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This article needs a lot of work. As of now, its sole purpose seems to be to vilify the Abkhazians. It's full of highly dubious claims (ritualistic cannibalism, huh?!?), which are not supported by any sources whatsoever (what a surprise). Hence the plethora of the {{ Fact}} tags. There was at least one instance of the article providing definitely false information: the Abkhazia's case is not under the ICC's investigation. Óðinn 06:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"...However a formal investigation has not yet been opened" It might behoove you to consult the sources before you suggest others do that. Óðinn 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Kober, please help me to insert the citations and they are from the following:
From Human Rights Watch and U.S. State Department, 1993-94.
The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others ... they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory...
155= U.S. State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 877, 881.
159= RFE/RL Daily Report, October 21, 1993.
Link to the relevant discussion. Alæxis ¿question? 17:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone explain me, which normal human beeing would ever come to the mind to denie a massacer where thousands of people were killed or driven out of Abkhazia ? Who is responsible for the disgusting Russian translation ?! TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 20:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 22:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
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I know it is a sensitive subject but I would expect at least an estimation on how many people killed. It would add some practical value to the article. We are editing an encyclopedia, after all. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.190 ( talk) 19:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
The following references were added in support of the statement "Civilian death toll ranging from several thousand to almost 30000": [2] [3] [4]. Actually all three of them mention the number 30,000 as an upper estimate of the number of casualties during the entire conflict:
“ | According to the Red Cross, the conflict claimed between 10,000 and 15,000 lives and left over 8000 wounded.[3] Other sources, emphasizing ethnic cleansing, cite the figure for deaths as between 25,000 and 30,000.[4] | ” |
“ | In the chaotic aftermath of defeat almost all ethnic Georgian population fled the region by sea or over the mountains escaping a large-scale ethnic cleansing initiated by the victors. Many thousands died — it is estimated that between 10,000-30,000 ethnic Georgians and 3,000 ethnic Abkhaz may have perished | ” |
“ | July 1993: Abkhaz forces break through Georgian lines and retake Sukhumi. Quickly pushing south, the Abkhaz militia reoccupies all of Abkhazia by the end of September 1993; with assistance, including air support, from the Russian military, which was officially neutral in the conflict. 10,000 - 30,000 ethnic Georgians are killed. | ” |
Clearly there were victims not only in Sukhumi, so these sources do not confirm the stated number of casualties. Among these three sources only the first one provides a reference for the given figures: [5], now located at [6]. Their source, in turn, is "Georgian government’s Committee on Human Rights and Interethnic Relations. Human Rights Watch interview with Committee Chairman Aleksandre Kavsadze, Tbilisi, 2 January 1995", cited from Georgia Abkhazia: Violations of the Laws of War and Russia’s Role in the Conflict, Human Rights Watch Arms Project, March 1995, Vol. 7, No. 7 p. 5. There's no separate estimate of casualties of Sukhumi massacre in the HRW report, they only write that "Some 50,000 of those fleeing came from Sukhumi".
Therefore I suggest to remove casualty numbers until reliable sources are found and write only that about the 50,000 fled Sukhumi in the aftermath of these events. Alæxis ¿question? 19:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm linking Talk:War_in_Abkhazia_(1992–1993)#Losses discussion. It appears that 25-30 thousand dead is the upper limit of the number of victims of the whole conflict for both sides. Alaexis ¿question? 14:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:27, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi. No objections raised to the principle of moving from the old title. If someone wants to change the scope of this article then they can see if that works and maybe propose a move to "Seige of..." later, but that isn't determined for certain by this RM so just sticking to what's there for now. — Amakuru ( talk) 14:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Sukhumi massacre →
Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi OR 1993 Fall of Sukhumi –
To summarise, there is no accepted name, and per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(events)#Conventions we should use one of the descriptive names I suggested. Alaexis ¿question? 23:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost ( talk) 10:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
HCPUNXKID, can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag?
Alaexis, can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag? The tag was added without explanation. What are you disputing? What specifically does not appear neutral? Thanks. ParticipantObserver ( talk) 17:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 27, 2012 and September 27, 2013. |
This article needs a lot of work. As of now, its sole purpose seems to be to vilify the Abkhazians. It's full of highly dubious claims (ritualistic cannibalism, huh?!?), which are not supported by any sources whatsoever (what a surprise). Hence the plethora of the {{ Fact}} tags. There was at least one instance of the article providing definitely false information: the Abkhazia's case is not under the ICC's investigation. Óðinn 06:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"...However a formal investigation has not yet been opened" It might behoove you to consult the sources before you suggest others do that. Óðinn 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Kober, please help me to insert the citations and they are from the following:
From Human Rights Watch and U.S. State Department, 1993-94.
The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others ... they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory...
155= U.S. State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 877, 881.
159= RFE/RL Daily Report, October 21, 1993.
Link to the relevant discussion. Alæxis ¿question? 17:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone explain me, which normal human beeing would ever come to the mind to denie a massacer where thousands of people were killed or driven out of Abkhazia ? Who is responsible for the disgusting Russian translation ?! TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 20:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 22:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Pravit.JPG, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 03:53, 26 October 2011 (UTC) |
I know it is a sensitive subject but I would expect at least an estimation on how many people killed. It would add some practical value to the article. We are editing an encyclopedia, after all. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.190 ( talk) 19:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
The following references were added in support of the statement "Civilian death toll ranging from several thousand to almost 30000": [2] [3] [4]. Actually all three of them mention the number 30,000 as an upper estimate of the number of casualties during the entire conflict:
“ | According to the Red Cross, the conflict claimed between 10,000 and 15,000 lives and left over 8000 wounded.[3] Other sources, emphasizing ethnic cleansing, cite the figure for deaths as between 25,000 and 30,000.[4] | ” |
“ | In the chaotic aftermath of defeat almost all ethnic Georgian population fled the region by sea or over the mountains escaping a large-scale ethnic cleansing initiated by the victors. Many thousands died — it is estimated that between 10,000-30,000 ethnic Georgians and 3,000 ethnic Abkhaz may have perished | ” |
“ | July 1993: Abkhaz forces break through Georgian lines and retake Sukhumi. Quickly pushing south, the Abkhaz militia reoccupies all of Abkhazia by the end of September 1993; with assistance, including air support, from the Russian military, which was officially neutral in the conflict. 10,000 - 30,000 ethnic Georgians are killed. | ” |
Clearly there were victims not only in Sukhumi, so these sources do not confirm the stated number of casualties. Among these three sources only the first one provides a reference for the given figures: [5], now located at [6]. Their source, in turn, is "Georgian government’s Committee on Human Rights and Interethnic Relations. Human Rights Watch interview with Committee Chairman Aleksandre Kavsadze, Tbilisi, 2 January 1995", cited from Georgia Abkhazia: Violations of the Laws of War and Russia’s Role in the Conflict, Human Rights Watch Arms Project, March 1995, Vol. 7, No. 7 p. 5. There's no separate estimate of casualties of Sukhumi massacre in the HRW report, they only write that "Some 50,000 of those fleeing came from Sukhumi".
Therefore I suggest to remove casualty numbers until reliable sources are found and write only that about the 50,000 fled Sukhumi in the aftermath of these events. Alæxis ¿question? 19:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm linking Talk:War_in_Abkhazia_(1992–1993)#Losses discussion. It appears that 25-30 thousand dead is the upper limit of the number of victims of the whole conflict for both sides. Alaexis ¿question? 14:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Sukhumi massacre. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:27, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi. No objections raised to the principle of moving from the old title. If someone wants to change the scope of this article then they can see if that works and maybe propose a move to "Seige of..." later, but that isn't determined for certain by this RM so just sticking to what's there for now. — Amakuru ( talk) 14:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Sukhumi massacre →
Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi OR 1993 Fall of Sukhumi –
To summarise, there is no accepted name, and per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(events)#Conventions we should use one of the descriptive names I suggested. Alaexis ¿question? 23:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost ( talk) 10:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
HCPUNXKID, can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag?
Alaexis, can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag? The tag was added without explanation. What are you disputing? What specifically does not appear neutral? Thanks. ParticipantObserver ( talk) 17:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)