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I would suggest changing the '10 largest metropolitan areas' to perhaps a list of 'important cities/places' because the inclusion of states such as Texas or other 'maybe southeastern' states skews the list and shifts focus from where it needs to be.-- 70.174.11.120 14:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I am correcting the chart of largest metropolitan areas. The population figures are not consistent. Some of the metro areas listed use the population of the Combined Metropolitan Statistical Area (CSA) whereas others use just the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA). This leads one to believe that, for example, Raleigh has more population that it really does (since its CSA population was used) whereas Atlanta's MSA population is listed for that area. Since the heading is Metropolitan Area, I am switching them all to the 2009 estimate of MSA population, not CSA. -- Conk 9 ( talk) 22:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a defined southeast. It is defined by the US Census Bureau. http://www.census.gov/geo/www/us_regdiv.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.65.203 ( talk) 23:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I've never ever heard anyone describe the states of Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas as being Southeast. (OK, the U of Arkansas has joined the SEC, but athletic conferences have much less regional integrity than they did. Can anyone point to ANY reference that describes the southeast as these states? older≠ wiser 00:26, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
Arkansas and Texas were part of the Confederate States of America, which is a likely reason for their inclusion. I'd like to inquire as to why Virginia is not considered a Southeastern state. Ezratrumpet 02:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The CSA corresponds to Southern United States, while Southeast is a recent coinage with different meaning.
I have never heard of Texas as Southeast either, and the whole reason for referring separately to Southeast and Southwest (or South Central) is to distinguish between Texas and the Atlanta-dominated region. Therefore I'm going to fact tag this statement. -- JWB 20:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The picture shows Arkansas as 'arguably' South Eastern, while the text says it's unambiguously South Eastern. -- 80.177.14.123 07:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have heard of Arkansas most commonly desribed as a Southeastern state. In fact, it is completely within the Southeastern portion of the U.S. {it is quite a bit east of the 98th meridian. Kentucky, Virginia, and West Virginia are also often known as Southeastern States as well as border states. Dinobrya November 28 2006.
Depending on the editor, it's possible to obtain a variety of maps. This for example follows the layout that I've seen the most often. TEDickey ( talk) 21:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
According to new policy approved by Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Southeastern United States, and likewise its related sub-articles as well. Thanks. - JCarriker 10:20, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions -- Qirex 05:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I am currently making an attempt to correct information and add-to this article. Assistance is welcome as long as it is NPOV. POV of certain issues concerning this geographical region is not a part of what this article should be. Remember people from around the globe read this and should leave this article with pleasant thoughts. -- Bookofsecrets 04:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is Arkansas striped but Louisiana is not? Arkansas is as far east as Louisiana, and arguably more Southern in culture. ArkSoutherner 17:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The article lists Virginia, but it is blank on the map as well as Kentucky, West Virginia, and Maryland. Virginia should be on the map solid dark red. Kentucky, West Virginia, and Maryland should be on the map striped.
Please if Virginia should go on there then so should Kentucky, excluding the other "border states" Louisvillian 23:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Ummm.... How does the inclusion of VA mean KY must be included as well, and not Maryland??? Kentucky is in the center of the nation, not the east coast. MD and VA are southeast by census definitions.
No acutally the Census Bureau considered Kentucky Southern. LOL I don't think anyone from maryland should try to get over on a Kentuckians in this category, and let's just leave it that. 74.128.200.135 01:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
For the record, the Census Bureau does not define a "Southeast" region, just a more general "South" that is broken down into 4 sub-regions. All of the border states, with the exception of Missouri, are in this Census definition, but that's another story. Is anybody aware of what definition people are basing this page off of? The list of states on the page is not only the entire list of "Southern" states as defined by the Census Bureau, it also directly contradicts the page's map. I, for one, have rarely heard the term "Southeastern" used to describe Texas and have a study to back that up; I think most people in the state would prefer the term "Southern" or "Southwestern", with a minority opting for the term "Western." Oklahoma is also not what many people would consider to be "Southeastern." FL, AL, GA, MS, SC, TN, and NC would definitely fit the mold; beyond that, we need some kind of outside citation. I would definitely not include any states north of the 36-30/Missouri Compromise Line in a defintion of the "Southeast", even if they may be considered "Southern" in some definitions.
If this page is attempting to differentiate "Southeast USA" from "Southern USA", it is not doing a good job of doing so; either the states listed, the map, or both need to be changed for some consistency. If it is simply equating the "Southeast USA" to the "Southern USA" (something I'd personally find a bit dubious), I can't really see what purpose it serves, as there is already a perfectly good Southern page. -- Gator87 04:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Based on the comments on this page and to be consistent with other sources (as well as to remove redundancy with the Southern United States page), I went ahead and changed the page. I removed TX, OK, AR, LA, KY, VA, WV, MD, DE, and MO from the definition and updated the largest metro areas for consistency. If we're going to include all of those states in this definition, what we've done is re-create, in smaller scale, the Southern United States page, which makes absolutely no sense. -- Gator87 05:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Since this is trying to be different from the South, I made a new map you can use. Now, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas are wiped off, because these are west of the Mississippi River, and these are just South, not Southeast. Louisiana is striped, since parts of the state go west of the Mississippi River.
I would suggest getting rid of the current map entirely. There is such a wide variety of definitions that picking one for a map is misleading. If there has to be a map, it would be better to have one without shading.
If we retain the map with shading, I would suggest replacing the shading of "states that may be considered Southeast" with shading of the entire Southern States. This will avoid further conflict about which states can be considered Southeast. -- JWB 21:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The Southeast to me was just an alternative name to the term "The South". With the suffix "east" being tagged along it seems that it is moreso limiting the extension west than North which is what this map is indicating. "I've" noticed that alot of buisness's use the term "Southeast" rather then the "the South". And in those definitions it always includes Va, Ky, TN, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, LA, & AR. Tx and Ok being so west are probably 8/10 the states that are dropped from the label. Kentucky and Virginia for some strange reason are absent from the map. While not absent from the Bell South Definition [1] and the World Book definition, and countless cultural references to the region. 74.128.200.135 19:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I posted the exact same thing before. This is trying to differnate from the South article. Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Maryland are just South, not the geographic Southeast.
I don't under how the suffix east limits the extend of the Southern boundary when concerning the North and South. this article to me honestly makes no since as far as the map definition goes. The U.S. census bureau does not designate a SouthEASTERN region, so their is no official source for standard purposes. The closest reliable source I can think of is an encylopedia. WorldBook for example goes by unofficial regions which include the Southeast. The Southeast by that source includes Ky, Va, Tn, Nc, Sc, Fl, Ga, Al, La, & Ar the Texas and Oklahoma are not included in this definition. 74.128.200.135 18:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm reverting the recent edits to an earlier version as they were not cited and undid a consensus definition. This issue had been discussed in detail on this page, and the agreement was that "South" and "Southeast" are not the same thing in this context. That is the entire purpose of this page, based on these and other earlier comments by editors:
1. ...'ve never ever heard anyone describe the states of Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas as being Southeast...
2. The CSA corresponds to Southern United States, while Southeast is a recent coinage with different meaning.
I have never heard of Texas as Southeast either, and the whole reason for referring separately to Southeast and Southwest (or South Central) is to distinguish between Texas and the Atlanta-dominated region....
The Census Bureau does not define a "Southeast" region - they define a South region, which includes states such as Texas and Oklahoma that are unquestionably not Southeastern. Neither are Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, or Delaware. We had decided long ago that this page needs to either reflect a subset of the larger South - otherwise, it is just a dummied-down replica of the Southern United States page and would serve no purpose.
There is going to be a problem with sources here, because different encyclopedias and references are going to have different definitions. For that purpose, it's probably best to stick with the states that are unquestionably at the core of the region. -- Gator87 10:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
While I agree with the fact that this shouldn't just be a dumbed down version of the Southern Article by including every state that is considered Southern in the general sense. I disagree with the overall definition and how that defintion came to be. I have yet to see a source for this definition of the Southeast. Again the fact that the Census Bureau does not recognize this as an Official region and there is no source backing this articles definition then how did this come to be? The only enclopedia (and the most purchased) that recognizes the Southeast as a region is world book and Kentucky and Virginia are definantly included in there. The main states I've noticed that this definition limits are the states on the Western fringe (hint the SouthEAST). Just from personal experience 8/10 Kentucky and Virginia are included in this region.
74.128.200.135
21:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
For various organizations' definitions, take a look at Google Image Search for southeast region map -- JWB 23:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
My conclusions are:
I also found another encyclopedic reference to Region Britannica. [2]. Upload the video and it shows a political map that refers to the state's that make up the region. This definition includes, KY, Va, Tn, Nc, Sc, Ga, Al, Ms, La, Ar, Wv, and Fl. 74.128.200.135 03:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 04:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a new map this article should switch to. Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas are blank because those states are just South. Not Southeast. Louisiana is striped. http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/444/usmapsoutheastkm0.png
-- Gator87 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
At the same time however it seems as though it's totally disregaurding the encyclopedic reference that clearly includes states north of the TN/NC border. If it's your personal opinion that those states are what comprise the region then that's fine, But to disreguard two enclopedic references seems to be a bit silly don't you think?
It's quite simple really, the general exclusion of extreme western states (from a regional perspective) such as Oklahoma and Texas clearly show a difference between the two regional terms. Hence SouthEAST, nor DEEP Southeast. 74.128.200.135 20:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The inclusion of those states north of the NC/TN line is not short of sources (obviously since Worldbook and Britannica include them)
[5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] 74.128.200.135 20:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 02:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 18:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Who in the Hell is the majority, this article's talk is relatively dead! Before you made your little edits to the page no one else had any complainys about the definition that included states above the Missouri Compromise. Then someone just commented a few days ago stating that this definition needs a change! Why in the Hell are you so determined to undermine these encyclopedic references? The exclusion of states to West will show the difference between this article and the Southern Article, HENCE southEAST.
Where are you sourcing this information from???? Face it you're providing your own original research to make a dead point. Louisvillian 23:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 02:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Compared to two other sources encyclopedic sources (worldbook& Britannica) that include the states north of the Missouri Compromise. The fact that another user had a problem with states north of the compromise no being included is an indicator that this map is a source of conflict. As far as the regions according the sporting disticts Kentucky is included in two while Louisiana is included in one, Arkansas is included in one, Tennesseee is included in one, Alabama is only included in three, Va is included in 3, and NC are included in three. FACE IT your system is biased as towards your own opinion, and the article is full of contradictaries (the maping system compared to the chart that shows the inclusion of each state in sporting divisions). If maryland and Delaware can be striped on the Southern articles map (occasionally considered Southern) because they are included in the census bureau def., than please explain to me why Kentucky and Virginia cannot be considered Southeastern OCCASSIONALLY. Louisvillian 01:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
This crap being pulled is ridiculous too many sources prove that Kentucky and Virginia are generally included in the region, whereas the only state's that are almost exclusively excluded are the MOST WESTERN OF THE SOUTHERN STATES (oklahoma and Texas), Hence the SouthEAST!. The fact they are even mentioned on the chart prove it, it just makes no sense. 74.128.200.135 05:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The source I'm mentioning is available here - http://www.metroatlantachamber.com/macoc/business/img/alookatatlanta.pdf .
I have removed the source for the moment because an editor had inaccurately quoted it (likely because he disagreed with its views, in which case I'm not sure why he posted it.) I have no problem in using this source on the page, because it DOES include a good definition of the Southeast on page 6, which includes the states of FL, GA, AL, MS, NC, SC, and TN. It makes no mention of Kentucky, Virginia, or other states on the periphery of the Upper South. User Louisvillian referred to a map on page 7 as including Kentucky in Atlanta's "primary impact zone", whatever that is. This map is nothing more than a flight distance map and makes no claim of represting the Southeast - again, the Southeast is defined in this document on page 6, not via the map on page 7. If were are going to include this source, we should reference the clearly laid out definition on page 6. I see that another editor has been making the same point, but I'd like more than a 2-1 consensus on that in order to avoid another edit war.
Furthermore, user Louisvillian had stated in his edits that "Kentucky is in the primary impact zone of Atlanta." Not true. People in the state's population centers are definitely closer geographically to Chicago than Atlanta for the most part, and from personal experiences I know that they will tend to travel to the cultural/shopping facilities in one of these cities over Atlanta's, just as people in Virginia will prefer Washington DC's amenities over Atlanta's. -- Gator87 10:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Either way the source is gone. From my own personal experience Louisville's black population is more served by Atlanta than any other metropolis, (chicago included). Either way there is no way to actually prove which one Kentucky is more attached to. Louisvillian 19:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
"Atlanta is the central metropolis of the Southeast [2] [3] , and the Southeast roughly corresponds to an area with Atlanta centrally located, with Hartsfield as the airline hub, and UNC Chapel Hill draws many students, plus Florida. However, most of Virginia is served by the Washington Metropolitan Area."
This doesn't make a lot of sense: I'd like to try to clarify this paragraph, and make it more regionally approriate.
Some brief blurbs for each of the 1,000,000+ metros might generally be more approriate as each have distinct 'importances' or attributes - i.e. the general international status of Atlanta and Miami, the military presence in Tidewater VA, the financial sector in Charlotte, the tech-and-academics sector in the Triangle, the music/culture orientations in Nashville Atlanta Memphis and Miami... Davidals 07:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Do we want to get into regional demographics and culture?
Thought I'd see if anyone else had some thoughts on this before throwing it all into the article. Davidals 08:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has long been a center for the study and nurture of Southern culture. It has also helped to educate a regional elite. An appreciable percentage of all college graduates are Chapel Hill alumni. Tar Heels are thick on the ground throughout the southeastern states, but (aside from some brain drain to the New York City suburbs) that's the only place they're so numerous. In particular, Chapel Hill graduates have little market penetration west of the Mississippi. (Texas has its own universities.) [14] or [15]
It looks as if some editors have decided that all universities are prominent. Some reliable source to support this list is needed (probably half of the list can be discarded). Tedickey ( talk) 11:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Why is Jacksonville, which has been consolidated with Duval County since the early 70's not considered a 'consolidated city-county'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.177.215 ( talk) 13:15, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't seem like a very good way of defining the Southeast. The examples are highly arbitrary and thus, in my opinion, unencyclopedic. For example, Southeast Conservative Baptist lists Kentucky and an island in the Bahamas as Southeast, but not Georgia or Tennessee. My point is, this list isn't something compiled by the government to show the boundaries of a region; it's nothing more than organizations grouping states however they see fit, not to mention that one could pick and choose who to add and remove from the list to show whatever they want. There's no reason to retain this list.-- Flash176 ( talk) 11:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Recent edits have added chunks without much context, apparently from Southern United States. The reader will notice the lack of transition between each chunk, and further, problems with several of the references Tedickey ( talk) 08:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
This whole article is such starting with the first paragraph giving a list of states saying "most publications and the general population of the Southern United States generally agree". How is that based in any measurable fact? And the map shows ARKANSAS, LOUISIANA, KENTUCKY, and TENNESSEE in the Southeast? I guess people are afraid to at least stripe Maryland (which is about 1/2 southeastern) or even Delaware (about a third southern), yet include West Virginia and Kentucky fully? This page is so beyond help that I won't bother any edits- any sane person can deduct that this is not a serious page.
On the article for the [Southern United States], Maryland and Delaware are both included on the map as part of "the South". So, if it is part of the South as a whole, then surely it should be included as part of the Southeastern United States. But, the map on this article does not include it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenhplover ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a ridiculous excuse for a resource page. I posted the topic above yours months ago and no one has yet to edit or delete the most incredibly juvenile claim that "most people" claim the states on the map in red as the Southeast.
Also, I'd like to add- I am removing the University of Maryland from this page. If our state is not good enough to be striped on the map or even mentioned in passing, you all should not be able to grace your page with the name of our educational institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.59.249.85 ( talk) 03:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Maryland is Southern. The U.S. Census Bureau does classify it as such. Therefore, since the government says its Southern, then it's Southern. Putting any references not including maryland or D.c. (since it's surrounded by 2 southern states) in here. Thank you. For all Northern supporting marylanders who disagree please look it up. Just remember, being Southern ain't a bad thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.2.99 ( talk) 04:48, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
The census might classify Maryland as being in the South, but other government agencies such as the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Energy group Maryland in with the Northeast.
In the discussion of whether Maryland is northern or southern, I see no mention of the Mason-Dixon Line. Traditionally, that is the demarcation between North and South. bobjones37
Maryland is "up south" and "down north". It is a weird place, but has more country folks than yankee folks. I think it's controversial, but definitely identifies with south more than north. 69.251.26.101 ( talk) 06:22, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
The sources which Thesouthernhistorian45 provides for his POV-based edit state "American" where he reads "English", etc. If they were really the same, he'd find no need to keep making edits of this sort TEDickey ( talk) 18:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
That's not true at all, the source I provided states "English" explicitly. If you'd actually look at the source you'll see "American" isn't one of the options in it at all. I copied the figures exactly for those citing "English ancestry" in the census designated region of "South". The phrase "American" does not appear anywhere in the source. You are being untruthful, please withdraw your comments as they are inaccurate, I'm hoping they are inaccurate by mistake and you're not just lying. Why do you feel the need to be so insulting and combative? What about this verifiable source from the United States goverment with exact quoted figures do you feel is inaccurate? Thesouthernhistorian45 ( talk) 21:38, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Rather than pointing to a single CSV file, the parent page should be used, e.g., this. TEDickey ( talk) 09:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I updated the source, found at least one discrepancy, and a couple of changes in ranking - but did not change the ranking yet TEDickey ( talk) 12:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The article states that the Southeast is colloquially referred to as the South- But many states that are not included in the Southeast region are part of the South. And I think that stating that the Southeast is colloquially referred to as the South is original research. I have edited out that statement for that reason. 173.216.242.13 ( talk) 23:04, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
And what is more, if you go to the Wikipedia article on Alabama and click on southeastern region, you just get taken to the Wikipedia article on the southern region. Perhaps a Wikipedia project group, such as Wikipedia U.S.A., could give this a big clean-up. 81.140.1.129 ( talk) 07:44, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Firstly, can I sat that I am an Englishman who has lived all my life in England, so Wikipedia readers from the United States of America may help me if I slip up here. I am aware that there is an article on Wikipedia that is on the term Deep South - my understanding is that this term refers to the twelve states in the south-eastern corner of the U.S.A., but the Wikipedia article does not really clarify what these twelve states are. Perhaps the twelve states that are listed by such an appellation could go here, and this article could introduce the term "Deep South" earlier. Carltonio ( talk) 21:17, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, I have just spotted that under the term "See also" there is not even a reference to Deep South - and yet, this is perhaps the obvious entry to have here. Carltonio ( talk) 21:21, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I don’t think Maryland and Delaware are commonly considered the south. They are the Northeast, or at the very least the Mid-Atlantic. The map needs to be updated. Smith0124 ( talk) 05:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Actually, the US Census Bureau classifies both Maryland and Delaware as Southern. With good reason, they were both slaveholding states that wanted to join the Confederacy during the Civil War but were unable to because they were bordered by Union states. They also had Jim Crow laws while the North did not. While Maryland and Delaware may not be as Southern anymore today but it does have a history of being Southern, like it or not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.200.27.124 ( talk) 19:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
If we're using the Census Bureau to define these states as southeastern, then we should also include the Philadelphia CSA in the listing of regional CSAs, as it includes portions of both states. 170.253.147.186 ( talk) 08:06, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
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Southeast Coast. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 2#Southeast Coast until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed,
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I would suggest changing the '10 largest metropolitan areas' to perhaps a list of 'important cities/places' because the inclusion of states such as Texas or other 'maybe southeastern' states skews the list and shifts focus from where it needs to be.-- 70.174.11.120 14:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I am correcting the chart of largest metropolitan areas. The population figures are not consistent. Some of the metro areas listed use the population of the Combined Metropolitan Statistical Area (CSA) whereas others use just the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA). This leads one to believe that, for example, Raleigh has more population that it really does (since its CSA population was used) whereas Atlanta's MSA population is listed for that area. Since the heading is Metropolitan Area, I am switching them all to the 2009 estimate of MSA population, not CSA. -- Conk 9 ( talk) 22:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a defined southeast. It is defined by the US Census Bureau. http://www.census.gov/geo/www/us_regdiv.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.65.203 ( talk) 23:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I've never ever heard anyone describe the states of Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas as being Southeast. (OK, the U of Arkansas has joined the SEC, but athletic conferences have much less regional integrity than they did. Can anyone point to ANY reference that describes the southeast as these states? older≠ wiser 00:26, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
Arkansas and Texas were part of the Confederate States of America, which is a likely reason for their inclusion. I'd like to inquire as to why Virginia is not considered a Southeastern state. Ezratrumpet 02:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The CSA corresponds to Southern United States, while Southeast is a recent coinage with different meaning.
I have never heard of Texas as Southeast either, and the whole reason for referring separately to Southeast and Southwest (or South Central) is to distinguish between Texas and the Atlanta-dominated region. Therefore I'm going to fact tag this statement. -- JWB 20:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The picture shows Arkansas as 'arguably' South Eastern, while the text says it's unambiguously South Eastern. -- 80.177.14.123 07:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have heard of Arkansas most commonly desribed as a Southeastern state. In fact, it is completely within the Southeastern portion of the U.S. {it is quite a bit east of the 98th meridian. Kentucky, Virginia, and West Virginia are also often known as Southeastern States as well as border states. Dinobrya November 28 2006.
Depending on the editor, it's possible to obtain a variety of maps. This for example follows the layout that I've seen the most often. TEDickey ( talk) 21:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
According to new policy approved by Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Southeastern United States, and likewise its related sub-articles as well. Thanks. - JCarriker 10:20, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions -- Qirex 05:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I am currently making an attempt to correct information and add-to this article. Assistance is welcome as long as it is NPOV. POV of certain issues concerning this geographical region is not a part of what this article should be. Remember people from around the globe read this and should leave this article with pleasant thoughts. -- Bookofsecrets 04:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is Arkansas striped but Louisiana is not? Arkansas is as far east as Louisiana, and arguably more Southern in culture. ArkSoutherner 17:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The article lists Virginia, but it is blank on the map as well as Kentucky, West Virginia, and Maryland. Virginia should be on the map solid dark red. Kentucky, West Virginia, and Maryland should be on the map striped.
Please if Virginia should go on there then so should Kentucky, excluding the other "border states" Louisvillian 23:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Ummm.... How does the inclusion of VA mean KY must be included as well, and not Maryland??? Kentucky is in the center of the nation, not the east coast. MD and VA are southeast by census definitions.
No acutally the Census Bureau considered Kentucky Southern. LOL I don't think anyone from maryland should try to get over on a Kentuckians in this category, and let's just leave it that. 74.128.200.135 01:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
For the record, the Census Bureau does not define a "Southeast" region, just a more general "South" that is broken down into 4 sub-regions. All of the border states, with the exception of Missouri, are in this Census definition, but that's another story. Is anybody aware of what definition people are basing this page off of? The list of states on the page is not only the entire list of "Southern" states as defined by the Census Bureau, it also directly contradicts the page's map. I, for one, have rarely heard the term "Southeastern" used to describe Texas and have a study to back that up; I think most people in the state would prefer the term "Southern" or "Southwestern", with a minority opting for the term "Western." Oklahoma is also not what many people would consider to be "Southeastern." FL, AL, GA, MS, SC, TN, and NC would definitely fit the mold; beyond that, we need some kind of outside citation. I would definitely not include any states north of the 36-30/Missouri Compromise Line in a defintion of the "Southeast", even if they may be considered "Southern" in some definitions.
If this page is attempting to differentiate "Southeast USA" from "Southern USA", it is not doing a good job of doing so; either the states listed, the map, or both need to be changed for some consistency. If it is simply equating the "Southeast USA" to the "Southern USA" (something I'd personally find a bit dubious), I can't really see what purpose it serves, as there is already a perfectly good Southern page. -- Gator87 04:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Based on the comments on this page and to be consistent with other sources (as well as to remove redundancy with the Southern United States page), I went ahead and changed the page. I removed TX, OK, AR, LA, KY, VA, WV, MD, DE, and MO from the definition and updated the largest metro areas for consistency. If we're going to include all of those states in this definition, what we've done is re-create, in smaller scale, the Southern United States page, which makes absolutely no sense. -- Gator87 05:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Since this is trying to be different from the South, I made a new map you can use. Now, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas are wiped off, because these are west of the Mississippi River, and these are just South, not Southeast. Louisiana is striped, since parts of the state go west of the Mississippi River.
I would suggest getting rid of the current map entirely. There is such a wide variety of definitions that picking one for a map is misleading. If there has to be a map, it would be better to have one without shading.
If we retain the map with shading, I would suggest replacing the shading of "states that may be considered Southeast" with shading of the entire Southern States. This will avoid further conflict about which states can be considered Southeast. -- JWB 21:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The Southeast to me was just an alternative name to the term "The South". With the suffix "east" being tagged along it seems that it is moreso limiting the extension west than North which is what this map is indicating. "I've" noticed that alot of buisness's use the term "Southeast" rather then the "the South". And in those definitions it always includes Va, Ky, TN, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, LA, & AR. Tx and Ok being so west are probably 8/10 the states that are dropped from the label. Kentucky and Virginia for some strange reason are absent from the map. While not absent from the Bell South Definition [1] and the World Book definition, and countless cultural references to the region. 74.128.200.135 19:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I posted the exact same thing before. This is trying to differnate from the South article. Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Maryland are just South, not the geographic Southeast.
I don't under how the suffix east limits the extend of the Southern boundary when concerning the North and South. this article to me honestly makes no since as far as the map definition goes. The U.S. census bureau does not designate a SouthEASTERN region, so their is no official source for standard purposes. The closest reliable source I can think of is an encylopedia. WorldBook for example goes by unofficial regions which include the Southeast. The Southeast by that source includes Ky, Va, Tn, Nc, Sc, Fl, Ga, Al, La, & Ar the Texas and Oklahoma are not included in this definition. 74.128.200.135 18:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm reverting the recent edits to an earlier version as they were not cited and undid a consensus definition. This issue had been discussed in detail on this page, and the agreement was that "South" and "Southeast" are not the same thing in this context. That is the entire purpose of this page, based on these and other earlier comments by editors:
1. ...'ve never ever heard anyone describe the states of Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas as being Southeast...
2. The CSA corresponds to Southern United States, while Southeast is a recent coinage with different meaning.
I have never heard of Texas as Southeast either, and the whole reason for referring separately to Southeast and Southwest (or South Central) is to distinguish between Texas and the Atlanta-dominated region....
The Census Bureau does not define a "Southeast" region - they define a South region, which includes states such as Texas and Oklahoma that are unquestionably not Southeastern. Neither are Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, or Delaware. We had decided long ago that this page needs to either reflect a subset of the larger South - otherwise, it is just a dummied-down replica of the Southern United States page and would serve no purpose.
There is going to be a problem with sources here, because different encyclopedias and references are going to have different definitions. For that purpose, it's probably best to stick with the states that are unquestionably at the core of the region. -- Gator87 10:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
While I agree with the fact that this shouldn't just be a dumbed down version of the Southern Article by including every state that is considered Southern in the general sense. I disagree with the overall definition and how that defintion came to be. I have yet to see a source for this definition of the Southeast. Again the fact that the Census Bureau does not recognize this as an Official region and there is no source backing this articles definition then how did this come to be? The only enclopedia (and the most purchased) that recognizes the Southeast as a region is world book and Kentucky and Virginia are definantly included in there. The main states I've noticed that this definition limits are the states on the Western fringe (hint the SouthEAST). Just from personal experience 8/10 Kentucky and Virginia are included in this region.
74.128.200.135
21:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
For various organizations' definitions, take a look at Google Image Search for southeast region map -- JWB 23:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
My conclusions are:
I also found another encyclopedic reference to Region Britannica. [2]. Upload the video and it shows a political map that refers to the state's that make up the region. This definition includes, KY, Va, Tn, Nc, Sc, Ga, Al, Ms, La, Ar, Wv, and Fl. 74.128.200.135 03:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 04:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a new map this article should switch to. Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas are blank because those states are just South. Not Southeast. Louisiana is striped. http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/444/usmapsoutheastkm0.png
-- Gator87 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
At the same time however it seems as though it's totally disregaurding the encyclopedic reference that clearly includes states north of the TN/NC border. If it's your personal opinion that those states are what comprise the region then that's fine, But to disreguard two enclopedic references seems to be a bit silly don't you think?
It's quite simple really, the general exclusion of extreme western states (from a regional perspective) such as Oklahoma and Texas clearly show a difference between the two regional terms. Hence SouthEAST, nor DEEP Southeast. 74.128.200.135 20:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The inclusion of those states north of the NC/TN line is not short of sources (obviously since Worldbook and Britannica include them)
[5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] 74.128.200.135 20:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 02:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 18:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Who in the Hell is the majority, this article's talk is relatively dead! Before you made your little edits to the page no one else had any complainys about the definition that included states above the Missouri Compromise. Then someone just commented a few days ago stating that this definition needs a change! Why in the Hell are you so determined to undermine these encyclopedic references? The exclusion of states to West will show the difference between this article and the Southern Article, HENCE southEAST.
Where are you sourcing this information from???? Face it you're providing your own original research to make a dead point. Louisvillian 23:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Gator87 02:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Compared to two other sources encyclopedic sources (worldbook& Britannica) that include the states north of the Missouri Compromise. The fact that another user had a problem with states north of the compromise no being included is an indicator that this map is a source of conflict. As far as the regions according the sporting disticts Kentucky is included in two while Louisiana is included in one, Arkansas is included in one, Tennesseee is included in one, Alabama is only included in three, Va is included in 3, and NC are included in three. FACE IT your system is biased as towards your own opinion, and the article is full of contradictaries (the maping system compared to the chart that shows the inclusion of each state in sporting divisions). If maryland and Delaware can be striped on the Southern articles map (occasionally considered Southern) because they are included in the census bureau def., than please explain to me why Kentucky and Virginia cannot be considered Southeastern OCCASSIONALLY. Louisvillian 01:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
This crap being pulled is ridiculous too many sources prove that Kentucky and Virginia are generally included in the region, whereas the only state's that are almost exclusively excluded are the MOST WESTERN OF THE SOUTHERN STATES (oklahoma and Texas), Hence the SouthEAST!. The fact they are even mentioned on the chart prove it, it just makes no sense. 74.128.200.135 05:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The source I'm mentioning is available here - http://www.metroatlantachamber.com/macoc/business/img/alookatatlanta.pdf .
I have removed the source for the moment because an editor had inaccurately quoted it (likely because he disagreed with its views, in which case I'm not sure why he posted it.) I have no problem in using this source on the page, because it DOES include a good definition of the Southeast on page 6, which includes the states of FL, GA, AL, MS, NC, SC, and TN. It makes no mention of Kentucky, Virginia, or other states on the periphery of the Upper South. User Louisvillian referred to a map on page 7 as including Kentucky in Atlanta's "primary impact zone", whatever that is. This map is nothing more than a flight distance map and makes no claim of represting the Southeast - again, the Southeast is defined in this document on page 6, not via the map on page 7. If were are going to include this source, we should reference the clearly laid out definition on page 6. I see that another editor has been making the same point, but I'd like more than a 2-1 consensus on that in order to avoid another edit war.
Furthermore, user Louisvillian had stated in his edits that "Kentucky is in the primary impact zone of Atlanta." Not true. People in the state's population centers are definitely closer geographically to Chicago than Atlanta for the most part, and from personal experiences I know that they will tend to travel to the cultural/shopping facilities in one of these cities over Atlanta's, just as people in Virginia will prefer Washington DC's amenities over Atlanta's. -- Gator87 10:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Either way the source is gone. From my own personal experience Louisville's black population is more served by Atlanta than any other metropolis, (chicago included). Either way there is no way to actually prove which one Kentucky is more attached to. Louisvillian 19:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
"Atlanta is the central metropolis of the Southeast [2] [3] , and the Southeast roughly corresponds to an area with Atlanta centrally located, with Hartsfield as the airline hub, and UNC Chapel Hill draws many students, plus Florida. However, most of Virginia is served by the Washington Metropolitan Area."
This doesn't make a lot of sense: I'd like to try to clarify this paragraph, and make it more regionally approriate.
Some brief blurbs for each of the 1,000,000+ metros might generally be more approriate as each have distinct 'importances' or attributes - i.e. the general international status of Atlanta and Miami, the military presence in Tidewater VA, the financial sector in Charlotte, the tech-and-academics sector in the Triangle, the music/culture orientations in Nashville Atlanta Memphis and Miami... Davidals 07:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Do we want to get into regional demographics and culture?
Thought I'd see if anyone else had some thoughts on this before throwing it all into the article. Davidals 08:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has long been a center for the study and nurture of Southern culture. It has also helped to educate a regional elite. An appreciable percentage of all college graduates are Chapel Hill alumni. Tar Heels are thick on the ground throughout the southeastern states, but (aside from some brain drain to the New York City suburbs) that's the only place they're so numerous. In particular, Chapel Hill graduates have little market penetration west of the Mississippi. (Texas has its own universities.) [14] or [15]
It looks as if some editors have decided that all universities are prominent. Some reliable source to support this list is needed (probably half of the list can be discarded). Tedickey ( talk) 11:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Why is Jacksonville, which has been consolidated with Duval County since the early 70's not considered a 'consolidated city-county'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.177.215 ( talk) 13:15, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't seem like a very good way of defining the Southeast. The examples are highly arbitrary and thus, in my opinion, unencyclopedic. For example, Southeast Conservative Baptist lists Kentucky and an island in the Bahamas as Southeast, but not Georgia or Tennessee. My point is, this list isn't something compiled by the government to show the boundaries of a region; it's nothing more than organizations grouping states however they see fit, not to mention that one could pick and choose who to add and remove from the list to show whatever they want. There's no reason to retain this list.-- Flash176 ( talk) 11:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Recent edits have added chunks without much context, apparently from Southern United States. The reader will notice the lack of transition between each chunk, and further, problems with several of the references Tedickey ( talk) 08:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
This whole article is such starting with the first paragraph giving a list of states saying "most publications and the general population of the Southern United States generally agree". How is that based in any measurable fact? And the map shows ARKANSAS, LOUISIANA, KENTUCKY, and TENNESSEE in the Southeast? I guess people are afraid to at least stripe Maryland (which is about 1/2 southeastern) or even Delaware (about a third southern), yet include West Virginia and Kentucky fully? This page is so beyond help that I won't bother any edits- any sane person can deduct that this is not a serious page.
On the article for the [Southern United States], Maryland and Delaware are both included on the map as part of "the South". So, if it is part of the South as a whole, then surely it should be included as part of the Southeastern United States. But, the map on this article does not include it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenhplover ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a ridiculous excuse for a resource page. I posted the topic above yours months ago and no one has yet to edit or delete the most incredibly juvenile claim that "most people" claim the states on the map in red as the Southeast.
Also, I'd like to add- I am removing the University of Maryland from this page. If our state is not good enough to be striped on the map or even mentioned in passing, you all should not be able to grace your page with the name of our educational institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.59.249.85 ( talk) 03:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Maryland is Southern. The U.S. Census Bureau does classify it as such. Therefore, since the government says its Southern, then it's Southern. Putting any references not including maryland or D.c. (since it's surrounded by 2 southern states) in here. Thank you. For all Northern supporting marylanders who disagree please look it up. Just remember, being Southern ain't a bad thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.2.99 ( talk) 04:48, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
The census might classify Maryland as being in the South, but other government agencies such as the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Energy group Maryland in with the Northeast.
In the discussion of whether Maryland is northern or southern, I see no mention of the Mason-Dixon Line. Traditionally, that is the demarcation between North and South. bobjones37
Maryland is "up south" and "down north". It is a weird place, but has more country folks than yankee folks. I think it's controversial, but definitely identifies with south more than north. 69.251.26.101 ( talk) 06:22, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
The sources which Thesouthernhistorian45 provides for his POV-based edit state "American" where he reads "English", etc. If they were really the same, he'd find no need to keep making edits of this sort TEDickey ( talk) 18:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
That's not true at all, the source I provided states "English" explicitly. If you'd actually look at the source you'll see "American" isn't one of the options in it at all. I copied the figures exactly for those citing "English ancestry" in the census designated region of "South". The phrase "American" does not appear anywhere in the source. You are being untruthful, please withdraw your comments as they are inaccurate, I'm hoping they are inaccurate by mistake and you're not just lying. Why do you feel the need to be so insulting and combative? What about this verifiable source from the United States goverment with exact quoted figures do you feel is inaccurate? Thesouthernhistorian45 ( talk) 21:38, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Rather than pointing to a single CSV file, the parent page should be used, e.g., this. TEDickey ( talk) 09:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I updated the source, found at least one discrepancy, and a couple of changes in ranking - but did not change the ranking yet TEDickey ( talk) 12:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The article states that the Southeast is colloquially referred to as the South- But many states that are not included in the Southeast region are part of the South. And I think that stating that the Southeast is colloquially referred to as the South is original research. I have edited out that statement for that reason. 173.216.242.13 ( talk) 23:04, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
And what is more, if you go to the Wikipedia article on Alabama and click on southeastern region, you just get taken to the Wikipedia article on the southern region. Perhaps a Wikipedia project group, such as Wikipedia U.S.A., could give this a big clean-up. 81.140.1.129 ( talk) 07:44, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Firstly, can I sat that I am an Englishman who has lived all my life in England, so Wikipedia readers from the United States of America may help me if I slip up here. I am aware that there is an article on Wikipedia that is on the term Deep South - my understanding is that this term refers to the twelve states in the south-eastern corner of the U.S.A., but the Wikipedia article does not really clarify what these twelve states are. Perhaps the twelve states that are listed by such an appellation could go here, and this article could introduce the term "Deep South" earlier. Carltonio ( talk) 21:17, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, I have just spotted that under the term "See also" there is not even a reference to Deep South - and yet, this is perhaps the obvious entry to have here. Carltonio ( talk) 21:21, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I don’t think Maryland and Delaware are commonly considered the south. They are the Northeast, or at the very least the Mid-Atlantic. The map needs to be updated. Smith0124 ( talk) 05:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Actually, the US Census Bureau classifies both Maryland and Delaware as Southern. With good reason, they were both slaveholding states that wanted to join the Confederacy during the Civil War but were unable to because they were bordered by Union states. They also had Jim Crow laws while the North did not. While Maryland and Delaware may not be as Southern anymore today but it does have a history of being Southern, like it or not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.200.27.124 ( talk) 19:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
If we're using the Census Bureau to define these states as southeastern, then we should also include the Philadelphia CSA in the listing of regional CSAs, as it includes portions of both states. 170.253.147.186 ( talk) 08:06, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Southeast Coast. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 2#Southeast Coast until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed,
Rosguill
talk
18:28, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
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