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NPOV says scientific and mathematical proofs are far more universally accepted than supernatural ones, from which it follows that scientific and mathematical proofs are more powerful than supernatural ones (for whatever reason). You and Wesley will agree that the proofs for "Jesus Christ is the son of God" (rejected by Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc) are far less universally accepted than the proofs for "pi is irrational" and "the earth is spherical" (accepted by Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc). Different people and different cultures find different sorts of proofs convincing. If different people and different cultures find different proofs convincing, then Pythagoras's theorem (as we call it) would not have convinced the very different people and cultures of Europe, India, China, etc for the past 2500+ years. But it has. And I'd still like to see a similarly spectacular modern equivalent of Elijah's miracle. Please add it to the Wikipedia if it isn't already here. Our Lady of Fatima is, but I presume that doesn't convince you either. This is my suggested NPOV addition to the article or one of its offshoots:
NPOV says scientific and mathematical proofs are far more universally accepted than supernatural ones, — J. Jacquerie, You continue to say this as though it means something important, but it it's not a clear statement. By trying to use this article (and a few others) to explain yourself, you are risking turning this into even more about you and your views. The paragraph you are proposing is more puff. Mkmcconn 14:10 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Ah, you illustrate your articles! ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum). This is an ad populum fallacy. Because everyone agrees apon a premise, it must be true and the more people agree upon the premise, the truer it is. It leads to absurdity of course (if everyone agreed that the world was flat, it would becomes so). teggers 080207
Most people and cultures believe in some form of supernaturalism; it is far more universally accepted than atheism and materialism. Your statements about papal infallibility reflect a deep misunderstanding of this debate; that question is not something Christians try to prove or disprove, it is a dispute about the tradition of the Church has always been; it's primarily an historical and doctrinal question. Mathematicians and scientists also disagree with each other about specific questions. Someone makes a new discovery or proposes a new formula or theorem, and it takes a while before everyone or most people accept it. I still remember when my high school physics teacher announced that a recent discovery made on a space shuttle mission meant that all the high school physics textbooks would need to be rewritten. I also recall an astronomer vigorously disputing the distance of quasars from us, though he was in the minority. Things aren't as cut and dry as you suggest. Wesley 16:21 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Scientists counter that if this is so, then believers in supernaturalism themselves would be utterly incapable of witnessing any supernatural phenomenon or miracles; all human senses are limited by the laws of physics, and can only sense events occuring in the natural, physical world.
Can I change 'Arguments in favour of supernaturality' to 'Arguments in favour of the existance of the supernatural', as the same for against?
I keep on bumping into scientists who particularly suffer from the preconception that science reveals objective truth. Never mind. If you think it is defensive or offensive, remove the comment. ( 20040302 13:36, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC))
I just removed the following paragraphs, because they are about the social causes of religious persecution. They are quite off-topic for an article on the supernatural. Most books on the Christian religion don't discuss the supernatural in general, and most books on the supernatural never even allude to this topic. This discussion's presence here is more a cause of the personal interests of contributors, but probably not a good editorial placing. If you want, we can move these paragraphs to an appropriate article. We can always mention this subject within this article, and link to the article where this topic is more appropriately discussed. RK
Somebody is editing the Supernatural page and insisting on inserting long, unwieldy, opinionated, and misspelled paragraphs about science and its virtues. While science is indeed a wonderful subject to bring into this page, you needn't vent your worship of it here; and if you must, please at least do so concisely and with good spelling. -RSR 11-06-06 02:42 PM MST
"Humans in good mental health are capable of simulating perceptions that do not exist. This is commonly known as Hallucinations in the sane."
And then, your definition of 'hallucination':
"A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus."
So is a hallucination a perception or not, Wikipedia?
I would have to deduce on my own (because Wikipedia fails to explain why this last bullet is an argument against the supernatural), that the only reason this is even in the article is in an attempt to suggest that religious visions can be explained by naturally (i.e. they are just 'hallucinations in the sane'). Considering Wikipedia's unattended bias towards all things secular, it would make sense that there such a specific agenda exists. But since credibility (or what is left of it) is on the line, the agenda is to remain as subtle as possible. It's almost like an art form. Wikipedia is just one giant easel.
Don't you realize that you're not kidding anyone with this site? Anyone with a reasonably developed intellect can quite easily find major philosophical flaws in the majority of content Wikipedia hosts. Is this site meant to appeal only to those who cannot think critically? Those kind of people no one cares about anyway, so what is the point of such a site? What does it matter if you can brainwash the dumb?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.14.55 ( talk) 18:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I decided to add a cleanup tag today, which will hopefully attract some helpful attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Schmitty120 ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
Under Cleanup I would submit the following paragraph from Section 1. It is wordy, muddled, stream of consciousness. It is terrible 6th grade writing and terrible amateur philosophy.
"So, if something 'supernatural' exists, it must by definition not be supernatural. And only magical thinking that power could come from where power could not come from could contend otherwise. i.e. a contradiction in itself. The question is where may power come from, or if there are other as of yet confirmed or understood places where power comes from. i.e. likewise, for if bigfoot is found and confirmed, he will not be mysterious or supernatural. In the past, people doubted the existence of the rhinoceros. There is little present belief in the existence of the Unicorn. Certainly there may always be things outside of the realm of human understanding, or as of yet unconfirmed and dubious in existence, and some might term these 'supernatural.'" Talkingtomypocket 02:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
...SUPERNATURAL: What happened in ancient times, where does History explain a supernatural. If something is concluded as definite,as with an addition of "so-far" or anything resembling that, then could there be another attempt to see something more of. "Perhaps a meaning of Super".
A Natural if for sure something understandable a perceived through notice and or accountability. Though when there is a figuration that may exist to have allowed something to happen then this could be a phenomenal occurrence. I represent occurrence for that may have existence during the time of figuration.
Example how far back does a science go. Even when a term such as science is not used, it is a happening that a figuration of something and or even a knowledge occurrence, which may even be something of just a calculation that something may occur is in a conduct. Finishing with my Example. The figuration of how the Earth 'has been created' is again a determination of factors through in which a study and a degree of time has been passed. In a somewhat conclusion to this affect as to perhaps advice others of is also the recommendation of what has not been concluded. Although what appears as a bases idea of how the earth is created is an essential, there is the fact that how that was a matter in conduct, also the matter of conduct of how the natural became natural. In study and review of this attempt is the basic conclusion of water, air, dirt, and other mineral products evaluated form the earth. Though the supernatural thing here may be how this occurred. In some resolution and yet still a study there is the mention of a great boom or explosion. This in itself may even have been a represented theory in the past. Though explaining it is yet a, "figuration yet to be asserted.
Here is a theory that in some views God is a supernatural. Question, and in perception of a term in existing manner " Supernatural". If this term did not exist then it is for certain that another then would represent a view of God. Just a suggestion here. In the past and this may theorize as a long time ago, there were a people perhaps amongst other people. In this thought 'amongst is the representation of a, lets say the term for now is tribe' these people built things and manufactured perhaps idealistic situations to support them. Such materials could be a bowl that would withstand the flames as to not crack all the time. A supporting roof that lasted a long time, a wheel for instance. These recommendations are through people, these people have names. For instance Noah is claimed to have lived 900 plus years. Could this venture be that the name Noah lived for this long along with the remedy of Noah. Getting back to to the prior of time when I described the creations of the wheel, roof, and bowl. These people were in a sense worshiped. This terming may have been used in a different way,"worshiped" for instance it may have been another term or perhaps even a feeling, and this could go on for a long period of time. Then there's schooling, this continues, again a term perhaps not used. Though in reference with schooling or a learning degree is the matter of usage. There were the young whom would do the things that were done and it would go over and over like this. Time has passed and many of these people would pass on. To remember these people it was a good reason to be associated with them through a degree, such as a reference. Perhaps this was a name of something. Now lets say through the years there were amongst these people a variety of names, perhaps to represent. What would be in conclusion to a society to reference a deity amongst them all and have the teachings go on through again another degree. This degree could be value or some form of category. Today we may call it a book or a descriptive allowance. I am now involved with all the names in this theory of time, and some small degree I am to relate it as a time of a beginning. A beginning amongst many and in sense to be of self. When in consideration of this organ-izational stance and even a maturity what would a or the recognition be. In Law we have "Law" In a Town we have "town' in Distance we have :Distance" and end we have 'end'. These representations are a conclusion of theory and or standard's. God may in retrospect represent the past present and future.
As well as a supernatural may represent a past present and future. The reason why is existence. What about the fact that if a child is caught under a vehicle and all of a sudden the parent gets a supernatural strength to save to child, whatever the case is, which perhaps would be an exertion, this would be a consideration of a supernatural phenomenon. I use "phenomenon because again that to has to be explained. Though in retrospect this supernatural exercise is of the past present and future, yet still. We have the existence of the person doing the extraordinary factor. The existence is somewhat allowing the capability. This could be a practice, or physical belonging of the person. Then we have the present and actuality of performance. Then we have the future, the explanation, all representing a supernatural situation. David George DeLancey ( talk) 21:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
end'
Why??? Seriously why??? Of all the hundreds of cultures and religions from human history which incorporated some aspect of supernatural beliefs into their worldview, why should Catholicism get such a disproportionate share of this article dedicated to it? Major NPOV violation here! SarrCat ∑;3 04:52, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it would have been easier. This article is a mess. Editor2020, Talk 02:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
There are a number of problems with this article as it exists currently, but the most glaring issue is the almost exclusive focus on supernaturalism is western culture/religion, the most blatant example of this being that the section on Catholicism makes up more than a third of the article, and no major or minor religion even gets so much as a sub-section!! The lead states that "Most religions include the supernatural", but why is there only a section on Catholicism? What about all the other religions? Even in the rest of the article, there is no information whatsoever about the supernatural elements of any eastern religions/philosophies, for example. Why have these been omitted, and what can be done to fix this? SarrCat ∑;3 17:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Sarr Cat, in view of the above (and any further comment which may subsequently come-in), I propose we modify the RfC you initiated to propose specific voting options that comport with these various alternatives. I will create a 3rd Level Heading below this line with what I see these options as representing (all feel free to comment/edit), and so that any additional comments along the lines above can be contributed to the discussion with a logical flow. -- UBI-et-ORBI ( talk) 23:30, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
A. Keep & Fix:
- Use tags to indicate to Wiki readers that the Article has content problems being addressed by editors. Actively engage community on repairing Article.
B. Keep & Fix with Guidelines:
- Same determination as in option A, however members of Talk Page discussion will formulate provisional guidelines for the repair of the Article based on consensus, and will hold all editors to these "Repair Guidelines" until all major tags are removed.
C. TNT:
- Per WP:TNT, remove all extant Article content and re-create Article in its entirety.
D. AfD:
- Remove Article from Wikipedia without specific recourse or design to re-create the Article.
E. Pure Keep:
- Keep Article on Wikipedia without specific recourse or design to ensure proper editing of the Article; allow editors to naturally contribute pursuant to WP Standard & Policies and MoS.
I think you guys are going to have to do most of the work here without me, I started this RFC back in summer, but school has started for me now, so I won't be able to pay attention to any wikipedia related things for a while, at least, not at the level I would have during summer. I hope you can get this sorted out without me though! SarrCat ∑;3 20:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Currently it's a bit of a mess. The religion section is incredibly incomplete, covering only two varieties of Christian religion (Catholicism and Process Theology) and nothing else. This article could also talk about supernatural theories for morality, abstract objects, and all sorts of things. I would think that the history of supernatural ideas is also rich enough that we don't need to stick to contemporary views, but could explore ideas that changed over time in different cultures (my preference would be to include examples where science found natural causes for the origin of life, the solar system, disease, etc.).
I think the 'scientific view' section in the ghost article is the kind of thing this article could have. There are certainly many citation worthy studies on how some supernatural beliefs are surely mistaken (stuff like agency over-detection, or even creationism), and I think there's a survey of professional philosophers that might show the general prevalence of certain supernatural philosophical theories (such as divine command theory, mind-body dualism, and certain forms of platonism, etc.). BrianPansky ( talk) 03:11, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The supernatural does not exist except amongst fantasists. Please provide proof otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2404:E800:EE1A:26:3CAE:886B:5C0E:7EA1 ( talk) 05:02, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Currently the opening paragraph is referenced to a 1910 article from the Harvard Theological Review ([ https://www.jstor.org/stable/1507012?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents this one). As you'd expect from an article over 100 years old and published by a theology journal, the focus is primarily on Christian theology. This is evidently part of the problem with this article. I'll do some digging around to see what I can find to replace it and reform it around something form, say, the last 50 years. :bloodofox: ( talk) 22:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I think we should probably look into some philosophy to provide context for the idea. Especially as supernaturalism is actually a school of thought mentioned in some parts of critical theory. jps ( talk) 23:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
What on earth is going on with this article? The idea of the supernatural has long been a topic of study for scholars (particularly in folklore studies) and human understanding of the natural has shifted and changed over time, yet this article seems to go out of its way to ignore these facts while fixating almost entirely on Christian mythology (just look at the subheaders).
So, instead of a sober history, discussion, and study of the concept of the supernatural, we get a list of stuff about angels and demons and deities. This makes for one of the very worst Wikipedia articles I've seen in a long time. I'm tagging it for not only presenting the material in a WP:PROFRINGE manner but also because it requires a totally need build from its foundation up. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:08, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Bloodofox: For reasons both myself and GliderMaven are unable to fathom, you have completely decimated the article. Your changes are unfounded, and neither supported by global nor local consensus. Yet you have accused both me and GliderMaven of edit-warring simply because we reverted them. Just for future reference: by all means, edit boldly, but don't throw your toys out the pram when your changes aren't accepted. Citizen Canine ( talk) 10:11, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I am a little amused by the above section, but I think it's descended into histrionics, so I'm just going to let it me known that Bloodofox's version is far superior to what was here before.
It is absolutely the case that the topic of the "supernatural" is not defined within the context of any particular religion and so to WP:WEIGHT this article in such a way is contrary to Wikipedia policy. Now, it may be that a small amount of content could be salvageable from previous versions, but it's necessarily going to be small and we need to be careful to follow best editorial practices. Fortunately, Wikipedia is equipped with an excellent "history" option that allows us to go back and look for previous versions.
What needs to happen at this page is WP:TNT. Bloodofox is doing great work in enacting this. I encourage the other users who want to argue for inclusion of particular content to make the case here for precise content they want to include. Then we can start to build the article that should exist.
jps ( talk) 10:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Please propose some sources for us to use and then we can argue about what the "common ways" this article should discuss matters. jps ( talk) 23:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
For the second time I have amended the caption under the image in the infobox.
I visited the article a couple of days ago and saw the caption One of the many supernatural acts attributed to Jesus, walking on water.
I amended the caption to An example of a supernatural act, Saint Peter attempting to walk on water saying in the edit summary that the François Boucher painting is of Peter, not Jesus. @ Citizen Canine: reverted me saying "No, they are both depicted, Jesus more prominently". That is POV OR.
The name of the painting in French is given as ''File:Saint Pierre tentant de marcher sur les eaux by François Boucher.jpg''. The file description says in English it is called Saint Peter Attempting to Walk on Water and in Spanish it is called San Pedro Tentando Caminar Sobre Agua.
Saint Peter all the way, as is "attempting" - tentant, and tentado.
Even our St Peter article does not support Citizen Canine's POV. It has the same image, and the caption says Saint Peter Attempting to Walk on Water, by François Boucher, 1766
The image also appears in 1766 in France, and again, the caption says Saint Peter Attempting to Walk on Water, by François Boucher, 1766
It also appears in Jesus walking on water, but doesn't mention walking on water by anyone!
Thought I had better give my reason for revert here, in light of the toing and froing in the article recently. Moriori ( talk) 02:53, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
As for your "Even if, for some insane reason, you want to deny that Jesus is present,.....", words fail me.
I think that since this image is causing such disagreements, we should change the image to something supernatural that is not religious or at least from another religious tradition. The article right now does not contain anything substantial on miracles. Maybe I can switch it out with something else. Huitzilopochtli1990 ( talk) 04:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
NPOV says scientific and mathematical proofs are far more universally accepted than supernatural ones, from which it follows that scientific and mathematical proofs are more powerful than supernatural ones (for whatever reason). You and Wesley will agree that the proofs for "Jesus Christ is the son of God" (rejected by Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc) are far less universally accepted than the proofs for "pi is irrational" and "the earth is spherical" (accepted by Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc). Different people and different cultures find different sorts of proofs convincing. If different people and different cultures find different proofs convincing, then Pythagoras's theorem (as we call it) would not have convinced the very different people and cultures of Europe, India, China, etc for the past 2500+ years. But it has. And I'd still like to see a similarly spectacular modern equivalent of Elijah's miracle. Please add it to the Wikipedia if it isn't already here. Our Lady of Fatima is, but I presume that doesn't convince you either. This is my suggested NPOV addition to the article or one of its offshoots:
NPOV says scientific and mathematical proofs are far more universally accepted than supernatural ones, — J. Jacquerie, You continue to say this as though it means something important, but it it's not a clear statement. By trying to use this article (and a few others) to explain yourself, you are risking turning this into even more about you and your views. The paragraph you are proposing is more puff. Mkmcconn 14:10 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Ah, you illustrate your articles! ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum). This is an ad populum fallacy. Because everyone agrees apon a premise, it must be true and the more people agree upon the premise, the truer it is. It leads to absurdity of course (if everyone agreed that the world was flat, it would becomes so). teggers 080207
Most people and cultures believe in some form of supernaturalism; it is far more universally accepted than atheism and materialism. Your statements about papal infallibility reflect a deep misunderstanding of this debate; that question is not something Christians try to prove or disprove, it is a dispute about the tradition of the Church has always been; it's primarily an historical and doctrinal question. Mathematicians and scientists also disagree with each other about specific questions. Someone makes a new discovery or proposes a new formula or theorem, and it takes a while before everyone or most people accept it. I still remember when my high school physics teacher announced that a recent discovery made on a space shuttle mission meant that all the high school physics textbooks would need to be rewritten. I also recall an astronomer vigorously disputing the distance of quasars from us, though he was in the minority. Things aren't as cut and dry as you suggest. Wesley 16:21 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Scientists counter that if this is so, then believers in supernaturalism themselves would be utterly incapable of witnessing any supernatural phenomenon or miracles; all human senses are limited by the laws of physics, and can only sense events occuring in the natural, physical world.
Can I change 'Arguments in favour of supernaturality' to 'Arguments in favour of the existance of the supernatural', as the same for against?
I keep on bumping into scientists who particularly suffer from the preconception that science reveals objective truth. Never mind. If you think it is defensive or offensive, remove the comment. ( 20040302 13:36, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC))
I just removed the following paragraphs, because they are about the social causes of religious persecution. They are quite off-topic for an article on the supernatural. Most books on the Christian religion don't discuss the supernatural in general, and most books on the supernatural never even allude to this topic. This discussion's presence here is more a cause of the personal interests of contributors, but probably not a good editorial placing. If you want, we can move these paragraphs to an appropriate article. We can always mention this subject within this article, and link to the article where this topic is more appropriately discussed. RK
Somebody is editing the Supernatural page and insisting on inserting long, unwieldy, opinionated, and misspelled paragraphs about science and its virtues. While science is indeed a wonderful subject to bring into this page, you needn't vent your worship of it here; and if you must, please at least do so concisely and with good spelling. -RSR 11-06-06 02:42 PM MST
"Humans in good mental health are capable of simulating perceptions that do not exist. This is commonly known as Hallucinations in the sane."
And then, your definition of 'hallucination':
"A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus."
So is a hallucination a perception or not, Wikipedia?
I would have to deduce on my own (because Wikipedia fails to explain why this last bullet is an argument against the supernatural), that the only reason this is even in the article is in an attempt to suggest that religious visions can be explained by naturally (i.e. they are just 'hallucinations in the sane'). Considering Wikipedia's unattended bias towards all things secular, it would make sense that there such a specific agenda exists. But since credibility (or what is left of it) is on the line, the agenda is to remain as subtle as possible. It's almost like an art form. Wikipedia is just one giant easel.
Don't you realize that you're not kidding anyone with this site? Anyone with a reasonably developed intellect can quite easily find major philosophical flaws in the majority of content Wikipedia hosts. Is this site meant to appeal only to those who cannot think critically? Those kind of people no one cares about anyway, so what is the point of such a site? What does it matter if you can brainwash the dumb?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.14.55 ( talk) 18:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I decided to add a cleanup tag today, which will hopefully attract some helpful attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Schmitty120 ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
Under Cleanup I would submit the following paragraph from Section 1. It is wordy, muddled, stream of consciousness. It is terrible 6th grade writing and terrible amateur philosophy.
"So, if something 'supernatural' exists, it must by definition not be supernatural. And only magical thinking that power could come from where power could not come from could contend otherwise. i.e. a contradiction in itself. The question is where may power come from, or if there are other as of yet confirmed or understood places where power comes from. i.e. likewise, for if bigfoot is found and confirmed, he will not be mysterious or supernatural. In the past, people doubted the existence of the rhinoceros. There is little present belief in the existence of the Unicorn. Certainly there may always be things outside of the realm of human understanding, or as of yet unconfirmed and dubious in existence, and some might term these 'supernatural.'" Talkingtomypocket 02:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
...SUPERNATURAL: What happened in ancient times, where does History explain a supernatural. If something is concluded as definite,as with an addition of "so-far" or anything resembling that, then could there be another attempt to see something more of. "Perhaps a meaning of Super".
A Natural if for sure something understandable a perceived through notice and or accountability. Though when there is a figuration that may exist to have allowed something to happen then this could be a phenomenal occurrence. I represent occurrence for that may have existence during the time of figuration.
Example how far back does a science go. Even when a term such as science is not used, it is a happening that a figuration of something and or even a knowledge occurrence, which may even be something of just a calculation that something may occur is in a conduct. Finishing with my Example. The figuration of how the Earth 'has been created' is again a determination of factors through in which a study and a degree of time has been passed. In a somewhat conclusion to this affect as to perhaps advice others of is also the recommendation of what has not been concluded. Although what appears as a bases idea of how the earth is created is an essential, there is the fact that how that was a matter in conduct, also the matter of conduct of how the natural became natural. In study and review of this attempt is the basic conclusion of water, air, dirt, and other mineral products evaluated form the earth. Though the supernatural thing here may be how this occurred. In some resolution and yet still a study there is the mention of a great boom or explosion. This in itself may even have been a represented theory in the past. Though explaining it is yet a, "figuration yet to be asserted.
Here is a theory that in some views God is a supernatural. Question, and in perception of a term in existing manner " Supernatural". If this term did not exist then it is for certain that another then would represent a view of God. Just a suggestion here. In the past and this may theorize as a long time ago, there were a people perhaps amongst other people. In this thought 'amongst is the representation of a, lets say the term for now is tribe' these people built things and manufactured perhaps idealistic situations to support them. Such materials could be a bowl that would withstand the flames as to not crack all the time. A supporting roof that lasted a long time, a wheel for instance. These recommendations are through people, these people have names. For instance Noah is claimed to have lived 900 plus years. Could this venture be that the name Noah lived for this long along with the remedy of Noah. Getting back to to the prior of time when I described the creations of the wheel, roof, and bowl. These people were in a sense worshiped. This terming may have been used in a different way,"worshiped" for instance it may have been another term or perhaps even a feeling, and this could go on for a long period of time. Then there's schooling, this continues, again a term perhaps not used. Though in reference with schooling or a learning degree is the matter of usage. There were the young whom would do the things that were done and it would go over and over like this. Time has passed and many of these people would pass on. To remember these people it was a good reason to be associated with them through a degree, such as a reference. Perhaps this was a name of something. Now lets say through the years there were amongst these people a variety of names, perhaps to represent. What would be in conclusion to a society to reference a deity amongst them all and have the teachings go on through again another degree. This degree could be value or some form of category. Today we may call it a book or a descriptive allowance. I am now involved with all the names in this theory of time, and some small degree I am to relate it as a time of a beginning. A beginning amongst many and in sense to be of self. When in consideration of this organ-izational stance and even a maturity what would a or the recognition be. In Law we have "Law" In a Town we have "town' in Distance we have :Distance" and end we have 'end'. These representations are a conclusion of theory and or standard's. God may in retrospect represent the past present and future.
As well as a supernatural may represent a past present and future. The reason why is existence. What about the fact that if a child is caught under a vehicle and all of a sudden the parent gets a supernatural strength to save to child, whatever the case is, which perhaps would be an exertion, this would be a consideration of a supernatural phenomenon. I use "phenomenon because again that to has to be explained. Though in retrospect this supernatural exercise is of the past present and future, yet still. We have the existence of the person doing the extraordinary factor. The existence is somewhat allowing the capability. This could be a practice, or physical belonging of the person. Then we have the present and actuality of performance. Then we have the future, the explanation, all representing a supernatural situation. David George DeLancey ( talk) 21:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
end'
Why??? Seriously why??? Of all the hundreds of cultures and religions from human history which incorporated some aspect of supernatural beliefs into their worldview, why should Catholicism get such a disproportionate share of this article dedicated to it? Major NPOV violation here! SarrCat ∑;3 04:52, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it would have been easier. This article is a mess. Editor2020, Talk 02:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
There are a number of problems with this article as it exists currently, but the most glaring issue is the almost exclusive focus on supernaturalism is western culture/religion, the most blatant example of this being that the section on Catholicism makes up more than a third of the article, and no major or minor religion even gets so much as a sub-section!! The lead states that "Most religions include the supernatural", but why is there only a section on Catholicism? What about all the other religions? Even in the rest of the article, there is no information whatsoever about the supernatural elements of any eastern religions/philosophies, for example. Why have these been omitted, and what can be done to fix this? SarrCat ∑;3 17:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Sarr Cat, in view of the above (and any further comment which may subsequently come-in), I propose we modify the RfC you initiated to propose specific voting options that comport with these various alternatives. I will create a 3rd Level Heading below this line with what I see these options as representing (all feel free to comment/edit), and so that any additional comments along the lines above can be contributed to the discussion with a logical flow. -- UBI-et-ORBI ( talk) 23:30, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
A. Keep & Fix:
- Use tags to indicate to Wiki readers that the Article has content problems being addressed by editors. Actively engage community on repairing Article.
B. Keep & Fix with Guidelines:
- Same determination as in option A, however members of Talk Page discussion will formulate provisional guidelines for the repair of the Article based on consensus, and will hold all editors to these "Repair Guidelines" until all major tags are removed.
C. TNT:
- Per WP:TNT, remove all extant Article content and re-create Article in its entirety.
D. AfD:
- Remove Article from Wikipedia without specific recourse or design to re-create the Article.
E. Pure Keep:
- Keep Article on Wikipedia without specific recourse or design to ensure proper editing of the Article; allow editors to naturally contribute pursuant to WP Standard & Policies and MoS.
I think you guys are going to have to do most of the work here without me, I started this RFC back in summer, but school has started for me now, so I won't be able to pay attention to any wikipedia related things for a while, at least, not at the level I would have during summer. I hope you can get this sorted out without me though! SarrCat ∑;3 20:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Currently it's a bit of a mess. The religion section is incredibly incomplete, covering only two varieties of Christian religion (Catholicism and Process Theology) and nothing else. This article could also talk about supernatural theories for morality, abstract objects, and all sorts of things. I would think that the history of supernatural ideas is also rich enough that we don't need to stick to contemporary views, but could explore ideas that changed over time in different cultures (my preference would be to include examples where science found natural causes for the origin of life, the solar system, disease, etc.).
I think the 'scientific view' section in the ghost article is the kind of thing this article could have. There are certainly many citation worthy studies on how some supernatural beliefs are surely mistaken (stuff like agency over-detection, or even creationism), and I think there's a survey of professional philosophers that might show the general prevalence of certain supernatural philosophical theories (such as divine command theory, mind-body dualism, and certain forms of platonism, etc.). BrianPansky ( talk) 03:11, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The supernatural does not exist except amongst fantasists. Please provide proof otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2404:E800:EE1A:26:3CAE:886B:5C0E:7EA1 ( talk) 05:02, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Currently the opening paragraph is referenced to a 1910 article from the Harvard Theological Review ([ https://www.jstor.org/stable/1507012?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents this one). As you'd expect from an article over 100 years old and published by a theology journal, the focus is primarily on Christian theology. This is evidently part of the problem with this article. I'll do some digging around to see what I can find to replace it and reform it around something form, say, the last 50 years. :bloodofox: ( talk) 22:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I think we should probably look into some philosophy to provide context for the idea. Especially as supernaturalism is actually a school of thought mentioned in some parts of critical theory. jps ( talk) 23:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
What on earth is going on with this article? The idea of the supernatural has long been a topic of study for scholars (particularly in folklore studies) and human understanding of the natural has shifted and changed over time, yet this article seems to go out of its way to ignore these facts while fixating almost entirely on Christian mythology (just look at the subheaders).
So, instead of a sober history, discussion, and study of the concept of the supernatural, we get a list of stuff about angels and demons and deities. This makes for one of the very worst Wikipedia articles I've seen in a long time. I'm tagging it for not only presenting the material in a WP:PROFRINGE manner but also because it requires a totally need build from its foundation up. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:08, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Bloodofox: For reasons both myself and GliderMaven are unable to fathom, you have completely decimated the article. Your changes are unfounded, and neither supported by global nor local consensus. Yet you have accused both me and GliderMaven of edit-warring simply because we reverted them. Just for future reference: by all means, edit boldly, but don't throw your toys out the pram when your changes aren't accepted. Citizen Canine ( talk) 10:11, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I am a little amused by the above section, but I think it's descended into histrionics, so I'm just going to let it me known that Bloodofox's version is far superior to what was here before.
It is absolutely the case that the topic of the "supernatural" is not defined within the context of any particular religion and so to WP:WEIGHT this article in such a way is contrary to Wikipedia policy. Now, it may be that a small amount of content could be salvageable from previous versions, but it's necessarily going to be small and we need to be careful to follow best editorial practices. Fortunately, Wikipedia is equipped with an excellent "history" option that allows us to go back and look for previous versions.
What needs to happen at this page is WP:TNT. Bloodofox is doing great work in enacting this. I encourage the other users who want to argue for inclusion of particular content to make the case here for precise content they want to include. Then we can start to build the article that should exist.
jps ( talk) 10:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Please propose some sources for us to use and then we can argue about what the "common ways" this article should discuss matters. jps ( talk) 23:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
For the second time I have amended the caption under the image in the infobox.
I visited the article a couple of days ago and saw the caption One of the many supernatural acts attributed to Jesus, walking on water.
I amended the caption to An example of a supernatural act, Saint Peter attempting to walk on water saying in the edit summary that the François Boucher painting is of Peter, not Jesus. @ Citizen Canine: reverted me saying "No, they are both depicted, Jesus more prominently". That is POV OR.
The name of the painting in French is given as ''File:Saint Pierre tentant de marcher sur les eaux by François Boucher.jpg''. The file description says in English it is called Saint Peter Attempting to Walk on Water and in Spanish it is called San Pedro Tentando Caminar Sobre Agua.
Saint Peter all the way, as is "attempting" - tentant, and tentado.
Even our St Peter article does not support Citizen Canine's POV. It has the same image, and the caption says Saint Peter Attempting to Walk on Water, by François Boucher, 1766
The image also appears in 1766 in France, and again, the caption says Saint Peter Attempting to Walk on Water, by François Boucher, 1766
It also appears in Jesus walking on water, but doesn't mention walking on water by anyone!
Thought I had better give my reason for revert here, in light of the toing and froing in the article recently. Moriori ( talk) 02:53, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
As for your "Even if, for some insane reason, you want to deny that Jesus is present,.....", words fail me.
I think that since this image is causing such disagreements, we should change the image to something supernatural that is not religious or at least from another religious tradition. The article right now does not contain anything substantial on miracles. Maybe I can switch it out with something else. Huitzilopochtli1990 ( talk) 04:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)