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On 14 May 2013, it was proposed that this article be moved from Sotah to Ordeal of the bitter water. The result of the discussion was page moved. |
It is logical and accurate that this article be called Sotah for the over-all subject and not just for its so-called "ordeal". Therefore Ordeal of the bitter water was redirceted to here with ALL its contents intact. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 10:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
In Jewish translations of Numbers, there's nothing about the accused woman being pregnant, nor was the ritual supposed to make her miscarry (it was actually supposed to make her and her lover explode). Here's a Jewish translation: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9933
Should there be something in here about how Jewish and Christian translations have different POVs on what the Sotah ritual actually is?( 162.140.67.10 ( talk) 13:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC))
The word "embroider" seems to be offering editorial on the life of Mary in a trivializing tone? Justaquery ( talk) 03:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
"Made to swallow the bitter water... that caused the curse... of adultery... while bare breasted... before a priest"?! Is this a fake allusion to ritual fellatio meant to discredit or insult, a real allusion to some pagan pre-Judaic weirdness, a sensationalist translation of something innocent, or for reals? And if for real, is this, then, a really badly written "politically correct" explanation of ritual humiliation of cheating wives or something? 68.183.124.21 ( talk) 20:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Lengthy discussion
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The result of the move request was: page moved to Ordeal of the bitter water. Remaining disambiguation can be done with hatnotes. Mini apolis 17:03, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
– restore to "ordeal of the bitter water" the term found in Jacob Neusner The Theology of the halakhah 2001 Page 107 and other English-language scholarly sources relating both to original context in Numbers 5 and also to commentary on Numbers 5 in the Talmud.
Sotah should move to Note to closer - since RM was placed Sotah (Talmud) has changed from a redirect to Nashim to a standalone article, see strikeouts in text above, this may mean that Sotah (Talmud) should move to Sotah, see below
If the decision eventually is to split an article on the woman from an article on the process, and the process alone is to be discussed here, another name to consider is "Ordeal of Jealousy" as per the
Encyclopedia Judaica. If that is the case, I would still strongly urge that the tractate title remain Sotah (tractate) and that Sotah itself be a brief article explaining that it is the term used for the woman. However, we still don't have a consensus to move this article yet. --
Avi (
talk)
16:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think the main crux of the disagreement In octi and I share emanates from our different conceptions of what this article should contain. Please correct me if I am wrong but:
If I am correct, I think we need to address this question before deciding on any moves. I would think that if 1 proves to be the consensus, we have the following structure:
If 2 proves to be the consesus, I suggest:
Thoughts? -- Avi ( talk) 16:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think that my concerns would be addressed if Sotah redirects here with a See also at top for the Talmud article (the lede would have to change a tad). I'd prefer that than a DAB page. In that case, I will retract my opposition, and instead recommend that this be moved to "ordeal of jealousy". -- Avi ( talk) 17:39, 7 June 2013 (UTC) See above Note to closer - since RM was placed Sotah (Talmud) has changed from a redirect to Nashim to a standalone article, see strikeouts in text above, this may mean that Sotah (Talmud) should move to Sotah, see below Should Sotah (Talmud) move to Sotah, or Sotah be a dab between the ordeal of bitter water and the Tractate? Per WP:TWODABS I believe the first is normal WP:DAB treatment. In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:01, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
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We should mention that according to Chazal, the ordeal tests the husband as well, and if he is guilty of the same he is punished similarly. I have to look up the mekoros though, as I don't remember them off-hand. -- Avi ( talk) 14:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
In octuli, perhaps I am just obtuse, but what does your recent edit add to the understanding of the topic? I'm not even sure what it means. Thanks. -- Avi ( talk) 14:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The article seems to contradict itself on this matter stating:
It cites Mishna, Sotah, 1:5, but as far as I can tell the Mishnah says:
I don't see any further elaboration in the Talmude [2], Nor in Mishneh Torah [3]. however, the Jewish encyclopedia states:
Yaakovaryeh ( talk) 00:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
References
see above Johnphantom ( talk) 00:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
This template creates an external link. The external links content guideline states that external links "should not normally be used in the body of an article". Furthermore, the use of inline parenthetical referencing is now deprecated on Wikipedia. Place external links to the Bible in footnotes, but be aware that the Bible may be considered a primary source, which should be used with care in sourcing Wikipedia articles.
I only changed the first one in the article because I want to see how this is received. ( talk) 12:07, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ordeal of the bitter water article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 14 May 2013, it was proposed that this article be moved from Sotah to Ordeal of the bitter water. The result of the discussion was page moved. |
It is logical and accurate that this article be called Sotah for the over-all subject and not just for its so-called "ordeal". Therefore Ordeal of the bitter water was redirceted to here with ALL its contents intact. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 10:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
In Jewish translations of Numbers, there's nothing about the accused woman being pregnant, nor was the ritual supposed to make her miscarry (it was actually supposed to make her and her lover explode). Here's a Jewish translation: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9933
Should there be something in here about how Jewish and Christian translations have different POVs on what the Sotah ritual actually is?( 162.140.67.10 ( talk) 13:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC))
The word "embroider" seems to be offering editorial on the life of Mary in a trivializing tone? Justaquery ( talk) 03:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
"Made to swallow the bitter water... that caused the curse... of adultery... while bare breasted... before a priest"?! Is this a fake allusion to ritual fellatio meant to discredit or insult, a real allusion to some pagan pre-Judaic weirdness, a sensationalist translation of something innocent, or for reals? And if for real, is this, then, a really badly written "politically correct" explanation of ritual humiliation of cheating wives or something? 68.183.124.21 ( talk) 20:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Lengthy discussion
|
---|
The result of the move request was: page moved to Ordeal of the bitter water. Remaining disambiguation can be done with hatnotes. Mini apolis 17:03, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
– restore to "ordeal of the bitter water" the term found in Jacob Neusner The Theology of the halakhah 2001 Page 107 and other English-language scholarly sources relating both to original context in Numbers 5 and also to commentary on Numbers 5 in the Talmud.
Sotah should move to Note to closer - since RM was placed Sotah (Talmud) has changed from a redirect to Nashim to a standalone article, see strikeouts in text above, this may mean that Sotah (Talmud) should move to Sotah, see below
If the decision eventually is to split an article on the woman from an article on the process, and the process alone is to be discussed here, another name to consider is "Ordeal of Jealousy" as per the
Encyclopedia Judaica. If that is the case, I would still strongly urge that the tractate title remain Sotah (tractate) and that Sotah itself be a brief article explaining that it is the term used for the woman. However, we still don't have a consensus to move this article yet. --
Avi (
talk)
16:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think the main crux of the disagreement In octi and I share emanates from our different conceptions of what this article should contain. Please correct me if I am wrong but:
If I am correct, I think we need to address this question before deciding on any moves. I would think that if 1 proves to be the consensus, we have the following structure:
If 2 proves to be the consesus, I suggest:
Thoughts? -- Avi ( talk) 16:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think that my concerns would be addressed if Sotah redirects here with a See also at top for the Talmud article (the lede would have to change a tad). I'd prefer that than a DAB page. In that case, I will retract my opposition, and instead recommend that this be moved to "ordeal of jealousy". -- Avi ( talk) 17:39, 7 June 2013 (UTC) See above Note to closer - since RM was placed Sotah (Talmud) has changed from a redirect to Nashim to a standalone article, see strikeouts in text above, this may mean that Sotah (Talmud) should move to Sotah, see below Should Sotah (Talmud) move to Sotah, or Sotah be a dab between the ordeal of bitter water and the Tractate? Per WP:TWODABS I believe the first is normal WP:DAB treatment. In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:01, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
|
We should mention that according to Chazal, the ordeal tests the husband as well, and if he is guilty of the same he is punished similarly. I have to look up the mekoros though, as I don't remember them off-hand. -- Avi ( talk) 14:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
In octuli, perhaps I am just obtuse, but what does your recent edit add to the understanding of the topic? I'm not even sure what it means. Thanks. -- Avi ( talk) 14:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The article seems to contradict itself on this matter stating:
It cites Mishna, Sotah, 1:5, but as far as I can tell the Mishnah says:
I don't see any further elaboration in the Talmude [2], Nor in Mishneh Torah [3]. however, the Jewish encyclopedia states:
Yaakovaryeh ( talk) 00:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
References
see above Johnphantom ( talk) 00:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
This template creates an external link. The external links content guideline states that external links "should not normally be used in the body of an article". Furthermore, the use of inline parenthetical referencing is now deprecated on Wikipedia. Place external links to the Bible in footnotes, but be aware that the Bible may be considered a primary source, which should be used with care in sourcing Wikipedia articles.
I only changed the first one in the article because I want to see how this is received. ( talk) 12:07, 23 October 2022 (UTC)