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This article about Stefan Molyneux looks far from neutral.
I am not a fan of the character but the article is at best frivolous and defamatory.
I will ask moderation to delete this article and get a vote .
-- Jsmaster ( talk) 16:42, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
You misunderstood the nature of the beast here. Wikipedia stopped being about neutrality when it allowed yellow journalism as a primary source, many media outlets cut and paste each others work and don't care about journalism - so once someone makes a single claim it will spread, soon you'll have thousands of sources repeating the same thing. Whether the thing is true or not doesn't matter to Wikipedia what matters to them is if there is a primary source for it. This turned off most editors and academics who walked away about a decade ago leaving only political zealots and activists who saw their opportunity to weaponize something that will get into children's classrooms. Nothing you do or say will change anything as their long march through the institutions is complete. This is why alternative media is invaluable to the sum of human knowledge, not with the institutes of power and the totalitarians, but with the rebels and free thinkers of the dark web. 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 02:23, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Stefan Molyneaux has not advocated for any of those positions (roll back civil rights, prohibit non white immigration, or structure public policy around the inferiority of blacks), there is no evidence for any of these claims. Molyneaux is a Libertarian who has invited on his channel thinkers from both sides of the debate on race and intelligence, including Eric Turkheimer and James Flynn. A source that makes claims about an individual without providing supporting evidence should not be used in an encyclopedia no matter how much you as an individual believe it to be a “reliable source”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmann101 ( talk • contribs) 16:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I just rewrote the intro a little, to be more (in my opinion) neutral and straightforward. During that rewriting, in which I matched up sources with specific labels given to Molyneux ("alt-right", "far-right", etc.), I found something very interesting, which is: none of the sources for this article seem to actually call him a white supremacist! The closest they seem to come is saying that he "amplifies" white supremacists by having interviewed some on his podcast. Now, I'm not denying that he has been called a white supremacist, but the places that have called him that don't seem to be cited here. I left the "white supremacist" label in the intro, but now with a "citation needed" tag.
Regardless of how this pans out, I do find it interesting that no one here seems willing or able to offer a definition of white supremacy that encompasses Molyneux's views. I know we're just editors, etc., but it's still interesting. Korny O'Near ( talk) 20:58, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
amplifies "scientific racism," eugenics and white supremacism to a massive new audiencemeans to me. He interviews people and in so doing he "amplifies" their views. And the Southern Poverty Law Center is an advocacy group, they are a biased and opinionated. [2] Bus stop ( talk) 23:21, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
This version is unacceptable for multiple reasons. For one, using two obscure and lengthy self-serving sources to fill half of the first paragraph with pseudointellectial trivia is not neutral or appropriate. Downplaying the entire reason he is notable enough to have an article is also wildly inappropriate, and this also used WP:WEASEL words to undermine reliable sources. False equivelence between his self description and "the media's" description is tactical and non-neutral, and appears to be whitewashing. "former software entrepreneur" in the very first sentence? Who cares about that crap? Was he a paperboy as a child, as well? Give me a break. Grayfell ( talk) 20:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Seconded. His self-aggrandizing Youtube comments do not take precedence over the consistent characterizations that appear in reliable sources. They are barely acceptable for even for his self description. He's certainly not known for arguing that "different races have different average IQs", he's known for advancing scientific racism. Regardless of what you personally believe, I can't see how any plausible reading of the sources could lead you to think that this was a reasonable summation of how he is described. Nblund talk 00:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
...Molyneux openly promotes scientific racism, advocates for the men’s rights movement, critiques initiatives devoted to gender equity, and promotes white supremacist conspiracy theories focused on “White Genocide” and “The Great Replacement.”
...white supremacists across the world have been raising a false alarm about [white genocide] for more than a decade...In 2017, Stefan Molyneux aired an interview with Simon Roche, a leading proponent of the South African farmer hoax.
compelling? That and 4.50$ will get you a tall soy latte.
compellingdemonstrates a non-neutral preference for unreliable sources and boutique definitions. Grayfell ( talk) 02:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
"corroborate"this specific description. That was the entire point of my comment. Many sources repeatedly emphasize his specific use of racist pseudoscience, and overwhelming belief in the superiority of white people, and specifically his belief that black people are inferior to white people in various ways. It would be non-neutral to call that anything other than white supremacy. Articles which say he is a white supremacist cannot be ignored just because they do not have the magic phrase "Molyneux is a white supremacist". This would be pedantic.
Grayfell - Is it really your view that white supremacy is the "belief that black people are inferior to white people in various ways"? Because that just sounds like garden-variety racism to me.
Somedifferentstuff - you already posted that same quote, and I have the same response as I did before. Korny O'Near ( talk) 13:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Sources which cite or positively mention Data & Society, interview Becca Lewis (the study's author) as an expert, or otherwise support that this has a "positive reputation" (per WP:RS) as a reliable source of information on internet extremists:
Data & Society as an organization, and this author specifically, are regarded by other reliable outlets as expert resources for youtube extremism. Grayfell ( talk) 05:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
This point kind of got lost in the shuffle, but what do other editors thing about the inclusion of the white supremacist category for this page? Reliable sources sort of disagree on the extent to which white nationalism and white supremacy are distinct, but Molyneux is also characterized as a "bridge" (pg. 38) between the alt-light and the more overly white supremacist elements of the far right, and that distinction may be worth preserving. Nblund talk 17:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
The article is making a disputed assertion about "white supremacism" as if it were not disputed by the living person himself - who rejects be part of that movement. That is a problem of neutrality in the article. This is my proposal of redaction, more balanced and with the respective references. -- Hades7 ( talk) 17:14, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Rules in biographies are to take in consideration the opinion of the subject of the biography. My proposal is not excessive, I think, taking account that in the current version critic's sources are used since the beginning of the article (not very recommendable in a biography of a living person).
Here the sources used to express that the assertions of political labels by some media are disputed by the person labeled (remember that in biographies of living persons self-sources are also as important as secondary sources about the same statement):
-- Hades7 ( talk) 22:51, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
The sources quoted for this article are opinion pieces, that provide no evidence for their claims. And the logic here seems to be, that if enough opinion pieces repeat the same smear it becomes fact. MoMoBig ( talk) 10:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Why does this article differ so drastically from the other languages articles about this person? Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and Finnish are all about the same. Also what are these sources? Southern Poverty Law Center, Columbia Journalism Review, MotherJones, Springer international publishing. If you don't have any journals to go by at least use reputable news sources. Moerttn ( talk) 03:28, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
It could be argued that Molyneux is a white nationalist, but he certainly does not fit the definition of white supremacist. It's quite alarming that he can be branded as such on Wikipedia simply because the media labels him that. The claim of him being "far-right" is also in error, because his beliefs are clearly Libertarian/Classical Liberal/Anarcho-Capitalist in nature. He has never once advocated for the authoritarianism or fascism that tends to accompany the far-right. 66.115.87.148 ( talk) 01:45, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
certainly does not fit the definition of white supremacistit is because that boutique definition was reinvented by white supremacists solely to make their ideology more appealing. Since Wikipedia isn't a platform for public relations, we will go by independent definitions of the term instead. Per multiple reliable sources, Molyneux's statements and actions promote white supremacist views. Grayfell ( talk) 22:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Number one rule of the WP:BLP is NPOV. Any source that simply labels a person with a derogatory term (like "white supremacist") without providing any background cannot possibly be considered reliable regardless where it was published and MUST be discarded. I am in favour of a much shorter NEUTRAL and FACTUAL narrative. Truther2012 ( talk) 16:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Before you decide to remove the tag, don't do it. I think the discussion above is more than sufficient to prove this point. Nikolaiho ☎️ 📖 00:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
I thought people were over exaggerating, but now I see that they were right, this article is horribly misleading and one sided. It does not tell a neutral story, and the fact that you can't edit it is rather telling. I've watched Stefan Molyneaux for a long time. I know him well, too, and from what I know all he does is take a philosophical stance on things, and will not say what people want to hear sometimes. So then this… He mentioned how, online his reputation has really taken a hit from disingenuous people here at wikipedia. I thought it may have been overblown but… wow Why is this allowed? Only recently become a member, but, thinking of moving on already, if this is the way you treat the responsibility of giving people accurate information.
It's very scary that it's allowed that people twist a person's online reputation for political reasons. Very unprofessional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blimp-hq ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The entry resembled more of a one sided hit piece than an encyclopedia. It was full of one sided smears using citations of only secondary sources. I have made some adjustments to try to bring more balance and including what was most lacking: primary source citations. Here is a detailed description of the changes I have made.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Stefan_Molyneux&action=edit§ion=4 1) Removed the description of him as “far-right” and “white nationalist” because the citations to support this are not primary sources and they do not cite any primary sources where he asserts this. Instead I replaced the descriptions with Libertarian YouTuber and podcaster as these are descriptions he uses himself and there are primary sources provided to support those descriptions.
2) Added some additional things that he is known for, in addition to “scientific racism”. Along with the primary sources that describe his views on those topics.
3) Changed the language to make it clearer that the assertion that he promotes “scientific racism and white supremacist views” is an opinion by the SPLC and other groups rather than a view he specifically claims to hold.
4) I left the part that says he is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement. Though there are no primary sources to support that he uses this label. So I added a second sentence saying that Stefan Molyneux responded saying that he does not identify as “Right Wing”, preferring the label “Anarcho-Capitalist”, with the citation for that response.
5) Moved the opinion of Tom Clements that his “fixation” on a topic is “perverse” from the introduction to a specific section about criticism. The opinion of one person that someone’s interest in a topic is “perverse” is inappropriate for an encyclopedia entry, especially the introductory paragraph. I would say to delete this altogether but as a compromise it could be moved to a more specific section on criticisms / opinions. If anyone feels these are not fair or balanced edits then please do not simply reverse them all out but contact me and let’s try to have a discussion and come to a compromise to make this page more balanced. I have focused on the introductory paragraph but I can see that the section on his “views” bizarrely has zero citations to any primary sources where he himself discusses his views. So this section obviously needs work too. But let’s first work towards getting the introduction right before working towards the section on views. Thank you. Gmann101 ( talk) 14:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Explain how a person cannot be a reliable source for their own views? They are the only reliable source for their views. Whether those secondary sources are reliable and have a history of fact checking is entirely your subjective opinion. Stefan Molyneux is the only primary source for his own views. There is no reason to rely on a secondary source for his views, and if you cannot find a single citation from his own mouth that supports a claim about his views then the claim is obviously false. There is nothing controversial about his promotion of the things I included (the non aggression principle, peaceful parenting, etc.), in that no one denies that he promotes those things, so why did you remove those changes? As a compromise I was willing to include both the allegations others have made about him and his views as he himself expresses them. Otherwise you are refusing his right to face his accuser. That is the change I made. So if you want to remove my changes then please go through each change and explain why it should be removed. Gmann101 ( talk) 15:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
The rule about self-published sources cannot possibly apply to the evidence about the views that someone has expressed, because the only possible way to ascertain what someone has said is by relying on what they have said as a source. Furthermore any secondary source that makes a claim about a primary source without providing a citation to that primary source should not be considered reliable. In this case the only secondary source concerning the views of Mr. Molyneux that provides a primary citation is the SPLC source, therefore that should really be the only citation used, other than Molyneaux himself describing his own views. Gmann101 ( talk) 16:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
OK lets go through the numbered points I made 1 by 1 and you can deal with each one in a detailed way:
1) Removed the description of him as “far-right” and “white nationalist” because the citations to support this are not primary sources and they do not cite any primary sources where he asserts this. Instead I replaced the descriptions with Libertarian YouTuber and podcaster as these are descriptions he uses himself and there are primary sources provided to support those descriptions.
What source do you have that Stefan Molyneux is a "White Nationalist"? Meaning that he advocates for an ethnically pure white nation? What is the evidence used by this source to support that claim? It obviously has to be something specific that he has said that supports the creation of an ethnically pure, white nation. Such an extreme and damaging allegation would require a completely unambiguous and clear claim by Mr. Molyneux, not a vague statement that could be interpreted in a number of ways. Gmann101 ( talk) 16:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
You were asked to provide evidence to support the claim in the citations that he is a "White Nationalist". You have not done so, either out of laziness or because you know such evidence does not exist. You are making the claim that he is a White Nationalist, so the burden of proof lies on you to provide an actual piece of evidence to support that claim. Simply stating that a source you consider reliable says he is without providing evidence is nothing more than an appeal to authority, and a woozle effect. None of the quotes on the SPLC site make any direct advocacy for creating a nation based on a white race. There are quotes about race and IQ and race and crime rates, but nothing about white nationalism. And to top it off you have now added more claims without evidence: that his views are indistinguishable from the views of other white nationalists: citation needed. The statement "we can't call someone a white nationalist if they dispute it" is a complete strawman, the real situation is: "we can't call someone a white nationalist if there is no evidence to support it". If you are not going to provide any evidence that he is a white nationalist then that description should be removed from the article and we should move on to point #2. Gmann101 ( talk) 20:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Another thing to consider is there is a huge difference between believing in the science of race and race based differences in average intelligence, and advocating for white nationalism. It seems as if Nblund is conflating the two, and using evidence for the former as evidence for the latter. The former is a scientific position that can be held devoid of any political beliefs, and the latter is an overtly political position. There are both liberals (i.e. Steven Pinker, Sam Harris) and Libertarians (Charles Murray, Stefan Molyneux) that have expressed a belief in race differences in IQ, without necessarily drawing any political conclusions about forming a nation based on racial exclusion or racial prejudice. Gmann101 ( talk) 20:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Grayfell has just made a classic "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. You should never accept a source uncritically without examining it's content, and verifying there is supporting evidence within. Gmann101 ( talk) 20:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
A source needs to provide evidence for an assertion, otherwise it is not trustworthy. You don't just use a source that provides zero evidence for something. That is extremely dogmatic and goes against everything Wikipedia is meant to stand for. One of the 5 pillars of Wikipedia is to strive for neutrality and avoid advocacy. WP:5P2 The SPLC is a Far left advocacy group and should not be considered a reliable source. Where does Wikipedia list the SPLC as a reliable and unquestionable source? The SPLC has been successfully sued for defamation in the past. The SPLC also labels Charles Murray and Henry Harpending as "White Nationalists", yet the Wikipedia articles on those individuals do not label them as such. So if the SPLC's opinion must be accepted uncritically then why do those articles also not label those people as such? Gmann101 ( talk) 13:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
It is clear from the talk page and the history that there has never been any consensus on this page. If the only sources available are far left advocacy groups and publications, along with Molyneux himself, and no one else has taken enough interest in him to write about him then perhaps Stefan Molyneux is not noteworthy enough to even have a Wikipedia page in the first place. It seems there is never going to be a consensus that this article is neutral so perhaps it is time to remove it altogether? Gmann101 ( talk) 13:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
A source needs to provide evidence for an assertionThis isn't what our guidelines say. The SPLC is one of several sources offering the same characterization of Molyneux's views. Charles Murray's adherence to white nationalism is a subject of some debate among some noteworthy sources. Molyneux's isn't. Nblund talk 14:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I can find no far-left advocacy groups in our sources. The SPLC is not far-left and is not described as such in our article on it for good reason. No source is unquestionable, but Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources says "The Southern Poverty Law Center is considered generally reliable on topics related to hate groups and extremism in the United States. As an advocacy group, the SPLC is a biased and opinionated source. The organization's views, especially when labeling hate groups, should be attributed per WP:RSOPINION. Take care to ensure that content from the SPLC constitutes due weight in the article and conforms to the biographies of living persons policy." We attribute it. As for other articles on Wikipedia, you'll have to ask at those articles. Just out of curiousity, how is a publication by Palgrave Studies in Cybercrime and Cybersecurity, published by Palgrave Macmillanusing this author a far-left publication? Doug Weller talk 14:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Gmann101 ( talk) 17:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
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Dear wikipedia,
This article is horrible far leftist rhetoric ment to smear a good person. It places every bit of information on him out of context (a popular tactic by the far left),which is pretty much the same as what happens in congress and by extension everywhere in the world to anyone who disagrees with the far left ideology . Whoever wrote this has nothing but ill intentions and masks him/herself under the guise of virtue and should be banned for life from wikipedia. I have followed stefan for a long time on social media and in my learned opinion he is a person with a clean conscience (something which the far left sorely lacks) and tries to make the world a better place by exposing the the mainstream media (and by extension the idiocy of the far left) for the frauds they are. Naturally a smear campaign like this follows.
If you want to do the right thing,then delete this flaming pile of garbage article. The western world is in dire need of honest people like Stefan.
Do not let these horrible people rend him asunder. Herrpfick ( talk) 11:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
No, he is first-and-foremost alt-right. As the sources for this are already present in the article, the case can be made logically:
The whole point of this is that he espouses contradictory beliefs: white-nationalist views, anarchist views, capitalist views, conservative views, racial views, liberal views. It is his being alt-right that allows him such contradictions. All other (well sourced) descriptions should be secondary to this.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/alt-right
The terminology comes from pop-psychology under the formulation "family of origin" and "family of choice," used within the context of serious child abuse. In co-opting the term, Molyneux cuts out the latter half as well as the original context. Molyneux starts from the position that it is right to leave abusive environments then intends to persuade his followers that all their parents have been abusive. This is the root of all cult accusations he receives.
As political outrage ever increases, the Molyneux cult has greatly fallen out of attention and as such there is less material on the subject coming from reliable sources. The section is in great need of update and, while it is good to give an outline of Molyneux's terminology, such terminology should be minimized to preserve an unbiased authenticity to the article.
Introductory reading for anyone looking to expand upon the cult accusations section: http://www.fdrliberated.com/is-stefan-molyneux-freedomain-radio-responsible-for-suicide/ http://www.fdrliberated.com/forum/index.php?topic=325.0
The article is completely devoid of mention to Molyneux's self-published books. If someone could clear up why that is the case it would be appreciated. Some of his books such as On Truth: The Tyranny of Illusion are rich with his sentiments of family separation as well as various other tidbits of pop-psychology and politics. Wk7sn ( talk) 01:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
The article is completely devoid of mention to Molyneux's self-published books. The bolded part is your answer. Anyone can self-publish anything at any time and, therefore, self-published books are not automatically notable unless they've been covered by reliable secondary sources. Even then, we'd have to weigh WP:DUE and whether they're important to his notability, ie. a passing mention wouldn't justify much coverage here. For the rest, we use the terminology used in the sources, so the thing to do would be to collect the sources in the article, see what they say, and then see if you can find equally-reliable (or better) sources that disagree or say other things. -- Aquillion ( talk) 00:43, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
This article about Stefan Molyneux looks far from neutral.
I am not a fan of the character but the article is at best frivolous and defamatory.
I will ask moderation to delete this article and get a vote .
-- Jsmaster ( talk) 16:42, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
You misunderstood the nature of the beast here. Wikipedia stopped being about neutrality when it allowed yellow journalism as a primary source, many media outlets cut and paste each others work and don't care about journalism - so once someone makes a single claim it will spread, soon you'll have thousands of sources repeating the same thing. Whether the thing is true or not doesn't matter to Wikipedia what matters to them is if there is a primary source for it. This turned off most editors and academics who walked away about a decade ago leaving only political zealots and activists who saw their opportunity to weaponize something that will get into children's classrooms. Nothing you do or say will change anything as their long march through the institutions is complete. This is why alternative media is invaluable to the sum of human knowledge, not with the institutes of power and the totalitarians, but with the rebels and free thinkers of the dark web. 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 02:23, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Stefan Molyneaux has not advocated for any of those positions (roll back civil rights, prohibit non white immigration, or structure public policy around the inferiority of blacks), there is no evidence for any of these claims. Molyneaux is a Libertarian who has invited on his channel thinkers from both sides of the debate on race and intelligence, including Eric Turkheimer and James Flynn. A source that makes claims about an individual without providing supporting evidence should not be used in an encyclopedia no matter how much you as an individual believe it to be a “reliable source”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmann101 ( talk • contribs) 16:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I just rewrote the intro a little, to be more (in my opinion) neutral and straightforward. During that rewriting, in which I matched up sources with specific labels given to Molyneux ("alt-right", "far-right", etc.), I found something very interesting, which is: none of the sources for this article seem to actually call him a white supremacist! The closest they seem to come is saying that he "amplifies" white supremacists by having interviewed some on his podcast. Now, I'm not denying that he has been called a white supremacist, but the places that have called him that don't seem to be cited here. I left the "white supremacist" label in the intro, but now with a "citation needed" tag.
Regardless of how this pans out, I do find it interesting that no one here seems willing or able to offer a definition of white supremacy that encompasses Molyneux's views. I know we're just editors, etc., but it's still interesting. Korny O'Near ( talk) 20:58, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
amplifies "scientific racism," eugenics and white supremacism to a massive new audiencemeans to me. He interviews people and in so doing he "amplifies" their views. And the Southern Poverty Law Center is an advocacy group, they are a biased and opinionated. [2] Bus stop ( talk) 23:21, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
This version is unacceptable for multiple reasons. For one, using two obscure and lengthy self-serving sources to fill half of the first paragraph with pseudointellectial trivia is not neutral or appropriate. Downplaying the entire reason he is notable enough to have an article is also wildly inappropriate, and this also used WP:WEASEL words to undermine reliable sources. False equivelence between his self description and "the media's" description is tactical and non-neutral, and appears to be whitewashing. "former software entrepreneur" in the very first sentence? Who cares about that crap? Was he a paperboy as a child, as well? Give me a break. Grayfell ( talk) 20:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Seconded. His self-aggrandizing Youtube comments do not take precedence over the consistent characterizations that appear in reliable sources. They are barely acceptable for even for his self description. He's certainly not known for arguing that "different races have different average IQs", he's known for advancing scientific racism. Regardless of what you personally believe, I can't see how any plausible reading of the sources could lead you to think that this was a reasonable summation of how he is described. Nblund talk 00:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
...Molyneux openly promotes scientific racism, advocates for the men’s rights movement, critiques initiatives devoted to gender equity, and promotes white supremacist conspiracy theories focused on “White Genocide” and “The Great Replacement.”
...white supremacists across the world have been raising a false alarm about [white genocide] for more than a decade...In 2017, Stefan Molyneux aired an interview with Simon Roche, a leading proponent of the South African farmer hoax.
compelling? That and 4.50$ will get you a tall soy latte.
compellingdemonstrates a non-neutral preference for unreliable sources and boutique definitions. Grayfell ( talk) 02:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
"corroborate"this specific description. That was the entire point of my comment. Many sources repeatedly emphasize his specific use of racist pseudoscience, and overwhelming belief in the superiority of white people, and specifically his belief that black people are inferior to white people in various ways. It would be non-neutral to call that anything other than white supremacy. Articles which say he is a white supremacist cannot be ignored just because they do not have the magic phrase "Molyneux is a white supremacist". This would be pedantic.
Grayfell - Is it really your view that white supremacy is the "belief that black people are inferior to white people in various ways"? Because that just sounds like garden-variety racism to me.
Somedifferentstuff - you already posted that same quote, and I have the same response as I did before. Korny O'Near ( talk) 13:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Sources which cite or positively mention Data & Society, interview Becca Lewis (the study's author) as an expert, or otherwise support that this has a "positive reputation" (per WP:RS) as a reliable source of information on internet extremists:
Data & Society as an organization, and this author specifically, are regarded by other reliable outlets as expert resources for youtube extremism. Grayfell ( talk) 05:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
This point kind of got lost in the shuffle, but what do other editors thing about the inclusion of the white supremacist category for this page? Reliable sources sort of disagree on the extent to which white nationalism and white supremacy are distinct, but Molyneux is also characterized as a "bridge" (pg. 38) between the alt-light and the more overly white supremacist elements of the far right, and that distinction may be worth preserving. Nblund talk 17:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
The article is making a disputed assertion about "white supremacism" as if it were not disputed by the living person himself - who rejects be part of that movement. That is a problem of neutrality in the article. This is my proposal of redaction, more balanced and with the respective references. -- Hades7 ( talk) 17:14, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Rules in biographies are to take in consideration the opinion of the subject of the biography. My proposal is not excessive, I think, taking account that in the current version critic's sources are used since the beginning of the article (not very recommendable in a biography of a living person).
Here the sources used to express that the assertions of political labels by some media are disputed by the person labeled (remember that in biographies of living persons self-sources are also as important as secondary sources about the same statement):
-- Hades7 ( talk) 22:51, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
The sources quoted for this article are opinion pieces, that provide no evidence for their claims. And the logic here seems to be, that if enough opinion pieces repeat the same smear it becomes fact. MoMoBig ( talk) 10:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Why does this article differ so drastically from the other languages articles about this person? Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and Finnish are all about the same. Also what are these sources? Southern Poverty Law Center, Columbia Journalism Review, MotherJones, Springer international publishing. If you don't have any journals to go by at least use reputable news sources. Moerttn ( talk) 03:28, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
It could be argued that Molyneux is a white nationalist, but he certainly does not fit the definition of white supremacist. It's quite alarming that he can be branded as such on Wikipedia simply because the media labels him that. The claim of him being "far-right" is also in error, because his beliefs are clearly Libertarian/Classical Liberal/Anarcho-Capitalist in nature. He has never once advocated for the authoritarianism or fascism that tends to accompany the far-right. 66.115.87.148 ( talk) 01:45, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
certainly does not fit the definition of white supremacistit is because that boutique definition was reinvented by white supremacists solely to make their ideology more appealing. Since Wikipedia isn't a platform for public relations, we will go by independent definitions of the term instead. Per multiple reliable sources, Molyneux's statements and actions promote white supremacist views. Grayfell ( talk) 22:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Number one rule of the WP:BLP is NPOV. Any source that simply labels a person with a derogatory term (like "white supremacist") without providing any background cannot possibly be considered reliable regardless where it was published and MUST be discarded. I am in favour of a much shorter NEUTRAL and FACTUAL narrative. Truther2012 ( talk) 16:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Before you decide to remove the tag, don't do it. I think the discussion above is more than sufficient to prove this point. Nikolaiho ☎️ 📖 00:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
I thought people were over exaggerating, but now I see that they were right, this article is horribly misleading and one sided. It does not tell a neutral story, and the fact that you can't edit it is rather telling. I've watched Stefan Molyneaux for a long time. I know him well, too, and from what I know all he does is take a philosophical stance on things, and will not say what people want to hear sometimes. So then this… He mentioned how, online his reputation has really taken a hit from disingenuous people here at wikipedia. I thought it may have been overblown but… wow Why is this allowed? Only recently become a member, but, thinking of moving on already, if this is the way you treat the responsibility of giving people accurate information.
It's very scary that it's allowed that people twist a person's online reputation for political reasons. Very unprofessional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blimp-hq ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The entry resembled more of a one sided hit piece than an encyclopedia. It was full of one sided smears using citations of only secondary sources. I have made some adjustments to try to bring more balance and including what was most lacking: primary source citations. Here is a detailed description of the changes I have made.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Stefan_Molyneux&action=edit§ion=4 1) Removed the description of him as “far-right” and “white nationalist” because the citations to support this are not primary sources and they do not cite any primary sources where he asserts this. Instead I replaced the descriptions with Libertarian YouTuber and podcaster as these are descriptions he uses himself and there are primary sources provided to support those descriptions.
2) Added some additional things that he is known for, in addition to “scientific racism”. Along with the primary sources that describe his views on those topics.
3) Changed the language to make it clearer that the assertion that he promotes “scientific racism and white supremacist views” is an opinion by the SPLC and other groups rather than a view he specifically claims to hold.
4) I left the part that says he is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement. Though there are no primary sources to support that he uses this label. So I added a second sentence saying that Stefan Molyneux responded saying that he does not identify as “Right Wing”, preferring the label “Anarcho-Capitalist”, with the citation for that response.
5) Moved the opinion of Tom Clements that his “fixation” on a topic is “perverse” from the introduction to a specific section about criticism. The opinion of one person that someone’s interest in a topic is “perverse” is inappropriate for an encyclopedia entry, especially the introductory paragraph. I would say to delete this altogether but as a compromise it could be moved to a more specific section on criticisms / opinions. If anyone feels these are not fair or balanced edits then please do not simply reverse them all out but contact me and let’s try to have a discussion and come to a compromise to make this page more balanced. I have focused on the introductory paragraph but I can see that the section on his “views” bizarrely has zero citations to any primary sources where he himself discusses his views. So this section obviously needs work too. But let’s first work towards getting the introduction right before working towards the section on views. Thank you. Gmann101 ( talk) 14:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Explain how a person cannot be a reliable source for their own views? They are the only reliable source for their views. Whether those secondary sources are reliable and have a history of fact checking is entirely your subjective opinion. Stefan Molyneux is the only primary source for his own views. There is no reason to rely on a secondary source for his views, and if you cannot find a single citation from his own mouth that supports a claim about his views then the claim is obviously false. There is nothing controversial about his promotion of the things I included (the non aggression principle, peaceful parenting, etc.), in that no one denies that he promotes those things, so why did you remove those changes? As a compromise I was willing to include both the allegations others have made about him and his views as he himself expresses them. Otherwise you are refusing his right to face his accuser. That is the change I made. So if you want to remove my changes then please go through each change and explain why it should be removed. Gmann101 ( talk) 15:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
The rule about self-published sources cannot possibly apply to the evidence about the views that someone has expressed, because the only possible way to ascertain what someone has said is by relying on what they have said as a source. Furthermore any secondary source that makes a claim about a primary source without providing a citation to that primary source should not be considered reliable. In this case the only secondary source concerning the views of Mr. Molyneux that provides a primary citation is the SPLC source, therefore that should really be the only citation used, other than Molyneaux himself describing his own views. Gmann101 ( talk) 16:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
OK lets go through the numbered points I made 1 by 1 and you can deal with each one in a detailed way:
1) Removed the description of him as “far-right” and “white nationalist” because the citations to support this are not primary sources and they do not cite any primary sources where he asserts this. Instead I replaced the descriptions with Libertarian YouTuber and podcaster as these are descriptions he uses himself and there are primary sources provided to support those descriptions.
What source do you have that Stefan Molyneux is a "White Nationalist"? Meaning that he advocates for an ethnically pure white nation? What is the evidence used by this source to support that claim? It obviously has to be something specific that he has said that supports the creation of an ethnically pure, white nation. Such an extreme and damaging allegation would require a completely unambiguous and clear claim by Mr. Molyneux, not a vague statement that could be interpreted in a number of ways. Gmann101 ( talk) 16:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
You were asked to provide evidence to support the claim in the citations that he is a "White Nationalist". You have not done so, either out of laziness or because you know such evidence does not exist. You are making the claim that he is a White Nationalist, so the burden of proof lies on you to provide an actual piece of evidence to support that claim. Simply stating that a source you consider reliable says he is without providing evidence is nothing more than an appeal to authority, and a woozle effect. None of the quotes on the SPLC site make any direct advocacy for creating a nation based on a white race. There are quotes about race and IQ and race and crime rates, but nothing about white nationalism. And to top it off you have now added more claims without evidence: that his views are indistinguishable from the views of other white nationalists: citation needed. The statement "we can't call someone a white nationalist if they dispute it" is a complete strawman, the real situation is: "we can't call someone a white nationalist if there is no evidence to support it". If you are not going to provide any evidence that he is a white nationalist then that description should be removed from the article and we should move on to point #2. Gmann101 ( talk) 20:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Another thing to consider is there is a huge difference between believing in the science of race and race based differences in average intelligence, and advocating for white nationalism. It seems as if Nblund is conflating the two, and using evidence for the former as evidence for the latter. The former is a scientific position that can be held devoid of any political beliefs, and the latter is an overtly political position. There are both liberals (i.e. Steven Pinker, Sam Harris) and Libertarians (Charles Murray, Stefan Molyneux) that have expressed a belief in race differences in IQ, without necessarily drawing any political conclusions about forming a nation based on racial exclusion or racial prejudice. Gmann101 ( talk) 20:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Grayfell has just made a classic "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. You should never accept a source uncritically without examining it's content, and verifying there is supporting evidence within. Gmann101 ( talk) 20:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
A source needs to provide evidence for an assertion, otherwise it is not trustworthy. You don't just use a source that provides zero evidence for something. That is extremely dogmatic and goes against everything Wikipedia is meant to stand for. One of the 5 pillars of Wikipedia is to strive for neutrality and avoid advocacy. WP:5P2 The SPLC is a Far left advocacy group and should not be considered a reliable source. Where does Wikipedia list the SPLC as a reliable and unquestionable source? The SPLC has been successfully sued for defamation in the past. The SPLC also labels Charles Murray and Henry Harpending as "White Nationalists", yet the Wikipedia articles on those individuals do not label them as such. So if the SPLC's opinion must be accepted uncritically then why do those articles also not label those people as such? Gmann101 ( talk) 13:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
It is clear from the talk page and the history that there has never been any consensus on this page. If the only sources available are far left advocacy groups and publications, along with Molyneux himself, and no one else has taken enough interest in him to write about him then perhaps Stefan Molyneux is not noteworthy enough to even have a Wikipedia page in the first place. It seems there is never going to be a consensus that this article is neutral so perhaps it is time to remove it altogether? Gmann101 ( talk) 13:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
A source needs to provide evidence for an assertionThis isn't what our guidelines say. The SPLC is one of several sources offering the same characterization of Molyneux's views. Charles Murray's adherence to white nationalism is a subject of some debate among some noteworthy sources. Molyneux's isn't. Nblund talk 14:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I can find no far-left advocacy groups in our sources. The SPLC is not far-left and is not described as such in our article on it for good reason. No source is unquestionable, but Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources says "The Southern Poverty Law Center is considered generally reliable on topics related to hate groups and extremism in the United States. As an advocacy group, the SPLC is a biased and opinionated source. The organization's views, especially when labeling hate groups, should be attributed per WP:RSOPINION. Take care to ensure that content from the SPLC constitutes due weight in the article and conforms to the biographies of living persons policy." We attribute it. As for other articles on Wikipedia, you'll have to ask at those articles. Just out of curiousity, how is a publication by Palgrave Studies in Cybercrime and Cybersecurity, published by Palgrave Macmillanusing this author a far-left publication? Doug Weller talk 14:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Gmann101 ( talk) 17:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
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Dear wikipedia,
This article is horrible far leftist rhetoric ment to smear a good person. It places every bit of information on him out of context (a popular tactic by the far left),which is pretty much the same as what happens in congress and by extension everywhere in the world to anyone who disagrees with the far left ideology . Whoever wrote this has nothing but ill intentions and masks him/herself under the guise of virtue and should be banned for life from wikipedia. I have followed stefan for a long time on social media and in my learned opinion he is a person with a clean conscience (something which the far left sorely lacks) and tries to make the world a better place by exposing the the mainstream media (and by extension the idiocy of the far left) for the frauds they are. Naturally a smear campaign like this follows.
If you want to do the right thing,then delete this flaming pile of garbage article. The western world is in dire need of honest people like Stefan.
Do not let these horrible people rend him asunder. Herrpfick ( talk) 11:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
No, he is first-and-foremost alt-right. As the sources for this are already present in the article, the case can be made logically:
The whole point of this is that he espouses contradictory beliefs: white-nationalist views, anarchist views, capitalist views, conservative views, racial views, liberal views. It is his being alt-right that allows him such contradictions. All other (well sourced) descriptions should be secondary to this.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/alt-right
The terminology comes from pop-psychology under the formulation "family of origin" and "family of choice," used within the context of serious child abuse. In co-opting the term, Molyneux cuts out the latter half as well as the original context. Molyneux starts from the position that it is right to leave abusive environments then intends to persuade his followers that all their parents have been abusive. This is the root of all cult accusations he receives.
As political outrage ever increases, the Molyneux cult has greatly fallen out of attention and as such there is less material on the subject coming from reliable sources. The section is in great need of update and, while it is good to give an outline of Molyneux's terminology, such terminology should be minimized to preserve an unbiased authenticity to the article.
Introductory reading for anyone looking to expand upon the cult accusations section: http://www.fdrliberated.com/is-stefan-molyneux-freedomain-radio-responsible-for-suicide/ http://www.fdrliberated.com/forum/index.php?topic=325.0
The article is completely devoid of mention to Molyneux's self-published books. If someone could clear up why that is the case it would be appreciated. Some of his books such as On Truth: The Tyranny of Illusion are rich with his sentiments of family separation as well as various other tidbits of pop-psychology and politics. Wk7sn ( talk) 01:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
The article is completely devoid of mention to Molyneux's self-published books. The bolded part is your answer. Anyone can self-publish anything at any time and, therefore, self-published books are not automatically notable unless they've been covered by reliable secondary sources. Even then, we'd have to weigh WP:DUE and whether they're important to his notability, ie. a passing mention wouldn't justify much coverage here. For the rest, we use the terminology used in the sources, so the thing to do would be to collect the sources in the article, see what they say, and then see if you can find equally-reliable (or better) sources that disagree or say other things. -- Aquillion ( talk) 00:43, 8 November 2019 (UTC)