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"At one point, when? American television producer Bob Mann wanted James Michener to co-create a weekly anthology series from Tales of the South Pacific, with Michener as narrator. Rogers and Hammerstein, however, owned all dramatic rights to the novel and did not give up ownership. [1] Michener did lend his name to a different television series, Adventures in Paradise, in 1959. [2]"
Firstly, it doesn't belong where it now is, in the section on the 1958 movie (Edit: OK, the header has been changed, but since the series never occurred that seems odd too). Secondly, I checked the source and it doesn't give any kind of date for the TV series proposed by Bob Mann. The only clue is that the info precedes info on Adventures in Paradise. I doubt we're going to find any mention of it elsewhere. So we need to either rewrite it in a way that circumvents this issue, or delete the paragraph entirely. I vote the latter. It has nothing to do with the musical, really. (Although it does relate to R&H and Michener.) Softlavender ( talk) 07:56, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
References
[left] Happy to. I still have a couple of questions/thoughts: (1) In terms of the Tales of the South Pacific article: How to get around the fact that we don't have a date? (It's obviously somewhere between 1947 and 1959, but that's all we know; though it's more likely to be late 1950s I think.) (2) In terms of the James Michener article, the very short article as it stands now doesn't readily lend itself to this information, which is more about Michener's failed television career -- the source book (which I can sadly only see in snippet view, a little at a time) goes into great detail about Michener's desire to be a TV writer but his total incapacity to do it. (Not that that did him any harm LOL.) I could mention his attempts at TV in the Michener article, and fit it in that way, also adding the Adventures info (which he apprently didn't really write, only maybe signed off on or something). Or we could just skip the Michener article. Thoughts/advice on (1) and (2)? Softlavender ( talk) 01:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I e-mailed John Simon earlier today to see if he could verify and source that for us. I gave him the Broadway.com link also. Hopefully he will write back. I will also check and see who added it to this article and when. Softlavender ( talk) 08:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
OK, Ssilvers, you added that quote on April 3, 2008, with this edit:
[1]. [EDIT: SEE BELOW FOR CORRECTION] You sourced it to a link on Broadway.com that is no longer working, saying that it quoted Simon. Is there a way to view that link or article via the WayBackMachine?
Softlavender (
talk)
08:42, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Apologies; and thanks for the info. It was added December 5, 2006 by User:Hayford Peirce, in this edit: [2]. So we at least know that it was written before that date. Also, can we view that Broadway.com source article via the Wayback Machine? (I don't know how it works). Softlavender ( talk) 01:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Also, Simon replied to me and said "It sounds right to me. It must have been in the review of the revival at Lincoln Center Theater for Bloomberg News. JS". [Note: Simon began reviewing for Bloomberg in June 2005.] Considering that the quote got into Wikipedia on December 5, 2006, I think that was probably too early for the planning stages of the 2008 revival, which opened April 3, 2008 (anyone agree/disagree?). I'd say more likely it was a review or announcement of the June 9, 2005 Carnegie Hall concert, or (even more likely) the April 26, 2006 PBS airing of the latter, or the June 6, 2006 DVD release. Should I contact Simon again and let him know he couldn't have written that before December 5, 2006? That might jog his memory to the exact source. Softlavender ( talk) 01:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Found it (I managed to figure out how to use the Wayback Machine):
[5]. Seems to be loading slow at the moment, but worked perfectly ten minutes ago. Click the "Impatient?" link and it goes right to it. Also, the attribution is not in a byline but in the ID tag at the top of one's browser window or tab. Anyway, I added it to the article. We're all done here.
Softlavender (
talk)
04:05, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
RENEWED DISCUSSION: I'm sorry to say that it's a little more complicated than the above. It's still perhaps not certain that John Simon wrote that review, which, as Jean states, appeared on June 6, 2006 (Wayback Machine only goes back as far as July 15, 2006 on the original link). It's uncertain what the ID tag "ETCETERA by John Simon on Broadway.com", which appears at the top of the browser window, actually means. If you click some of the other "Past 10" items on the left of the page, they still have the same ID tag at the top of the page, yet a tiny handful have bylines, which include, sometimes, John Simon.
This one from 2005 has a byline that says Paul Wontorek, but it still has that same ID tag at the top of the page.
I tried to get some more information out of Simon just now, sending him the entire text of the review and asking if he wrote it (I forgot, however, to mention the ID tag at the top of the page!), but he didn't want to engage, and wrote back: "Please do not keep writing to me about this. I did not write unattributed articles for Broadway.com. If you want to read what I think of South Pacific -- look for the Lincoln Center review. Please leave me alone." Oh well; but like I said, the article perhaps wasn't entirely unattributed, given the ID tag above, but that's a conclusion rather than a certainty. However, the current link Jean posted makes it seem like it was written by staff.
So I don't know with 100% certainty if he wrote that or not. Which is too bad, because it's an eloquent generalization, and won't sound as good if not credited to Simon. What do you think we should do? Right now, it's used not only in the Reception section, but also as a footnote in the lead. Maybe we just need to find other quotes fom other authoritative sources, or from compilation sources. Perhaps something from a book on musical theatre, etc. Some possibilities: [6] -- Softlavender ( talk) 02:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I took out Simon's name for now. In general, I don't think we should name critics unless they are blue-linked, so I don't think we need to say that "staff" wrote something - just that a review appeared at Broadway.com. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
The new order of this section is not typical, and doesn't really make sense. We should describe the major changes, name the director and give any other major production info first, before giving the critics' reactions. Also, I am worried that we have too much here about the critical reaction to the film, since the film has its own article (which should be expanded). -- Ssilvers ( talk) 03:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I've put the negative stuff in the third paragraph now. Howzat? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 04:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm starting to look at reviews and books, to verify the "greatest musical" phrase. Nothing so far in the reviews for the 2001 West End production, although the summaries of those reviews were certainly very favorable.
I like this from a review of the 2008 Lincoln Center: "Something this transporting, this precise, and this beautiful can only be crafted by the most skilled of hands. Specifically, those of Richard Rodgers, Oscar Hammerstein II, and Joshua Logan, who created the enduringly exquisite musical called South Pacific, which Lincoln Center Theater is now resuscitating in a glowing revival at the Vivian Beaumont. As directed with superb reverence by Bartlett Sher and performed by an astonishing company, this production speaks and sings to your heart in a way few shows today do." from talkin' broadway April 4, 2008. Perhaps a few quotes about the 2008 (and 2001) revivals would be good, especially since some of the reviews comment on the relevance of this show in the current world.
More in the next few days (but I'm already leaning to changing the quote to something less grand!). JeanColumbia ( talk) 12:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I didn't forget or get distracted. :-) I was waiting for Jean to decide what she wants to do: whatever she thinks is best is fine with me, too. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
That's the first time in 62 years that I've ever heard Emile de Becque being called a "farmer". Geez, what will the gang at Wikipedia think of next!? Hayford Peirce ( talk) 19:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I have a suggestion for a potential correction, but I don't know how to go about it. In the plot summary, the article lists the character of Bloody Mary as "Tonkinese," which is a regional group in Viet Nam. However, I saw a performance last night, and from the dialog I believe she is actually "Tongan," from the Polynesian kingdom of Tonga, which is presumably near the island on which the story takes place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.132.217 ( talk) 22:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
I have added that there is a 2012 Australian tour. See more information here - http://www.showbiz.com.au/south-pacific/. This is a professional production tour, starring Lisa McCune as Nellie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.111.52 ( talk) 05:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Someone has deleted the 2012 Australia tour, which I am enraged about - it is an official Lincoln Center version of the musical. I am re-adding it immediately! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.96.149 ( talk) 08:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the acute accent on the capital E as reliably sourced. I don't see it in my copy of the libretto, and I've gone through six or so of my references and I don't see anything to indicate that it should be there. I don't doubt it is proper French, though I don't speak French besides a few lines lifted from Carmen and a few Quebecois imprecations. Unless there's a source I'm missing which shows it to be proper, I think it should be removed wherever it occurs.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 23:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
[left]It looks sensible enough, but I don't feel attached to it. If you want to try something different, go ahead. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I reviewed your Background section (excellent, of course) and left a couple hidden questions. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 20:33, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
We (and, to be fair, Hammerstein!) are making a rather unreal distinction between Melanesian and Polynesian here. The physical appearance of people belonging to the two "races" varies a good deal and overlaps enormously. Very dark Melanesians include some of the "blackest" people on Earth - while some Polynesian people (especially when NOT deeply tanned by the sun, as people living an outdoor life in the tropics tend to be) are a reddish brown. On the other hand the overall, "normal" colour of people of both "races" (this is from a white person who lived among them for many years) is a pleasant "milk-chocolate" brown. A relatively small number of Pacific Island people are "typically Melanesian" (say, the inhabitants of the western Solomon Islands) and a few more (like the people of Tonga or Samoa) often conform to a "typical Polynesian" image, with heavily built bodies tending to obesity in middle-age, and relatively light skins. Overall, however, one is tempted to consider the whole Polynesian/Melanesian distinction as a European artifact. In relation to the strongly anti-racist point Hammerstein wanted to make all this has absolutely zilch notability - or relevance for that matter, but quibbling about whether the little de Becques are one thing or the other has even less relevance. Children, especially, of mixed European/Islander parentage vary in appearance from a "passing" colouration to quite dark, and pretty well everywhere in between. As for "Eurasian": in a colonial East Asian or Pacific setting this is very simply a blanket term for people of mixed race. Modern usage may be more specific so we probably need to avoid it here. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
First, I think we should use the first names Nellie and Emile, as is normal in our musicals articles. However, I would use Billings and Cable (and last names for other officers), where these officers are normally referred to that way by the other characters in the show. Second, in writing multi-page numbers with more than two digits, I suggest that we shorten the second number to two digits if it is within the same 100 range. For example, pp. 227–34 instead of pp. 227–234; also pp. 1,227–34; but, pp. 296–304, of course. Third, I suggest leaving off the period at the end of refs (before the /ref tag), just to save one keystroke (and clutter) in each ref. But I don't feel strongly about the third, if you prefer the period at the end. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 06:28, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Re: the "other songs", you might be able to skip discussion of reprises, unless they are dramatically important. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Themes (and any other text analysis) could go just under the Reception section, at least for now, I think. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on our PR for this important musical at the PR page reached by clicking here. We are on the way to FAC -- Ssilvers ( talk) 21:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I moved Mad Scientist's comments, and our replies, to the PR page. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 12:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Congrats to all on the passage of the article! Looking at this talk page, I'd like to archive everything which does not have a response in 2012 or 2013 and perhaps set up auto-archiving.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 10:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
I think in a sentence making a statement about R&H's intent we should use contemporary language where possible. It is almost in the same category as calling G&S "comic opera" (the 19th century term for British operetta/musical comedy) - the justification is simply that we are using a contemporary term. "Racism" is of course the current term for what we mean, but it was pretty rare (and meant something rather different anyway) in the late fifties/early sixties (I was there, folks!). "Racialist" was actually more common - both opponents and supporters of South African apartheid used to call the then regime in that country a "racialist government". Calling the topic R&H were raising "the race question" certainly doesn't exclude the young in any way - in the most unlikely event that they don't get what is being talked about they can always click on the link. I know I have already been reverted on this one (and by an editor whose work on this article deserves every praise) - but reading "racism" in this sentence really grates. A very small point - but I'd love to have it properly discussed, at least. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with Soundofmusicals. Webster's dictionary says that the word "racism" has been current since the 1930s. Anti-racism#American_origins is a WP article that talks about the history of the fight against racism in earlier periods and uses the word "racism". Some early examples of use of the word:
An etymology of "racism" can be found in Singer, Marcus G. "Some Thoughts on Race and Racism" in Philosofihia 8 (1978), pp. 153-54. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 03:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
There has been some to- and froing over the "See also" section today. I see from the requisite guideline that "As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes"
, which precludes at least one of the links from appearing for a third time on the page. -
SchroCat (
talk)
18:12, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
How is it that an article of such significance as this has no "See also" section? There are no interesting, relevant, tangentially related topics? Not a one? That seems quite unlikely. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 18:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
I would like to request admin help. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 00:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Long story short: An editor above ( User:SchroCat) deleted my comments from this Talk Page (in the section immediately above). I reverted his edit, so that my comments would re-appear and would not be removed/deleted. Then, he accused me of deleting his comment (which in itself was the removal of my comment). And then he threatened me with an ANI report (in the edit summary). His edit summary is, quote, "Putting back in what the edit warrior reverted out. If you remove my comment again I will file an ANI report against you." Furthermore, he has called me various names ( "childish", "liar", "idiot", "edit warrior", etc.) and then accuses me of personal attacks. He has also accused me of edit wars. So, I want to be pre-emptive. And resolve this. Please advise. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 00:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure this should be done. They did not play in South Pacific by virtue of having been in the staged concert. It's not the same thing as the original show. It's a staged concert.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 14:23, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
From the lead:
The production won ten Tony Awards, including Best Musical, Best Score, and Best Libretto, and it is the only musical production to win Tony Awards in all four acting categories.
On a quick skim, I was unable to locate an as of date or a citation for this text in the body of the article. I find that the 2008 production won in all four design categories, but where do I find that it is the only one, in acting categories, or as of ? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 12:33, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
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Ssilvers is desperate to have a few instances of "however" in the article, because, you know, why not? But he can't bring himself to explain why or start a conversation here. So I've helped him out by starting the conversation. There, that wasn't so hard, was it? -- The Huhsz ( talk) 10:01, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
Do we need the new image of Juanita Hall as Bloody Mary? That part of the article had enough images, I think. Or maybe we can move the images around so that one of them goes into a less image-heavy part of the article? What do you think, User:Wehwalt? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 15:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
The musical theatre project has long advised that only "long-running, major-market" productions belong in the infobox (plus the original production, if it was elsewhere), except in unusual situations. For revivals of a Broadway show like this one, this means productions that either played on B'way or the WE, or US/UK national tours that ran for more than a year. Otherwise, the infoboxes would get hopelessly long (indeed, I think it's kind of silly to list *any* revivals in the infobox, other than the original production and first B'way or WE production). Also please note that this article is a WP:FA, so when it was promoted, lots of people reviewed the infobox and were happy with what was listed there as of 2013. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 07:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
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"At one point, when? American television producer Bob Mann wanted James Michener to co-create a weekly anthology series from Tales of the South Pacific, with Michener as narrator. Rogers and Hammerstein, however, owned all dramatic rights to the novel and did not give up ownership. [1] Michener did lend his name to a different television series, Adventures in Paradise, in 1959. [2]"
Firstly, it doesn't belong where it now is, in the section on the 1958 movie (Edit: OK, the header has been changed, but since the series never occurred that seems odd too). Secondly, I checked the source and it doesn't give any kind of date for the TV series proposed by Bob Mann. The only clue is that the info precedes info on Adventures in Paradise. I doubt we're going to find any mention of it elsewhere. So we need to either rewrite it in a way that circumvents this issue, or delete the paragraph entirely. I vote the latter. It has nothing to do with the musical, really. (Although it does relate to R&H and Michener.) Softlavender ( talk) 07:56, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
References
[left] Happy to. I still have a couple of questions/thoughts: (1) In terms of the Tales of the South Pacific article: How to get around the fact that we don't have a date? (It's obviously somewhere between 1947 and 1959, but that's all we know; though it's more likely to be late 1950s I think.) (2) In terms of the James Michener article, the very short article as it stands now doesn't readily lend itself to this information, which is more about Michener's failed television career -- the source book (which I can sadly only see in snippet view, a little at a time) goes into great detail about Michener's desire to be a TV writer but his total incapacity to do it. (Not that that did him any harm LOL.) I could mention his attempts at TV in the Michener article, and fit it in that way, also adding the Adventures info (which he apprently didn't really write, only maybe signed off on or something). Or we could just skip the Michener article. Thoughts/advice on (1) and (2)? Softlavender ( talk) 01:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I e-mailed John Simon earlier today to see if he could verify and source that for us. I gave him the Broadway.com link also. Hopefully he will write back. I will also check and see who added it to this article and when. Softlavender ( talk) 08:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
OK, Ssilvers, you added that quote on April 3, 2008, with this edit:
[1]. [EDIT: SEE BELOW FOR CORRECTION] You sourced it to a link on Broadway.com that is no longer working, saying that it quoted Simon. Is there a way to view that link or article via the WayBackMachine?
Softlavender (
talk)
08:42, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Apologies; and thanks for the info. It was added December 5, 2006 by User:Hayford Peirce, in this edit: [2]. So we at least know that it was written before that date. Also, can we view that Broadway.com source article via the Wayback Machine? (I don't know how it works). Softlavender ( talk) 01:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Also, Simon replied to me and said "It sounds right to me. It must have been in the review of the revival at Lincoln Center Theater for Bloomberg News. JS". [Note: Simon began reviewing for Bloomberg in June 2005.] Considering that the quote got into Wikipedia on December 5, 2006, I think that was probably too early for the planning stages of the 2008 revival, which opened April 3, 2008 (anyone agree/disagree?). I'd say more likely it was a review or announcement of the June 9, 2005 Carnegie Hall concert, or (even more likely) the April 26, 2006 PBS airing of the latter, or the June 6, 2006 DVD release. Should I contact Simon again and let him know he couldn't have written that before December 5, 2006? That might jog his memory to the exact source. Softlavender ( talk) 01:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Found it (I managed to figure out how to use the Wayback Machine):
[5]. Seems to be loading slow at the moment, but worked perfectly ten minutes ago. Click the "Impatient?" link and it goes right to it. Also, the attribution is not in a byline but in the ID tag at the top of one's browser window or tab. Anyway, I added it to the article. We're all done here.
Softlavender (
talk)
04:05, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
RENEWED DISCUSSION: I'm sorry to say that it's a little more complicated than the above. It's still perhaps not certain that John Simon wrote that review, which, as Jean states, appeared on June 6, 2006 (Wayback Machine only goes back as far as July 15, 2006 on the original link). It's uncertain what the ID tag "ETCETERA by John Simon on Broadway.com", which appears at the top of the browser window, actually means. If you click some of the other "Past 10" items on the left of the page, they still have the same ID tag at the top of the page, yet a tiny handful have bylines, which include, sometimes, John Simon.
This one from 2005 has a byline that says Paul Wontorek, but it still has that same ID tag at the top of the page.
I tried to get some more information out of Simon just now, sending him the entire text of the review and asking if he wrote it (I forgot, however, to mention the ID tag at the top of the page!), but he didn't want to engage, and wrote back: "Please do not keep writing to me about this. I did not write unattributed articles for Broadway.com. If you want to read what I think of South Pacific -- look for the Lincoln Center review. Please leave me alone." Oh well; but like I said, the article perhaps wasn't entirely unattributed, given the ID tag above, but that's a conclusion rather than a certainty. However, the current link Jean posted makes it seem like it was written by staff.
So I don't know with 100% certainty if he wrote that or not. Which is too bad, because it's an eloquent generalization, and won't sound as good if not credited to Simon. What do you think we should do? Right now, it's used not only in the Reception section, but also as a footnote in the lead. Maybe we just need to find other quotes fom other authoritative sources, or from compilation sources. Perhaps something from a book on musical theatre, etc. Some possibilities: [6] -- Softlavender ( talk) 02:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I took out Simon's name for now. In general, I don't think we should name critics unless they are blue-linked, so I don't think we need to say that "staff" wrote something - just that a review appeared at Broadway.com. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
The new order of this section is not typical, and doesn't really make sense. We should describe the major changes, name the director and give any other major production info first, before giving the critics' reactions. Also, I am worried that we have too much here about the critical reaction to the film, since the film has its own article (which should be expanded). -- Ssilvers ( talk) 03:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I've put the negative stuff in the third paragraph now. Howzat? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 04:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm starting to look at reviews and books, to verify the "greatest musical" phrase. Nothing so far in the reviews for the 2001 West End production, although the summaries of those reviews were certainly very favorable.
I like this from a review of the 2008 Lincoln Center: "Something this transporting, this precise, and this beautiful can only be crafted by the most skilled of hands. Specifically, those of Richard Rodgers, Oscar Hammerstein II, and Joshua Logan, who created the enduringly exquisite musical called South Pacific, which Lincoln Center Theater is now resuscitating in a glowing revival at the Vivian Beaumont. As directed with superb reverence by Bartlett Sher and performed by an astonishing company, this production speaks and sings to your heart in a way few shows today do." from talkin' broadway April 4, 2008. Perhaps a few quotes about the 2008 (and 2001) revivals would be good, especially since some of the reviews comment on the relevance of this show in the current world.
More in the next few days (but I'm already leaning to changing the quote to something less grand!). JeanColumbia ( talk) 12:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I didn't forget or get distracted. :-) I was waiting for Jean to decide what she wants to do: whatever she thinks is best is fine with me, too. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
That's the first time in 62 years that I've ever heard Emile de Becque being called a "farmer". Geez, what will the gang at Wikipedia think of next!? Hayford Peirce ( talk) 19:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I have a suggestion for a potential correction, but I don't know how to go about it. In the plot summary, the article lists the character of Bloody Mary as "Tonkinese," which is a regional group in Viet Nam. However, I saw a performance last night, and from the dialog I believe she is actually "Tongan," from the Polynesian kingdom of Tonga, which is presumably near the island on which the story takes place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.132.217 ( talk) 22:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
I have added that there is a 2012 Australian tour. See more information here - http://www.showbiz.com.au/south-pacific/. This is a professional production tour, starring Lisa McCune as Nellie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.111.52 ( talk) 05:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Someone has deleted the 2012 Australia tour, which I am enraged about - it is an official Lincoln Center version of the musical. I am re-adding it immediately! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.96.149 ( talk) 08:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the acute accent on the capital E as reliably sourced. I don't see it in my copy of the libretto, and I've gone through six or so of my references and I don't see anything to indicate that it should be there. I don't doubt it is proper French, though I don't speak French besides a few lines lifted from Carmen and a few Quebecois imprecations. Unless there's a source I'm missing which shows it to be proper, I think it should be removed wherever it occurs.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 23:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
[left]It looks sensible enough, but I don't feel attached to it. If you want to try something different, go ahead. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I reviewed your Background section (excellent, of course) and left a couple hidden questions. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 20:33, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
We (and, to be fair, Hammerstein!) are making a rather unreal distinction between Melanesian and Polynesian here. The physical appearance of people belonging to the two "races" varies a good deal and overlaps enormously. Very dark Melanesians include some of the "blackest" people on Earth - while some Polynesian people (especially when NOT deeply tanned by the sun, as people living an outdoor life in the tropics tend to be) are a reddish brown. On the other hand the overall, "normal" colour of people of both "races" (this is from a white person who lived among them for many years) is a pleasant "milk-chocolate" brown. A relatively small number of Pacific Island people are "typically Melanesian" (say, the inhabitants of the western Solomon Islands) and a few more (like the people of Tonga or Samoa) often conform to a "typical Polynesian" image, with heavily built bodies tending to obesity in middle-age, and relatively light skins. Overall, however, one is tempted to consider the whole Polynesian/Melanesian distinction as a European artifact. In relation to the strongly anti-racist point Hammerstein wanted to make all this has absolutely zilch notability - or relevance for that matter, but quibbling about whether the little de Becques are one thing or the other has even less relevance. Children, especially, of mixed European/Islander parentage vary in appearance from a "passing" colouration to quite dark, and pretty well everywhere in between. As for "Eurasian": in a colonial East Asian or Pacific setting this is very simply a blanket term for people of mixed race. Modern usage may be more specific so we probably need to avoid it here. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
First, I think we should use the first names Nellie and Emile, as is normal in our musicals articles. However, I would use Billings and Cable (and last names for other officers), where these officers are normally referred to that way by the other characters in the show. Second, in writing multi-page numbers with more than two digits, I suggest that we shorten the second number to two digits if it is within the same 100 range. For example, pp. 227–34 instead of pp. 227–234; also pp. 1,227–34; but, pp. 296–304, of course. Third, I suggest leaving off the period at the end of refs (before the /ref tag), just to save one keystroke (and clutter) in each ref. But I don't feel strongly about the third, if you prefer the period at the end. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 06:28, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Re: the "other songs", you might be able to skip discussion of reprises, unless they are dramatically important. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Themes (and any other text analysis) could go just under the Reception section, at least for now, I think. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on our PR for this important musical at the PR page reached by clicking here. We are on the way to FAC -- Ssilvers ( talk) 21:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I moved Mad Scientist's comments, and our replies, to the PR page. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 12:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Congrats to all on the passage of the article! Looking at this talk page, I'd like to archive everything which does not have a response in 2012 or 2013 and perhaps set up auto-archiving.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 10:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
I think in a sentence making a statement about R&H's intent we should use contemporary language where possible. It is almost in the same category as calling G&S "comic opera" (the 19th century term for British operetta/musical comedy) - the justification is simply that we are using a contemporary term. "Racism" is of course the current term for what we mean, but it was pretty rare (and meant something rather different anyway) in the late fifties/early sixties (I was there, folks!). "Racialist" was actually more common - both opponents and supporters of South African apartheid used to call the then regime in that country a "racialist government". Calling the topic R&H were raising "the race question" certainly doesn't exclude the young in any way - in the most unlikely event that they don't get what is being talked about they can always click on the link. I know I have already been reverted on this one (and by an editor whose work on this article deserves every praise) - but reading "racism" in this sentence really grates. A very small point - but I'd love to have it properly discussed, at least. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with Soundofmusicals. Webster's dictionary says that the word "racism" has been current since the 1930s. Anti-racism#American_origins is a WP article that talks about the history of the fight against racism in earlier periods and uses the word "racism". Some early examples of use of the word:
An etymology of "racism" can be found in Singer, Marcus G. "Some Thoughts on Race and Racism" in Philosofihia 8 (1978), pp. 153-54. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 03:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
There has been some to- and froing over the "See also" section today. I see from the requisite guideline that "As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes"
, which precludes at least one of the links from appearing for a third time on the page. -
SchroCat (
talk)
18:12, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
How is it that an article of such significance as this has no "See also" section? There are no interesting, relevant, tangentially related topics? Not a one? That seems quite unlikely. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 18:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
I would like to request admin help. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 00:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Long story short: An editor above ( User:SchroCat) deleted my comments from this Talk Page (in the section immediately above). I reverted his edit, so that my comments would re-appear and would not be removed/deleted. Then, he accused me of deleting his comment (which in itself was the removal of my comment). And then he threatened me with an ANI report (in the edit summary). His edit summary is, quote, "Putting back in what the edit warrior reverted out. If you remove my comment again I will file an ANI report against you." Furthermore, he has called me various names ( "childish", "liar", "idiot", "edit warrior", etc.) and then accuses me of personal attacks. He has also accused me of edit wars. So, I want to be pre-emptive. And resolve this. Please advise. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 00:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure this should be done. They did not play in South Pacific by virtue of having been in the staged concert. It's not the same thing as the original show. It's a staged concert.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 14:23, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
From the lead:
The production won ten Tony Awards, including Best Musical, Best Score, and Best Libretto, and it is the only musical production to win Tony Awards in all four acting categories.
On a quick skim, I was unable to locate an as of date or a citation for this text in the body of the article. I find that the 2008 production won in all four design categories, but where do I find that it is the only one, in acting categories, or as of ? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 12:33, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
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Ssilvers is desperate to have a few instances of "however" in the article, because, you know, why not? But he can't bring himself to explain why or start a conversation here. So I've helped him out by starting the conversation. There, that wasn't so hard, was it? -- The Huhsz ( talk) 10:01, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
Do we need the new image of Juanita Hall as Bloody Mary? That part of the article had enough images, I think. Or maybe we can move the images around so that one of them goes into a less image-heavy part of the article? What do you think, User:Wehwalt? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 15:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
The musical theatre project has long advised that only "long-running, major-market" productions belong in the infobox (plus the original production, if it was elsewhere), except in unusual situations. For revivals of a Broadway show like this one, this means productions that either played on B'way or the WE, or US/UK national tours that ran for more than a year. Otherwise, the infoboxes would get hopelessly long (indeed, I think it's kind of silly to list *any* revivals in the infobox, other than the original production and first B'way or WE production). Also please note that this article is a WP:FA, so when it was promoted, lots of people reviewed the infobox and were happy with what was listed there as of 2013. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 07:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)