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Did the person who wrote the "Grammar" section just choose random examples out of Huckleberry Finn or something? Yes, we commonly say "y'all", but that's about it. I don't know about the other southern states, but at least in North Carolina, it's basically just some elderly people you'll ever hear using any of those other ridiculous examples coming from. Though I live in one of the metro areas, if that's of any relevance...
Hey, I'm from Maryland and we have that stereotypical " Huckleberry Finn" in parts, but also My Cousin Vinny types...just a melting pot really...anyway, there is southern dialect throughout the entire state of MD, not just "extreme southern parts" as mentioned in this article...but because we have large cities throughout the state, they overshadow that (though some of them are even southern-like)...we don't like being tied down to one region, North or South, just included in both! Now for the yackety-yack: MD is pretty much the only state that celebrates north & south. We have N & S accents, N & S bugs and trees, N & S holiday traditions, style, food, attitudes...way back in the day our state was both for slavery (South) and for the union (North), so we've towed the line between the two regions since the beginning...a NYer will always say we sound country while a NCer will say we're yankees...we can't win! So why do both regions either neglect to include us in these articles or are hesitant to include us? We have to fit in somewhere...by the way, I just looked at the "y'all map" and it surprises me. I use yall on a regular basis...where yall going...what yall wanna eat...how yall doing...seems pretty common. I thought everybody used that, but I guess not. It may depend on race because many black folk, no matter the region, use it. Done with my babble now. Good day. Chic3z ( talk) 18:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I can't believe there is nothing in this article about words like "be". In the South, this word seems to be realized as [bəi] (like in Cockney). This applies to other words with /iː/ as well. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 20:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
That wasn't very specific. I guess that's why I was confused. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 21:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It's just my opinion. Maybe other people don't feel the same way. I just like to compare dialects. It helps me understand them better. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 01:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay guys, I seriously don't know why everyone seems to think Southerners call ever soda they drink "coke", but we don't. Nobody I've ever talked to from Louisiana (my home state) nor any of my friends from Alabama, Arkansas, or Mississippi have ever and don't know anyone who has ever reffered to anything besides Coke as Coke. We all either say "soda" or "soft drink." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 ( talk) 22:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
References don't mean much when you've been an eyewitness yourself. If I saw a cow floating through the streets I would certainly start question gravity, I couldn't care how many books you threw at me. I'll reiterate what I said; I nor no one I know has ever referred to any soft drink other than Coke as Coke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 ( talk) 05:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
You realize how vehemently retarded that is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 ( talk) 06:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
In western North Carolina we used to call all soft drinks "co'cola"---I did it growing up--admittedly a long time ago-- as did everyone around me, I have heard that elsewhere in the the South since--maybe that's where the idea came from that we call all soft drinks "coke"---I have heard that too. 70.243.143.105 ( talk) 16:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Pastor R
This is a dumb argument, the south is not monolithic! Some parts do call everything Coke, some call everything Soda. I've definitely seen research(though I can't site it at the moment) where people have graphed this for the entire US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youzwan ( talk • contribs) 21:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I think we should split the Southern American English article into an academic rendition and a more popular rendition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirk.Hazen ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
For the purpose of collecting together topics which the general public would like to read about on to one page, and then collecting together topics more interesting to academics on another. Kirk.Hazen ( talk) 19:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Southerners seem to pronounce their r-colored vowel more "heavily". I know "heavily" is not a good way to describe it, but I can't think of any other way to put it. It sounds similar to how they pronounce it in Ireland and the West Country of England. In my opinion, this is one of the most salient features of the dialect. I'm sure someone else here knows what I mean. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 02:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
My ears tell me that the diphthong in words like like is often pronounced as [ɑɪ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 02:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This article says the diphthong becomes [əɪ] before voiceless consonants. Maybe that is true for some speakers, but I here [ɑɪ] more often. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 20:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I am well aware of that. However, the article doesn't say [ɑɪ] occurs before voiceless consonants for "some speakers", does it? 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 20:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Now I found a source for what I was talking about. On page 312 of A Handbook of Varieties of English by Bernd Kortmann and Edgar W. Schneider, it reads:
Glide weakening was traditionally absent on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay, around the Pamlico Sound, and in the Low Country of South Carolina and Georgia. In the former two areas, backing of the nucleus occurred instead in all contexts. Forms such as [ɑːe] were usual, with [ɒːe] and [ɐɑe] occurring sporadically. Backing occurred for PRIZE in the Low Country. Such backing also occurs widely in the South before voiceless consonants (PRICE) where that that context remains diphthongal. Another variation reported from older speech in Tidewater and Piedmont Virginia and the South Carolina/Georgia Low Country for contexts before voiceless consonants is [ɐi], with a higher nucleus. Acoustic analyses indicate that only some speakers from the those areas showed [ɐi].
There you have it. I find the PRICE backing before voiceless consonants to be a salient feature of SAE. It seems to me that it's very common. Thegryseone ( talk) 02:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 03:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
One thing I have noticed that many SAE speakers I have listened to do is put a t in between the l and s in words like else. Thus else becomes /ɛlʦ/. I think this "intrusive t" (that's what I'll call it, anyway) occurs every time an orthographic l is followed by an orthographic s for some speakers. I don't know if ANAE mentions this or not. Then again, ANAE seems to concentrate on vowels mostly. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 00:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I realize that it seems trivial, but who's to say which features of a dialect are important? I have observed, after spending much time in the South, that this feature seems more common there than elsewhere, but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 18:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Such as Alaska. But I think you can get too nitpicky about what's SAE and what's not, because the "intrusive t" is probably just a lisp. I only know one person who does this. ~Jonathan ( talk) 11:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)"but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well."
No, you're wrong. The "intrusive t" I'm referring to has nothing to do with lisping. A lisp is a speech impediment. As the lisp article states, "Stereotypically, people with a lisp are unable to pronounce sibilants (like the sound [s]), and replace them with interdentals (like the sound [θ]), though there are actually several kinds of lisp." The phenomenon I'm referring to is not a speech impediment. I really don't understand what you mean when you say I can get "too nitpicky". Labov et al. define SAE by the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] before obstruents. In some areas, there is glide deletion of /aɪ/ before voiceless consonants more than half the time. This happens in two areas: the Inland South in the Appalachian Region, and the Texas South in central and west Texas, says Labov. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 21:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
User 24.185.110.186 seems intent on changing a specific paragraph in the article to be incorrect. He/she was reverted twice by Ajd and me on 15 April 2008 and was previously reverted twice by Angr and Aeusoes1 on 28 December 2007. I have added a warning to the user's talk page (encouraging use of sources and discouraging OR). ++ Arx Fortis ( talk) 07:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
There really doesn't seem to be much information on the Charleston accent on Wikipedia or anywhere on the internet for that matter. I would love to know more about it, but I just can't find anything. I realize it is fading away, but I just want to know what it used to sound like. Can anyone help me? 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 01:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Im just very curious the map for the southern dialect in my opinion and many of my friends we are quite puzzled why Kentucky or Oklahoma is not fully included. yes kentucky may have been a border state but most kentuckians like (myself) & most northerners will tell you the whole state deserves to be in their from paducah kentucky to ashland kentucky is very southern to the core.June 19 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Featherhawk 81 ( talk • contribs) 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The statements you make about Oklahoma are utterly false. Garth Brooks may not have a strong Oklahoma accent, but he is not the norm in Oklahoma. Oklahomans from all areas of the state speak with a variation of the southern dialect. In fact, the accent in many cases is stronger than you will hear in most parts of Texas. This is especially true in the southeastern portions of the state. I don't know what "west midlands" is and it doesn't make much sense considering Oklahoma's settlement pattern and geographic location. Oklahoma has always been a the western most outpost of the south and has always been primarily fed by settlement from other southern states. Tulsa is situated in the Ozarks and is almost in Arkansas. There is nothing "midwestern" or "midland" about it. I actually contacted the organization that produced the studies behind these maps and they admitted that they had not sampled people north of the Oklahoma City metro. They in turn left that area blank. I can assure you that people living in Stilwater do not sound like people from Nebraska.
Why doesn't the map at the top of this article that shows the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] include southern Illinois, southern Indiana, southern Ohio, much more of Missouri, much more of Oklahoma, and some of Kansas? I know linguists have studied these regions. Kurath and McDavid called these areas the South Midland. I just don't understand why they're not included. Thegryseone ( talk) 21:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
But that certainly doesn't mean that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ doesn't take place in those regions, correct? It merely means that Labov et al. didn't study those regions, which is understandable, because there aren't any major cities in that area. Thegryseone ( talk) 21:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I was overgeneralizing. Excuse me. Cincinnati would be the only one. I'm just saying that I don't think that map is completely accurate. Thegryseone ( talk) 23:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
you know im from southern ohio & I speak with as southern dialect Dayton,Ohio,and Middletown Ohio and I lived hear my whole life & most people I know have some type of southern dialect you know most of the people that live around here came from eastern ky &tn as early as world war 1 for work we only live like 30 minutes from the mason-dixon line —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.101.131 ( talk) 02:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
If anyone has ever been to Portsmouth,Ironton,Hillsboro,Jackson,Greenfield,Wilmington or Washington Courthouse.You can deff tell that this part of Ohio has a very comparable almost exact culture to eastern kentucky,& the lower part of west virginia.During the American civil war this part of Ohio was actually torn against brother against like most of Southern Appalachia due to the fact most of the original settlers in the early 1800s came from Virginia,Kentucky & Tennessee to this area.Now southwestern Ohio like Dayton,Middletown,Hamilton is also heavily influenced with a Southern Midland accent due to the extremely large amount of Southern Appalachain people that have completely changed the southwestern Ohio accent since the begining of world war 1 & 2 absorbing the appalachain dialect with the local midland dialect & intermarrying with the local people from way back then till now transforming the area with a hybrid type of speech that is very different then that of central or northern Ohio & more comparable to a southern midland dialect especially in your rural areas of this part of the state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.108.171.164 ( talk) 21:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Why isn't southern ohio on the southern dialect map?Obviously you didn't spent alot time researching the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.23.127.41 ( talk) 17:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Can someone find a formant plot for SAE? Thanks. Thegryseone ( talk) 22:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)The southern portion of ohio is southern appalchain in culture in all forms.
I read here about something called a constricted r. Can someone explain to me what that is? Thegryseone ( talk) 03:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This section states:
I'm not contesting the statement, but these citations are atrocious. Does anyone have any better resources on the matter? Halogenated ( talk) 17:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Well hello y'all. I've tidied up the grammar section & removed the "word use" section. These examples of dialect words belong in the regional vocabularies article, which is more of a glossary of words, whereas SAA should focus on Southern grammar & pronunciation. I have moved to the regional vocab article any examples from this article there which were not there already. I did not move the citations since the other words on that page do not have citatons, but if anybody wants to retrieve the references, they can be found from the history. I have also added a link to the regional vocab article in the SAA article & vice-versa.
I've rearranged the grammar into a slightly more logical order, keeping similar points (e.g. past tense forms) close together. Also merged a few points on the list that were basically the same, & split a few which were saying different things. Weasel Fetlocks ( talk) 16:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the reference that "y'all" is not used often in Newrer SAE. I can not speak for the rest of the peoplefrom other southern states, but I will say in Texas that we use the contraction quite often. I even use in my emails at work. If anyone from other southern states have the smae opinion as I do, please share them. Bigt2448 ( talk) 15:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma and I'm wondering if this is mostly used in the southern portion of the state. I rarely hear of this and when I hear someone say it, chances are they're from Texas, or the extreme southern areas in Oklahoma. Most of us up hear either say "you" or "you guys". Michelle1228 ( talk)
It has been my observation as a southerner that we nearly always use "y'all" as the plural of "you", and "you all" only in situations where any speaker of English might use it, to emphasize that all in the group addressed are included, just as one might say "we all". 107.133.158.129 ( talk) 04:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
When I read "turning wasn't into won't," I wondered if the writer meant "wadn't" (where the d is a like glottal stop followed by a nasal n).
And are the pronunciations (here represented by my redneck spelling) "dudn't" for "doesn't" and "idn't" for "isn't" generally used in Southern American English? If so, please add to the article. DBlomgren ( talk) 05:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it is used. I use it when I slip back into the accent, and my grandfather and father in law both use it frequently.
JAGUITAR
(Rawr)
18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 03:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed that a lot of speakers in the South use whenever where speakers in other dialect regions would use when. For example, one time I heard a guy say, "Whenever I was twelve years old, we would play baseball a lot." Even educated Southerners seem to do this, which tells me that it is probably just part of the dialect. Sometimes I am so tempted to say, "What do you mean whenever you were twelve years old? You were twelve years old when you were twelve years old." However, I haven't said that yet, because I don't want to be an asshole. Thegryseone ( talk) 17:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
In the areas around Hobbs, Roswell, and Clovis New Mexico there is a strong southern-Texas influenced-accent.
Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj ( talk) 02:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It should also be noted that the residents of Tangier Island in Virginia's Chesapeake Bay have a unique accent that is very old and appears to be completely unrelated to the traditional Southern accent. Although the accent on Tangier Island appears to be fading as younger residents have grown up with access to mass media and numerous mainland tourists.
Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj ( talk) 02:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I live in the South, and unless you go into an extremely rural area, you will never hear any of that if you live in a town with more than 1000 people (minus replacing got with have). Thats more of a redneck accent than a southern accent, and their are differences. Its like comparing the average northern accent to the Boston accent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.190.238 ( talk) 16:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
southern rural ohio,illinois & indianna have a southern culture as well your map im sorry but your map super waaaaaay off I live in jackson ohio & we have a southern culture here
Of course the dialect of Southern American English owes it origins to African American Vernacular English. Ya'll realize that of course. 216.78.55.7 ( talk) 10:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Certainly back and forth. However the origins of the "Southern slur," were from the African slaves, attempting to speak a forced language. The white southerners, especially the children, picked up this slang dialect which quickly spread throughout the south with the migrations of the mainly uneducated southern population, the wealthy plantation families among those picking up the vernacular and calling it their own. 216.78.50.116 ( talk) 09:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Self evidence. 216.78.54.40 ( talk) 09:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I can do better. Everything has an origin. SAE had it's origin precisely in the southern colonies. It was spoken nowhere else. A huge influx of African slaves were present in the southern colonies at the time of SAE origin. Nowhere else was this particular influx present. This specific addition into the original English dialect, which was a combination of somewhat similar Scot-English, Irish-English, and Anglo-Saxon English, was being spoken in the northern colonies without that particular addition. The result? A completely different dialect in the north than SAE. The remaining question? What was the only addition missing from the sum of Northern American English? There lies your answer. Simple evident logic would be the 'reference' point. 216.78.58.87 ( talk) 10:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
This is merely a talk page you moron. I added nothing to any article. I also do not expect my mere opinion, correct as it is, to be accepted as such by the likes of you. A southern white cracker, accepting the fact that he is actually speaking a negro form of speech?! Furthermore, I am an expert on linguistics, boob. So stay 'angr y'... 216.78.48.143 ( talk) 04:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
The idea that white SAE is a direct result of African influence is, to be honest, a poor one. Though all modern dialects of English maintain some older features of earlier forms of English, the speech of the American South is one of the most (if not THE most) conservative dialects of English in the world. It is one of the few places in America where some speakers still maintain the distinction between 'for' and 'four'. It is one of the few places in the world where some speakers still maintain the distinction between 'wail' and 'whale'. I know from personal experience that more than one Southern dialect makes active use of 'yonder' (pronounced as 'yunder' or 'yonda'). Though there was certainly some influence from the speech of Africans, I think that the desire to equate Southern dialectal differences with African speech is more a function of a person's stance toward African contributions and less a statement of fact. None of the phonological changes in SAE can be plausibly shown to be the direct result of African languages. The raising of /E/ (as in 'pet') to /I/ (as in 'pit') before nasals is an extremely old process in in Indo-European. There is no evidence that this is the result of African influence. The monophthongization of /ai/ before voiced consonants or a word boundary is also not particularly surprising when the history of English is considered: vowels in English cycle through stages of monophthongization and diphthongization (i.e. [i:] --> [ij] --> [aj] -- [a:]). There is no evidence that this change is the result of African influence ([ai] diphthongs do not appear to be rare in Africa). In regards to African vocabulary in SAE, the number of words is vanishingly small and rarely shared across the region (Okra and Gumbo for Okra, maybe Cooter, Bucker (obsolete), Banjo, and a few dozen words).
Too often, I feel, would-be scholars manifest a desperate need to prove that this or that feature of American culture or speech (whether in the South or elsewhere) can be attributed to specific outside influences. In many cases this is not wrong, but there is no reason to dismiss the obvious possibility that many features of American speech, particularly in a region where English has been spoken continuously for FOUR HUNDRED YEARS, are either archaic retentions of ENGLISH (not Scots, not Irish) or native innovations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.199.58 ( talk) 09:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I think that the relationship between "Southern American English" and "African American Vernacular English" is a very important one and one that it's very important for the public to be informed about if 21st century Americans are going to have any understanding at all of the linguistic and cultural situation in America. The fact is that "SAE" and "AAVE" are so identical in so many of their key features that for there to be so little public awareness of this can only breed severe cultural confusion, particularly for younger Americans. It is a shame that it seems to be such a taboo subject that so few intellectuals are willing to discuss or even consider. If there were more general awareness on the part of the public of these fundamental linguistic and cultural similarities, it would really pose a challenge to commonly held assumptions about race and identity in America.
I think that the question of whether "SAE" is a product of "white" or "black" culture is a moot and destructive one. To say that it is either one or the other is to leave either Southern Whites or African Americans totally culturally disenfranchised. Certainly both ethnic groups have been in very close contact in the South for a few centuries and thus each have had an immense impact on the other in ways that it would be impossible for even the most assiduous linguists and sociologists to untangle and quantify.
Maybe cultural identity is something we can learn to share in America instead of having to vie for "ethnic copyright" in order to feel that we have the right to be who we are and speak the way that we do.
Dr. Iggly ( talk) 04:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
I am puzzled that the section on phonology is restricted to phonemes whereas some of the most striking features of Southern American English have to do with prosody. - S.Camus ( talk) 07:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
my teacher miss murray is from alabama and a third grader kiri makes fun of her accent!! miss murray's southern accent!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.141.105 ( talk) 01:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I want to do some edits in the phonology section. I just want to add some phonetic detail from A Handbook of Varieties of English (Bernd Kortmann, Edgar W. Schneider). I like the way they transcribe the vowels for the various dialects. If anyone has any objections, say so here. Thegryseone ( talk) 15:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to add to the phonology section that it's common for Southern speakers to change the final o sound to a schwa, e.g., Rio Americano becomes "Ria Americana" and piano becomes "piana", etc. Is this still true for today's Southern speakers? I know it was true for North Carolinians and Texans. DBlomgren ( talk) 04:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I CAN speak as a 9th generation North Carolinian, and it's true, we DO say "PianA" not "PianO" 70.249.195.154 ( talk) 15:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)Pastor R
I was puzzled by the second map in pinkish color which purports to be a map of Southern dialect. It puzzles me because it is quoted as being from the work of Labov & Ash, but the map on the Labov site itself is a bit different, as you can see here http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html Dubyavee ( talk) 00:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Some of the examples given for Southern dialect are pretty ridiculous. "I seen her first" really harkens back to some bs cousin lovin episode of the simpsons. People in the South can talk about things other than dogs and trucks and its fairly offensive that so many of these examples fit perfectly into stereotypes of southerners. Jasper ( talk) 21:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
In and around New Orleans, you can hear an accent similar to that of New York City.
There's no source or citation to this quote. It also doesn't seem to be logical. While it does share some of the same structure (non-rhotic), the overall rings and sound to the accent is not similar to that of the New York dialect. The New York dialect was heavily influenced by the Dutch, English and Ashkenazi Jews, all groups that have little to no impact on Yat. Until there's a source for this statement though, it's not appropriate for here. It also gives a vibe off that Yat isn't apart of southern American English which isn't true. Tom Nyj0127 ( talk)
The y'all map in the Newer SAE Grammar section is ridiculous and should be either removed (my preference) or radically modified, on at least two counts:
But even more importantly:
I'm not prepared to say that this map is vandalism or intentionally fraudulent, but it is at best incompetent and grossly inaccurate when compared to its own stated source. It may be an honest attempt to simplify and dramatize the rather complex and undramatic data on which it claims to be based, but if so it has gone much too far. I think the article would be very much better without this map.-- Jim10701 ( talk) 07:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
And they forgot to note that in Pittsburgh they say "y'ens" or something like that. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
In the article Grammar > Shared Features there is one example phrase, "This here's mine and that there is yours." "There" is another form of "here." If "here's" is used then definitely "there's" would be used as well and there is no way "is" would be used at all. The correct sentence should (naturally in my opinion) be, "This here's mine and that there's yours." Believe me, I hear it every single day. ;) Anyone wish to fix that? MagnoliaSouth ( talk) 17:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Does a southern draw come from laziness? Is a southern drawl just a lazy scottish accent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 ( talk) 16:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and of course the influence of inbreeding. All us Southerners are lazy and retarded. We talk this way cuz we jest don't know no better. Christ! Jdcrutch ( talk) 03:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
This simply proves that most bias is regional, not racial... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Papabill45 ( talk • contribs) 01:58, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I usually try hard to have what I want to write figured out, researched, supported and perfectly articulated before I contribute to discussions, but this time I'm not going to do that. This is an issue that matters too much to me personally to keep putting it off. I'm going to write about it now, not only in spite of the fact that I don't have the answers but because I don't have them. I'm actually asking for help figuring this out.
This may well be an issue that has already been wrestled with in earlier discussions here or on the talk pages of other articles, but if it has, the results have not made it into this article yet, and they should have. Here's the problem:
The exceedingly popular assertion that
The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to [aː]
— Wikipedia, Southern American English#Shared features
by speakers of Southern American English is a lie. I'm not saying that nobody in the South does that, but not everybody does, and I'm pretty sure not even a majority do.
I grew up and learned to talk right in the middle of the colored areas on the maps, and neither I nor anybody I ever met pronounces I like Ah ([aː]). I assume that there are Southerners who do, who pronounce I just like Ah, because the stereotype must have some basis in reality, but the stereotype does not fit me or anybody I ever knew.
The problem is that I don't know what IPA symbol could be put at the end of the disputed assertion to indicate accurately how the phoneme is pronounced by Southerners like me. I know it's not [aː]—because that is how I pronounce the word Ah—but I don't know what it is. The actual monophthong is easy to describe, because it's in the middle between the two vowels in /aɪ/, the diphthong it replaces: it's midway between [a] and [ɪ].
So, my question is: Does anybody know what IPA symbol indicates a vowel midway between [a] and [ɪ]? It's a vowel sound that as far as I know is not used anywhere else in English, which is what makes it so hard to find when examples of IPA sounds are given using English words.
I'm going to risk looking foolish by changing something I just wrote. I said before that the sound is midway between [a] and [ɪ], which is nice for relating it to the diphthong used in the "normal" pronunciation, but it doesn't really help anybody who doesn't naturally make the sound understand what it is.
A better way to describe the sound, and one which may be more useful to the true IPA experts (which I clearly am not) who I hope will read this and come to my aid, is that it is the vowel midway between [a] and [æ]. When I watch my mouth as I pronounce the three vowels, my tongue is lower for [a], higher for [æ], and midway between the two for the vowel I use in the words I, high, buy, etc. Nothing else in my mouth or throat or anywhere else I'm aware of (see how scientific I am?) changes between those three vowels except for the height of my tongue; its position doesn't change otherwise.
Maybe what I'm asking for is impossible, which would explain why I've had so much trouble finding it. Maybe it is not within the capacity of the IPA to document distinctions like this, to indicate a sound that may not be used in any other human dialect.
But this is a phonemically significant issue that ought to be addressed. If Southern American English is noteworthy enough to merit a WP article, then the pronunciation of this vowel—probably the single most distinctive characteristic of the dialect, and certainly the most frequently parodied—should be properly documented.
If this vowel is transcribed as [a] or even as [ɑ] or [ɒ], then no distinction is made between how we pronounce the words guide and god, side and sod, etc., and there definitely is a difference. Besides, every time I read the assertion that I pronounce I like Ah, it drives me crazy. It is very frustrating.
HELP!
-- Jim10701 ( talk) 12:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to a vowel between [æː] and [ɑː] that varies with speaker and region
I think the problem is that we SAE speakers are among the few in North America who even use /a/ in speech; despite the familiarity of the character, the sound is unusual (a similar case is /r/, which is the trilled "r", not the /ɹ/ of English). I think Ƶ§œš¹'s point is that there isn't a phonemic distinction between the vowel in "time" and /a/, because /a/ doesn't otherwise occur in American English. Certainly I've heard enough variation among authentic speakers of SAE to make a red smear on the chart, not a red dot, and /a/ is in that smear (although, as you point out, not at its center).-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 13:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I wanted to document and share a few other dialectal differences I've encountered in my experience growing-up in the South. This is entirely anecdotal, and does not necessarily merit inclusion in the article. I do not have any references to support my observations.
Several years ago, I decided to remove my accent and address the issue of my dialect. This was entirely for personal reasons. Overall, I do feel this experience has provided me with an insight into the subject of Southern American English. I should note that this is based upon life in Tennessee; so I'm not sure how accurately these details can be applied to other regions of the South. Here we go:
I realize this portrays Southern American English in a negative light, but that is not my intention. This is entirely common, colloquial usage of words of phrases which I have documented. Many of my own family members regularly speak in this manner, as well as people within professional work environments. The dialect is just so common that no one cares. 70.153.124.225 ( talk) 00:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
One thing I was a bit surprised not to see discussed is use of what I call poetic phrasing in the South. For example, my late maternal grandmother from rural southern Alabama, slightly inland from the Gulf Coast would say, in reference to assessing the safety of eating or drinking something:
"Smell of it first."
On extremely rare occasions, I have heard "Taste of it" as well. I am curious about the origins of this type of phrasing and how often others have encountered it. My mother, a retired English teacher, still uses that phrasing, although it has evolved into "Smell've it first."
I call it poetic phrasing because it seems to echo an old, romantic way of expressing oneself, that one cannot literally smell something; one can only sample the essence of the object in question. I find it interesting to note that if one were to translate the phrase:
"I smelled the milk."
into French, the result is:
"J'ai senti l'odeur du lait." (literally: "I sensed the odor of the milk." or "I felt the odor of the milk."
One theory I have is that it was introduced into the dialect by the poetry of religious hymns that many rural people sang on a regular basis.
I don't hear this type of phrasing anywhere anymore. Does anybody else? If so, could you give an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianmacian ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The same late Southern grandmother I referenced in my section on "poetic" phrasing would say "et" instead of "ate." Has anyone else heard people use that term?
Why is part of California shaded on the map? ~DC We Can Work It Out 06:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I have read that the Cherokee language for example has many of the sounds that are now essential to the Southern American Accent, as do cousins of the Cherokee from the other Five Civilized Tribes. Remember that during the early times of European settlement in the American South that Native American tribes were equal or superior in influence to European settlers (with lots of intermarriage) and thus may have helped to shape early Southern American dialect and pronunciation.
Later on the massive influx of West African slaves may had added another layer of influence to various Southern American accents especially since "house slaves" (as opposed to slaves who worked in the fields) played a major role in raising white children. This may have also allowed West African languages to influence Southern American pronunciation and even the use of some words and grammar.
This is not to discount the European influences on the formation of various Southern American dialects, but neither should these non-European influences be left out.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 23:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
You have to look at the early stages of European settlement when the Native American population was larger than the European--
Also (especially in the South) there was a great deal of intermarriage between early Scottish settlers and Native Americans that went on for generations.
Before Europeans began to outnumber Native Americans, the relations between Whites and Native peoples were completely different, and although sometimes hostile were usually actually very close relationships.
Later when Whites began to outnumber Indians is when the sustained trouble began.
But by then the Southern American accent had become established (with Native American influences) and new European settlers would assimilate into it.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 23:25, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I know that citations are needed. But you have to mention the issue before citations can be hunted down (I don't have time to do it all myself).
Sorry about posting on the top of the talk page, I forgot about that rule.
Best,
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 20:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
P.P.S. I'll do some of the search for citations too, but the " Five Civilized Tribes" (all originally Southeastern Native American tribes, since forcibly relocated to Oklahoma) are the tribes thought to be early influenceers of the Southern American accent.
These tribes are all related to each other and include the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek (also called Muskogee), Chikisaw and Seminole.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 20:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is a quote from one source (again keep in mind that [for about three generations] there was a lot of mixing between Scotts-Irish settlers in the American South and Southern Native Americans, and it was only later that the most serious troubles began once whites started to outnumber Native Americans, but by then the local English accent had been influenced):
"The "Scots-Irish" dialect of southern English mingled with Cherokee and other Native American languages in a band running from western North Carolina to Oklahoma and East Texas, giving rise to the so-called backwoods, or highlands, southern dialect, which is faster and [more] high-pitched than tidewater southern and more nasal than Appalachian English. Some of the phonological features of the backwoods southern dialects undoubtedly come from Cherokee and other Native American languages. The south was the only area in the East where Native Americans mixed significantly with the whites. This occurred mostly with the poorer whites on the frontier. Substrate features include: nasality, tensing of vowels [e] instead of [E] rather than diphthongization as in Tidewater Southern English."
Here is the source (it's from a college course on linguistics, http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test3materials/AmericanDialects.htm ) obviously not usable for Wikipedia by itself, but it shows that there is University-level linguistics research behind this view.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 20:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
You're welcome! I agree that it's not enough for a citation, though. That's why I haven't posted in the main article. There is enough there though, to encourage folks to keep an eye out for more definitive sources, which may eventually turn up.
98.245.148.9 ( talk) 05:50, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
One thing I would like added in is the phrase "ov'ar" or "over thar" for "over there". Not all Southerners use "over yonder". Shadowmane ( talk) 19:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Use of double modals (might could, might should, might would, used to could, etc.--also called "modal stacking") and sometimes even triple modals that involve oughta or a double modal (like might should oughta, or used to could.)
‘Used to could’ is double stacking and double stacking only, no?
91.89.230.62 (
talk)
06:29, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I think it needs to be said that in New Orleans, the phrase "Where y'at?" actually means "How are you?"
-Kristen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.58.210.15 ( talk) 15:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Is circumfix a- . . . -in' still used in newer SAE? Freedom Fighter 1988 ( talk) 23:23, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
The section "Older SAE" refers to
Is there a source from this interpretation? I always thought that "I like to had" simply meant "I almost had" ("liked to" = "almost"). Or to use a rather contrived interpretation that retains the word "to": "I came close to a situation in which I had", in which "to" is a preposition. Anyone know what the sources say? Duoduoduo ( talk) 01:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The section "Shared features" refers to
Is there a source for this interpretation? I always thought that in this usage "done" is not a modal auxiliary, but rather an aspectual auxiliary -- specifying the perfective aspect. Anyone know about this? Duoduoduo ( talk) 01:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"I enjoy my coffee in the morning" is "I enjoy my coffee of the morning [or "mornin' or "mawnin"]. "I like to walk every evening" is "I like to walk of the evening [or "eav'nin" or "eav'nin time"].
Stephen Hyder 98.86.43.83 ( talk) 13:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
SmallCheez ( talk) 10:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised that the section on dialects says "The following dialects were influenced by African languages" and then includes Gullah as a dialect of English. My impression is that Gullah is viewed by linguists as a creole language (as indeed is admitted in the first sentence of the Gullah sub-section here) and not as a dialect of English. I would think that this sub-section should be removed. Comments? Duoduoduo ( talk) 16:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I reverted an edit that added Austin, Texas to the list of cities where the merger of ɛ and ɪ before nasal consonants does not occur. That does need a reliable source. I know that Savannah and New Orleans have distinct varieties of Southern American English, but I don't think Miami does. I am confident that speakers of Southern American English in Miami (and there are still some) do merge ɛ and ɪ before nasal consonants (as a native of Miami, I was 20 years old before I could even hear the distinction, and I still do not make it in speaking without a strong conscious effort). So then, can someone provide a reliable source that states that Miami has/had the same exception to the merger that is found in Savannah and New Orleans? -- Donald Albury 13:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I scanned this article quickly and I noticed that I did not see a section on people dropping the ING from a word. For example, I am goING to the store, is usually said I am goin' to the store. or I was runnING is said I am runnin' in the South, at least in Tennessee. I have heard the same complaint from people in Texas as well. I don't have a source for this and don't know where to even find one but about half of people in the South do tend to drop the ING on a word. Can this be added to the article? This bothers me so much that when I visit California I probably sound like a robot when I speak because I am so self conscience about my Southern accent and try to correct it as much as possible. In fact when I visited California the first time I was in a Von's grocery store and (I had said something,I don't remember what) that the clerk, a man in his sixties asked me if I lived in Tennessee. I was shocked and said, yes, I live in Nashville. I asked him how he knew and he told me he was stationed at Ft. Campbell and could remember clearly how people in that area spoke. I made sure to check my accent after that!-- 99.177.248.92 ( talk) 20:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay I have been to Austin, Texas several times, and NO ONE there prounounces pin and pen the same, or say "y'all" (in contrast to the rest of the state, even in the diverse urban areas of Houston and Dallas). In fact Austin is the only city in TX where you will be hard pressed to find a SAE speaker. People there talk like a combination of Californians, New Yorkers, or perhaps General American speakers from the Midwest. Austin is a different city than the other cities in TX and even in accents it shows. So please put a white circle in Austin on that map. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.96.42.252 ( talk) 22:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
The wording in the section on Louisiana is confusing varieties of French with dialects of English. Cajun French and Louisiana Creole are NOT dialects of English, and shouldn't be discussed in this article at all. A Cajun English dialect does exist, and could be discussed; the same may be true for speakers of Creole but I don't know much about that subject. Here are some sources for Cajun English:
Cheramie, D. M. (1998). “Glad you axed”: A teacher’s guide to Cajun English. http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED420881.pdf. Cox, J. (1992). A study of the linguistic features of Cajun English. http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED352840.pdf.
68.229.134.249 ( talk) 01:43, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
According to this site, all can be pronounced with an unrounded vowel (the vowel of pOlitics): [ɑːɫ] http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/research/gsound/Eng/Database/Phonetics/Englishes/ByWord/Word_001_all.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linda Martens ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Being a native of Houston and having known and worked with Cajuns my whole life, I can, without reservation, state that the categorization of Houston's dialect as Cajun is wholly inaccurate. Even the inclusion of Houston in the Southern American English category is questionable as evidenced by the absense of the monophthongization of /ay/ and /oy/, which are characteristic of SAE [1]. As stated by Thomas, this absense of certain markers may be due to the large immigrant population.
authored by LordOfTribbles ( talk) on 01:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
References
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
In general, Wikipedia's linguistic articles are well-written and solidly supported with citations to scholarly authority. For some reason, the article on Southern American English is an exception. Even statements that seem to have been written by persons familiar with linguistic terms and methods frequently lack any reference to authority. More often, and particularly in the descriptive sections, the article lacks even the appearance of authority, and seems to consist mainly of assertions from personal experience, lacking even the merit of original research, viz., research.
Can we please get a linguist, or at least a serious student of American dialects, to rewrite this article, adding citations to support whatever can be supported by authority, and removing what can't?
Jdcrutch ( talk) 05:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that double negatives aren't covered. Anyone care to tune it up? 66.30.179.108 ( talk) 19:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
On... Having lived through out the SE US, I've run across a pronunciation of the adv. "on" that is unfamiliar to me. In my experience, the o is "long" as in the word "phone" but I have recently heard a coworker pronounce it "ahn" To my knowledge, he has never lived anywhere else but South Carolina. 71.14.96.230 ( talk) 04:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
While I lack citations, at this point, I would like to open a discussion on this specific subject.
The original author has offered the beginning of insight; it is well noted that Southern American English has an arche, or origin, in the many styles and dialects of the United Kingdom, there is a regional gap. In notation, the dialects number on the order of 400 (uncounted, thusly) , including creoles, geographical and sociological influences, portmanteau and linguistic drift. Southern American English is a migratory mix of these factors, not to mention the advent of a "standard intonation and pronunciation" brought about by media sources.
One is born with a "milk tongue", informed by environment and circumstances. When one moves, from region to region, it is a natural psychological occurrence to adapt and fit in; when one begins to lesson in a foreign language, it is best to learn to develop a proper, generalized accent that conforms to the language. Knowledge of the proper culture, customs and basic speaking is certainly more polite than to arrive in another country without, as well as a reflection of time spent to care about diplomacy.
Division of "sub-regions" is a good start, but much too general.
This article requires more than such generalizations; the dialect of Mobile, AL differs distinctly from that of Gastonia, NC, so begs for closer study and resolution. This is dialectical data that might give this article more impact, and certainly more clarity.
Understand, this is not promoted as argument or personal offense. It is merely an invitation to discuss the article further. Bono Fides will be offered, though, by necessity, in First Person.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Mtbruin ( talk) 14:46, 18 January 2015 (UTC)Greggory Hackney
The article claims the following, without citing any sources:
It is unclear that the regional differences between southern and northern American dialects is due to the origins of the settlers. Apparently Guy Bailey claims [4] SAE actually developed after the Civil War, [5] but this is disputed by [6]. More info here: [7]. This paper does attribute subregional variation to population origin differences. The article needs to explain the history in more detail and with better citations, noting areas of disagreement. -- Beland ( talk) 06:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
The section titles included
Two sections with identical titles, and two with non-parallel titles in an otherwise parallel structure. Both "modern" and "newer" are used in the text.
So now the subsections have the following valid links:
Please {{Ping}} me to discuss. -- Thnidu ( talk) 15:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I propose deletion of the topmost image in the article ( File:SouthernEnglishMap.jpg). At best it is synthesis of several sources, but in my opinion it doesn't even represent those sources very well. It appears to largely represent one editor's opinion, the creator of the image. That editor is Nomatterwhereigo ( talk · contribs), who hasn't edited in over three years. Sundayclose ( talk) 00:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I oppose deletion, as the image source is from the Telsur page here
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html
which also reflects other maps of other studies from the Univ. of PA Telsur project
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap2.GIF Dubyavee ( talk) 06:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
At least two of the major articles on the stub Ozark English more or less equate "Ozark English" with "Appalachian English":
I would just go ahead and boldy merge it myself, but I'm a bit stumped by the three merging options: to Southern American English, to Older Southern American English, or to Appalachian English. Any thoughts? Thanks Wolfdog ( talk) 01:20, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
An anon has just changed
Thus, a modern Southeastern super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and southeastern New Mexico, as well as a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio.
to
Thus, a modern Southeastern super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and southeastern New Mexico, as well as a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, Southern Ohio, and Northwestern Oklahoma.
Is that what the source says? As far as I can see, the reference ( [8]) doesn't say most of (or anything) what we claim it does. Is it essentially a reference falsification? Peter238 ( talk) 08:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
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The way this article is worded makes it sound like Southern American English is barely present in Oklahoma, while the maps make it seem as if the accent is present in the majority of the state.
The Southeastern Super Region map is seemingly inconsistent with the following two statements:
"[Southern American English] is marginally documented (often, as a South Midland accent) throughout Oklahoma, the eastern half of Kansas, Greater St. Louis, metropolitan Decatur in Illinois, metropolitan Indianapolis in Indiana, the Miami Valley in Ohio, the remainder of West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and southwestern and southern Pennsylvania."
"Thus, a modern Southeastern dialectal super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio."
This caught my attention because I am from Oklahoma and I find it beyond a stretch to say that Southern American English is only marginally present in Oklahoma. I realize that anecdotal or personal evidence is not encyclopedia-worthy, but there is an obvious disparity between the maps and the description of Oklahoma's accent in the article. Either the maps are more accurate or the text in the article is more accurate regarding Oklahoma; my own experiences tell me the maps are more accurate. I see that previous comments also question the accuracy of the text and I would like to see this get settled.
Thanks!
Down yonder ( talk) 04:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you need to make some edits regarding Oklahoma. Oklahoma is home to both r-ful(upland) and R-less(coastal) southern dialects. Southern American English is prominent in Oklahoma. Only in the northern edge will you find south midland. It is by no means consistent with what you hear in Kansas. This is especially true in the southeastern quarter of the state where coastal southern is prominent. To suggest that the southern diealect is a weaker version is wrong on so many levels. Please edit this section. Oklahoma should be included with the rest of the southern states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryan74 ( talk • contribs) 03:34, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Jakeroberts27: Hi. What I tried to give with the map you deleted was specific cities that had been identified with varying degrees of "Southern dialect" character. I'd be happy to mend the map if you give me specifics on what you found confusing. The ANAE map that you replaced it with gives dialects of the whole country, which is unnecessary and even more likely confusing to readers. Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 13:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Did the person who wrote the "Grammar" section just choose random examples out of Huckleberry Finn or something? Yes, we commonly say "y'all", but that's about it. I don't know about the other southern states, but at least in North Carolina, it's basically just some elderly people you'll ever hear using any of those other ridiculous examples coming from. Though I live in one of the metro areas, if that's of any relevance...
Hey, I'm from Maryland and we have that stereotypical " Huckleberry Finn" in parts, but also My Cousin Vinny types...just a melting pot really...anyway, there is southern dialect throughout the entire state of MD, not just "extreme southern parts" as mentioned in this article...but because we have large cities throughout the state, they overshadow that (though some of them are even southern-like)...we don't like being tied down to one region, North or South, just included in both! Now for the yackety-yack: MD is pretty much the only state that celebrates north & south. We have N & S accents, N & S bugs and trees, N & S holiday traditions, style, food, attitudes...way back in the day our state was both for slavery (South) and for the union (North), so we've towed the line between the two regions since the beginning...a NYer will always say we sound country while a NCer will say we're yankees...we can't win! So why do both regions either neglect to include us in these articles or are hesitant to include us? We have to fit in somewhere...by the way, I just looked at the "y'all map" and it surprises me. I use yall on a regular basis...where yall going...what yall wanna eat...how yall doing...seems pretty common. I thought everybody used that, but I guess not. It may depend on race because many black folk, no matter the region, use it. Done with my babble now. Good day. Chic3z ( talk) 18:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I can't believe there is nothing in this article about words like "be". In the South, this word seems to be realized as [bəi] (like in Cockney). This applies to other words with /iː/ as well. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 20:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
That wasn't very specific. I guess that's why I was confused. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 21:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It's just my opinion. Maybe other people don't feel the same way. I just like to compare dialects. It helps me understand them better. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 01:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay guys, I seriously don't know why everyone seems to think Southerners call ever soda they drink "coke", but we don't. Nobody I've ever talked to from Louisiana (my home state) nor any of my friends from Alabama, Arkansas, or Mississippi have ever and don't know anyone who has ever reffered to anything besides Coke as Coke. We all either say "soda" or "soft drink." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 ( talk) 22:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
References don't mean much when you've been an eyewitness yourself. If I saw a cow floating through the streets I would certainly start question gravity, I couldn't care how many books you threw at me. I'll reiterate what I said; I nor no one I know has ever referred to any soft drink other than Coke as Coke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 ( talk) 05:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
You realize how vehemently retarded that is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 ( talk) 06:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
In western North Carolina we used to call all soft drinks "co'cola"---I did it growing up--admittedly a long time ago-- as did everyone around me, I have heard that elsewhere in the the South since--maybe that's where the idea came from that we call all soft drinks "coke"---I have heard that too. 70.243.143.105 ( talk) 16:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Pastor R
This is a dumb argument, the south is not monolithic! Some parts do call everything Coke, some call everything Soda. I've definitely seen research(though I can't site it at the moment) where people have graphed this for the entire US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youzwan ( talk • contribs) 21:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I think we should split the Southern American English article into an academic rendition and a more popular rendition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirk.Hazen ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
For the purpose of collecting together topics which the general public would like to read about on to one page, and then collecting together topics more interesting to academics on another. Kirk.Hazen ( talk) 19:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Southerners seem to pronounce their r-colored vowel more "heavily". I know "heavily" is not a good way to describe it, but I can't think of any other way to put it. It sounds similar to how they pronounce it in Ireland and the West Country of England. In my opinion, this is one of the most salient features of the dialect. I'm sure someone else here knows what I mean. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 02:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
My ears tell me that the diphthong in words like like is often pronounced as [ɑɪ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 02:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This article says the diphthong becomes [əɪ] before voiceless consonants. Maybe that is true for some speakers, but I here [ɑɪ] more often. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 20:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I am well aware of that. However, the article doesn't say [ɑɪ] occurs before voiceless consonants for "some speakers", does it? 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 20:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Now I found a source for what I was talking about. On page 312 of A Handbook of Varieties of English by Bernd Kortmann and Edgar W. Schneider, it reads:
Glide weakening was traditionally absent on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay, around the Pamlico Sound, and in the Low Country of South Carolina and Georgia. In the former two areas, backing of the nucleus occurred instead in all contexts. Forms such as [ɑːe] were usual, with [ɒːe] and [ɐɑe] occurring sporadically. Backing occurred for PRIZE in the Low Country. Such backing also occurs widely in the South before voiceless consonants (PRICE) where that that context remains diphthongal. Another variation reported from older speech in Tidewater and Piedmont Virginia and the South Carolina/Georgia Low Country for contexts before voiceless consonants is [ɐi], with a higher nucleus. Acoustic analyses indicate that only some speakers from the those areas showed [ɐi].
There you have it. I find the PRICE backing before voiceless consonants to be a salient feature of SAE. It seems to me that it's very common. Thegryseone ( talk) 02:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 03:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
One thing I have noticed that many SAE speakers I have listened to do is put a t in between the l and s in words like else. Thus else becomes /ɛlʦ/. I think this "intrusive t" (that's what I'll call it, anyway) occurs every time an orthographic l is followed by an orthographic s for some speakers. I don't know if ANAE mentions this or not. Then again, ANAE seems to concentrate on vowels mostly. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 00:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I realize that it seems trivial, but who's to say which features of a dialect are important? I have observed, after spending much time in the South, that this feature seems more common there than elsewhere, but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 18:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Such as Alaska. But I think you can get too nitpicky about what's SAE and what's not, because the "intrusive t" is probably just a lisp. I only know one person who does this. ~Jonathan ( talk) 11:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)"but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well."
No, you're wrong. The "intrusive t" I'm referring to has nothing to do with lisping. A lisp is a speech impediment. As the lisp article states, "Stereotypically, people with a lisp are unable to pronounce sibilants (like the sound [s]), and replace them with interdentals (like the sound [θ]), though there are actually several kinds of lisp." The phenomenon I'm referring to is not a speech impediment. I really don't understand what you mean when you say I can get "too nitpicky". Labov et al. define SAE by the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] before obstruents. In some areas, there is glide deletion of /aɪ/ before voiceless consonants more than half the time. This happens in two areas: the Inland South in the Appalachian Region, and the Texas South in central and west Texas, says Labov. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 21:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
User 24.185.110.186 seems intent on changing a specific paragraph in the article to be incorrect. He/she was reverted twice by Ajd and me on 15 April 2008 and was previously reverted twice by Angr and Aeusoes1 on 28 December 2007. I have added a warning to the user's talk page (encouraging use of sources and discouraging OR). ++ Arx Fortis ( talk) 07:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
There really doesn't seem to be much information on the Charleston accent on Wikipedia or anywhere on the internet for that matter. I would love to know more about it, but I just can't find anything. I realize it is fading away, but I just want to know what it used to sound like. Can anyone help me? 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 01:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Im just very curious the map for the southern dialect in my opinion and many of my friends we are quite puzzled why Kentucky or Oklahoma is not fully included. yes kentucky may have been a border state but most kentuckians like (myself) & most northerners will tell you the whole state deserves to be in their from paducah kentucky to ashland kentucky is very southern to the core.June 19 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Featherhawk 81 ( talk • contribs) 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The statements you make about Oklahoma are utterly false. Garth Brooks may not have a strong Oklahoma accent, but he is not the norm in Oklahoma. Oklahomans from all areas of the state speak with a variation of the southern dialect. In fact, the accent in many cases is stronger than you will hear in most parts of Texas. This is especially true in the southeastern portions of the state. I don't know what "west midlands" is and it doesn't make much sense considering Oklahoma's settlement pattern and geographic location. Oklahoma has always been a the western most outpost of the south and has always been primarily fed by settlement from other southern states. Tulsa is situated in the Ozarks and is almost in Arkansas. There is nothing "midwestern" or "midland" about it. I actually contacted the organization that produced the studies behind these maps and they admitted that they had not sampled people north of the Oklahoma City metro. They in turn left that area blank. I can assure you that people living in Stilwater do not sound like people from Nebraska.
Why doesn't the map at the top of this article that shows the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] include southern Illinois, southern Indiana, southern Ohio, much more of Missouri, much more of Oklahoma, and some of Kansas? I know linguists have studied these regions. Kurath and McDavid called these areas the South Midland. I just don't understand why they're not included. Thegryseone ( talk) 21:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
But that certainly doesn't mean that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ doesn't take place in those regions, correct? It merely means that Labov et al. didn't study those regions, which is understandable, because there aren't any major cities in that area. Thegryseone ( talk) 21:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I was overgeneralizing. Excuse me. Cincinnati would be the only one. I'm just saying that I don't think that map is completely accurate. Thegryseone ( talk) 23:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
you know im from southern ohio & I speak with as southern dialect Dayton,Ohio,and Middletown Ohio and I lived hear my whole life & most people I know have some type of southern dialect you know most of the people that live around here came from eastern ky &tn as early as world war 1 for work we only live like 30 minutes from the mason-dixon line —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.101.131 ( talk) 02:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
If anyone has ever been to Portsmouth,Ironton,Hillsboro,Jackson,Greenfield,Wilmington or Washington Courthouse.You can deff tell that this part of Ohio has a very comparable almost exact culture to eastern kentucky,& the lower part of west virginia.During the American civil war this part of Ohio was actually torn against brother against like most of Southern Appalachia due to the fact most of the original settlers in the early 1800s came from Virginia,Kentucky & Tennessee to this area.Now southwestern Ohio like Dayton,Middletown,Hamilton is also heavily influenced with a Southern Midland accent due to the extremely large amount of Southern Appalachain people that have completely changed the southwestern Ohio accent since the begining of world war 1 & 2 absorbing the appalachain dialect with the local midland dialect & intermarrying with the local people from way back then till now transforming the area with a hybrid type of speech that is very different then that of central or northern Ohio & more comparable to a southern midland dialect especially in your rural areas of this part of the state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.108.171.164 ( talk) 21:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC) Why isn't southern ohio on the southern dialect map?Obviously you didn't spent alot time researching the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.23.127.41 ( talk) 17:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Can someone find a formant plot for SAE? Thanks. Thegryseone ( talk) 22:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)The southern portion of ohio is southern appalchain in culture in all forms.
I read here about something called a constricted r. Can someone explain to me what that is? Thegryseone ( talk) 03:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This section states:
I'm not contesting the statement, but these citations are atrocious. Does anyone have any better resources on the matter? Halogenated ( talk) 17:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Well hello y'all. I've tidied up the grammar section & removed the "word use" section. These examples of dialect words belong in the regional vocabularies article, which is more of a glossary of words, whereas SAA should focus on Southern grammar & pronunciation. I have moved to the regional vocab article any examples from this article there which were not there already. I did not move the citations since the other words on that page do not have citatons, but if anybody wants to retrieve the references, they can be found from the history. I have also added a link to the regional vocab article in the SAA article & vice-versa.
I've rearranged the grammar into a slightly more logical order, keeping similar points (e.g. past tense forms) close together. Also merged a few points on the list that were basically the same, & split a few which were saying different things. Weasel Fetlocks ( talk) 16:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the reference that "y'all" is not used often in Newrer SAE. I can not speak for the rest of the peoplefrom other southern states, but I will say in Texas that we use the contraction quite often. I even use in my emails at work. If anyone from other southern states have the smae opinion as I do, please share them. Bigt2448 ( talk) 15:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma and I'm wondering if this is mostly used in the southern portion of the state. I rarely hear of this and when I hear someone say it, chances are they're from Texas, or the extreme southern areas in Oklahoma. Most of us up hear either say "you" or "you guys". Michelle1228 ( talk)
It has been my observation as a southerner that we nearly always use "y'all" as the plural of "you", and "you all" only in situations where any speaker of English might use it, to emphasize that all in the group addressed are included, just as one might say "we all". 107.133.158.129 ( talk) 04:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
When I read "turning wasn't into won't," I wondered if the writer meant "wadn't" (where the d is a like glottal stop followed by a nasal n).
And are the pronunciations (here represented by my redneck spelling) "dudn't" for "doesn't" and "idn't" for "isn't" generally used in Southern American English? If so, please add to the article. DBlomgren ( talk) 05:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it is used. I use it when I slip back into the accent, and my grandfather and father in law both use it frequently.
JAGUITAR
(Rawr)
18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 03:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed that a lot of speakers in the South use whenever where speakers in other dialect regions would use when. For example, one time I heard a guy say, "Whenever I was twelve years old, we would play baseball a lot." Even educated Southerners seem to do this, which tells me that it is probably just part of the dialect. Sometimes I am so tempted to say, "What do you mean whenever you were twelve years old? You were twelve years old when you were twelve years old." However, I haven't said that yet, because I don't want to be an asshole. Thegryseone ( talk) 17:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
In the areas around Hobbs, Roswell, and Clovis New Mexico there is a strong southern-Texas influenced-accent.
Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj ( talk) 02:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It should also be noted that the residents of Tangier Island in Virginia's Chesapeake Bay have a unique accent that is very old and appears to be completely unrelated to the traditional Southern accent. Although the accent on Tangier Island appears to be fading as younger residents have grown up with access to mass media and numerous mainland tourists.
Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj ( talk) 02:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I live in the South, and unless you go into an extremely rural area, you will never hear any of that if you live in a town with more than 1000 people (minus replacing got with have). Thats more of a redneck accent than a southern accent, and their are differences. Its like comparing the average northern accent to the Boston accent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.190.238 ( talk) 16:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
southern rural ohio,illinois & indianna have a southern culture as well your map im sorry but your map super waaaaaay off I live in jackson ohio & we have a southern culture here
Of course the dialect of Southern American English owes it origins to African American Vernacular English. Ya'll realize that of course. 216.78.55.7 ( talk) 10:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Certainly back and forth. However the origins of the "Southern slur," were from the African slaves, attempting to speak a forced language. The white southerners, especially the children, picked up this slang dialect which quickly spread throughout the south with the migrations of the mainly uneducated southern population, the wealthy plantation families among those picking up the vernacular and calling it their own. 216.78.50.116 ( talk) 09:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Self evidence. 216.78.54.40 ( talk) 09:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I can do better. Everything has an origin. SAE had it's origin precisely in the southern colonies. It was spoken nowhere else. A huge influx of African slaves were present in the southern colonies at the time of SAE origin. Nowhere else was this particular influx present. This specific addition into the original English dialect, which was a combination of somewhat similar Scot-English, Irish-English, and Anglo-Saxon English, was being spoken in the northern colonies without that particular addition. The result? A completely different dialect in the north than SAE. The remaining question? What was the only addition missing from the sum of Northern American English? There lies your answer. Simple evident logic would be the 'reference' point. 216.78.58.87 ( talk) 10:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
This is merely a talk page you moron. I added nothing to any article. I also do not expect my mere opinion, correct as it is, to be accepted as such by the likes of you. A southern white cracker, accepting the fact that he is actually speaking a negro form of speech?! Furthermore, I am an expert on linguistics, boob. So stay 'angr y'... 216.78.48.143 ( talk) 04:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
The idea that white SAE is a direct result of African influence is, to be honest, a poor one. Though all modern dialects of English maintain some older features of earlier forms of English, the speech of the American South is one of the most (if not THE most) conservative dialects of English in the world. It is one of the few places in America where some speakers still maintain the distinction between 'for' and 'four'. It is one of the few places in the world where some speakers still maintain the distinction between 'wail' and 'whale'. I know from personal experience that more than one Southern dialect makes active use of 'yonder' (pronounced as 'yunder' or 'yonda'). Though there was certainly some influence from the speech of Africans, I think that the desire to equate Southern dialectal differences with African speech is more a function of a person's stance toward African contributions and less a statement of fact. None of the phonological changes in SAE can be plausibly shown to be the direct result of African languages. The raising of /E/ (as in 'pet') to /I/ (as in 'pit') before nasals is an extremely old process in in Indo-European. There is no evidence that this is the result of African influence. The monophthongization of /ai/ before voiced consonants or a word boundary is also not particularly surprising when the history of English is considered: vowels in English cycle through stages of monophthongization and diphthongization (i.e. [i:] --> [ij] --> [aj] -- [a:]). There is no evidence that this change is the result of African influence ([ai] diphthongs do not appear to be rare in Africa). In regards to African vocabulary in SAE, the number of words is vanishingly small and rarely shared across the region (Okra and Gumbo for Okra, maybe Cooter, Bucker (obsolete), Banjo, and a few dozen words).
Too often, I feel, would-be scholars manifest a desperate need to prove that this or that feature of American culture or speech (whether in the South or elsewhere) can be attributed to specific outside influences. In many cases this is not wrong, but there is no reason to dismiss the obvious possibility that many features of American speech, particularly in a region where English has been spoken continuously for FOUR HUNDRED YEARS, are either archaic retentions of ENGLISH (not Scots, not Irish) or native innovations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.199.58 ( talk) 09:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I think that the relationship between "Southern American English" and "African American Vernacular English" is a very important one and one that it's very important for the public to be informed about if 21st century Americans are going to have any understanding at all of the linguistic and cultural situation in America. The fact is that "SAE" and "AAVE" are so identical in so many of their key features that for there to be so little public awareness of this can only breed severe cultural confusion, particularly for younger Americans. It is a shame that it seems to be such a taboo subject that so few intellectuals are willing to discuss or even consider. If there were more general awareness on the part of the public of these fundamental linguistic and cultural similarities, it would really pose a challenge to commonly held assumptions about race and identity in America.
I think that the question of whether "SAE" is a product of "white" or "black" culture is a moot and destructive one. To say that it is either one or the other is to leave either Southern Whites or African Americans totally culturally disenfranchised. Certainly both ethnic groups have been in very close contact in the South for a few centuries and thus each have had an immense impact on the other in ways that it would be impossible for even the most assiduous linguists and sociologists to untangle and quantify.
Maybe cultural identity is something we can learn to share in America instead of having to vie for "ethnic copyright" in order to feel that we have the right to be who we are and speak the way that we do.
Dr. Iggly ( talk) 04:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
I am puzzled that the section on phonology is restricted to phonemes whereas some of the most striking features of Southern American English have to do with prosody. - S.Camus ( talk) 07:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
my teacher miss murray is from alabama and a third grader kiri makes fun of her accent!! miss murray's southern accent!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.141.105 ( talk) 01:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I want to do some edits in the phonology section. I just want to add some phonetic detail from A Handbook of Varieties of English (Bernd Kortmann, Edgar W. Schneider). I like the way they transcribe the vowels for the various dialects. If anyone has any objections, say so here. Thegryseone ( talk) 15:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to add to the phonology section that it's common for Southern speakers to change the final o sound to a schwa, e.g., Rio Americano becomes "Ria Americana" and piano becomes "piana", etc. Is this still true for today's Southern speakers? I know it was true for North Carolinians and Texans. DBlomgren ( talk) 04:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I CAN speak as a 9th generation North Carolinian, and it's true, we DO say "PianA" not "PianO" 70.249.195.154 ( talk) 15:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)Pastor R
I was puzzled by the second map in pinkish color which purports to be a map of Southern dialect. It puzzles me because it is quoted as being from the work of Labov & Ash, but the map on the Labov site itself is a bit different, as you can see here http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html Dubyavee ( talk) 00:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Some of the examples given for Southern dialect are pretty ridiculous. "I seen her first" really harkens back to some bs cousin lovin episode of the simpsons. People in the South can talk about things other than dogs and trucks and its fairly offensive that so many of these examples fit perfectly into stereotypes of southerners. Jasper ( talk) 21:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
In and around New Orleans, you can hear an accent similar to that of New York City.
There's no source or citation to this quote. It also doesn't seem to be logical. While it does share some of the same structure (non-rhotic), the overall rings and sound to the accent is not similar to that of the New York dialect. The New York dialect was heavily influenced by the Dutch, English and Ashkenazi Jews, all groups that have little to no impact on Yat. Until there's a source for this statement though, it's not appropriate for here. It also gives a vibe off that Yat isn't apart of southern American English which isn't true. Tom Nyj0127 ( talk)
The y'all map in the Newer SAE Grammar section is ridiculous and should be either removed (my preference) or radically modified, on at least two counts:
But even more importantly:
I'm not prepared to say that this map is vandalism or intentionally fraudulent, but it is at best incompetent and grossly inaccurate when compared to its own stated source. It may be an honest attempt to simplify and dramatize the rather complex and undramatic data on which it claims to be based, but if so it has gone much too far. I think the article would be very much better without this map.-- Jim10701 ( talk) 07:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
And they forgot to note that in Pittsburgh they say "y'ens" or something like that. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
In the article Grammar > Shared Features there is one example phrase, "This here's mine and that there is yours." "There" is another form of "here." If "here's" is used then definitely "there's" would be used as well and there is no way "is" would be used at all. The correct sentence should (naturally in my opinion) be, "This here's mine and that there's yours." Believe me, I hear it every single day. ;) Anyone wish to fix that? MagnoliaSouth ( talk) 17:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Does a southern draw come from laziness? Is a southern drawl just a lazy scottish accent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 ( talk) 16:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and of course the influence of inbreeding. All us Southerners are lazy and retarded. We talk this way cuz we jest don't know no better. Christ! Jdcrutch ( talk) 03:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
This simply proves that most bias is regional, not racial... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Papabill45 ( talk • contribs) 01:58, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I usually try hard to have what I want to write figured out, researched, supported and perfectly articulated before I contribute to discussions, but this time I'm not going to do that. This is an issue that matters too much to me personally to keep putting it off. I'm going to write about it now, not only in spite of the fact that I don't have the answers but because I don't have them. I'm actually asking for help figuring this out.
This may well be an issue that has already been wrestled with in earlier discussions here or on the talk pages of other articles, but if it has, the results have not made it into this article yet, and they should have. Here's the problem:
The exceedingly popular assertion that
The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to [aː]
— Wikipedia, Southern American English#Shared features
by speakers of Southern American English is a lie. I'm not saying that nobody in the South does that, but not everybody does, and I'm pretty sure not even a majority do.
I grew up and learned to talk right in the middle of the colored areas on the maps, and neither I nor anybody I ever met pronounces I like Ah ([aː]). I assume that there are Southerners who do, who pronounce I just like Ah, because the stereotype must have some basis in reality, but the stereotype does not fit me or anybody I ever knew.
The problem is that I don't know what IPA symbol could be put at the end of the disputed assertion to indicate accurately how the phoneme is pronounced by Southerners like me. I know it's not [aː]—because that is how I pronounce the word Ah—but I don't know what it is. The actual monophthong is easy to describe, because it's in the middle between the two vowels in /aɪ/, the diphthong it replaces: it's midway between [a] and [ɪ].
So, my question is: Does anybody know what IPA symbol indicates a vowel midway between [a] and [ɪ]? It's a vowel sound that as far as I know is not used anywhere else in English, which is what makes it so hard to find when examples of IPA sounds are given using English words.
I'm going to risk looking foolish by changing something I just wrote. I said before that the sound is midway between [a] and [ɪ], which is nice for relating it to the diphthong used in the "normal" pronunciation, but it doesn't really help anybody who doesn't naturally make the sound understand what it is.
A better way to describe the sound, and one which may be more useful to the true IPA experts (which I clearly am not) who I hope will read this and come to my aid, is that it is the vowel midway between [a] and [æ]. When I watch my mouth as I pronounce the three vowels, my tongue is lower for [a], higher for [æ], and midway between the two for the vowel I use in the words I, high, buy, etc. Nothing else in my mouth or throat or anywhere else I'm aware of (see how scientific I am?) changes between those three vowels except for the height of my tongue; its position doesn't change otherwise.
Maybe what I'm asking for is impossible, which would explain why I've had so much trouble finding it. Maybe it is not within the capacity of the IPA to document distinctions like this, to indicate a sound that may not be used in any other human dialect.
But this is a phonemically significant issue that ought to be addressed. If Southern American English is noteworthy enough to merit a WP article, then the pronunciation of this vowel—probably the single most distinctive characteristic of the dialect, and certainly the most frequently parodied—should be properly documented.
If this vowel is transcribed as [a] or even as [ɑ] or [ɒ], then no distinction is made between how we pronounce the words guide and god, side and sod, etc., and there definitely is a difference. Besides, every time I read the assertion that I pronounce I like Ah, it drives me crazy. It is very frustrating.
HELP!
-- Jim10701 ( talk) 12:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to a vowel between [æː] and [ɑː] that varies with speaker and region
I think the problem is that we SAE speakers are among the few in North America who even use /a/ in speech; despite the familiarity of the character, the sound is unusual (a similar case is /r/, which is the trilled "r", not the /ɹ/ of English). I think Ƶ§œš¹'s point is that there isn't a phonemic distinction between the vowel in "time" and /a/, because /a/ doesn't otherwise occur in American English. Certainly I've heard enough variation among authentic speakers of SAE to make a red smear on the chart, not a red dot, and /a/ is in that smear (although, as you point out, not at its center).-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 13:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I wanted to document and share a few other dialectal differences I've encountered in my experience growing-up in the South. This is entirely anecdotal, and does not necessarily merit inclusion in the article. I do not have any references to support my observations.
Several years ago, I decided to remove my accent and address the issue of my dialect. This was entirely for personal reasons. Overall, I do feel this experience has provided me with an insight into the subject of Southern American English. I should note that this is based upon life in Tennessee; so I'm not sure how accurately these details can be applied to other regions of the South. Here we go:
I realize this portrays Southern American English in a negative light, but that is not my intention. This is entirely common, colloquial usage of words of phrases which I have documented. Many of my own family members regularly speak in this manner, as well as people within professional work environments. The dialect is just so common that no one cares. 70.153.124.225 ( talk) 00:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
One thing I was a bit surprised not to see discussed is use of what I call poetic phrasing in the South. For example, my late maternal grandmother from rural southern Alabama, slightly inland from the Gulf Coast would say, in reference to assessing the safety of eating or drinking something:
"Smell of it first."
On extremely rare occasions, I have heard "Taste of it" as well. I am curious about the origins of this type of phrasing and how often others have encountered it. My mother, a retired English teacher, still uses that phrasing, although it has evolved into "Smell've it first."
I call it poetic phrasing because it seems to echo an old, romantic way of expressing oneself, that one cannot literally smell something; one can only sample the essence of the object in question. I find it interesting to note that if one were to translate the phrase:
"I smelled the milk."
into French, the result is:
"J'ai senti l'odeur du lait." (literally: "I sensed the odor of the milk." or "I felt the odor of the milk."
One theory I have is that it was introduced into the dialect by the poetry of religious hymns that many rural people sang on a regular basis.
I don't hear this type of phrasing anywhere anymore. Does anybody else? If so, could you give an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianmacian ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The same late Southern grandmother I referenced in my section on "poetic" phrasing would say "et" instead of "ate." Has anyone else heard people use that term?
Why is part of California shaded on the map? ~DC We Can Work It Out 06:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I have read that the Cherokee language for example has many of the sounds that are now essential to the Southern American Accent, as do cousins of the Cherokee from the other Five Civilized Tribes. Remember that during the early times of European settlement in the American South that Native American tribes were equal or superior in influence to European settlers (with lots of intermarriage) and thus may have helped to shape early Southern American dialect and pronunciation.
Later on the massive influx of West African slaves may had added another layer of influence to various Southern American accents especially since "house slaves" (as opposed to slaves who worked in the fields) played a major role in raising white children. This may have also allowed West African languages to influence Southern American pronunciation and even the use of some words and grammar.
This is not to discount the European influences on the formation of various Southern American dialects, but neither should these non-European influences be left out.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 23:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
You have to look at the early stages of European settlement when the Native American population was larger than the European--
Also (especially in the South) there was a great deal of intermarriage between early Scottish settlers and Native Americans that went on for generations.
Before Europeans began to outnumber Native Americans, the relations between Whites and Native peoples were completely different, and although sometimes hostile were usually actually very close relationships.
Later when Whites began to outnumber Indians is when the sustained trouble began.
But by then the Southern American accent had become established (with Native American influences) and new European settlers would assimilate into it.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 23:25, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I know that citations are needed. But you have to mention the issue before citations can be hunted down (I don't have time to do it all myself).
Sorry about posting on the top of the talk page, I forgot about that rule.
Best,
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 20:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
P.P.S. I'll do some of the search for citations too, but the " Five Civilized Tribes" (all originally Southeastern Native American tribes, since forcibly relocated to Oklahoma) are the tribes thought to be early influenceers of the Southern American accent.
These tribes are all related to each other and include the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek (also called Muskogee), Chikisaw and Seminole.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 20:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is a quote from one source (again keep in mind that [for about three generations] there was a lot of mixing between Scotts-Irish settlers in the American South and Southern Native Americans, and it was only later that the most serious troubles began once whites started to outnumber Native Americans, but by then the local English accent had been influenced):
"The "Scots-Irish" dialect of southern English mingled with Cherokee and other Native American languages in a band running from western North Carolina to Oklahoma and East Texas, giving rise to the so-called backwoods, or highlands, southern dialect, which is faster and [more] high-pitched than tidewater southern and more nasal than Appalachian English. Some of the phonological features of the backwoods southern dialects undoubtedly come from Cherokee and other Native American languages. The south was the only area in the East where Native Americans mixed significantly with the whites. This occurred mostly with the poorer whites on the frontier. Substrate features include: nasality, tensing of vowels [e] instead of [E] rather than diphthongization as in Tidewater Southern English."
Here is the source (it's from a college course on linguistics, http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test3materials/AmericanDialects.htm ) obviously not usable for Wikipedia by itself, but it shows that there is University-level linguistics research behind this view.
98.245.150.162 ( talk) 20:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
You're welcome! I agree that it's not enough for a citation, though. That's why I haven't posted in the main article. There is enough there though, to encourage folks to keep an eye out for more definitive sources, which may eventually turn up.
98.245.148.9 ( talk) 05:50, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
One thing I would like added in is the phrase "ov'ar" or "over thar" for "over there". Not all Southerners use "over yonder". Shadowmane ( talk) 19:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Use of double modals (might could, might should, might would, used to could, etc.--also called "modal stacking") and sometimes even triple modals that involve oughta or a double modal (like might should oughta, or used to could.)
‘Used to could’ is double stacking and double stacking only, no?
91.89.230.62 (
talk)
06:29, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I think it needs to be said that in New Orleans, the phrase "Where y'at?" actually means "How are you?"
-Kristen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.58.210.15 ( talk) 15:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Is circumfix a- . . . -in' still used in newer SAE? Freedom Fighter 1988 ( talk) 23:23, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
The section "Older SAE" refers to
Is there a source from this interpretation? I always thought that "I like to had" simply meant "I almost had" ("liked to" = "almost"). Or to use a rather contrived interpretation that retains the word "to": "I came close to a situation in which I had", in which "to" is a preposition. Anyone know what the sources say? Duoduoduo ( talk) 01:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The section "Shared features" refers to
Is there a source for this interpretation? I always thought that in this usage "done" is not a modal auxiliary, but rather an aspectual auxiliary -- specifying the perfective aspect. Anyone know about this? Duoduoduo ( talk) 01:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"I enjoy my coffee in the morning" is "I enjoy my coffee of the morning [or "mornin' or "mawnin"]. "I like to walk every evening" is "I like to walk of the evening [or "eav'nin" or "eav'nin time"].
Stephen Hyder 98.86.43.83 ( talk) 13:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
SmallCheez ( talk) 10:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised that the section on dialects says "The following dialects were influenced by African languages" and then includes Gullah as a dialect of English. My impression is that Gullah is viewed by linguists as a creole language (as indeed is admitted in the first sentence of the Gullah sub-section here) and not as a dialect of English. I would think that this sub-section should be removed. Comments? Duoduoduo ( talk) 16:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I reverted an edit that added Austin, Texas to the list of cities where the merger of ɛ and ɪ before nasal consonants does not occur. That does need a reliable source. I know that Savannah and New Orleans have distinct varieties of Southern American English, but I don't think Miami does. I am confident that speakers of Southern American English in Miami (and there are still some) do merge ɛ and ɪ before nasal consonants (as a native of Miami, I was 20 years old before I could even hear the distinction, and I still do not make it in speaking without a strong conscious effort). So then, can someone provide a reliable source that states that Miami has/had the same exception to the merger that is found in Savannah and New Orleans? -- Donald Albury 13:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I scanned this article quickly and I noticed that I did not see a section on people dropping the ING from a word. For example, I am goING to the store, is usually said I am goin' to the store. or I was runnING is said I am runnin' in the South, at least in Tennessee. I have heard the same complaint from people in Texas as well. I don't have a source for this and don't know where to even find one but about half of people in the South do tend to drop the ING on a word. Can this be added to the article? This bothers me so much that when I visit California I probably sound like a robot when I speak because I am so self conscience about my Southern accent and try to correct it as much as possible. In fact when I visited California the first time I was in a Von's grocery store and (I had said something,I don't remember what) that the clerk, a man in his sixties asked me if I lived in Tennessee. I was shocked and said, yes, I live in Nashville. I asked him how he knew and he told me he was stationed at Ft. Campbell and could remember clearly how people in that area spoke. I made sure to check my accent after that!-- 99.177.248.92 ( talk) 20:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay I have been to Austin, Texas several times, and NO ONE there prounounces pin and pen the same, or say "y'all" (in contrast to the rest of the state, even in the diverse urban areas of Houston and Dallas). In fact Austin is the only city in TX where you will be hard pressed to find a SAE speaker. People there talk like a combination of Californians, New Yorkers, or perhaps General American speakers from the Midwest. Austin is a different city than the other cities in TX and even in accents it shows. So please put a white circle in Austin on that map. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.96.42.252 ( talk) 22:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
The wording in the section on Louisiana is confusing varieties of French with dialects of English. Cajun French and Louisiana Creole are NOT dialects of English, and shouldn't be discussed in this article at all. A Cajun English dialect does exist, and could be discussed; the same may be true for speakers of Creole but I don't know much about that subject. Here are some sources for Cajun English:
Cheramie, D. M. (1998). “Glad you axed”: A teacher’s guide to Cajun English. http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED420881.pdf. Cox, J. (1992). A study of the linguistic features of Cajun English. http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED352840.pdf.
68.229.134.249 ( talk) 01:43, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
According to this site, all can be pronounced with an unrounded vowel (the vowel of pOlitics): [ɑːɫ] http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/research/gsound/Eng/Database/Phonetics/Englishes/ByWord/Word_001_all.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linda Martens ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Being a native of Houston and having known and worked with Cajuns my whole life, I can, without reservation, state that the categorization of Houston's dialect as Cajun is wholly inaccurate. Even the inclusion of Houston in the Southern American English category is questionable as evidenced by the absense of the monophthongization of /ay/ and /oy/, which are characteristic of SAE [1]. As stated by Thomas, this absense of certain markers may be due to the large immigrant population.
authored by LordOfTribbles ( talk) on 01:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
References
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
In general, Wikipedia's linguistic articles are well-written and solidly supported with citations to scholarly authority. For some reason, the article on Southern American English is an exception. Even statements that seem to have been written by persons familiar with linguistic terms and methods frequently lack any reference to authority. More often, and particularly in the descriptive sections, the article lacks even the appearance of authority, and seems to consist mainly of assertions from personal experience, lacking even the merit of original research, viz., research.
Can we please get a linguist, or at least a serious student of American dialects, to rewrite this article, adding citations to support whatever can be supported by authority, and removing what can't?
Jdcrutch ( talk) 05:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that double negatives aren't covered. Anyone care to tune it up? 66.30.179.108 ( talk) 19:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
On... Having lived through out the SE US, I've run across a pronunciation of the adv. "on" that is unfamiliar to me. In my experience, the o is "long" as in the word "phone" but I have recently heard a coworker pronounce it "ahn" To my knowledge, he has never lived anywhere else but South Carolina. 71.14.96.230 ( talk) 04:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
While I lack citations, at this point, I would like to open a discussion on this specific subject.
The original author has offered the beginning of insight; it is well noted that Southern American English has an arche, or origin, in the many styles and dialects of the United Kingdom, there is a regional gap. In notation, the dialects number on the order of 400 (uncounted, thusly) , including creoles, geographical and sociological influences, portmanteau and linguistic drift. Southern American English is a migratory mix of these factors, not to mention the advent of a "standard intonation and pronunciation" brought about by media sources.
One is born with a "milk tongue", informed by environment and circumstances. When one moves, from region to region, it is a natural psychological occurrence to adapt and fit in; when one begins to lesson in a foreign language, it is best to learn to develop a proper, generalized accent that conforms to the language. Knowledge of the proper culture, customs and basic speaking is certainly more polite than to arrive in another country without, as well as a reflection of time spent to care about diplomacy.
Division of "sub-regions" is a good start, but much too general.
This article requires more than such generalizations; the dialect of Mobile, AL differs distinctly from that of Gastonia, NC, so begs for closer study and resolution. This is dialectical data that might give this article more impact, and certainly more clarity.
Understand, this is not promoted as argument or personal offense. It is merely an invitation to discuss the article further. Bono Fides will be offered, though, by necessity, in First Person.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Mtbruin ( talk) 14:46, 18 January 2015 (UTC)Greggory Hackney
The article claims the following, without citing any sources:
It is unclear that the regional differences between southern and northern American dialects is due to the origins of the settlers. Apparently Guy Bailey claims [4] SAE actually developed after the Civil War, [5] but this is disputed by [6]. More info here: [7]. This paper does attribute subregional variation to population origin differences. The article needs to explain the history in more detail and with better citations, noting areas of disagreement. -- Beland ( talk) 06:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
The section titles included
Two sections with identical titles, and two with non-parallel titles in an otherwise parallel structure. Both "modern" and "newer" are used in the text.
So now the subsections have the following valid links:
Please {{Ping}} me to discuss. -- Thnidu ( talk) 15:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I propose deletion of the topmost image in the article ( File:SouthernEnglishMap.jpg). At best it is synthesis of several sources, but in my opinion it doesn't even represent those sources very well. It appears to largely represent one editor's opinion, the creator of the image. That editor is Nomatterwhereigo ( talk · contribs), who hasn't edited in over three years. Sundayclose ( talk) 00:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I oppose deletion, as the image source is from the Telsur page here
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html
which also reflects other maps of other studies from the Univ. of PA Telsur project
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap2.GIF Dubyavee ( talk) 06:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
At least two of the major articles on the stub Ozark English more or less equate "Ozark English" with "Appalachian English":
I would just go ahead and boldy merge it myself, but I'm a bit stumped by the three merging options: to Southern American English, to Older Southern American English, or to Appalachian English. Any thoughts? Thanks Wolfdog ( talk) 01:20, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
An anon has just changed
Thus, a modern Southeastern super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and southeastern New Mexico, as well as a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio.
to
Thus, a modern Southeastern super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and southeastern New Mexico, as well as a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, Southern Ohio, and Northwestern Oklahoma.
Is that what the source says? As far as I can see, the reference ( [8]) doesn't say most of (or anything) what we claim it does. Is it essentially a reference falsification? Peter238 ( talk) 08:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
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The way this article is worded makes it sound like Southern American English is barely present in Oklahoma, while the maps make it seem as if the accent is present in the majority of the state.
The Southeastern Super Region map is seemingly inconsistent with the following two statements:
"[Southern American English] is marginally documented (often, as a South Midland accent) throughout Oklahoma, the eastern half of Kansas, Greater St. Louis, metropolitan Decatur in Illinois, metropolitan Indianapolis in Indiana, the Miami Valley in Ohio, the remainder of West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and southwestern and southern Pennsylvania."
"Thus, a modern Southeastern dialectal super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio."
This caught my attention because I am from Oklahoma and I find it beyond a stretch to say that Southern American English is only marginally present in Oklahoma. I realize that anecdotal or personal evidence is not encyclopedia-worthy, but there is an obvious disparity between the maps and the description of Oklahoma's accent in the article. Either the maps are more accurate or the text in the article is more accurate regarding Oklahoma; my own experiences tell me the maps are more accurate. I see that previous comments also question the accuracy of the text and I would like to see this get settled.
Thanks!
Down yonder ( talk) 04:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you need to make some edits regarding Oklahoma. Oklahoma is home to both r-ful(upland) and R-less(coastal) southern dialects. Southern American English is prominent in Oklahoma. Only in the northern edge will you find south midland. It is by no means consistent with what you hear in Kansas. This is especially true in the southeastern quarter of the state where coastal southern is prominent. To suggest that the southern diealect is a weaker version is wrong on so many levels. Please edit this section. Oklahoma should be included with the rest of the southern states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryan74 ( talk • contribs) 03:34, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Jakeroberts27: Hi. What I tried to give with the map you deleted was specific cities that had been identified with varying degrees of "Southern dialect" character. I'd be happy to mend the map if you give me specifics on what you found confusing. The ANAE map that you replaced it with gives dialects of the whole country, which is unnecessary and even more likely confusing to readers. Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 13:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)