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In 1997, Shidoshi Hayes, seeking more control over his students who were leaving him to train under Masaak Hatusmi, founded the martial art of To-Shin Do, an art based in his experience of budo taijutsu and life experiences.
Is there documentation on this? I don't mind leaving it if it can be substantiated, but if not, it's a rather substantial POV statement and should be reverted.-- MikeJ9919 20:04, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
This article has been replaced by something that is obviously copied from some external source for several times now. This whole thing needs independent references and checking for any violations of POV and AUTO guidelines. jni 10:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the claim that said Hayes was one of the world's foremost authorities on Buddhist studies. Buddhist studies is a branch of religious studies and to be considered an authority in such field would require one to publish dozens of articles in peer reviewed journals and write a few scholarly treatises. I don't think his books quite match any scholarly standards. I have not seen any indication of Mr. Hayes being anything other than a gifted practitioner of the arts, not their academic researcher.
I have also removed most references to an-shu, a some kind of title whose origins are unknown to me. Either it comes from esoteric Buddhism or is something he coined himself. It certainly is not a title commonly used in Japanese martial arts, so its meaning and origins should be researched for this article. jni 09:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I have, on several occassions edited this entry to correct the blatant lies left in it by questionable sources with dubious agendas. An-shu Hayes, I would assume, is the foremost authority on his own life story, and what I am posting is the only entry that has been reviewed and verified by him, and is supported as well by publically available media and publications.
I am working on a more "wikified" version, and until that is finished, out of respect for a living, breathing, person - I would appreciate it if you left this correct, if brief, version in place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jikaku ( talk • contribs)
Unverified claims in this article:
Well, pretty much everything else would benefit from additional sources. jni 09:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, some versions of this article could be thought of copyvios from [1]. The page says they give explicit permission for Wikipedia to reproduce this article, but that is not enough. Our articles must be freely licensable under GFDL to all interested parties, not just wikipedia.org. And of course that external page cannot be used verbatim because it is very much POV and its tone is inappropriate for use in encyclopedia. jni 10:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Greetings. I've been asked to have a look at the debate here (at least there is one!) and see if I can be of help. I'm glad you are discussing the things here, remembering our assume good faith policy. Hayes is a well known figure, and I don't see that we can't keep most of the info about him. We should have qualifying language for various claims and a more neutral presentation, though. This won't imply that whatever is said isn't true, but it's a larger style issue. In the world of martial arts (especially "secret" martial arts) usually the only source for their pre-20th century histories are the schools themselves. Look at some of out other martial arts bios and you'll see some examples of this. People who are well documented and well regarded, sensationalist martial arts movie stars and even, erm, "teachers" like Ashida Kim are given (or we try to give) what you could call "dry" entries. For instance, you can mention the person's title, but not every time you mention them by name. In conversation it is polite to, in an encyclopaedia bio it is redundant. When I have more time I will try to post a compromise article and see what everyone thinks. -- Fire Star 15:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The following text was added by User:12.210.27.45 :
Recently, Stephen K. Hayes was expelled from Bujinkan by Grandmaster Hatsumi and stripped of Shihan status, and is no longer allowed to associate himself with ninjutsu.
That's a pretty bold statement and one which obviously needs a source for it to stay in the article. Lawyer2b 04:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm a former student of Hayes from the late 1980s, and I invite any moderator to email me privately to verify my credentials and original documents. I can speak confidentally on SKH's being stripped of his Shihan title from Grandmaster Hatsumi. Hatsumi and Hayes were inseparable in those days, with SKH flying monthly to Japan to see his Master. While SKH never missed an opportunity to have a photo taken with Hatsumi, there seem to be no recent photos of Hatsumi and Hayes. Let me explain:
Hayes was an outstanding teacher and one of the most learned Martial Artists I've ever met (paradoxically, he is a very private man). During the time of Hayes and the spread of Ninjutsu, a cult seemed to have sprung up around Hayes. Things were great for SKH until the annual Shadows of Iga festival held at Camp Campbell Gard (sic) in Hamilton Ohio on September 4-9, 1987. This was the 7th festival SKH had held. People from all over had mailed in $250 to go the the festival. But when we got there, we were told at the registration desk that we had to cough up an additional $100 because Grandmaster Hatsumi was there with three of his black belts.
The registration desk was manned by a member of SKH's inner circle, Cpl Brin Morgan of the British Royal Marines. Despite the fact that many of us had come from all over the world to be here, Cpl Morgan brusquely told us that anyone who didn't have the extra cash on them had to go home. The demands of the extra $100 went very badly on many of us (about 230 were in attendance, typical for the festival, many had saved months to get there). To make matters worse, the first night in the auditorium Hayes told us that we were forbidden to take pictures of Hatsumi, and were enouraged to purchase official photographs instead. (Many people were angry at our treatment by SKH, and there were many thefts, including wallets and even SKH's Ninjutsu flag.)
On Sunday evening, September 6th, there was a Q&A with Grandmaster Hatsumi. At that time Grandmaster Hatsumi spoke, through his translator (SKH's wife) at great length AGAINST obtaining a blackbelt solely via videotapes. He was particularly passionate on this subject (Hatsumi then told us that his own videotapes had deliberate errors in the techniques so force people to attend his seminars, which also went over very badly with the crowd).
In 2004, SKH started selling a DVD set on his website which, on completion, would earn someone a black belt in Ninjutsu. There seem to be no later photos of SKH with Grandmaster Hatsumi after this time. It is also after the DVD blackbelt was released that SKH stopped calling himself Shihan, or a Ninja, or even claiming to have a present black belt in Nunjutsu, and instead started using the obscure An-shu.
In order for Stephen K. Hayes to call himself a ninja, a Shihan or claim to have a present black-belt ranking, requires the consent of Grandmaster Hatsumi, both traditionally and legally. If Grandmaster Hatsumi stripped SKH's Shihan status, that's like the AMA stripping a doctor of his credentials - the man can no longer call himself a doctor, practice medicine, or use Dr. before his name.
I've heard that the truth is that Grandmaster Hatsumi had a final falling out with SKH in 2006 and stripped him of Shihan status, and SKH is no longer allowed to associate himself with Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Masaaki Hatsumi, partially because of the DVD blackbelt (there are also rumors that Grandmaster Hatsumi demanded and was denied royalties for SKH's present teachings. While I don't have direct knowledge of this, SKH and Grandmaster Hatsumi were clearly financially linked from the first time they met). SKH can not and does not call his system Ninjutsu, but now calls his system To-Shin Do. He can not, and does not, refer to himself as a black belt. Most importantly, he can not and does not call himself Shihan, and now uses An-shu.
While SKH's marketing materials always heavily emphasized his existing relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi, his present materials only refer to his past relationship.
There is a page on his website that is very defensive of his relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi. At the very end of this page, SKH mentions his banishment rumors but never says that he is a present student of Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi, nor does he say the rumors are false. SKH does not directly call himself a black belt, but most importantly he does not directly call himself Shihan - that's like an M.D. not calling himself a doctor!
It's very clear to anyone that has known SKH personally, that his website also proves that Grandmaster Hatsumi has stripped Hayes of his ability to teach Bujinkan Ninjutsu and that Hayes, unfortunately, is no longer a Shihan.
From a grander perspective, this does not take away from Hayes' style or skill. It's more of a marketing setback for Steve.
As an aside - in 1986, SKH started WIN, the Warrior Information Network. This was to be a confidential mailing list for all members to communicate with. Membership was $7.50 for a lifetime membership, and we were allowed to use aliases. After emphasising the confidentiality of the information, SKH sold his list of names in 1989 and many of us started getting mailing adverts for martial arts magazines and equipment under our alias, which further upset his students. This, along with a few other incidents, including people not being mailed their belt diplomas, contributed to a lack of trust in SKH and enrollment in his events plummeted. The Shadows of Iga festival was finally cancelled in 1989 due to lack of interest and SKH's career as a mass market martial arts trainer ended. -- Corwin8 23:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm a former student of Hayes from the late 1980s, and I invite any moderator to email me privately to verify my credentials and original documents. I can speak confidentally on SKH's being stripped of his Shihan title from Grandmaster Hatsumi. Hatsumi and Hayes were inseparable in those days, with SKH flying monthly to Japan to see his Master. While SKH never missed an opportunity to have a photo taken with Hatsumi,
there seem to be no recent photos of Hatsumi and Hayes.
Let me explain:
Hayes was an outstanding teacher and one of the most learned Martial Artists I've ever met (paradoxically, he is a very private man).
During the time of Hayes and the spread of Ninjutsu, a cult seemed to have sprung up around Hayes.
Things were great for SKH until the annual Shadows of Iga festival held at Camp Campbell Gard (sic) in Hamilton Ohio on September 4-9, 1987.
This was the 7th festival SKH had held. People from all over had mailed in $250 to go the the festival. But when we got there, we were told at the registration desk that we had to cough up an additional $100 because Grandmaster Hatsumi was there with three of his black belts.
The registration desk was manned by a member of SKH's inner circle, Cpl Brin Morgan of the British Royal Marines. Despite the fact that many of us had come from all over the world to be here, Cpl Morgan brusquely told us that anyone who didn't have the extra cash on them had to go home. The demands of the extra $100 went very badly on many of us (about 230 were in attendance, typical for the festival, many had saved months to get there). To make matters worse, the first night in the auditorium Hayes told us that we were forbidden to take pictures of Hatsumi, and were enouraged to purchase official photographs instead. (Many people were angry at our treatment by SKH, and there were many thefts, including wallets and even SKH's Ninjutsu flag.)
On Sunday evening, September 6th, there was a Q&A with Grandmaster Hatsumi. At that time Grandmaster Hatsumi spoke, through his translator (SKH's wife) at great length AGAINST obtaining a blackbelt solely via videotapes. He was particularly passionate on this subject (Hatsumi then told us that his own videotapes had deliberate errors in the techniques so force people to attend his seminars, which also went over very badly with the crowd).
In 2004, SKH started selling a DVD set on his website which, on completion, would earn someone a black belt in Ninjutsu.
There seem to be no later photos of SKH with Grandmaster Hatsumi after this time.
It is also after the DVD blackbelt was released that SKH stopped calling himself Shihan, or a Ninja, or even claiming to have a present black belt in Nunjutsu, and instead started using the obscure An-shu.
In order for Stephen K. Hayes to call himself a ninja, a Shihan or claim to have a present black-belt ranking, requires the consent of Grandmaster Hatsumi, both traditionally and legally.
If Grandmaster Hatsumi stripped SKH's Shihan status, that's like the AMA stripping a doctor of his credentials - the man can no longer call himself a doctor, practice medicine, or use Dr. before his name.
I've heard that the truth is that Grandmaster Hatsumi had a final falling out with SKH in 2006 and stripped him of Shihan status, and SKH is no longer allowed to associate himself with Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Masaaki Hatsumi, partially because of the DVD blackbelt (there are also rumors that Grandmaster Hatsumi demanded and was denied royalties for SKH's present teachings. While I don't have direct knowledge of this, SKH and Grandmaster Hatsumi were clearly financially linked from the first time they met).
SKH can not and does not call his system Ninjutsu, but now calls his system To-Shin Do. He can not, and does not, refer to himself as a black belt.
Most importantly, he can not and does not call himself Shihan, and now uses An-shu.
While SKH's marketing materials always heavily emphasized his existing relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi, his present materials only refer to his past relationship.
There is a page on his website that is very defensive of his relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi.
At the very end of this page, SKH mentions his banishment rumors but never says that he is a present student of Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi, nor does he say the rumors are false.
SKH does not directly call himself a black belt, but most importantly he does not directly call himself Shihan - that's like an M.D. not calling himself a doctor!
It's very clear to anyone that has known SKH personally, that his website also proves that Grandmaster Hatsumi has stripped Hayes of his ability to teach Bujinkan Ninjutsu and that Hayes, unfortunately, is no longer a Shihan.
From a grander perspective, this does not take away from Hayes' style or skill. It's more of a marketing setback for Steve.
As an aside - in 1986, SKH started WIN, the Warrior Information Network. This was to be a confidential mailing list for all members to communicate with. Membership was $7.50 for a lifetime membership, and we were allowed to use aliases. After emphasising the confidentiality of the information, SKH sold his list of names in 1989 and many of us started getting mailing adverts for martial arts magazines and equipment under our alias, which further upset his students. This, along with a few other incidents, including people not being mailed their belt diplomas, contributed to a lack of trust in SKH and enrollment in his events plummeted. The Shadows of Iga festival was finally cancelled in 1989 due to lack of interest and SKH's career as a mass market martial arts trainer ended. -- Corwin8 23:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Corwin8 insists on adding information that is simple a re-hash of material already on the page (Hatsumi having Hayes' placard removed from the judan board) only through his assumption of just what that action meant; as well as patently false statement regarding selling an "instructional DVD set that would let someone become a black belt in Ninjutsu." I don't know he/she is intentionally lying, or honestly thinks that what the To-Shin Do DVD program is... but it doesn't matter, either way this person is wrong and their misinformation needs to stop.
I'm taking out the "interpretive" text (let's stick to the facts, and not our interpretation of what those facts might or might not mean - see Rustedshuriken's comments of 25 May) as well as the false information regarding the DVD "Black Belt Issue."
Finally - the diatribe here on the discussion page is little more than a rant against Mr. Hayes, filled with unverifiable information, speculation, and hearsay. Certainly this person is entitled to their opinion... but is this the forum to air it? -- Jikaku
Not sure what you're taking as a "personal attack" here - I'm simply correcting the two pieces of information you're placing in the bio. And considering that this information is either a) easily verifiable as incorrect (note - saying you're incorrect is not an "attack") as in the case of the DVD program, or b) interpretive and inflammatory, and not yet explicitly verified... AND already dealt with in the article (bujinkan relationship) - my edits are *not* violations of the 3RR rule:
"Potentially libellous material - All users are encouraged to remove any unsourced or poorly sourced derogatory information present on a biography of a living person or the associated talk page. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection. The three-revert rule does not apply to users making a good-faith effort to enforce this provision on articles where they are not already involved in a content dispute." Jikaku 14:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't want to get involved in this war (who the heck would?) but some important points not being said, and I believe the wrong person under investigation by the admins. Corwin8, by my analysis you made the following significant changes in your original edits of this article on June 19, 00:35-40, interspliced with my own commentary
1. removed the title "Grandmaster" from Masaaki Hatsumi's name
2. asserted that Stephen K. Hayes set off the ninja boom of the 80's "with his close friend Bud Malmstrom"
3. rearranged the list of American budoka so as to put Bud Malmstrom before Jack Hoban.
4. switched the wording "Hayes earned the judan" -> "Hayes was awarded the judan"
5. added the title "Grandmaster" to Hatsumi's name later in the article
6. inserted the paragraph which claims
Simply stating these 'facts' does not make them true. Jikaku felt (as I did and still do) that you need to do a better job of backing them up these claims with verifiable sources. A personal story does not count: that's original research. -- Rustedshuriken 08:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
RE: Hatsumi and "Grandmaster" (#1 and #5)
RE: Bud Malmstrom (#2 and #3)
RE: earned -> awarded (#4)
RE: expulsion, and reason for such
Anyone else? KillerChihuahua ?!? 16:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I have some questions, I will start with two:
KillerChihuahua ?!? 06:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there's a consensus (however small) of at least two editors and one admin that Corwin8's contributions are at a minimum OR, and therefore don't belong in this article. If Corwin8 can agree to stop inserting them (unless/until there are cited sources, of course), or any other POV/OR material, we can probably end this fairly easily, no? -- Jikaku 18:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The forum posts are going to have to go, too. Corwin8, please limit yourself to specifying what parts of the article are unreferenced, and which references are unacceptable. Cease such adversarial comments as "Regardless of your insults" they are non-productive. Thanks - KillerChihuahua ?!? 21:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Clarification question for KillerChihuahua - did I (Jikaku) *need* to be reported for a 3RR violation? I've contended that I haven't, in fact, violated the 3RR, referring to: "Potentially libellous material - All users are encouraged to remove any unsourced or poorly sourced derogatory information present on a biography of a living person or the associated talk page. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection."
This is why *I* originally requested (and received) the full-page protection for this article.
Also for KillerChihuahua - when you said to Corwin8 "please limit yourself to specifying what parts of the article are unreferenced, and which references are unacceptable." - did you mean to address that to me, or...?
I don't believe Corwin8's complaint was that there were unreferenced things in/being added to the article, or that current references were unacceptable - rather, *he* was adding material that people (me included) were viewing as either un-referenced, OR, or POV and then removing them (with comments here, and on his talk page). His complaint was that this material *was* being removed. Or have I missed something? -- Jikaku 03:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to jump in to this discussion. I'm the user that originally added the links and text discussing the incident at the Hombu dojo (4.21.128.2). Jikaku and Corwin8's disagreements aside, I feel that an additional edit from a NPOV would be helpful to the article. I would propose the addition of the following text:
According to Shihan Richard Van Donk, Soke Hatsumi, in response to an inquiry relating to the issuance of diplomas by Stephen Hayes, stated that "Stephen Hayes has not really been a Bujinkan member for many, many years (he has not paid any Shidoshi-kai fees, nor has done much training with us) and Steve has created his own system of Toshindo and has really left the Bujinkan by his actions."
The source for this statement would be the following post made on Van Donk's forum:
http://www.ninjutsuforum.com/showpost.php?p=1691&postcount=14
Added new information from SKH Website regarding receiving bujinkan rank certificates (this would go towards establishing whether Mr. Hayes is "in" or "out" with the Bujinkan, I assume, as someone "kicked out" would no longer be authorized to give rank in the org). I've personally verified this with students in Dayton who have received the certificates - is this tentatively "good enough" for inclusion, or should more follow-up work be done before this information was included? --
Jikaku
03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone confirmed with Masaaki Hatsumi in Japan that he is issuing certificates to Stephen Hayes? And are we sure that the certificates that Hayes passes out are genuine and he recieved them, and not someone else that passed it on to him? If no one has contacted Hatsumi, then to be totally factual you can't point to this as any sort of "proof." There is the very real possibility that one of the many Toshindo black belts who also hold instructor's rank in the Bujinkan pick up the certificates for him while in Japan.
What is the situation here? I protected, but the talk page went virtually silent. If I unprotect, will edit wars start again? If you wish to proceed from a protected status, then start entering disputed content and suggested edits for discussion. Let me know which way you wish to proceed. IMHO, all unsourced and poorly sourced content should be removed or sourced, for a start. KillerChihuahua ?!? 11:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, it became pretty obvious to me that I don't have the experience to compete with the bullying, flames, and insults I received here. I did post references from the Internet Archives that SKH is selling diplomas, and you guys completely ignored it. I'm trying to learn more so that I can compete with the lifers here. But when I called Jikaku on the 3RRR rule, and no one took me up on it, I just realized that experience does not count here. On the upside, I am having an article published on my experiences in Ninjutsu based on some of the material I mentioned here. Assuming that you will let me reference a print publication - this issue will receive publicity. -- Corwin8 19:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
For some reason, user "124.155.12.239" continues to delete the section of this article that he doesn't happen to like - while refusing to discuss the matter at all, though he's been asked to address this on this talk page by two people now. What's to be done? -- 8.8.197.169 14:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the addition about diplomas. I don't see how the text is relevant to SKH's status in the Bujinkan. The conclusion accompanying the text is pure speculation. Speculation that Hatsumi expelled SKH for selling black belts by video was rightfully removed. By the same token, speculation that SKH is still "in" the Bujinkan should also be removed. Dammokles 15:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It does seem though that the non-speculative receipt of the diplomas should stay - no? Just like the removal of the placard at Noda stayed - while the speculation around its meaning was removed.
I agree with you - I'll add back the bare facts, minus the speculation. -- Jikaku 00:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed - I edited the section to add the facts about the diplomas at the end of the section, though. It places them in better context. Dammokles 15:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
He looks just like Terry Pratchett ! Magic Pickle 16:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In 1997, Shidoshi Hayes, seeking more control over his students who were leaving him to train under Masaak Hatusmi, founded the martial art of To-Shin Do, an art based in his experience of budo taijutsu and life experiences.
Is there documentation on this? I don't mind leaving it if it can be substantiated, but if not, it's a rather substantial POV statement and should be reverted.-- MikeJ9919 20:04, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
This article has been replaced by something that is obviously copied from some external source for several times now. This whole thing needs independent references and checking for any violations of POV and AUTO guidelines. jni 10:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the claim that said Hayes was one of the world's foremost authorities on Buddhist studies. Buddhist studies is a branch of religious studies and to be considered an authority in such field would require one to publish dozens of articles in peer reviewed journals and write a few scholarly treatises. I don't think his books quite match any scholarly standards. I have not seen any indication of Mr. Hayes being anything other than a gifted practitioner of the arts, not their academic researcher.
I have also removed most references to an-shu, a some kind of title whose origins are unknown to me. Either it comes from esoteric Buddhism or is something he coined himself. It certainly is not a title commonly used in Japanese martial arts, so its meaning and origins should be researched for this article. jni 09:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I have, on several occassions edited this entry to correct the blatant lies left in it by questionable sources with dubious agendas. An-shu Hayes, I would assume, is the foremost authority on his own life story, and what I am posting is the only entry that has been reviewed and verified by him, and is supported as well by publically available media and publications.
I am working on a more "wikified" version, and until that is finished, out of respect for a living, breathing, person - I would appreciate it if you left this correct, if brief, version in place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jikaku ( talk • contribs)
Unverified claims in this article:
Well, pretty much everything else would benefit from additional sources. jni 09:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, some versions of this article could be thought of copyvios from [1]. The page says they give explicit permission for Wikipedia to reproduce this article, but that is not enough. Our articles must be freely licensable under GFDL to all interested parties, not just wikipedia.org. And of course that external page cannot be used verbatim because it is very much POV and its tone is inappropriate for use in encyclopedia. jni 10:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Greetings. I've been asked to have a look at the debate here (at least there is one!) and see if I can be of help. I'm glad you are discussing the things here, remembering our assume good faith policy. Hayes is a well known figure, and I don't see that we can't keep most of the info about him. We should have qualifying language for various claims and a more neutral presentation, though. This won't imply that whatever is said isn't true, but it's a larger style issue. In the world of martial arts (especially "secret" martial arts) usually the only source for their pre-20th century histories are the schools themselves. Look at some of out other martial arts bios and you'll see some examples of this. People who are well documented and well regarded, sensationalist martial arts movie stars and even, erm, "teachers" like Ashida Kim are given (or we try to give) what you could call "dry" entries. For instance, you can mention the person's title, but not every time you mention them by name. In conversation it is polite to, in an encyclopaedia bio it is redundant. When I have more time I will try to post a compromise article and see what everyone thinks. -- Fire Star 15:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The following text was added by User:12.210.27.45 :
Recently, Stephen K. Hayes was expelled from Bujinkan by Grandmaster Hatsumi and stripped of Shihan status, and is no longer allowed to associate himself with ninjutsu.
That's a pretty bold statement and one which obviously needs a source for it to stay in the article. Lawyer2b 04:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm a former student of Hayes from the late 1980s, and I invite any moderator to email me privately to verify my credentials and original documents. I can speak confidentally on SKH's being stripped of his Shihan title from Grandmaster Hatsumi. Hatsumi and Hayes were inseparable in those days, with SKH flying monthly to Japan to see his Master. While SKH never missed an opportunity to have a photo taken with Hatsumi, there seem to be no recent photos of Hatsumi and Hayes. Let me explain:
Hayes was an outstanding teacher and one of the most learned Martial Artists I've ever met (paradoxically, he is a very private man). During the time of Hayes and the spread of Ninjutsu, a cult seemed to have sprung up around Hayes. Things were great for SKH until the annual Shadows of Iga festival held at Camp Campbell Gard (sic) in Hamilton Ohio on September 4-9, 1987. This was the 7th festival SKH had held. People from all over had mailed in $250 to go the the festival. But when we got there, we were told at the registration desk that we had to cough up an additional $100 because Grandmaster Hatsumi was there with three of his black belts.
The registration desk was manned by a member of SKH's inner circle, Cpl Brin Morgan of the British Royal Marines. Despite the fact that many of us had come from all over the world to be here, Cpl Morgan brusquely told us that anyone who didn't have the extra cash on them had to go home. The demands of the extra $100 went very badly on many of us (about 230 were in attendance, typical for the festival, many had saved months to get there). To make matters worse, the first night in the auditorium Hayes told us that we were forbidden to take pictures of Hatsumi, and were enouraged to purchase official photographs instead. (Many people were angry at our treatment by SKH, and there were many thefts, including wallets and even SKH's Ninjutsu flag.)
On Sunday evening, September 6th, there was a Q&A with Grandmaster Hatsumi. At that time Grandmaster Hatsumi spoke, through his translator (SKH's wife) at great length AGAINST obtaining a blackbelt solely via videotapes. He was particularly passionate on this subject (Hatsumi then told us that his own videotapes had deliberate errors in the techniques so force people to attend his seminars, which also went over very badly with the crowd).
In 2004, SKH started selling a DVD set on his website which, on completion, would earn someone a black belt in Ninjutsu. There seem to be no later photos of SKH with Grandmaster Hatsumi after this time. It is also after the DVD blackbelt was released that SKH stopped calling himself Shihan, or a Ninja, or even claiming to have a present black belt in Nunjutsu, and instead started using the obscure An-shu.
In order for Stephen K. Hayes to call himself a ninja, a Shihan or claim to have a present black-belt ranking, requires the consent of Grandmaster Hatsumi, both traditionally and legally. If Grandmaster Hatsumi stripped SKH's Shihan status, that's like the AMA stripping a doctor of his credentials - the man can no longer call himself a doctor, practice medicine, or use Dr. before his name.
I've heard that the truth is that Grandmaster Hatsumi had a final falling out with SKH in 2006 and stripped him of Shihan status, and SKH is no longer allowed to associate himself with Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Masaaki Hatsumi, partially because of the DVD blackbelt (there are also rumors that Grandmaster Hatsumi demanded and was denied royalties for SKH's present teachings. While I don't have direct knowledge of this, SKH and Grandmaster Hatsumi were clearly financially linked from the first time they met). SKH can not and does not call his system Ninjutsu, but now calls his system To-Shin Do. He can not, and does not, refer to himself as a black belt. Most importantly, he can not and does not call himself Shihan, and now uses An-shu.
While SKH's marketing materials always heavily emphasized his existing relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi, his present materials only refer to his past relationship.
There is a page on his website that is very defensive of his relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi. At the very end of this page, SKH mentions his banishment rumors but never says that he is a present student of Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi, nor does he say the rumors are false. SKH does not directly call himself a black belt, but most importantly he does not directly call himself Shihan - that's like an M.D. not calling himself a doctor!
It's very clear to anyone that has known SKH personally, that his website also proves that Grandmaster Hatsumi has stripped Hayes of his ability to teach Bujinkan Ninjutsu and that Hayes, unfortunately, is no longer a Shihan.
From a grander perspective, this does not take away from Hayes' style or skill. It's more of a marketing setback for Steve.
As an aside - in 1986, SKH started WIN, the Warrior Information Network. This was to be a confidential mailing list for all members to communicate with. Membership was $7.50 for a lifetime membership, and we were allowed to use aliases. After emphasising the confidentiality of the information, SKH sold his list of names in 1989 and many of us started getting mailing adverts for martial arts magazines and equipment under our alias, which further upset his students. This, along with a few other incidents, including people not being mailed their belt diplomas, contributed to a lack of trust in SKH and enrollment in his events plummeted. The Shadows of Iga festival was finally cancelled in 1989 due to lack of interest and SKH's career as a mass market martial arts trainer ended. -- Corwin8 23:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm a former student of Hayes from the late 1980s, and I invite any moderator to email me privately to verify my credentials and original documents. I can speak confidentally on SKH's being stripped of his Shihan title from Grandmaster Hatsumi. Hatsumi and Hayes were inseparable in those days, with SKH flying monthly to Japan to see his Master. While SKH never missed an opportunity to have a photo taken with Hatsumi,
there seem to be no recent photos of Hatsumi and Hayes.
Let me explain:
Hayes was an outstanding teacher and one of the most learned Martial Artists I've ever met (paradoxically, he is a very private man).
During the time of Hayes and the spread of Ninjutsu, a cult seemed to have sprung up around Hayes.
Things were great for SKH until the annual Shadows of Iga festival held at Camp Campbell Gard (sic) in Hamilton Ohio on September 4-9, 1987.
This was the 7th festival SKH had held. People from all over had mailed in $250 to go the the festival. But when we got there, we were told at the registration desk that we had to cough up an additional $100 because Grandmaster Hatsumi was there with three of his black belts.
The registration desk was manned by a member of SKH's inner circle, Cpl Brin Morgan of the British Royal Marines. Despite the fact that many of us had come from all over the world to be here, Cpl Morgan brusquely told us that anyone who didn't have the extra cash on them had to go home. The demands of the extra $100 went very badly on many of us (about 230 were in attendance, typical for the festival, many had saved months to get there). To make matters worse, the first night in the auditorium Hayes told us that we were forbidden to take pictures of Hatsumi, and were enouraged to purchase official photographs instead. (Many people were angry at our treatment by SKH, and there were many thefts, including wallets and even SKH's Ninjutsu flag.)
On Sunday evening, September 6th, there was a Q&A with Grandmaster Hatsumi. At that time Grandmaster Hatsumi spoke, through his translator (SKH's wife) at great length AGAINST obtaining a blackbelt solely via videotapes. He was particularly passionate on this subject (Hatsumi then told us that his own videotapes had deliberate errors in the techniques so force people to attend his seminars, which also went over very badly with the crowd).
In 2004, SKH started selling a DVD set on his website which, on completion, would earn someone a black belt in Ninjutsu.
There seem to be no later photos of SKH with Grandmaster Hatsumi after this time.
It is also after the DVD blackbelt was released that SKH stopped calling himself Shihan, or a Ninja, or even claiming to have a present black belt in Nunjutsu, and instead started using the obscure An-shu.
In order for Stephen K. Hayes to call himself a ninja, a Shihan or claim to have a present black-belt ranking, requires the consent of Grandmaster Hatsumi, both traditionally and legally.
If Grandmaster Hatsumi stripped SKH's Shihan status, that's like the AMA stripping a doctor of his credentials - the man can no longer call himself a doctor, practice medicine, or use Dr. before his name.
I've heard that the truth is that Grandmaster Hatsumi had a final falling out with SKH in 2006 and stripped him of Shihan status, and SKH is no longer allowed to associate himself with Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Masaaki Hatsumi, partially because of the DVD blackbelt (there are also rumors that Grandmaster Hatsumi demanded and was denied royalties for SKH's present teachings. While I don't have direct knowledge of this, SKH and Grandmaster Hatsumi were clearly financially linked from the first time they met).
SKH can not and does not call his system Ninjutsu, but now calls his system To-Shin Do. He can not, and does not, refer to himself as a black belt.
Most importantly, he can not and does not call himself Shihan, and now uses An-shu.
While SKH's marketing materials always heavily emphasized his existing relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi, his present materials only refer to his past relationship.
There is a page on his website that is very defensive of his relationship with Grandmaster Hatsumi.
At the very end of this page, SKH mentions his banishment rumors but never says that he is a present student of Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi, nor does he say the rumors are false.
SKH does not directly call himself a black belt, but most importantly he does not directly call himself Shihan - that's like an M.D. not calling himself a doctor!
It's very clear to anyone that has known SKH personally, that his website also proves that Grandmaster Hatsumi has stripped Hayes of his ability to teach Bujinkan Ninjutsu and that Hayes, unfortunately, is no longer a Shihan.
From a grander perspective, this does not take away from Hayes' style or skill. It's more of a marketing setback for Steve.
As an aside - in 1986, SKH started WIN, the Warrior Information Network. This was to be a confidential mailing list for all members to communicate with. Membership was $7.50 for a lifetime membership, and we were allowed to use aliases. After emphasising the confidentiality of the information, SKH sold his list of names in 1989 and many of us started getting mailing adverts for martial arts magazines and equipment under our alias, which further upset his students. This, along with a few other incidents, including people not being mailed their belt diplomas, contributed to a lack of trust in SKH and enrollment in his events plummeted. The Shadows of Iga festival was finally cancelled in 1989 due to lack of interest and SKH's career as a mass market martial arts trainer ended. -- Corwin8 23:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Corwin8 insists on adding information that is simple a re-hash of material already on the page (Hatsumi having Hayes' placard removed from the judan board) only through his assumption of just what that action meant; as well as patently false statement regarding selling an "instructional DVD set that would let someone become a black belt in Ninjutsu." I don't know he/she is intentionally lying, or honestly thinks that what the To-Shin Do DVD program is... but it doesn't matter, either way this person is wrong and their misinformation needs to stop.
I'm taking out the "interpretive" text (let's stick to the facts, and not our interpretation of what those facts might or might not mean - see Rustedshuriken's comments of 25 May) as well as the false information regarding the DVD "Black Belt Issue."
Finally - the diatribe here on the discussion page is little more than a rant against Mr. Hayes, filled with unverifiable information, speculation, and hearsay. Certainly this person is entitled to their opinion... but is this the forum to air it? -- Jikaku
Not sure what you're taking as a "personal attack" here - I'm simply correcting the two pieces of information you're placing in the bio. And considering that this information is either a) easily verifiable as incorrect (note - saying you're incorrect is not an "attack") as in the case of the DVD program, or b) interpretive and inflammatory, and not yet explicitly verified... AND already dealt with in the article (bujinkan relationship) - my edits are *not* violations of the 3RR rule:
"Potentially libellous material - All users are encouraged to remove any unsourced or poorly sourced derogatory information present on a biography of a living person or the associated talk page. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection. The three-revert rule does not apply to users making a good-faith effort to enforce this provision on articles where they are not already involved in a content dispute." Jikaku 14:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't want to get involved in this war (who the heck would?) but some important points not being said, and I believe the wrong person under investigation by the admins. Corwin8, by my analysis you made the following significant changes in your original edits of this article on June 19, 00:35-40, interspliced with my own commentary
1. removed the title "Grandmaster" from Masaaki Hatsumi's name
2. asserted that Stephen K. Hayes set off the ninja boom of the 80's "with his close friend Bud Malmstrom"
3. rearranged the list of American budoka so as to put Bud Malmstrom before Jack Hoban.
4. switched the wording "Hayes earned the judan" -> "Hayes was awarded the judan"
5. added the title "Grandmaster" to Hatsumi's name later in the article
6. inserted the paragraph which claims
Simply stating these 'facts' does not make them true. Jikaku felt (as I did and still do) that you need to do a better job of backing them up these claims with verifiable sources. A personal story does not count: that's original research. -- Rustedshuriken 08:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
RE: Hatsumi and "Grandmaster" (#1 and #5)
RE: Bud Malmstrom (#2 and #3)
RE: earned -> awarded (#4)
RE: expulsion, and reason for such
Anyone else? KillerChihuahua ?!? 16:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I have some questions, I will start with two:
KillerChihuahua ?!? 06:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there's a consensus (however small) of at least two editors and one admin that Corwin8's contributions are at a minimum OR, and therefore don't belong in this article. If Corwin8 can agree to stop inserting them (unless/until there are cited sources, of course), or any other POV/OR material, we can probably end this fairly easily, no? -- Jikaku 18:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The forum posts are going to have to go, too. Corwin8, please limit yourself to specifying what parts of the article are unreferenced, and which references are unacceptable. Cease such adversarial comments as "Regardless of your insults" they are non-productive. Thanks - KillerChihuahua ?!? 21:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Clarification question for KillerChihuahua - did I (Jikaku) *need* to be reported for a 3RR violation? I've contended that I haven't, in fact, violated the 3RR, referring to: "Potentially libellous material - All users are encouraged to remove any unsourced or poorly sourced derogatory information present on a biography of a living person or the associated talk page. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection."
This is why *I* originally requested (and received) the full-page protection for this article.
Also for KillerChihuahua - when you said to Corwin8 "please limit yourself to specifying what parts of the article are unreferenced, and which references are unacceptable." - did you mean to address that to me, or...?
I don't believe Corwin8's complaint was that there were unreferenced things in/being added to the article, or that current references were unacceptable - rather, *he* was adding material that people (me included) were viewing as either un-referenced, OR, or POV and then removing them (with comments here, and on his talk page). His complaint was that this material *was* being removed. Or have I missed something? -- Jikaku 03:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to jump in to this discussion. I'm the user that originally added the links and text discussing the incident at the Hombu dojo (4.21.128.2). Jikaku and Corwin8's disagreements aside, I feel that an additional edit from a NPOV would be helpful to the article. I would propose the addition of the following text:
According to Shihan Richard Van Donk, Soke Hatsumi, in response to an inquiry relating to the issuance of diplomas by Stephen Hayes, stated that "Stephen Hayes has not really been a Bujinkan member for many, many years (he has not paid any Shidoshi-kai fees, nor has done much training with us) and Steve has created his own system of Toshindo and has really left the Bujinkan by his actions."
The source for this statement would be the following post made on Van Donk's forum:
http://www.ninjutsuforum.com/showpost.php?p=1691&postcount=14
Added new information from SKH Website regarding receiving bujinkan rank certificates (this would go towards establishing whether Mr. Hayes is "in" or "out" with the Bujinkan, I assume, as someone "kicked out" would no longer be authorized to give rank in the org). I've personally verified this with students in Dayton who have received the certificates - is this tentatively "good enough" for inclusion, or should more follow-up work be done before this information was included? --
Jikaku
03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone confirmed with Masaaki Hatsumi in Japan that he is issuing certificates to Stephen Hayes? And are we sure that the certificates that Hayes passes out are genuine and he recieved them, and not someone else that passed it on to him? If no one has contacted Hatsumi, then to be totally factual you can't point to this as any sort of "proof." There is the very real possibility that one of the many Toshindo black belts who also hold instructor's rank in the Bujinkan pick up the certificates for him while in Japan.
What is the situation here? I protected, but the talk page went virtually silent. If I unprotect, will edit wars start again? If you wish to proceed from a protected status, then start entering disputed content and suggested edits for discussion. Let me know which way you wish to proceed. IMHO, all unsourced and poorly sourced content should be removed or sourced, for a start. KillerChihuahua ?!? 11:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, it became pretty obvious to me that I don't have the experience to compete with the bullying, flames, and insults I received here. I did post references from the Internet Archives that SKH is selling diplomas, and you guys completely ignored it. I'm trying to learn more so that I can compete with the lifers here. But when I called Jikaku on the 3RRR rule, and no one took me up on it, I just realized that experience does not count here. On the upside, I am having an article published on my experiences in Ninjutsu based on some of the material I mentioned here. Assuming that you will let me reference a print publication - this issue will receive publicity. -- Corwin8 19:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
For some reason, user "124.155.12.239" continues to delete the section of this article that he doesn't happen to like - while refusing to discuss the matter at all, though he's been asked to address this on this talk page by two people now. What's to be done? -- 8.8.197.169 14:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the addition about diplomas. I don't see how the text is relevant to SKH's status in the Bujinkan. The conclusion accompanying the text is pure speculation. Speculation that Hatsumi expelled SKH for selling black belts by video was rightfully removed. By the same token, speculation that SKH is still "in" the Bujinkan should also be removed. Dammokles 15:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It does seem though that the non-speculative receipt of the diplomas should stay - no? Just like the removal of the placard at Noda stayed - while the speculation around its meaning was removed.
I agree with you - I'll add back the bare facts, minus the speculation. -- Jikaku 00:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed - I edited the section to add the facts about the diplomas at the end of the section, though. It places them in better context. Dammokles 15:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
He looks just like Terry Pratchett ! Magic Pickle 16:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)