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Archive 1 |
I would argue that Catherine Zeta-Jones is an endomorph, and Oprah winfrey is a mesomorph. Are you kidding me?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.214.66 ( talk) 12:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Chaps. I think Mariah Carey as anything but an Endomorph is complete nonsense. She's in fantastic condition but look at the size of her hips/thighs - Ecto/Meso/Endo-morph is a reference to one's body shape potential rather than anything else
Keira Knightley/Peter Crouch are very obvious examples of Ectomorphs to my mind. I think Lio Messi, Fernando Torres, Cristiano Ronaldo, Caterina Murino (not related to the special needs who managed Chelsea), Claude Makelele, Samuel Eto'o, Tom Cruise,
Josh Lewsey, Ronaldinho, Kelly Holmes, Thierry Henry, Christine Ohuruogu, Didier Drogba, Jada Pinkett Smith, Will Smith, Bryan Habana, Asafa Powell, - Mesomorphs
Felipe Contepomi/Javier Mascherano/Diego Maradona/Zinedine Zidane/Brian O'Driscoll/Jonah Lomu/Gordon D'Arcy/Wayne Rooney/Jonny Wilkinson/Carlos Tevez/Ryan Babel/Ronaldo (Luis Nazário de Lima) are clearly endomorphs - huge hips and all are disproportionately strong for their height. Catherine Bell, Mariah Carey are Endomorphs surely?
Out of curiousity, what's the view on Xabi & Cesc? Ecto or Meso-morphs? Micah Richards is a Meso or Endo-morph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewpbyrne ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't Angelina Jolie be a mesomorph rather than an ectomorph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnkhAnanku ( talk • contribs) 16:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the paragraphs here mention this.
I'm not sure this is at ALL possible. I mean, perhaps, there is a terribly low chance, but nontheless, this is almost an impossibility. All the males, from my father's (Who can be described as an ectomorph) side , are all skinny, and all of which had been underweight at some point in their lives, including myself. There is not one overweight male from this, obviously genetically skinny, family. I'm not sure you can so sure you can positively suggest that an ectomorph can become overweight, unless, the tactics an ectomorph uses are drug-related. And even with gained weight, the chances of going over the average weight, for an ectomorph, seems almost outrageous in my mind. Perhaps this is just my bias talking, but being an ectomorph, and researching my family, we've all had issues where becoming fat, as an ectomorph, is almost a fairy tale. Growing even to a normal weight is extremely difficult, never mind becoming overwight.
This article seems to indicate that the somatotype theory is outdated, but this is only clear with the New Age part. For the rest, it is ambiguous (except for physical training). Please clarify wether or not this is an outdated theory and why. Reply to David Latapie, an ectomorph ;-)
I've tried to make a more constructive analysis of the legacy of William Sheldon's work. The behavioral conclusions are quite laughable if carried very far, but there is a valid biological core...deeply buried, but useful. To pretend that slender build, muscular build, and portly build, don't exist as "extremes" of type, is about as "PC silly" as saying that nobody is "tall" "medium" or "short". Lets keep the core idea, but cut out the behavioral "stereotyping". My handle means,"Native-born Californian", I'm no right wing wacko, just a guy who contributes a lot of Wiki stuff about my state. Nativeborncal 06:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
"Many slender men consciously "carbed up" to gain an unhealthful forty extra pounds so that they could look more like the stereotypical mesomorphic "Jock". These same men may now be more obese than they appear, or may have even died from the transformation. Seventy pounds over ideal weight for your true body type can be deadly."
I would love to see a source on this. The idea that there is a mortal danger in bulking 70lbs of muscle over a so-called "ideal weight" sounds very much unfounded to me.
I don't think the writer was referring to muscle, but I'm commenting-out the whole section for now. - Objectivist-C 18:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added some more facts and insights into the section for accuracy sake. Sheldon's theory is not "outdated" by any means; it just was never taken seriously because of it's unfortunate debut during the Nazi era. Sheldon's work just didn't fit in with the secular humanism movement which took over psychology departments; talk of biolgoical contributions to behavior were just dismissed because it did not fit with cherished political views. Nobody wanted to talk about Darwin either. That's all changed since Jerome Kagan started looking at temperament. I'm not saying Sheldon's theory is right, I'm just saying it was never really followed up on. Doc Stone
I am glad someone brought this up because the Somatotype section, indicating that you can change your Somatotype, is dangerous in general. I was actually a personal trainer for years and I have an Endomorph bodytype. There is absolutely no way that I could become a Mesomorph. This would be like re-defining your bone density. I am a large man, at 225lbs 6'0" tall, I can benchpress 400lbs, I'm strong as a bull, but I am not nearly as "cut" as some of my training counterparts, and I never will be. I may get a vague outline of a vein, but not the bursting blood vessels of some.
The biggest misconception that people have about their body is that with a little (or a lot) of work, they can change it. However, that isn't true. You can certainly become slender, or strong, or muscular, but you won't look like the body builders on television unless you are a Mesomorph. Similarly, you can be a fat ectomorph, but you will never gain the same weight as an endomorph. I think that where people go wrong is they believe that they simply have to put in the time and be dedicated to a healthy lifestyle. This will help you become the best you can, but there will always be limitations based on your body type.
If there is one thing that really needs to be said here, it is that giving people false hope like this is not healthy. Be sure that when you do enter a training program which includes supplements, that you consult your physician. Abuse of supplements such as carbs, creatine, etc., can lead to death, which is why it is important to know your body type, for one, and don't mix supplements unless you are fully aware of the contents of the supplement and its possible side-effects.
The article at Body type (exercise), while largely a set of "how-to" exercise tips (see #8 under What Wikipedia is not), repeats a great deal of what is already included in this article, and is entirely based on this principle. I propose removing the exercise tips and merging whatever is left of that article with this one. Kafziel 20:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Be that as it may, while your section adds important information about Sheldon's work, it is teetering on POV. Your above statement of Secular Humanism is much more meaningful than "Left-Wing". Using the information you provided above I'll attempt a reword.
What is POV? I agree that Left-Wing was a tad harsh, although generally accurate. Regarding Phrenology, it's a knee-jerk reaction to laugh at it. In reality, phrenology represented two major advances over the Standard Social Science Model of the time: (1) The mind was a physical organ, and (2) social-cogntiive functions are localilzed. The history of neuroscience has been a struggle between the materialists and the Cartesian generalists; The Cartesians have steadily been losing. How do I time-stamp my comments with Username like the others? I want to get in the flow here Docstone
I think merging is a good idea -- I think it's important that the terms endo- ecto- and meso-morphic are connected with Sheldon, and seen as part of a larger theory of personality. Disconnecting the morphological terms makes them appear a bit too self-evident, I'd say.. as if they are theory-neutral. Citynoise 21:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This article needs more sources and citations, especially the popular culture section. I tagged it as such (especially because of lines like "for political and not intellectually honest reasons"... which to me, almost never reads NPOV). Janet13 00:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This article begins: "Using anthropometric methods Sheldon studied the photographed bodies of some 4,000 men ..."
and toward the end says: "Sheldon's 4,000 photographs of nude Yale undergraduates were destroyed. An interesting footnote is that the collection included George H. W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, and many other famous political figures."
Wasn't this study done in the 1940's? Was it done with men or women or both? How could Hillary Clinton have been part of the photo collection? I too would like to see some clarification and citation. -- Glitterspray 16:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If you ask me, that whole section is suspect. It's shouldn't be where it is, for one, because it has nothing to do with popular culture. Second, it reads like a "rehabilitation" of somatotypes by a Sheldon True Believer. Especially considering that the usefulness of the personality types associated with the somatotypes is debunked rather neatly by the observation that the "jolly fat folk" endomorphs in realy have a higher rate of depression -- which is mentioned in this very article. Couples with the lack of citations, ridiculous claims, and the classic True Believer defence that Sheldon was only ignored because people conflated his work with Nazism (and not because, say, he was wrong), I'd say the whole section should go. However, I won't delete it. Instead, I'll create a new section for it called "A Defence of Sheldon". The supporters of that section's claims should find references for them. Joshua Nicholson 13:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
What is a Klein? Is this a common term? Shouldn't we have a link to a definition of this term or do away with it altogether?
I've merged endomorphic, mesomorphic, and ectomorphic, and various of their redirects, to here. The external links need checking (and probably trimming). -- Quiddity 01:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys just wondeirng, some people refer to ectomorphs as people with small, possibly brittle bones and/or joints for whatever reasons, dietary or hereditary...of course other types can have brittle bones but its a marker for the ectomorph body type i think, in general. i was thinking, though, doesnt everyone have small bones relatively speaking? like when people say im not fat im just big boned...how big?! arent most humans extremely small skeleton?[ie. we all look thin as hell without muscle mass and body fat]
let me know, its bugging me.
Thanks. -- AF1987 05:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It all depends, really. It's more than just bones...it's actually your muscle and metabolism. I've done some editing, because someone who wrote this definitely had a mesomorphic bias. I've seen a good amount of slender endomorphs and overweight mesomorphs. Ectomorphs can still put on muscle, though it takes more work. Plus they added stereotype, though wrote is more as "fact," but if you look at people there are a lot of very depressed ectomorphs and mesomorphs, artistic endomorphs and mesomorphs, and ectomorphs that have been able to put on weight and muscle. Body build actually depends on the origins of your ancestory, not your personality. That's why full Africans are usually ectomorph and whites tend to be mesomorph and endomorph...it's based on location of origin for weather tolerance, not personality. Personality is just what you turn out to be. I'm an endomorph/mesomorph (endo dominant), but my personality is definitely most suited towards the ectomorph stereotype. Plus, talk about brittle, my great aunt is a mesomorph and her bones are dangerously brittle. Black Kat 16:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This article was quite comical in its condescending tone to a set of vocabulary that is in standard use. Saying the types are obsolete, hinting at them being the basis for apocalyptic eugenics, and refusing to discuss them without associating in some extreme stereotypes makes this article totally NPOV. Personally, I'm so endomorphic I've had multiple weight-trainers quit on me because after an hour a day for months on end, my body builds no muscle. It simply doesn't. In fact, a weight training professor back in college graded everyone on performance, and eventually pulled me aside and said he'd never seen anyone show up every day to class, work out the whole time (with a weight training PhD watching), and show little to no progress. And no, it's not a chemical or a nutrition thing--we've checked those. My boss is similar--she's been 100% vegetarian for 40 years, and she would count as morbidly obese on any BMI. Anyway, I think the article needs be cleaned up by someone to make it more neutral in tone and so as to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. -- Mrcolj 23:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
A weight training PhD? Did your college by any chance have a faculty of juggling? 89.101.187.201 05:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not at all knowledgeable in this area (hence my turning to WP for info), but it seems to me as though there are several key explanations missing from this article:
• What causes a person to develop into their particular somatotype? Since Sheldon named the types after embryonic germ layers, is the person's somatotype determined in utero?
• Is there any non-anecdotal research indicating that a person's somatotype can change?
• Is there any research indicating that this theory does/doesn't apply to women? The article only refers to Sheldon's research with men. What about application to other species?
• There are references to this theory being obsolete. Are there new theories to replace it, or is it simply discredited?
• Is this even technically a scientific
theory?
Those were the obvious questions that occurred to me while I was reading the article. is that info available? It seems kind of weird that it's not in the article.
Mattymatt
23:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
how can someone possible say that a mesomorph has low fat levels?....I work out every day and am considered by all my friends to be a big guy,and while im not obese im average weight,my best friend is the same height as me and is also a big guy though he has more fat than me,low fat levels are subjective to diet not genetics.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.67.20 ( talk) 14:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, low fat levels are not subjective to diet. Sure, you can eat healthily, but that will not guarantee you a low body fat %. My ectomorph boyfriend can chow down on as much fatty food as he wants, yet he won't gain an ounce and has less than 4% body fat. I've also had a gym teacher in high school who was heavyset (she had an apple shaped body, to be honest). The woman was very healthy, would walk 5 miles to and from the school, ate properly, and no matter what she does, she will always be heavyset. It's probably not a good idea to go around spewing your beliefs without any factual backup/proven research in the future. There is just as much factored in with genetic structure as there is with your diet.
Just my two cents.
-- 70.180.188.247 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC) -- 70.180.188.247 18:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (edit to prevent wiki program from complaining about lack of signature... corrected some poor grammar in my comment)
I'm not quite sure how your anecdotal chit chat is any more valid than the original poster's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.172.122 ( talk) 11:26, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
However, the United States is known to have the biggest proportion of obese people in the world – which does not indicate a higher number of endomorphs but rather a higher number of people with eating disorders.[citation needed] A lack of food in other countries can also go hand-in-hand with a lower proportion of obese people.[citation needed] Anyone can become fat – even an ectomorph – and being fat is not the same as 'being endomorphic'; therefore the disorders above merely illuminate disorders that cause, are caused by or can go hand-in-hand with eating disorders.
The section on "Stereotyping using somatotypes" seems like it needs some major work, or to be removed. I'm tempted to remove it entirely, but won't for now at least, since there may be something salvagable in it. I can't see from that section why it's relevant that certain psychological disorders are more prevalent in obese people, especially since it states that obese people can have different body types according to this system. I find it rather offensive that this section implies that obesity is due to "eating disorders". Take a look at the article about obesity, it lists various causes, such as genetics and various medical conditions, as well as lifestyle factors. The assumption that obesity is simply an effect of overeating or an "eating disorder" is simplistic and for many people incorrect, and seems rather derogatory. It's also unclear what this section has to do with "stereotyping". Maybe I've misread this section, and if that's the case, then I hope someone will reword it for clarity and add more citations. -- Brokenchairs 08:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I renamed this? Then, we could have a section on Sheldon in the intro, and discuss its modern use in physiology more in later sections. II | ( t - c) 02:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
There is not much in the section on modern, and possibly legitimate, usage of somatotypes, such as in weight training. I know Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding has a bit on it, but I have to wonder whether this usage is almost as much nonsense as the former, psychological, usage. Can ones somatotype be changed? How can one calculate one's somatotype, particularly given how one's bodyshape can change depending on one's diet and physical activity? - 121.208.93.203 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC).
The bulleted list in the "The Three Types" section giving the ecto/meso/endo-morphic types has a "usually referred to as" parenthetical at the end of each bullet. Respectively, this list ends the parenthetical with "slim," "muscular," and "fat." What is the cite for this. This terms, from my understanding, would be inaccurate as they refer only to fat levels (except maybe for "slim" which could apply more broadly in this context). In fact, an endomorphic body type can be slim (low fat) and an ectomorphic body type can be fat (although, not too common, but fat ectomorphs stand out as looking rather negatively peculiar, moderately fat endomorphs are generally perceived more positively than moderately fat ectomorphs). Likewise, all three types can be "muscular" or non-muscular (although ectomorphs tend to have more difficulty in building muscle mass). I'm not sure what adjectives would be best for the parentheticals of each bullet item, but the ones currently listed are definitely not them. Gracile would fit well for ectomorphic, but that adjective would not be in common use among the general populous. "Big-boned" would be good for endomorphic if it were not for the fact that the adjective is usually seen as a euphemism for "fat." Possible adjectives that I could think of that could be used here include: willowy, lanky, small-boned, medium build, heavy build. A problem I see with the last two is that they could be read to be referring to muscle mass when the intent is more toward structure. Any suggestion for better adjectives, or at least a cite (plus a suggested clarification that could be added to the parentheticals) for the current adjectives??? — al-Shimoni ( talk) 03:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
A mesomorph who just loses muscle mass becomes an ectomorph;if (s)he also gains fat,(s)he becomes an endomorph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.124.98.143 ( talk) 03:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I have removed material not mentioned in the original source ("energy" in any sense but the ordinary one, "neurons", "steroids" were all not mentioned there) and that supported only by self-published references. I also question the link to the archive.org copy, since its copyright status is at best disputable (1942 material is within US copyright limits until 2017). Allens ( talk) 21:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
OK, I'm willing to help with a response to the 3O request, if you'll have me. Please wait a while and I will be back with comments. -- FormerIP ( talk) 13:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
IP address to editing via account is, of course, fine.) I would be fine with reverting back to [3] then updating with material/details found in the reliable sources (without original research/synthesis); I am not attached to my rather-trimmed-down version. Allens ( talk) 13:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
This is my present to you, guys:
Viscerotonic people are extremely agglutinative. They tend to club together and to seek their satisfactions by supporting the group against the variant individual, or against individuality. They are Epimethean, as contrasted with Promethean. This tendency is perhaps a natural outcome of the combination of strong biological appetite and individual muscular weakness. Cerebrotonic people, lovers of solitude, represent an exactly antithetical tendency, and when they have a fairly strong supporting somatotonia they tend to become individualists, and haters of viscerotonic propriety. Along this cleavage line, many of the generalized hostilities seen in human life appear to take their origin.
- —Sheldon, William H. ♦ The Varieties of Temperament Harper & Brothers, 1942, p. 36
Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Somatotype_and_constitutional_psychology&oldid=463529446#Viscerotonia — Editor75439 ( talk) 18:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
What's the sourcing for "tridemesional organism", "unidimensional organism", "degrees of freedom", "condensed", "spiritual vacuity", "totalitarian aggregate"? We should use specialist terminology only as it is found in the sources.-- FormerIP ( talk) 12:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
As the subject line says... Some further trimming as FormerIP indicated may be necessary, and on the other hand expansion is also distinctly necessary (or at least will be once FormerIP's suggested edits are done). Merger with Sheldon's article certainly might be indicated, but not simply redirecting it without first actually doing the merger. Allens ( talk) 04:46, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
The copyright of a book, published from 1923 through 1963, expires 28 years after publication, if not renewed:
The copyright of William Sheldon's The Varieties of Temperament has not ever been renewed since its original publication in 1942, which means that the book is in the public domain since 1 January 1971: http://collections.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals/bin/search/advanced/process?clauseMapped(title)=The+varieties&clauseMapped(author)=Sheldon+William&clauseMapped(odatISO)=&clauseMapped(dregISO)= — Editor75439 ( talk) 09:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Where did this table come from? we need horizontal labels to specify what each row is supposed to represent, and I'd prefer to see what Sheldon said rather than in ferring from the contents. -- Ludwigs2 18:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I have semi-protected the article for 3 days as a result of recent edit warring by a new user and the claim that they are a returning ip editor. Hopefully that will give you all time to fix all the problems they caused. Spartaz Humbug! 05:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I have been engaged in removing much uncited material, putting back in material giving a more neutral point of view by critiquing this fringe theory, and removing original research/syntheses (including one critical of Sheldon, incidentally). (If we were to allow original syntheses to be put into this article, we would need to bluntly describe this theory as racist, instead of letting the reader judge for themselves the meaning of terms such as "Mongoloids" (and I have removed insufficiently cited terms such as "Nordics" and "Jews", which would further confirm this evaluation); I do not think the editor engaging in insertion of original syntheses would appreciate this. Allens ( talk) 18:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
The scientific community cannot refute a concept just by calling it quackery. A scientific concept can only be disproved by experimental evidence. All known experimental studies undertaken to test Sheldon's findings have produced supportive evidence for his position:
Sheldon maintained that the person's somatotype is genetically determined and causes people to develop and express personality traits consistent with their body builds. For example, he hypothesized that endomorphs (high in fatty tissue) would be sociable, complacent, and capable of easy communication of feelings. He thought mesomorphs (high in muscle tissue) would be adventurous, bold, competitive, aggressive, and energetic, whereas ectomorphs (low in fatty and muscle tissue) would be inhibited, introverted, hypersensitive to pain, and secretive. He tested these hypotheses by having observers rate individuals on these trait dimensions and found empirical support for his ideas (Sheldon, Hartl, & McDermott, 1949, pp. 26–27). Although this study has been strongly criticized on methodological grounds (Sheldon himself made both the physical and psychological ratings), more methodologically sound studies—in which investigator bias was minimized by having one investigator rate the somatotypes and having the study participants independently rate their own personality traits—have also produced supportive evidence for Sheldon's position (Child, 1950; Cortes & Gatti, 1965; Yates & Taylor, 1978).
- — Ryckman, Richard M. Theories of Personality Ninth edition, Cengage Learning, 2007, p. 260
— 89.110.28.44 ( talk) 06:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Sourced content should not be removed. If an editor wishes to add content it should be paraphrased and the references given properly. Once reverted before re adding content there should be discussion here. - - MrBill3 ( talk) 15:51, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
The sources presented to support the notion that this is still the subject of consideration currently were inaccurately represented. The first, Ryckman 2007 goes on to state, "Despite these findings, however, there is no direct proof that the correlations were caused by biological factors." and then discusses other theories that have supplanted Sheldon's. It does not provide any evidence that Sheldon's theories are the basis for any current research or are used in any way now. The second, Roeckelein 1998 is a dictionary of theories and lists Sheldon's with some explanation but again provides no evidence it is employed in any fashion currently. Roeckelein goes on to give the major criticisms of Sheldon's theory, that it's not a theory at all but a single assumption with a set of descriptive concepts, that Sheldon's work was methodologically flawed and that the factors he assessed are not consistent but change. Lengthy quotes are note needed in references, that's what a reference list is for, to verify one can read the source. - - MrBill3 ( talk) 03:52, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
In addition to the recent reference added and making a more full reading of the other sources see also Weckowicz & Liebel-Weckowicz, 1990 pp. 220-1 ISBN 9780080867205. It's pretty clear that this theory was dead in the water over 25 years ago. - - MrBill3 ( talk) 05:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I have moved Ref 13 ("Physique correlates with reproductive success in an archival sample of delinquent youth") from "Sheldon's methodology and theories have been extensively criticized and largely discredited.[1][13]" to "Sheldon's methodology[13] and theories have been extensively criticized and largely discredited.[1]"
because in the study you can read "In this study legitimate questions can be raised about Sheldon’s sampling methods and the rigor of his measurements, especially for the structural integration variables." yet "However, this research suggests that somatotype remains a useful approach to quantifying physique. While Sheldon’s dream of a comprehensive constitutional psychology based on his dimensions may never be realized, understanding how body morphology is related to sexual selection, mating effort, and other behaviors remains an important area for research." which is different from criticizing and discrediting is theories… — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zwegenschen ( talk • contribs) 18:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
192000 search results on internet — Preceding unsigned comment added by Granito diaz ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
83.104.51.74 ( talk) 17:38, 16 June 2015 (UTC) -- the word "discredited" has been replaced with the word "neglected".
I added the bias tag as much for the tone as the content presented. This article is heavily skewed against Sheldon's work without providing references for many of the criticisms. Not all psychologists have rejected his work, and here all sides should be presented and the reader allowed to make their own judgements. 198.214.85.199 ( talk) 20:08, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Body build is associated with specific athletic skills—the best fencers, oarsmen, and basketball players, for example, tend to be tall and lean; top swimmers, divers, and pole vaulters are likely to be broad-shouldered and slim-hipped; champion wrestlers, shot putters, and weight lifters are apt to be thick-trunked and short-limbed. While body type does not guarantee athletic prowess, it can contribute to success in certain sports. Similar considerations apply to vocal and instrumental musical aptitudes wherein unique combinations of such anatomical structures as lips, teeth, larynx, tongue, eyes, ears, hands, and arms can facilitate the attainment of virtuoso skill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.94.37.27 ( talk) 16:11, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
The goofy hypothesis that body types are somehow related to personality is obviously wrong, disproven by hundreds of millions of people alive & dead who disprove all of its claims by their contrary behaviors. The body types are mentioned all over body-building media, health & fitness media, but this quack psychology is so obscure that reading this article in 2016 is the first time I've ever heard of it. The body types deserve their own articles with no reference in them to this article on bogus psychology. This hypothesis is so obscure, and wrong, that it isn't even worthy of additional links to this article. Ace Frahm ( talk) 00:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
The formula for Ponderal Index listed in the article doesn't match the formula used by Heath/Carter for determining ectomorphy. Per the Heath-Carter Anthropometric Somatotype Instruction Manual by Carter, the formula should be height in centimeters divided by the cube root of weight in kilograms. I'd make the change on the article myself, but I don't know anything about how to format properly, etc., especially with images involved. The formulas for converting this value into the actual ectomorphy value are also slightly different in the instruction manual, which is from 2002. Perhaps these formulas have been changed slightly since the original publication in the 1960s? 68.97.4.151 ( talk) 16:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Carleton University supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2012 Q1 term. Further details are available on the course page.
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on 15:30, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I checked Reference N.4 but instead of a scientific paper, it redirects me to a Russian NSFW site? It's just me or someone decided to vandalise the page?
--This is one of the reasons I placed the bias tag on the article. 198.214.85.199 ( talk) 20:11, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Aréat, regarding this and this? Since an editor -- Crossroads -- has objected, maybe discuss this on the talk page first? I do not feel strongly on this matter; so I'd rather not be heavily engaged in this discussion. Maybe an RfC will need to be started. I will state now that I don't see that the images are needed in this article.
Please don't ping me. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 23:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
I will state now that I don't see that the images are needed in this article.You can't add an image just because you do like it. And the WP:ONUS is on you for it. Crossroads -talk- 19:16, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I would argue that Catherine Zeta-Jones is an endomorph, and Oprah winfrey is a mesomorph. Are you kidding me?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.214.66 ( talk) 12:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Chaps. I think Mariah Carey as anything but an Endomorph is complete nonsense. She's in fantastic condition but look at the size of her hips/thighs - Ecto/Meso/Endo-morph is a reference to one's body shape potential rather than anything else
Keira Knightley/Peter Crouch are very obvious examples of Ectomorphs to my mind. I think Lio Messi, Fernando Torres, Cristiano Ronaldo, Caterina Murino (not related to the special needs who managed Chelsea), Claude Makelele, Samuel Eto'o, Tom Cruise,
Josh Lewsey, Ronaldinho, Kelly Holmes, Thierry Henry, Christine Ohuruogu, Didier Drogba, Jada Pinkett Smith, Will Smith, Bryan Habana, Asafa Powell, - Mesomorphs
Felipe Contepomi/Javier Mascherano/Diego Maradona/Zinedine Zidane/Brian O'Driscoll/Jonah Lomu/Gordon D'Arcy/Wayne Rooney/Jonny Wilkinson/Carlos Tevez/Ryan Babel/Ronaldo (Luis Nazário de Lima) are clearly endomorphs - huge hips and all are disproportionately strong for their height. Catherine Bell, Mariah Carey are Endomorphs surely?
Out of curiousity, what's the view on Xabi & Cesc? Ecto or Meso-morphs? Micah Richards is a Meso or Endo-morph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewpbyrne ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't Angelina Jolie be a mesomorph rather than an ectomorph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnkhAnanku ( talk • contribs) 16:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the paragraphs here mention this.
I'm not sure this is at ALL possible. I mean, perhaps, there is a terribly low chance, but nontheless, this is almost an impossibility. All the males, from my father's (Who can be described as an ectomorph) side , are all skinny, and all of which had been underweight at some point in their lives, including myself. There is not one overweight male from this, obviously genetically skinny, family. I'm not sure you can so sure you can positively suggest that an ectomorph can become overweight, unless, the tactics an ectomorph uses are drug-related. And even with gained weight, the chances of going over the average weight, for an ectomorph, seems almost outrageous in my mind. Perhaps this is just my bias talking, but being an ectomorph, and researching my family, we've all had issues where becoming fat, as an ectomorph, is almost a fairy tale. Growing even to a normal weight is extremely difficult, never mind becoming overwight.
This article seems to indicate that the somatotype theory is outdated, but this is only clear with the New Age part. For the rest, it is ambiguous (except for physical training). Please clarify wether or not this is an outdated theory and why. Reply to David Latapie, an ectomorph ;-)
I've tried to make a more constructive analysis of the legacy of William Sheldon's work. The behavioral conclusions are quite laughable if carried very far, but there is a valid biological core...deeply buried, but useful. To pretend that slender build, muscular build, and portly build, don't exist as "extremes" of type, is about as "PC silly" as saying that nobody is "tall" "medium" or "short". Lets keep the core idea, but cut out the behavioral "stereotyping". My handle means,"Native-born Californian", I'm no right wing wacko, just a guy who contributes a lot of Wiki stuff about my state. Nativeborncal 06:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
"Many slender men consciously "carbed up" to gain an unhealthful forty extra pounds so that they could look more like the stereotypical mesomorphic "Jock". These same men may now be more obese than they appear, or may have even died from the transformation. Seventy pounds over ideal weight for your true body type can be deadly."
I would love to see a source on this. The idea that there is a mortal danger in bulking 70lbs of muscle over a so-called "ideal weight" sounds very much unfounded to me.
I don't think the writer was referring to muscle, but I'm commenting-out the whole section for now. - Objectivist-C 18:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added some more facts and insights into the section for accuracy sake. Sheldon's theory is not "outdated" by any means; it just was never taken seriously because of it's unfortunate debut during the Nazi era. Sheldon's work just didn't fit in with the secular humanism movement which took over psychology departments; talk of biolgoical contributions to behavior were just dismissed because it did not fit with cherished political views. Nobody wanted to talk about Darwin either. That's all changed since Jerome Kagan started looking at temperament. I'm not saying Sheldon's theory is right, I'm just saying it was never really followed up on. Doc Stone
I am glad someone brought this up because the Somatotype section, indicating that you can change your Somatotype, is dangerous in general. I was actually a personal trainer for years and I have an Endomorph bodytype. There is absolutely no way that I could become a Mesomorph. This would be like re-defining your bone density. I am a large man, at 225lbs 6'0" tall, I can benchpress 400lbs, I'm strong as a bull, but I am not nearly as "cut" as some of my training counterparts, and I never will be. I may get a vague outline of a vein, but not the bursting blood vessels of some.
The biggest misconception that people have about their body is that with a little (or a lot) of work, they can change it. However, that isn't true. You can certainly become slender, or strong, or muscular, but you won't look like the body builders on television unless you are a Mesomorph. Similarly, you can be a fat ectomorph, but you will never gain the same weight as an endomorph. I think that where people go wrong is they believe that they simply have to put in the time and be dedicated to a healthy lifestyle. This will help you become the best you can, but there will always be limitations based on your body type.
If there is one thing that really needs to be said here, it is that giving people false hope like this is not healthy. Be sure that when you do enter a training program which includes supplements, that you consult your physician. Abuse of supplements such as carbs, creatine, etc., can lead to death, which is why it is important to know your body type, for one, and don't mix supplements unless you are fully aware of the contents of the supplement and its possible side-effects.
The article at Body type (exercise), while largely a set of "how-to" exercise tips (see #8 under What Wikipedia is not), repeats a great deal of what is already included in this article, and is entirely based on this principle. I propose removing the exercise tips and merging whatever is left of that article with this one. Kafziel 20:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Be that as it may, while your section adds important information about Sheldon's work, it is teetering on POV. Your above statement of Secular Humanism is much more meaningful than "Left-Wing". Using the information you provided above I'll attempt a reword.
What is POV? I agree that Left-Wing was a tad harsh, although generally accurate. Regarding Phrenology, it's a knee-jerk reaction to laugh at it. In reality, phrenology represented two major advances over the Standard Social Science Model of the time: (1) The mind was a physical organ, and (2) social-cogntiive functions are localilzed. The history of neuroscience has been a struggle between the materialists and the Cartesian generalists; The Cartesians have steadily been losing. How do I time-stamp my comments with Username like the others? I want to get in the flow here Docstone
I think merging is a good idea -- I think it's important that the terms endo- ecto- and meso-morphic are connected with Sheldon, and seen as part of a larger theory of personality. Disconnecting the morphological terms makes them appear a bit too self-evident, I'd say.. as if they are theory-neutral. Citynoise 21:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This article needs more sources and citations, especially the popular culture section. I tagged it as such (especially because of lines like "for political and not intellectually honest reasons"... which to me, almost never reads NPOV). Janet13 00:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This article begins: "Using anthropometric methods Sheldon studied the photographed bodies of some 4,000 men ..."
and toward the end says: "Sheldon's 4,000 photographs of nude Yale undergraduates were destroyed. An interesting footnote is that the collection included George H. W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, and many other famous political figures."
Wasn't this study done in the 1940's? Was it done with men or women or both? How could Hillary Clinton have been part of the photo collection? I too would like to see some clarification and citation. -- Glitterspray 16:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If you ask me, that whole section is suspect. It's shouldn't be where it is, for one, because it has nothing to do with popular culture. Second, it reads like a "rehabilitation" of somatotypes by a Sheldon True Believer. Especially considering that the usefulness of the personality types associated with the somatotypes is debunked rather neatly by the observation that the "jolly fat folk" endomorphs in realy have a higher rate of depression -- which is mentioned in this very article. Couples with the lack of citations, ridiculous claims, and the classic True Believer defence that Sheldon was only ignored because people conflated his work with Nazism (and not because, say, he was wrong), I'd say the whole section should go. However, I won't delete it. Instead, I'll create a new section for it called "A Defence of Sheldon". The supporters of that section's claims should find references for them. Joshua Nicholson 13:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
What is a Klein? Is this a common term? Shouldn't we have a link to a definition of this term or do away with it altogether?
I've merged endomorphic, mesomorphic, and ectomorphic, and various of their redirects, to here. The external links need checking (and probably trimming). -- Quiddity 01:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys just wondeirng, some people refer to ectomorphs as people with small, possibly brittle bones and/or joints for whatever reasons, dietary or hereditary...of course other types can have brittle bones but its a marker for the ectomorph body type i think, in general. i was thinking, though, doesnt everyone have small bones relatively speaking? like when people say im not fat im just big boned...how big?! arent most humans extremely small skeleton?[ie. we all look thin as hell without muscle mass and body fat]
let me know, its bugging me.
Thanks. -- AF1987 05:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It all depends, really. It's more than just bones...it's actually your muscle and metabolism. I've done some editing, because someone who wrote this definitely had a mesomorphic bias. I've seen a good amount of slender endomorphs and overweight mesomorphs. Ectomorphs can still put on muscle, though it takes more work. Plus they added stereotype, though wrote is more as "fact," but if you look at people there are a lot of very depressed ectomorphs and mesomorphs, artistic endomorphs and mesomorphs, and ectomorphs that have been able to put on weight and muscle. Body build actually depends on the origins of your ancestory, not your personality. That's why full Africans are usually ectomorph and whites tend to be mesomorph and endomorph...it's based on location of origin for weather tolerance, not personality. Personality is just what you turn out to be. I'm an endomorph/mesomorph (endo dominant), but my personality is definitely most suited towards the ectomorph stereotype. Plus, talk about brittle, my great aunt is a mesomorph and her bones are dangerously brittle. Black Kat 16:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This article was quite comical in its condescending tone to a set of vocabulary that is in standard use. Saying the types are obsolete, hinting at them being the basis for apocalyptic eugenics, and refusing to discuss them without associating in some extreme stereotypes makes this article totally NPOV. Personally, I'm so endomorphic I've had multiple weight-trainers quit on me because after an hour a day for months on end, my body builds no muscle. It simply doesn't. In fact, a weight training professor back in college graded everyone on performance, and eventually pulled me aside and said he'd never seen anyone show up every day to class, work out the whole time (with a weight training PhD watching), and show little to no progress. And no, it's not a chemical or a nutrition thing--we've checked those. My boss is similar--she's been 100% vegetarian for 40 years, and she would count as morbidly obese on any BMI. Anyway, I think the article needs be cleaned up by someone to make it more neutral in tone and so as to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. -- Mrcolj 23:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
A weight training PhD? Did your college by any chance have a faculty of juggling? 89.101.187.201 05:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not at all knowledgeable in this area (hence my turning to WP for info), but it seems to me as though there are several key explanations missing from this article:
• What causes a person to develop into their particular somatotype? Since Sheldon named the types after embryonic germ layers, is the person's somatotype determined in utero?
• Is there any non-anecdotal research indicating that a person's somatotype can change?
• Is there any research indicating that this theory does/doesn't apply to women? The article only refers to Sheldon's research with men. What about application to other species?
• There are references to this theory being obsolete. Are there new theories to replace it, or is it simply discredited?
• Is this even technically a scientific
theory?
Those were the obvious questions that occurred to me while I was reading the article. is that info available? It seems kind of weird that it's not in the article.
Mattymatt
23:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
how can someone possible say that a mesomorph has low fat levels?....I work out every day and am considered by all my friends to be a big guy,and while im not obese im average weight,my best friend is the same height as me and is also a big guy though he has more fat than me,low fat levels are subjective to diet not genetics.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.67.20 ( talk) 14:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, low fat levels are not subjective to diet. Sure, you can eat healthily, but that will not guarantee you a low body fat %. My ectomorph boyfriend can chow down on as much fatty food as he wants, yet he won't gain an ounce and has less than 4% body fat. I've also had a gym teacher in high school who was heavyset (she had an apple shaped body, to be honest). The woman was very healthy, would walk 5 miles to and from the school, ate properly, and no matter what she does, she will always be heavyset. It's probably not a good idea to go around spewing your beliefs without any factual backup/proven research in the future. There is just as much factored in with genetic structure as there is with your diet.
Just my two cents.
-- 70.180.188.247 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC) -- 70.180.188.247 18:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (edit to prevent wiki program from complaining about lack of signature... corrected some poor grammar in my comment)
I'm not quite sure how your anecdotal chit chat is any more valid than the original poster's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.172.122 ( talk) 11:26, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
However, the United States is known to have the biggest proportion of obese people in the world – which does not indicate a higher number of endomorphs but rather a higher number of people with eating disorders.[citation needed] A lack of food in other countries can also go hand-in-hand with a lower proportion of obese people.[citation needed] Anyone can become fat – even an ectomorph – and being fat is not the same as 'being endomorphic'; therefore the disorders above merely illuminate disorders that cause, are caused by or can go hand-in-hand with eating disorders.
The section on "Stereotyping using somatotypes" seems like it needs some major work, or to be removed. I'm tempted to remove it entirely, but won't for now at least, since there may be something salvagable in it. I can't see from that section why it's relevant that certain psychological disorders are more prevalent in obese people, especially since it states that obese people can have different body types according to this system. I find it rather offensive that this section implies that obesity is due to "eating disorders". Take a look at the article about obesity, it lists various causes, such as genetics and various medical conditions, as well as lifestyle factors. The assumption that obesity is simply an effect of overeating or an "eating disorder" is simplistic and for many people incorrect, and seems rather derogatory. It's also unclear what this section has to do with "stereotyping". Maybe I've misread this section, and if that's the case, then I hope someone will reword it for clarity and add more citations. -- Brokenchairs 08:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I renamed this? Then, we could have a section on Sheldon in the intro, and discuss its modern use in physiology more in later sections. II | ( t - c) 02:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
There is not much in the section on modern, and possibly legitimate, usage of somatotypes, such as in weight training. I know Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding has a bit on it, but I have to wonder whether this usage is almost as much nonsense as the former, psychological, usage. Can ones somatotype be changed? How can one calculate one's somatotype, particularly given how one's bodyshape can change depending on one's diet and physical activity? - 121.208.93.203 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC).
The bulleted list in the "The Three Types" section giving the ecto/meso/endo-morphic types has a "usually referred to as" parenthetical at the end of each bullet. Respectively, this list ends the parenthetical with "slim," "muscular," and "fat." What is the cite for this. This terms, from my understanding, would be inaccurate as they refer only to fat levels (except maybe for "slim" which could apply more broadly in this context). In fact, an endomorphic body type can be slim (low fat) and an ectomorphic body type can be fat (although, not too common, but fat ectomorphs stand out as looking rather negatively peculiar, moderately fat endomorphs are generally perceived more positively than moderately fat ectomorphs). Likewise, all three types can be "muscular" or non-muscular (although ectomorphs tend to have more difficulty in building muscle mass). I'm not sure what adjectives would be best for the parentheticals of each bullet item, but the ones currently listed are definitely not them. Gracile would fit well for ectomorphic, but that adjective would not be in common use among the general populous. "Big-boned" would be good for endomorphic if it were not for the fact that the adjective is usually seen as a euphemism for "fat." Possible adjectives that I could think of that could be used here include: willowy, lanky, small-boned, medium build, heavy build. A problem I see with the last two is that they could be read to be referring to muscle mass when the intent is more toward structure. Any suggestion for better adjectives, or at least a cite (plus a suggested clarification that could be added to the parentheticals) for the current adjectives??? — al-Shimoni ( talk) 03:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
A mesomorph who just loses muscle mass becomes an ectomorph;if (s)he also gains fat,(s)he becomes an endomorph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.124.98.143 ( talk) 03:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I have removed material not mentioned in the original source ("energy" in any sense but the ordinary one, "neurons", "steroids" were all not mentioned there) and that supported only by self-published references. I also question the link to the archive.org copy, since its copyright status is at best disputable (1942 material is within US copyright limits until 2017). Allens ( talk) 21:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
OK, I'm willing to help with a response to the 3O request, if you'll have me. Please wait a while and I will be back with comments. -- FormerIP ( talk) 13:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
IP address to editing via account is, of course, fine.) I would be fine with reverting back to [3] then updating with material/details found in the reliable sources (without original research/synthesis); I am not attached to my rather-trimmed-down version. Allens ( talk) 13:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
This is my present to you, guys:
Viscerotonic people are extremely agglutinative. They tend to club together and to seek their satisfactions by supporting the group against the variant individual, or against individuality. They are Epimethean, as contrasted with Promethean. This tendency is perhaps a natural outcome of the combination of strong biological appetite and individual muscular weakness. Cerebrotonic people, lovers of solitude, represent an exactly antithetical tendency, and when they have a fairly strong supporting somatotonia they tend to become individualists, and haters of viscerotonic propriety. Along this cleavage line, many of the generalized hostilities seen in human life appear to take their origin.
- —Sheldon, William H. ♦ The Varieties of Temperament Harper & Brothers, 1942, p. 36
Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Somatotype_and_constitutional_psychology&oldid=463529446#Viscerotonia — Editor75439 ( talk) 18:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
What's the sourcing for "tridemesional organism", "unidimensional organism", "degrees of freedom", "condensed", "spiritual vacuity", "totalitarian aggregate"? We should use specialist terminology only as it is found in the sources.-- FormerIP ( talk) 12:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
As the subject line says... Some further trimming as FormerIP indicated may be necessary, and on the other hand expansion is also distinctly necessary (or at least will be once FormerIP's suggested edits are done). Merger with Sheldon's article certainly might be indicated, but not simply redirecting it without first actually doing the merger. Allens ( talk) 04:46, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
The copyright of a book, published from 1923 through 1963, expires 28 years after publication, if not renewed:
The copyright of William Sheldon's The Varieties of Temperament has not ever been renewed since its original publication in 1942, which means that the book is in the public domain since 1 January 1971: http://collections.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals/bin/search/advanced/process?clauseMapped(title)=The+varieties&clauseMapped(author)=Sheldon+William&clauseMapped(odatISO)=&clauseMapped(dregISO)= — Editor75439 ( talk) 09:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Where did this table come from? we need horizontal labels to specify what each row is supposed to represent, and I'd prefer to see what Sheldon said rather than in ferring from the contents. -- Ludwigs2 18:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I have semi-protected the article for 3 days as a result of recent edit warring by a new user and the claim that they are a returning ip editor. Hopefully that will give you all time to fix all the problems they caused. Spartaz Humbug! 05:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I have been engaged in removing much uncited material, putting back in material giving a more neutral point of view by critiquing this fringe theory, and removing original research/syntheses (including one critical of Sheldon, incidentally). (If we were to allow original syntheses to be put into this article, we would need to bluntly describe this theory as racist, instead of letting the reader judge for themselves the meaning of terms such as "Mongoloids" (and I have removed insufficiently cited terms such as "Nordics" and "Jews", which would further confirm this evaluation); I do not think the editor engaging in insertion of original syntheses would appreciate this. Allens ( talk) 18:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
The scientific community cannot refute a concept just by calling it quackery. A scientific concept can only be disproved by experimental evidence. All known experimental studies undertaken to test Sheldon's findings have produced supportive evidence for his position:
Sheldon maintained that the person's somatotype is genetically determined and causes people to develop and express personality traits consistent with their body builds. For example, he hypothesized that endomorphs (high in fatty tissue) would be sociable, complacent, and capable of easy communication of feelings. He thought mesomorphs (high in muscle tissue) would be adventurous, bold, competitive, aggressive, and energetic, whereas ectomorphs (low in fatty and muscle tissue) would be inhibited, introverted, hypersensitive to pain, and secretive. He tested these hypotheses by having observers rate individuals on these trait dimensions and found empirical support for his ideas (Sheldon, Hartl, & McDermott, 1949, pp. 26–27). Although this study has been strongly criticized on methodological grounds (Sheldon himself made both the physical and psychological ratings), more methodologically sound studies—in which investigator bias was minimized by having one investigator rate the somatotypes and having the study participants independently rate their own personality traits—have also produced supportive evidence for Sheldon's position (Child, 1950; Cortes & Gatti, 1965; Yates & Taylor, 1978).
- — Ryckman, Richard M. Theories of Personality Ninth edition, Cengage Learning, 2007, p. 260
— 89.110.28.44 ( talk) 06:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Sourced content should not be removed. If an editor wishes to add content it should be paraphrased and the references given properly. Once reverted before re adding content there should be discussion here. - - MrBill3 ( talk) 15:51, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
The sources presented to support the notion that this is still the subject of consideration currently were inaccurately represented. The first, Ryckman 2007 goes on to state, "Despite these findings, however, there is no direct proof that the correlations were caused by biological factors." and then discusses other theories that have supplanted Sheldon's. It does not provide any evidence that Sheldon's theories are the basis for any current research or are used in any way now. The second, Roeckelein 1998 is a dictionary of theories and lists Sheldon's with some explanation but again provides no evidence it is employed in any fashion currently. Roeckelein goes on to give the major criticisms of Sheldon's theory, that it's not a theory at all but a single assumption with a set of descriptive concepts, that Sheldon's work was methodologically flawed and that the factors he assessed are not consistent but change. Lengthy quotes are note needed in references, that's what a reference list is for, to verify one can read the source. - - MrBill3 ( talk) 03:52, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
In addition to the recent reference added and making a more full reading of the other sources see also Weckowicz & Liebel-Weckowicz, 1990 pp. 220-1 ISBN 9780080867205. It's pretty clear that this theory was dead in the water over 25 years ago. - - MrBill3 ( talk) 05:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I have moved Ref 13 ("Physique correlates with reproductive success in an archival sample of delinquent youth") from "Sheldon's methodology and theories have been extensively criticized and largely discredited.[1][13]" to "Sheldon's methodology[13] and theories have been extensively criticized and largely discredited.[1]"
because in the study you can read "In this study legitimate questions can be raised about Sheldon’s sampling methods and the rigor of his measurements, especially for the structural integration variables." yet "However, this research suggests that somatotype remains a useful approach to quantifying physique. While Sheldon’s dream of a comprehensive constitutional psychology based on his dimensions may never be realized, understanding how body morphology is related to sexual selection, mating effort, and other behaviors remains an important area for research." which is different from criticizing and discrediting is theories… — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zwegenschen ( talk • contribs) 18:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
192000 search results on internet — Preceding unsigned comment added by Granito diaz ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
83.104.51.74 ( talk) 17:38, 16 June 2015 (UTC) -- the word "discredited" has been replaced with the word "neglected".
I added the bias tag as much for the tone as the content presented. This article is heavily skewed against Sheldon's work without providing references for many of the criticisms. Not all psychologists have rejected his work, and here all sides should be presented and the reader allowed to make their own judgements. 198.214.85.199 ( talk) 20:08, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Body build is associated with specific athletic skills—the best fencers, oarsmen, and basketball players, for example, tend to be tall and lean; top swimmers, divers, and pole vaulters are likely to be broad-shouldered and slim-hipped; champion wrestlers, shot putters, and weight lifters are apt to be thick-trunked and short-limbed. While body type does not guarantee athletic prowess, it can contribute to success in certain sports. Similar considerations apply to vocal and instrumental musical aptitudes wherein unique combinations of such anatomical structures as lips, teeth, larynx, tongue, eyes, ears, hands, and arms can facilitate the attainment of virtuoso skill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.94.37.27 ( talk) 16:11, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
The goofy hypothesis that body types are somehow related to personality is obviously wrong, disproven by hundreds of millions of people alive & dead who disprove all of its claims by their contrary behaviors. The body types are mentioned all over body-building media, health & fitness media, but this quack psychology is so obscure that reading this article in 2016 is the first time I've ever heard of it. The body types deserve their own articles with no reference in them to this article on bogus psychology. This hypothesis is so obscure, and wrong, that it isn't even worthy of additional links to this article. Ace Frahm ( talk) 00:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
The formula for Ponderal Index listed in the article doesn't match the formula used by Heath/Carter for determining ectomorphy. Per the Heath-Carter Anthropometric Somatotype Instruction Manual by Carter, the formula should be height in centimeters divided by the cube root of weight in kilograms. I'd make the change on the article myself, but I don't know anything about how to format properly, etc., especially with images involved. The formulas for converting this value into the actual ectomorphy value are also slightly different in the instruction manual, which is from 2002. Perhaps these formulas have been changed slightly since the original publication in the 1960s? 68.97.4.151 ( talk) 16:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Carleton University supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2012 Q1 term. Further details are available on the course page.
Above message substituted from {{WAP assignment}}
on 15:30, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I checked Reference N.4 but instead of a scientific paper, it redirects me to a Russian NSFW site? It's just me or someone decided to vandalise the page?
--This is one of the reasons I placed the bias tag on the article. 198.214.85.199 ( talk) 20:11, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Aréat, regarding this and this? Since an editor -- Crossroads -- has objected, maybe discuss this on the talk page first? I do not feel strongly on this matter; so I'd rather not be heavily engaged in this discussion. Maybe an RfC will need to be started. I will state now that I don't see that the images are needed in this article.
Please don't ping me. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 23:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
I will state now that I don't see that the images are needed in this article.You can't add an image just because you do like it. And the WP:ONUS is on you for it. Crossroads -talk- 19:16, 19 March 2020 (UTC)