignored, whose access to water was shut off, whose electricity connections were cut, whose residents were hounded out at gunpoint for 20 years, obviously can never have streets, or houses, on the very land that they have legal title to from Ottoman times. That Washington Post article is so contrafactual and farcical it shouldn't even be cited, but I've left the essence in. Nishidani ( talk) 21:11, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
We have three paragraphs, each with its own source, and each implying a different chronology (and other diverging details) for the apparition of the mosque in the atrium of, or even inside, the synagogue, which was either still in use, or already abandoned. If archaeologists haven't reached a consensus, then this manner of presentation is a virtue, not a mistake, but haven't they? If that's indeed so, it would greatly help to have it stated explicitly.
Under "Crusader/Ayyubid period" we even have a confusing line about a niche on the northern (??!!) wall of the synagogue-turned-mosque being used as a mihrab, "according to local tradition". Really? One cannot argue with traditions, but the northern wall faces Jerusalem if anything, not Mecca. Arminden ( talk) 15:13, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
This article is yet another clear case of non-encyclopedic approach. There are facts (literary sources and archaeology for the past, modern era and contemporary sources of every kind for the recent and current developments), and there are other types of motivation. The Arabs came in the 7th c. from Arabia, the Jews in the 20th from elsewhere, but the former get to stay in the HISTORY section, while the latter are banned to another one, about a settlement qualified consistently, from the hatnote onwards, as "illegal". An encyclopedia must by definition take the longue durée approach, and leave qualifications out of titles and cross-references such as hatnotes, and put them inside the articles. History is written in time. Of course Jewish Susya is illegal under int'l law, but not under Israeli law; Israeli law shouldn't apply there, but that's a DISCUSSION, not a title or fact for a hatnote. But more than anything, the Crusader casale, the 20th c. Arab village, the Bedouin settlement, and the modern Jewish settlement, are all as much part of the HISTORY of the place as are the ancient Jewish and later Arab (7th-12th c.) towns/villages.
The only ENCYCLOPEDIC approach is to present them all in a concise manner here, and for large subjects place a redirect to a dedicated, expanded article ("main"). The current goiter weighing down the article and dealing with the I/P conflict is out of any proportion. The fact that it largely overlaps with the history section and had a factually wrong heading ("Modern era", rather than "Conflict") clearly marks it as an added, faultily attached transplant from elsewhere. The principle of PROPORTIONALITY is essential in any editorial work, and here it's been totally thrown overboard. Again, I'm NOT disagreeing with the importance of the I/P conflict, with the disgusting events taking place there being of wide interest, I'm strictly talking about editorial work on an allegedly encyclopedic article written for users of every kind and focus. That's my beef. Arminden ( talk) 16:04, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Considering the above ("encyclopedia vs newspaper"), there should be
Starting the article with "Susya is a Palestinian village" is grossly misleading and deeply POV, just by strictly considering the very content of the article. I'm not arguing from a political or ideological pov, just factually. Arminden ( talk) 16:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Two "bad" news for you, dear Nableezy:
Another set of ignored facts. Reality has its way of ignoring those who ignore it. There is a need to organise this jungle, and I have offered a good, logical scheme. And a more realistic one than an ideal, fully rewritten and temperate text as suggested by Nishidani (with all due respect, unless he wishes to write it).
So all we need is declutter this page, cut the repetitions re. village and settlement, and allow the archaeology its own, separate page. Here - a bit of all of that, in proportion.
Alternatively, delete the village article and settlement article and move over whatever material is only there and not here. And kerp the whole thing balanced. Willing and ready? Respect if you say yes.
Nishi, 2015? Kidding me? So for 6 years users are left wondering what's what and nobody cared? That's precisely why I'm talking of facts and reality, in every regard: people "who care so much" left this indescribable mess untouched for 6 years? Good to hear that the 17 families are not fully displaced. So there's some form of a leftover hamlet nearby, which is part of the mix. They probably did move to Yatta or elsewhere and are still tending to fields they could keep. Or maybe they're still living there. I didn't bother to read the conflict-related part because it's a) huge, and b) just one of a long list of such places, each of them a sad story, and Wiki articles don't have the power to change anything. Press articles and diplomatic correspondence hardly do.
This changes nothing. In 6 years the user, me included, avoided this triple mess. That's what matters, the rest is shouting no pasaran while Franco is getting old in his palace. Detached from reality and misleading, a diservice to the user.
Put the 17-family fact in the lead, say how many they used to be, why the number dropped, and cut all the rest (from the lead). Which I've seen done in so many other places post-factum. You can't wag the dog by its tail, certainly not with Wiki. Let's look up Crimea, the Transnistrian Republic, Nagorno Karabakh, whatever you please and learn how it's done. De facto vs de jure. Or you end up with a Wiki Dreamland of the Final Justice.
I want to be able to click on Susiya and find the facts about
and not three useless, messy articles I can't use to understand the place, unstructured, detached from reality, misspelled from the title down, and attempting to compete with another medium, the press. Arminden ( talk) 10:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Typical "I'll stand my ground and reality be damned" attitude: editors caring for justice kept on updating factlets to the list of settler brutal misdeeds in this article, but firmly refused to touch "the evil realm" of the settler-written, other 2 articles? "What I don't acknowledge doesn't exist. Amen." That's imitating the 3 monkeys. Or 1984. Rewrite reality until it fits my concept. I won't ever call this smart. Arminden ( talk) 10:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
I want to be able to click on Susiya and find the facts about (a) the ancient site, now an archaeological park (b)the Palestinian village/hamlet (c) the Jewish settlement
In other words a disconnect to shield the eyes, basically, of tourist who come to marvel at Israel's Jewish achievements past and present without the unnerving murmur of blood shed to establish the modern reality.
I never went back on my bullet list. That's my rough proposal, and I stick to it. Everything overlaps on some level, the skill is to structure it in a manner useful to the reader and to place concise notes about the overlaps, but without losing the focus. Damn, so much commonplace and waste of time. Why does anyone need this? And there we are, you've finally pigeonholed me, and all the wrong way.
I want to get the information I need, when I need it.
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
That remark, which I have included, is a particularly fatuous assertion, a plant by Regavim by the looks of it, just as the banned editor who troubled this article for some months seemed to be editing-in Regavim material. A village whose traditional dwelling structures within the ancient ruins are no longer allowed to be used, whose caves were blown up or cemented up, whose other shacks were destroyed several times, whose every application for permits to establish more modern facilities was denied or ignored, whose access to water was shut off, whose electricity connections were cut, whose residents were hounded out at gunpoint for 20 years, obviously can never have streets, or houses, on the very land that they have legal title to from Ottoman times. That Washington Post article is so contrafactual and farcical it shouldn't even be cited, but I've left the essence in. Nishidani ( talk) 21:11, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
We have three paragraphs, each with its own source, and each implying a different chronology (and other diverging details) for the apparition of the mosque in the atrium of, or even inside, the synagogue, which was either still in use, or already abandoned. If archaeologists haven't reached a consensus, then this manner of presentation is a virtue, not a mistake, but haven't they? If that's indeed so, it would greatly help to have it stated explicitly.
Under "Crusader/Ayyubid period" we even have a confusing line about a niche on the northern (??!!) wall of the synagogue-turned-mosque being used as a mihrab, "according to local tradition". Really? One cannot argue with traditions, but the northern wall faces Jerusalem if anything, not Mecca. Arminden ( talk) 15:13, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
This article is yet another clear case of non-encyclopedic approach. There are facts (literary sources and archaeology for the past, modern era and contemporary sources of every kind for the recent and current developments), and there are other types of motivation. The Arabs came in the 7th c. from Arabia, the Jews in the 20th from elsewhere, but the former get to stay in the HISTORY section, while the latter are banned to another one, about a settlement qualified consistently, from the hatnote onwards, as "illegal". An encyclopedia must by definition take the longue durée approach, and leave qualifications out of titles and cross-references such as hatnotes, and put them inside the articles. History is written in time. Of course Jewish Susya is illegal under int'l law, but not under Israeli law; Israeli law shouldn't apply there, but that's a DISCUSSION, not a title or fact for a hatnote. But more than anything, the Crusader casale, the 20th c. Arab village, the Bedouin settlement, and the modern Jewish settlement, are all as much part of the HISTORY of the place as are the ancient Jewish and later Arab (7th-12th c.) towns/villages.
The only ENCYCLOPEDIC approach is to present them all in a concise manner here, and for large subjects place a redirect to a dedicated, expanded article ("main"). The current goiter weighing down the article and dealing with the I/P conflict is out of any proportion. The fact that it largely overlaps with the history section and had a factually wrong heading ("Modern era", rather than "Conflict") clearly marks it as an added, faultily attached transplant from elsewhere. The principle of PROPORTIONALITY is essential in any editorial work, and here it's been totally thrown overboard. Again, I'm NOT disagreeing with the importance of the I/P conflict, with the disgusting events taking place there being of wide interest, I'm strictly talking about editorial work on an allegedly encyclopedic article written for users of every kind and focus. That's my beef. Arminden ( talk) 16:04, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Considering the above ("encyclopedia vs newspaper"), there should be
Starting the article with "Susya is a Palestinian village" is grossly misleading and deeply POV, just by strictly considering the very content of the article. I'm not arguing from a political or ideological pov, just factually. Arminden ( talk) 16:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Two "bad" news for you, dear Nableezy:
Another set of ignored facts. Reality has its way of ignoring those who ignore it. There is a need to organise this jungle, and I have offered a good, logical scheme. And a more realistic one than an ideal, fully rewritten and temperate text as suggested by Nishidani (with all due respect, unless he wishes to write it).
So all we need is declutter this page, cut the repetitions re. village and settlement, and allow the archaeology its own, separate page. Here - a bit of all of that, in proportion.
Alternatively, delete the village article and settlement article and move over whatever material is only there and not here. And kerp the whole thing balanced. Willing and ready? Respect if you say yes.
Nishi, 2015? Kidding me? So for 6 years users are left wondering what's what and nobody cared? That's precisely why I'm talking of facts and reality, in every regard: people "who care so much" left this indescribable mess untouched for 6 years? Good to hear that the 17 families are not fully displaced. So there's some form of a leftover hamlet nearby, which is part of the mix. They probably did move to Yatta or elsewhere and are still tending to fields they could keep. Or maybe they're still living there. I didn't bother to read the conflict-related part because it's a) huge, and b) just one of a long list of such places, each of them a sad story, and Wiki articles don't have the power to change anything. Press articles and diplomatic correspondence hardly do.
This changes nothing. In 6 years the user, me included, avoided this triple mess. That's what matters, the rest is shouting no pasaran while Franco is getting old in his palace. Detached from reality and misleading, a diservice to the user.
Put the 17-family fact in the lead, say how many they used to be, why the number dropped, and cut all the rest (from the lead). Which I've seen done in so many other places post-factum. You can't wag the dog by its tail, certainly not with Wiki. Let's look up Crimea, the Transnistrian Republic, Nagorno Karabakh, whatever you please and learn how it's done. De facto vs de jure. Or you end up with a Wiki Dreamland of the Final Justice.
I want to be able to click on Susiya and find the facts about
and not three useless, messy articles I can't use to understand the place, unstructured, detached from reality, misspelled from the title down, and attempting to compete with another medium, the press. Arminden ( talk) 10:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Typical "I'll stand my ground and reality be damned" attitude: editors caring for justice kept on updating factlets to the list of settler brutal misdeeds in this article, but firmly refused to touch "the evil realm" of the settler-written, other 2 articles? "What I don't acknowledge doesn't exist. Amen." That's imitating the 3 monkeys. Or 1984. Rewrite reality until it fits my concept. I won't ever call this smart. Arminden ( talk) 10:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
I want to be able to click on Susiya and find the facts about (a) the ancient site, now an archaeological park (b)the Palestinian village/hamlet (c) the Jewish settlement
In other words a disconnect to shield the eyes, basically, of tourist who come to marvel at Israel's Jewish achievements past and present without the unnerving murmur of blood shed to establish the modern reality.
I never went back on my bullet list. That's my rough proposal, and I stick to it. Everything overlaps on some level, the skill is to structure it in a manner useful to the reader and to place concise notes about the overlaps, but without losing the focus. Damn, so much commonplace and waste of time. Why does anyone need this? And there we are, you've finally pigeonholed me, and all the wrong way.
I want to get the information I need, when I need it.