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I am referring to the following sentence: “There has been controversy about the degree of religious tolerance[58] and proselytizing[59][60][61] practiced by Sōka Gakkai members”
1/ the mentioned sources above refer to one example of an SGI teacher accused of proselytizing in a school. There are about 12 million members of SGI. Is this incident sufficient to generelise the one teacher to include the word “members” who can be within the range of 12 million “members”. The editor knew that the official policy of SGI does not approve of described behaviour of that teacher and correctly provided reference to the Charter.
The Q. is: Is it within Wikipedia rules and guidelines to take the example of one person to generalise on the whole group? For example, does Wikipedia see as logically acceptable to say that the Catholic church as a whole is under controversy because one priest was allegedly accused of something? If generalising an event to label the whole organisation is not accepted by Wiki, then the editor should to do something about his editing.
2/ Maybe it is acceptable in Wiki to use blogs as reliable reference, as the editor used here: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html but this blog says that the allegation (concerning that teacher) are not certain: “Not everyone at the school gives much credence to the accusations, including some people who work closely with the principal every day. “We only know what we read about in the papers,” said Ms. Trebach, maintaining that she could not confirm or deny allegations of proselytizing or a hate list”.
3/ Duplicating a doubtful information does not make it reliable. The editor brings another source duplicating the same information: http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=5600. And this source also says that the matter is still under investigation.
I request Wikipedia editors attention to the questions raised. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
@ catflop for you >>> WP:OR 'Wikipedia articles must not contain original research'. The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented"
WP:SYNTH 'Synthesis of published material that advances a position' Policy shortcuts: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.[8] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs) 08:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
1. "Soka members prosylate before their mentors" Let them do what ever they are doing or not doing ? 'Who are we/you to judge that' what benefit does it impart to the readers of wiki. This certainly against WP:NPOV guidelines and comes under WP:SYNTH, 'negetive propaganda !'
2. First I should question need for the subhead "Perception and Criticism of Soka gakkai". Wiki readers who come to this page needn't break their heads over the controversies related to it and the debatable claims to and fro the organisation. "Where is the Neutrality approach here" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs) 13:24, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
The previous discussion, heated as it was, can be transformed into a learning environment we all are in. Both Naveen and Catflap hit on correct points - but both also made mistakes. Now Naveen corrcted his hasty deletion and returned Article to where it was (before the latest storm and complaints to the Admin.) - I see this as a proof of his abiding by Wikipedia rules. However, the focus is on Catflap who shared in the editing and the ensuing situation. Please review the central issue that shared in creating the problem, and which is this imbalanced and incorrect referencing as well as stigmatizing, which run against Wikipedia's nature. The truth will emerge sooner or later, so there is no need for any of us to stuff the article with wrong information whether pro or against SGI. Catflap is requested to answer the following points:
I am referring to the following sentence: “There has been controversy about the degree of religious tolerance[58] and proselytizing[59][60][61] practiced by Sōka Gakkai members”
1/ the mentioned sources above refer to one example of an SGI teacher accused of proselytizing in a school. There are about 12 million members of SGI. Is this incident sufficient to generelise the one teacher to include the word “members” who can be within the range of 12 million “members”. The editor knew that the official policy of SGI does not approve of described behaviour of that teacher and correctly provided reference to the Charter.
The Q. is: Is it within Wikipedia rules and guidelines to take the example of one person to generalise on the whole group? For example, does Wikipedia see as logically acceptable to say that the Catholic church as a whole is under controversy because one priest was allegedly accused of something? If generalising an event to label the whole organisation is not accepted by Wiki, then the editor should to do something about his editing.
2/ Maybe it is acceptable in Wiki to use blogs as reliable reference, as the editor used here: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html but this blog says that the allegation (concerning that teacher) are not certain: “Not everyone at the school gives much credence to the accusations, including some people who work closely with the principal every day. “We only know what we read about in the papers,” said Ms. Trebach, maintaining that she could not confirm or deny allegations of proselytizing or a hate list”.
3/ Duplicating a doubtful information does not make it reliable. The editor brings another source duplicating the same information: http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=5600. And this source also says that the matter is still under investigation.
I suggest that we impartially read the above points. Please consider that this is not just an SGI related issue here, it is a Wikipedia related issue. The mentioned points are about whether Wikipedia rules allow for stigmatizing by generalising of one weak and doubtful example (Such as that Catflap brought: an accusation which could be false) - to spread over a world wide organisation which is offically opposed to what Catflap's is trying to portray. We all make mistakes and learn, and I am inviting Catflap to reconsider his editing. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Please consider following Wikipedia guidelines and remove newspaper references, delete unconfirmed stories. In your words above you say: " some members of SGI are in engaged in proselytising" the word "some" for an organisation of 12 million should refer to at least hundreds of examples, not one disputed and possibly fabricated incident.
You are bringing serious accusations of performance of the whole organisation in matters of legal nature. The cases you mentioned were never judged by any court. Your wording of the sentence to label and sterotype millions of people on account of one disputed example and which is unconfirmed and possibly fabricated - this weakens the article and does not serve Wikipedia. The other example of a dispute between University staff had different explanation against what you mentioned. Soka schools and universities together count perhaps in the hundreds. Over a period of over 30 years of Soka Education, not a single case was reported as violating legal requirement of staff performance. You have no ground to accuse a huge system of schools and universities operating in many countries, based on a weak personal opinion of a teacher who left the system without any legal matter raised.
As this communication will be the ground for my complaint against your editing, I want also to mention that it is unprofessional to use words like
"you may see Satan if you do not admit that you have committed utter sins and that you must repent" followed by " if you do not admit that you have committed utter sins and that you must repent – in his eyes he is just trying to save your soul" - implying here that you are trying to "save SGI" from its sins. You may be on a mission to do so, but this forum, the Wikipedia is not the place to do so, nor even to mention this irrelevant subject.
I would like also to add that your personal statistics of Wikipedia performance: "indeed 80% of the complete Wikipedia content..." is not an argument to justify your peculiar way of editing. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 01:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
John: Thank you for referring me to the mentioned Wikipedia rules. I did read the recommended part, and I think that the disputed sentence (about proselytizing) which was based on the following reference: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html violates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS#Usage_by_other_sources in its guideline: “Never use ….blogs as a source for material about a living person” – while the mentioned source is a blog, with a defaming accusation involving a living person (the teacher).
I also think that using one example as an accusation involving 12 million people is unacceptable generalization – and I would like to ask for a second opinion from Wikipedia Editors of whether using an event involving one person can be unreasonably stretched to include 12 million people referred to as “members”.
The mentioned blog’s article is no more than a story telling of the worst kind. It records 'point of views' only as well as conflicting opinions about an incident (involving a teacher accused of proselytizing).
Apparently, this quality of reference confirms here only one thing: there were accusations based on rumors - which generated two opposing views. Is this quality of source acceptable in Wikipedia performance? The whole event mentioned in that refrence could have been a fabrication, because the article itself mentions that the accusation “follows weeks of rumor”, and weeks of rumor do not change a rumor into a fact. Based on the blog’s wording itself (that the article is based on rumors) - is sufficient to disqualify the reference from any professional adoption. Further, the reference itself states that there are equal contra-claims about the reported rumors:
“Not everyone at the school gives much credence to the accusations, including some people who work closely with the principal every day. They say they have never been offered a card nor have they been approached to join him for prayers.
“We only know what we read about in the papers,” said Ms. Trebach, maintaining that she could not confirm or deny allegations of proselytizing or a hate list.” Here is a case study for Wikipedia: an article destabilising its own credibility citing: No credence, cannot confirm nor deny, we read about this in the newspaper ...Whom to believe then? It could be argued that the tabloid type refrence here reported a fabricated story just to make noise of it and leave a trace of hatred and doubts about SGI. If the accusers themselves could not confirm or deny the accusation so what is the credibility of this reference?
I still don’t think that this reference is fit for Wikipedia, and I would like to pursue the enquiry further. The article itself mentions: “One staff member, who did not want to be named, said it was a small group of teachers and parents who wanted Mr. Scharper removed because they are now unable to exert as much influence as under the previous administration. Rumors that speak against Mr. Scharper are matched by others that say the allegations are part of a vendetta started by a disgruntled staffer at the school”.
Here we have the words: “rumors, did not want to be named, could not confirm or deny, vendetta, no credence... administration influence, allegations...”. If someone did not want to be named then that person could be under threat. The article itself points to the elements of vendetta and manipulation, so why accept this quality of source, given also the above mentioned challenges to its value and aim?
I want to ask Wikipedia Editors for a second opinion about the validity of accepting the mentioned reference. I believe you were unfair, John, in not rejecting that disputed reference - but I believe in your capacity and impartiality and for this reason I am kindly asking whether it is possible to ask another editor for opinion on the matter. I searched in the files but could not find how to challenge a Wikipedia Editor’s opinion. Appreciate an indication on how to apply to Wikipedia regarding the current matter. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:57, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
This input will be helpful for all of us here to cooperate to make our entries neutral. The false potrayal of SGI as having controversies and religious intolerance is disputed by independant scholars, and this entry here should be added to the subject of dispute with Catflap:
"Soka Gakkai offers a model of transnational religious expansion based neither on religious fundamentalism nor on soft New Age-ism. This study is based on fieldwork in Singapore and Washington, D.C., two global capital cities in secular democracies with very different policies on religious freedom and religious harmony.
I argue that members in these cities are able to hold sectarian religious beliefs deeply while still getting along with others, in part by redefining "dialogue" and placing themselves at the center of what it means to be global. Because the Singaporean government discourages proselytizing in order to maintain social harmony, members of Soka Gakkai have adjusted how they make incursions into the public so their activities do not seem coercive.
Similarly, in the United States, because of its past associations with "cult-like" behavior, Soka Gakkai has publicly distanced itself from activities that appear aimed at proselytizing. The softening of the group's public image through its skillful use of media has contributed to its rapid growth in these two global cities, where potential converts are attracted to the group's (noncoercive) "universal values," J.Funicane, Syracuse University http://surface.syr.edu/rel_etd/7/
This testemony is not taken from a tabloid newspaper as Catflap's some refrences are. I again ask for impartiality and cooperation in editing - in particular now regarding Catflap's questionable statement on SGI Proselytlizing. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
When a book mentions about controversies “in postwar Japan”, this may also refer to a period of half a century ago. It is simply unfair to label and stereotype SGI using inapplicable period and environment, without acknowledging the current reality.
I am surprised by your statement above that : “Papers that are published in academic journals are very reliable, but theses and dissertations which are not clearly published in such journals in general cannot be said to even necessarily meet the same standards as tabloid newspapers”.
This questionable statement was in reference to an "Abstract" of a professional research done by a Doctor of Philosophy in Syracuse University, http://surface.syr.edu/rel_etd/7/ (and whose full research was published within the University’s environment). As for online accessibility of this research, only that Abstract is directly available (while full article requires logging in and entering password). Ok, maybe this professional research is not acceptable as a reliable source in Wikipedia, this is one thing - but I find your judgment about a research you did not even read as being of a lower quality standards than tabloid newspaper – this I find unfair.
The mentioned Abstract of that professional research was endorsed and approved by the Department of Religion of Syracuse University, and it appears on their official website. It is possible that Wikipedia does not accept doctoral theses as references unless they are published in journals, however , to state that a research published within a University and mentioned by the University - does not meet standards that tabloid newspaper achieved – this statement poses a question. I wish I could contact the PhD researcher to ask him about his opinion about this view.
I sincerely wish to obtain another opinion from other Wikipedia Editors on whether an academic work of a PhD researcher published within a University environment is viewed by Wikipedia as less reliable or a lower in standards than a tabloid newspaper. In my understanding, Wikipedia welcomes reliable and accountable institutions such as universities as sources and references, and does not accept tabloid newspapers “storytelling” based on rumors, unconfirmed stories and possible defaming accusation. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The section Perception and Criticism required more clarifying citations from reliable sources to the presented views, which I added, starting with the first paragraph about world wide perception, then regarding the criticism about the "benefit", further regarding (one sided) criticism Nichiren Buddhism etc. In one sentence the word "Some" observers was used to mention just one observer, and this was corrected, as the word "some" does not apply to one person.Other wording mistakes corrected.(The sentence regarding Proselytizing is still under dispute) SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 08:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
The following material related to controversy regarding Soka Gakkai is to be found in the above title, which is, like I said earlier, considered to be at least one of the most widely respected and reliable sources out there. The material is also almost certainly also to be found in one or more of the bibliographic items for the article. On that basis, I believe content regarding this material is probably worthy of inclusion. The original article can be found on pages 8508 thrugh 8510 of the book, in volume 12.
from p. 8509
"One of the more difficult problems for Soka Gakkai after the latter half of the 1970s was its relations with the Nichiren Shoshu sect, its parent group. ... Nichiren Shoshu had a body of followers amounting to around fifty thousand. Soka Gakkai, through an affiliated organization, grew in strength under the Nichiren Shoshu umbrella until its membership was more than one hundred times the membership of the parent organization. There had earlier been serious conflicts .. over traditional doctrine and the authority of monks after Soka Gakkai emphasized new styles of lay religiosity and the authority of the Soka Gakkai president. [The groups split from each other in 1991].
Another difficult problem involved strong criticism from political rivals... Relations between the Komei Party and Soka Gakkai provoked controversy over whether this was a violation of the principle of separation between politics and religion....
Soka Gakkai has been characterized by its aggressive propaganda asserting that its teachings alone are correct and criticizing other religions and other Buddhist sects. The Shakubuku Kyoten... clearly demonstrated Soka Gakkai's exclusiveness, and few religious organizations have had a long-term friendly relationship with Soka Gakkai. Since the 1980s, ... more organizations have shown an interest in establishing friendly relations with Soka Gakkai."
I think this source is sufficiently well regarded to merit inclusion of such material in the article. John Carter ( talk) 15:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
What is not included in the article (maybe also in that Encyclopedia) is that in 1970, Ikeda outlined the modernizing line of SGI before 200priests who in utter silence listened to the new vision of the SG abandoning the rhetoric style of Shakubuku, changing this word to another, abandoning emotionalism and exclusiveness, declaring the line of Humanism and modenising the organization.
The Actual Proof speaks of itself: no wonder why SG grew to 100 x bigger than the feudal priesthood. Many non-Buddhist scholars admire the religious revolution and courage of SGI against authoritarianism. SG impact on the Japanese society is highly regarded in cultural circles, for example 65% of its membership constitute women, traditionally regarded as inferior to men, and the emphasis on equality, openness, respect is part of SGI teachings.
Now as for this: “Relations between the Komei Party and Soka Gakkai provoked controversy over whether this was a violation of the principle of separation between politics and religion....” So, what happened next? 50 years of controversy, and then what? Controversy originators had to acknowledge their nonsensical controversy. They have no legal stand to support their views. They can do absolutely nothing except for encouraging rumors and cheap media outlets (for ex. tabloid nonsense). The controversy drum is about opposing the “Right of Citizen to Vote”, and SG members have the right to vote under the constitution to any party of their choice. So what is the problem about? If there is a problem with the Kom/SG then let them go to court.
If Wikipedia editors are bringing this issue then it is fair to differentiate the situation from Western religious political parties, such as the Christian Democrates or Buddhist government in exile – these r serious mixing of religion with politics and this is not the case with SGI.
Repeating disgruntled controversies looks like an implicit contempt against the Legal and Constitutional System of Japan as being weak and incapable of resolving their controversy. Continual refrence to controversies without resolution ever, is useful for some political parties in Japan and their supporters in the West to try to manipulate the mind of people for vote gathering and doubts spreading - whenever an election takes place. But this boring repeatation of controversies will not mislead people who understand who has credibility and who has an empty basket: no valid argument.
The empty basket holders, who have no facts to criticize SGI, search in past and dead matters when SGI was dominated by the fanatical priesthood. And as the Encyclopedia correctly mentioned : “Since the 1980s, ... more organizations have shown an interest in establishing friendly relations with Soka Gakkai” – which abolishes the previous ( I think judgmental) wording of ‘aggressive proselytizing’ and which - in any case - was the priesthood effect, not SGI.
All this is supportive to the truth about SGI, the truth that made hundreds of professors and thinkers world wide - some Noble Prize winners - become interested in this phenomenon of lay believers revolution against feudal, authoritative and exclusive understanding Buddhism, opening their heart to humanity and providing interfaith dialogue. In fact criticizing SGI for its openness and interfaith activities is a proof of the validity of its teachings.
The “some observers” attitude - that which does not understand Nichiren Buddhism and wrongly labels it as intolerant - must face the contra argument of the intolerance and violence of others schools against Nichiren Buddhism, and in every intelligent presentation you hear the words: “on the other hand”. Just ‘one-way-criticism’ is not the way of Wikipedia. Citations and reliable refrences are important to clarify ambiguous statements and statements which do not convey the truth and constitute only POV. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Well in my books I am quite happy to almost any remark Safwan made as it says quite a lot … I mean its now out there to stay … okay I replied with some irony at times, but nevertheless it was worth the response. At any rate I feel Wikipedia is not intended to whitewash issues and it it should not be used to defame those who have different options, neither however is Wikipedia intended to take sides. Branding those who have different views as originating from tabloids is not on just as it is as a matter of fact basically intolerable to patronise those who may have not come to see “the light”. Religious matters are by nature controversial. I could mention a range of Safwan's comments, but to be honest I do want to get anyone blocked, I do not want to engage in an edit war. Being neutral is a tedious task even more so when it means to disregard ones own beliefs for a while. I at times too have to take a step back from my beliefs and try to understand what an outsider would make of it. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
John: I strongly object to your statemnt (2 sections above) that the 3 points I mentioned earlier in that section were : " what some might describe as quibbling over phrasing on the talk page" - if that was what you meant by your comment. The problem is not about "quibbling over phrasing", but about using Wikipedia by some editors to promote rumors, hatred, defaming millions of decent people - such as in this false and aggressive statement: When the individual who tells of his/her negative experiences of SGI, some do not hesitate to call that individual a traitor or someone out to destroy the org. having a negative life condition. Is can got as far as questioning the persons integrity”.
You have indicated that a Talk page is not about POVs, but that it is about about rational, civil and referenced matters. How reasonable is the essence of a statement that: ' someone heared that someone else heard that if someone critcises SGI then a person's integrity is questioned?' Statements portraying SGI in an utterly false picture on Wikipedia page do not contribute to Wikipedia. Refrencing such lies by rumor based tabloids, or internet chat rooms, is a question which will be rasied. Such an attitude of unrestrained tendency to poison the well- if made in a social or legally-responsible forum - would have brought the matter before the court. This is a serious matter. You said once that Wikipedia is evolving, and I respect this broadminded view, which also may develop in making Wikipedia accountable before the court if it was used to incite hatred between people and defamation. Wikipedia should not open its pages to utter lies, and I want to know whether there is any moral instrument or Wikipedia rule that may be used to prevent or discipline an editor who intently uses articles or talk page - as a vehicle for spreading rumors, unconfirmed stories, lies and sterotyping others. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Now just wait a minute --- okay gave my opinion on my family mebers belief, which to MY mind is worrying but where did I spread rumors or lies??? -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)-- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I added a new section about the major shared concepts between SGI teachings and other schools - as well as the main differences distinguishing the doctrinal interpretations of schools as far as information is available. I think the location of this important section comes handy after the section on main SGI Practice. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 12:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Well when posting insults of the lowest kind such as this one. Quote: Hey @catflop I know you are a pimp of Nikken. Don't push your NST ideology and motives here. Get the f*ck out of here you mtf !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.164.101.227 (talk) 15:43, 3 July 2012 (UTC) It won't be of much help at all … it indeed reveals some people's true intentions … who ever that IP-address in Bangalore belongs to. Please notice it has been reported and archived in the history of this article. Since the above user at least seemed to have spoken in defence of SGI I should however let that user know that I am not a member of NST, but its a prime example of so called religious tolerance practised by adherents of a certain so called religious group.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
First of all let's keep the discussion on how to improve the article, not attack one another. It needs improving. I do see encouraging signs of better co-operation starting to happen.
For a look at an opinion about how religious topics generally should be treated I recommend this. It's an essay, not policy or guideline, but seems to be me to contain much good advice, and could help those with strong personal beliefs understand what is required for an encyclopedia entry.
I also suggest spending some time looking the Religion and Buddhism projects linked in the header of this page, and specifically the lists of recognized content therein. That should help give guidance for what is necessary for a good or featured article.
Try and remember the reader who is likely to be a curious layman. Neutral and informative is better than polemic or technical.
Finally there are interesting factual elements that are not in the article at all (organisation into divisions, regions and sections for instance). I can also imagine a section that discusses the organisation country by country with number of members, regional centres, etc. For the UK for instance there is good hard information available at the charities commission website.
Mcewan ( talk) 08:45, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I have recently done some work to make the 14 pages of archive conform to the usual convention for talk archives - (they had become orphaned after the article was moved to correct the spelling). As a result they can be accessed and searched from the header on this page. Another consequence is that it would now to be possible to automate future archiving - I have not done this because we should have consensus first. Any thoughts? I think keeping a year's worth of live discussion would be about right. See User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo for details. Mcewan ( talk) 13:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
One of the least understood matters about SGI is the Mentor Disciple Relationship. The word "Master" is no more used - after disassociation with the priesthood - and it will be a new knowledge to many readers to know that SGI does not have one Mentor only, but a group of individuals and an original mentor of all humanity, The Buddha, or the life of Buddha, as literature explain. Regards. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I removed a passage saying that the Bodhisattva vow in a stanza in Ch 16 of the Lotus Sutra say's "...to make all persons equal to me..." This isn't a Bodhisattva vow, it was the Buddha's original vow since he attained Buddhahood in the remote/eternal past. - Steve ( talk) 16:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually "to make all persons equal to me without the slightest distinction" is from Chapter 2 of the LS", not Chapter 16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.79.160 ( talk) 00:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
As is required by Wikipedia rules, citation from independant sources are necessary and should be included in the text of articles. I have added a section : "After the Split" - which includes research artcles and books of university scholars after the Excommunication, and finally the impact of the split on SGI (regarding the excommunication as a spiritual independance). SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 08:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
You are criticising Daniel Metraux because he expressed a view which you do not like. This person is non-Buddhist and is a respected university researcher. His opinion is not different from B. Wilson and K. Dobberlaere, Richard Seager, prof. Bumann or also Jane Hurst and many others .....who studied the conflict between SGI and N.Shoshu. All of these researchers are authors of articles and books which - if biased - would affect their own professional responsibilities, their credibility and integrety and also the merit of their universities. All of them are neutral, impartial and non-Buddhist.
I don't understand your objection to the fact that the excommunication is celebrated in SGI as liberation, this IS a fact, and if the NST feels the same (liberated) then fine, how great, let all people celebrate liberation.
Wikipedia is about recording impartial facts. If you find any part of article which contradicts facts or is lacking refrence then you have the right to challenge or change it - provided you justify your editing by a proof. I will do this and I am challenging now the section about the Hokkeko, which has nothing to do with SGI. Why to insert that section? To say that Hokkeko gained some members out of the split - this is an acknowledgement of Hokkeko's aim to spread authority over some SGI members (many of whom left Hokkeko later). And what has the article to do with whatever rule of N Shoshu in 1997? And this nonsensical description that SGI members "MOST MISTAKENLY" believe that... what a nonsense! Is this within Wikipedia rules to insert irrelevant advertisment for Nichiren Shoshu / Hokkeko and their rules in 1997 and describe SGI members as having mistaken belief about whatever.....Please bring proofs of why inserting this section is necessary - also: the proof that SGI members are even interested in "priesthood rules" and that they are mistaken in what ever.
Finally, you are asking for a solution to this unending war between the 2 sides. Nichiren Daishonin said it is the Actual Proof that decides. It is the Actual Proof of working for self-development, KosenRufu & humanity is the solution. Attaining Buddhahood and delivering the proof of behaviour is the solution. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 14:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Nichijun Fujimoto, Nichiren Shoshu Head Temple's chief administrator, 12 Jan.1991 stated: "To talk about the priesthood and laity with a sense of equality are expressions of great conceit. In fact, they correspond to the five cardinal sins…” - what would an impartial academic sense in this but utter arrogance and disdain for ordinary people? However, if you feel strong about correcting other academics, then I do not think that Wikipedia is the best place for publishing your findings. With honest respect to your person and Buddha nature, I must say that you are oblivious of how emotional your views are, and how your statements about the split are based on who was right (the Priesthood, of course) and who was wrong.
SGI members are very clear about rejecting the domination of the Priesthood and about their spiritual freedom, and if not they would not continue in the gakkai, as is the case with some unsure individual. We live in a time of freedom. Each person is free to join whatever he/she sees inspiring. Some do not have any inspiration and sit on the fence arguing about the past. One GREAT results of the spiritual independance of SGI is the change in the system of prayers, from a complicated system invented by the Priesthood (to suit their temples locations, resulting in 5 + 3 recitation of the same Sutra text) into a modern, practical form of one recitation as recommended by Nichiren. This would have been impossible under the Priesthood's "Absolute Obedience" commands and conservative spirit. No where in the Gosho Nichiren recommended what the NST does in prayers. I practiced under the Priesthood for motre than 7 years, and I know how incorrect it was to do the Gongyo the Priesthood way, because - having just 20 min time in the morning for prayer - the time was consumed by 5 lengthy repetation of the text and no time for chanting was left (while chanting time should be longer than recitation time). The GREAT comfort and strong life force experienced by SGI Gongyo is a precious result of the Spiritual Independance. It was the MEMBERS who demanded the change in the form of prayers, and SGI HQ agreed. In itself this is a significant indication for independant academics who see the revolution of lay believers setting the form of prayers rather than accepting silently an authoritative form with Absolute Obedience. So no wonder impartial views support SGI.
I find this exchange meaningful. Please look at the future rather than digging the dead past, and who took divorce "because of the split" etc... The future is more important than the past and the Gohonzon has the power to transform any suffering, starting from our own. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
All of them [who are positive about the SGI] are neutral and unbiased but those who are negative about the SGI are not? Very interesting point of view you have. Some such as Levi McClaughlin have been both negative and positive about the SGI...See Dominating Tradition: Soka Gakkai and the Creation of History. Another article you might find interesting is: Can Scholars Be Deceived? Empirical Evidence from Social Psychology and History by Steve K. D. Eichel, Ph.D. Are you saying that those sociologists like Metreaux and Wilson haven't enriched themselves by writing positively about the Soka Gakkai and selling their books in SGI community centers? [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.79.160 ( talk) 01:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Without any explanation, someone deleted a section referring to the causes of the split. Avoiding mention of the causes of the conflict - weakens the value and the correctness of the article . For this reason I returened the section about the reasons for the Split.
The following text (in italics) had no reason to be in the article because of its unprofessional, ambiguous and incorrect nature: "The relationship between Sōka Gakkai and the priesthood of Nichiren Shōshū has been historically one of give and take." This view is like a story telling with no professional reasoning nor references. It is a POV. Wikipedia artcles have no space for imaginary points of view. And "Give and Take" what?:" While Nichiren Shōshū profited from a substantial growth of adherents and hence income by donations" - , Sōka Gakkai on the other side profited form the support of an established school of Japanese Buddhism" Who said this? Where is it mentioned? This text is giving the false information about the conflict and speaks about financial gain of the priesthood rather than the doctrinal causes of the split. And also: "the issuing of religious objects of worship, the so called Gohonzon' - this sentence is incorrect as Gohonzons were issued only by the Head Temple until the Split. "Ongoing tensions between the two sides were mostly based on authority and doctrine" If so then what are these doctrinal causes? Why hiding them? The causes of conflict should be mentioned in a short concise manner which I returned back to the article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 08:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Some readers might be interested in this 63 page analysis of the split by a former Nichiren Shoshu priest: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/wwNy42T1x_s Enjoy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.79.160 ( talk) 01:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Archives of this page have now been created in such a way as to be accessible and searchable from the header on this page. There is also a partial index of specific discussions (that used to appear here) at Talk:Sōka Gakkai/Archive Index. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcewan ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
The SGI is a world wide Buddhist movement based on the teachings of Nichiren. This is the correct and impartial description of the SG or SGI. To call the SGInternaltional a 'New Japanese Religion" is a result of ignorance. SG did not introduce any "new religion" and its teachings are based on the Lotus Sutra, humanistic and world wide, International - nothing Japanese related. The classification of religions based on ethnic origin of the founder or location of temples/members is questionable. Anyone who classifies Christianity as Palestinian, or the Catholic order as an "Italian religion" exposes incorrect grounds of classification. To say that SGI is "regarded" by "someone's opinion" as a new "japanese religion" is a sentence violating Wikipedia rules, it is a POV. There are hundreds of scholars world wide who regard SG as a humanistic organisation for peace based on Nichiren Buddhism and their view should also be included. Shall we include these as well at the starting definition to give a balanced perspective? I think this is unnecessary. To exclude the mess of clashing POVs, I deleted the controdictory sentence on how SG is "regarded". SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:39, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
No indeed. SGI is based on the teachings of the Three Presidents of the Soka Gakkai, some of the teachings of Nichikan with which the mentor agrees and some of the teachings of Nichiren which the mentor agrees. To be considered a Buddhist movement based on the teachings of Nichiren, one must have the same faith and practice as Nichiren. Interfaith based on the Lotus Sutra, for example, is a teaching of Ikeda not Nichiren. More correctly, SGI is based on the teachings of Ikeda, not Nichiren. [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.73.71 ( talk) 03:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I think that the article could benefit from the addition of an image of the Gohonzon as issued by SGI. Does anyone have one? Mcewan ( talk) 22:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree for adherents of SGI or Nichiren Shoshu a photographic image of the Gohonzon is prohibited. This however is different in other schools of Nichiren Buddhism. In the article of Nichiren Shu I blieve there is a link to a Nichiren Gohonzon (copy) that is issued to its adherents. In this scholl of Nichiren Buddhims there is nothing sacriligious about taking a picture of a Gohonzon.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
There is one option that might be a bit strange, but might work. The SGI Gohonzon isn't the only one. I'm not sure how remarkably different the SGI Gohonzon specifically is, but if it isn't that different we could add an image of a "generic" Gohonzon with a caption saying that the picture is of a Gohonzon, but not specifically an SGI one, indicating that they prefer theirs to not be photographed or published. The key question would be, I guess, how similar the different gohonzons are. John Carter ( talk) 23:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, it could be considered debatable if the deletion of the dedication was unimportant or not in the end there is an intention behind any dedication. SGI was in desperate need for a Gohonzon always asked myself why they did not ask one of the priests that sided with SGI to inscribe one or create an SGI-Version. At any rate this no subject here, yet. As mentioned above there is no image of a Nichikan Gohonzon available in Commons. Including one in the Gohonzon article seems fair enough though. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 14:27, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry Safwan but you do not represent the view of the Soka Gakkai, Toda, nor your mentor:
“Soka Spirit,” has a “featured article of the month” by Dave Baldschun (SGIUSA Study Dept) entitled: "Are All Gohonzons the same?” In that article, Baldschun arrogantly asserts,
“[a]t a time when copies of Gohonzon, some inscribed in Nichiren Daishonin’s own hand, are available over the counter or from the Internet, these examples offer a valuable lesson. Even though a Gohonzon is a Gohonzon, the source is important. We should be aware of those offering Gohonzon and teachings under the guise of Nichiren Buddhism but who are, in fact, propagating views that distort Daishonin’s teachings. In Letter to the Lay Priest Ichinosawa, the Daishonin states, If [sic!] the source is muddy, the stream will not flow clear...”
In an April 30th 2001 memo, “Distribution of Gohonzons” the SGI teaches that distribution of Gohonzon by any means outside of SGI (for example, via the internet, the Nichiren Shu, or the Kempon Hokke) is detrimental to the true spirit of Nichiren’s teachings only propagated within the SGI. Dave Baldshun, drunk with the arrogance of SGI, asserts that receiving, revering, or chanting to such a Gohonzon “would only create confusion and disharmony within SGI’s community of believers and thus may serve to undermine one’s own faith and that of other’s.” He then reafirms the policy of “the conferral of Gohonzon only as within the SGI, "the correct body of believers upholding the Daishonin’s teaching today. We do not support or condone the distribution, receipt, or reproduction of any Gohonzon in any other manner."
Toda teaches:
"We, ourselves, cannot produce the Gohonzon. Since it's the enlightened entity of Nichiren Daishonin, no one has the authority other than the successive high priests who have been the sole heirs to the heritage of the True Law. We take no part in this. Therefore, the objects of worship inscribed by those in the Butsuryu and Minobu factions [of the Nichiren sect] are absolutely powerless. They are worthless because they are fake. In fact, they contain the power of evil spirits. That is why they are dangerous." Former SGI president, Josei Toda, Daibyaku Renge, 98, p. 98.
Ikeda teaches:
"Members of the Minobu school of the Nichiren sect chant daimoku. They have the Gosho Their recitation of the sutra also includes the Hoben and Juryo chapters. And, in the Shoshinkai, which consists of ex-priests of Nichiren Shoshu , and the portions of the sutra they recite and the daimoku that they chant are identical to the practice we observe. Though their religion may seem the same as ours, they lack the single, unbroken heritage of the law recieved directly from Nichiren Daishonin. If one's faith is not based on this line of inheritance, it is worthless to embrace any Gohonzon, for no benefit will be forthcoming. That is to say, "Without the lifeblood of faith, it would be useless to embrace the Lotus Sutra." " Daisaku Ikeda, Buddhism in Action, vol 3, p 254
Is it that I know more about what the SGI actually teaches than you or are you trying to deceive the people? [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.73.71 ( talk) 03:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
First of all Safwan, you should admonish yourself:
"Quarrels about whose Gohonzon is “better” or “more authentic” are products of various temples fighting for own prestige. SGI was unable to confer Gohonzon on its members until 1993 when the chief priest of Joen-Ji temple in Tochigi prefecture, Rev. Sendo Narita conferred on SGI a woodblock Gohonzon originally inscribed by High Priest Nichikan Shonin. SGI Gohonzon is based on the conferred Nichikan Gohonzon and is the most widespread in the world, however, its spiritual value does not derive from who or where it was inscribed but from its owner’s dedication for enlightenment of self and others (who are interconnected with one's own life)." --Safwan
But I wouldn't expect anything else from you Safwan because you lack a clear mirror. [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.73.71 ( talk) 06:19, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I am a leader in the Soka Gakkai and I think you should take down the image of the Gohonzon. This is purely due to an issue of respect for it and for yourself. As it represents the most profound state of life and indeed your life to put it on the internet is disrespectful to it and to yourself, and is probably a bad cause for your life too. It may also encourage people to chant to it online rather than get one for themselves, and this would be a very poor substitute and is not recommended. I am not here in an official capacity from the Soka Gakkai but just as a member, but the official Soka Gakkai position is not to allow photos of the Gohonzon at all, and as this is an article about the Soka Gakkai I would ask that you please respect our wishes and remove the image as soon as possible. Thanks. -- Simon Y--30/11/12--
I am really not sure why you have taken such offence to my comment. I am a leader in the SGI (Soka team leader for SE London) and a member, but I am not here in any official capacity, and am acting on my own, just as a concerned member. It is not an issue of copyright at all, but a religious one, and one of respect. It is primarily out concern for you that I wrote that as you are in essence disrespecting your own life by placing the image of the Gohonzon there. I cannot see the benefit that would be gained from having an image of the Gohonzon there that you know is going to offend members of the SGI. I would ask again that you please take it down but I am happy to have a chat with you about it if you are unclear on the reasons for my objection. ---Simon YT--5/12/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.111.187.210 ( talk) 15:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I have to say absolutely that what I said was in no way meant as a threat in any way and if I have caused any offence then I apologise, that was not my intent. I merely meant that as the Gohonzon ultimately represents your own life to treat it with disrespect is the same as disrespecting yourself, which is not good. I know that you are not SGI members and that wikipedia is a secular domain and you may not understand the significance of the Gohonzon. I know you just want to provide information and education to people and that is admirable, but I feel that the image will upset some people as it has upset me, and there is no need for that as an accurate description would be more than sufficient. I will leave the discussion there and wish you nothing but the best. ----Simon YT----6/12/12-----
I previously added section "Similarities and Differences" between SGI concepts and other schools of Nichiren Buddhism. To support the information with references I had to bring citations from SGI literature. The section has 14 references (from [41] to [55]) and all except one are SGI based; doesn't look too balanced. This may have triggered the tag of "Advertisment" put at the beginning of the page - although the information provided was factual, however, there was no 'third party' verification.
I suggest here to perhaps move this section on Similarities and Differences from Soka Gakkai page to Nichiren Buddhism page. For example: the concept of Buddha, Three Trasures...etc... can be then viewed from different views of various schools, (so the sources would not be related just to SGI). This may shorten the article on SGI but enrich the article on Nichiren Buddhism and open the way for wider cooperation between editors regardless of affiliation. Appreciate your opinions. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:11, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Noticing repeated questioning and tension about Gohonzon image in SGI article, I would like to offer the following perspective dealing with Gohonzon on the Internet in general, aiming also for stabilizing the frequent deletion - uploading on this Wikipage:
First it is important for editors to know the copyright and the history of 'ownership issue': The Gohoznon is the Buddha’s gift to all humanity, but in the past, the mandala was regarded as a private property of Priesthood. This was challenged by SGI, who - after the split - was offered permission by supportive priests to reprint copies of Nichikan based Gohonzon.
Copyright issue has legal and also religious dimensions: Only Gohonzon delivered through the 'Community of Believers' is one which is conferred in accordance to the Three Treasures of Buddhism (The Buddha, The Law and the Samgha). Therefore individually obtaining Gohonzon from the internet expresses misunderstanding of one’s Buddhist practice, and expresses an attitude of making light of the Three Treasures of Buddhism, disregarding the Community of Believers. The Gohonzon is found in faith only and not in how the mandala looks like, for example, a copied $ 100 note may look exactly the same as a real $ 100, still it will have no credibility or benefit. Permission of the source of image is very important.
Now why there is a bit of tension here regarding maiking photo of the Gohonzon?
Because the Gohonzon is the Object of Devotion, it should not be treated like one treats any other usual household item - and it is traditionally accepted that making photos of Gohonzon reveals a careless or casual treatment of the mandala (which is , of course, not beneficial). However, even if a photo was made, like in some SGI celebrations or group gatherings - and the Gohonzon is visible at the background of the photo - then it is the intention behind making that photo which count, as Nichiren says: “it is the heart that is important” WND1 p. 1000
I would not personally publish an image of the Gohonzon and- most importantly - because it belongs to the Community of Believers, which delivered it in the first place. Nevertheless, one can treat the image published on Wikipedia page with openmindedness, and with good faith or positive outlook about the intention - and also with awareness about the environment of this public domain medium. It is important to accept the fact that the image of the Gohonzon is already published on the internet on other websites (there are about 120 Nichiren Mandala Gohonzon on the internet - and here now on Wikipedia. Uploaded image does not violate Wikipedia’s guidelines and should be accepted as that, however, there are issues with copyright, and with the wrong descriptions tagged to the image - and this will be questioned sometimes in the future, no hurries. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello, this is a partial re-post that I made in another section as perhaps this is a more appropriate one. I am a leader in the Soka Gakkai and member and I think you should take down the image of the Gohonzon. This is purely due to an issue of respect for it and for yourself. As it represents the most profound state of life and indeed your life, to put it on the internet is disrespectful to it and to yourself, and is probably a bad cause for your life too. It may also encourage people to chant to it online rather than get one for themselves, and this would be a very poor substitute and is not recommended. I am not here in an official capacity from the Soka Gakkai but just as a member, but the official Soka Gakkai position is not to allow photos of the Gohonzon at all, and as this is an article about the Soka Gakkai I would ask that you please respect our wishes and remove the image as soon as possible. Also, this is not an issue of copyright at all but a religious one, and one of resect for the members of the SGI and for your own lives. It does not matter if the image is available in other places on the internet, it is the fact that you have chosen to put it up, and also have the power to take it down that creates a cause for your life. If you would like to understand more about the religious reasons for not having an image of the Gohonzon on this site then I would be happy to chat with you. Please understand that my only concern is for you and for the respect of the Gohonzon. Thanks. ---- Simon Y-----5/12/12----
I have to say absolutely that what I said was in no way meant as a threat in any way and if I have caused any offence then I apologise, that was not my intent. I merely meant that as the Gohonzon ultimately represents your own life to treat it with disrespect is the same as disrespecting yourself, which is not good. I know that you are not SGI members and that wikipedia is a secular domain and you may not understand the significance of the Gohonzon. I know you just want to provide information and education to people and that is admirable, but I feel that the image will upset some people as it has upset me, and there is no need for that as an accurate description would be more than sufficient. I will leave the discussion there and wish you nothing but the best. ----Simon YT----6/12/12-----
I will make just one final post on the matter, I think that if people are taking down images of the Gohonzon it is probably for the reason that they are upset by the images on the internet, and I think to call that 'attacks' or 'vandalism' is a little extreme. ----Simon YT---24/12/12----
Simon, let's not get upset by anything. It is reason and the actual proof to be aware of our social circumstances and understand the views of others. I think a mature perspective is the most beneficial for all. Have a Happy New Year all readers. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
For anyone who is offended by the image, here are brief instructions on how to configure Wikipedia so that it is not displayed to you (providing you have an account).
Note that these instructions come from a help page that is much more comprehensive.
body a[href="/info/en/?search=File:SGI_Gohonzon.jpg"] {display: none;}
Once you have refreshed your browser's cache, you should see a caption instead of the image.
Mcewan ( talk) 14:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
This article mostly just lists things that people can find for free on the SGI website. If you look at the article on Quakers for example, it follows vaguely the same layout as this one, but theology only takes up about 20% of the article. Also, obviously that article relies on tons of third party sources. This article can easily do the same and I will use my Wikipedia-supplied Questia account to start working on that now. Shii (tock) 23:12, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Law is a very tricky thing. In the case you mentioned the court had to decide if there was a case for unfair dismissal. The court had not to rule if SGI was practicing proselytising or if SGI was/is religiously tolerant or not. So when saying that a case was dismissed is one thing to say the testimonies are incorrect is another - which is what you are trying to imply. One could also question SGI’s commitment to freedom of speech. The most famous case in the West was the one against Ms Jones – to say it right away she lost her case too, but why did she loose it? Ms Jones was an employee of SGI, after she left SGI she spoke publicly about ghostwriting for Mr. Ikeda and of other SGI internal issues. What it has in common with the case mentioned above was that both are cases of labour law. Ms Jones was silenced not because of what she said was true or not but because by speaking out in public she was violating the terms of her contract with SGI. Such contracts are known to protect the industry form industrial espionage, but to my knowledge uncommon to religious entities. Why SGI feels the need to do that is up to them. To my knowledge no court has ever said that SGI is or is not proselytising nor that it is or is not religiously intolerant. In both cases the courts decisions were based on the law of labour and law of contract. Finally a courts ruling can not discard the fact that controversies exist. Catflap08 ( talk) 09:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh no in contrast I simply underlined what the cases were about – labour law and unfair dismissal. No court ever had to decide if the experience of ex Soka University staff were true or not but if there was enough for unfair dismissal. In a democracy loosing a case does not make the one who lost liar. Catflap08 ( talk) 06:30, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
This talk Page is not about giving a controversial justification for inserting in a WP article misleading information. Again, this is an evidence that there is no safety mechanism in WP to deal with such matters and Richard Stallman's opionion on WP failure to address such issues is quiet clear. Referring to a Court case which was dismissed - and could have been based on false claims and sheer lies - but was inserted in WP article as if the claims were genuine - this will leave a mark on the quality of WP articles.
The COURT had not to decide if THAT interview or report was true or not this was case of labour law/law of contract. The interview was NOT the the object of the dispute. The report was about the ongoings at the named university. To assume that because they lost their case their testimonials or experiences (a term you should be familiar with) are rumours or lies (as you seem to imply) is an assumption and you thereby are trying to question their intergrity. Any reader with an average intelligence will realise that this is, was, and never wanted to be, anything else than a newspaper article. You do not seem to realise that what you are doing is trying to preselect what sort of information should be made available and which not. In the history of this talk section one can easily see that your are continuously trying to label any critical information lies and rumours - this is something you have done yourself. Other editors have warned you about that. In other words you place your judgement above anyone else's judgement. This is a a form of censorship and manipulation of the article. Catflap08 ( talk) 06:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
You do not seem to get it. Catflap08 ( talk) 06:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Malcolmxl5 ( talk) 22:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Sōka Gakkai → Soka Gakkai – - per WP:JATITLE honor the current anglicization used officially by that party. The official website of this organization uses "Soka Gakkai" without macron. Book sources also favour "Soka Gakkai" over "Sōka Gakkai". --Relisted Tyrol5 [Talk] 02:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC) JoshuSasori ( talk) 00:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I am referring to the following sentence: “There has been controversy about the degree of religious tolerance[58] and proselytizing[59][60][61] practiced by Sōka Gakkai members”
1/ the mentioned sources above refer to one example of an SGI teacher accused of proselytizing in a school. There are about 12 million members of SGI. Is this incident sufficient to generelise the one teacher to include the word “members” who can be within the range of 12 million “members”. The editor knew that the official policy of SGI does not approve of described behaviour of that teacher and correctly provided reference to the Charter.
The Q. is: Is it within Wikipedia rules and guidelines to take the example of one person to generalise on the whole group? For example, does Wikipedia see as logically acceptable to say that the Catholic church as a whole is under controversy because one priest was allegedly accused of something? If generalising an event to label the whole organisation is not accepted by Wiki, then the editor should to do something about his editing.
2/ Maybe it is acceptable in Wiki to use blogs as reliable reference, as the editor used here: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html but this blog says that the allegation (concerning that teacher) are not certain: “Not everyone at the school gives much credence to the accusations, including some people who work closely with the principal every day. “We only know what we read about in the papers,” said Ms. Trebach, maintaining that she could not confirm or deny allegations of proselytizing or a hate list”.
3/ Duplicating a doubtful information does not make it reliable. The editor brings another source duplicating the same information: http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=5600. And this source also says that the matter is still under investigation.
I request Wikipedia editors attention to the questions raised. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
@ catflop for you >>> WP:OR 'Wikipedia articles must not contain original research'. The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented"
WP:SYNTH 'Synthesis of published material that advances a position' Policy shortcuts: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.[8] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs) 08:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
1. "Soka members prosylate before their mentors" Let them do what ever they are doing or not doing ? 'Who are we/you to judge that' what benefit does it impart to the readers of wiki. This certainly against WP:NPOV guidelines and comes under WP:SYNTH, 'negetive propaganda !'
2. First I should question need for the subhead "Perception and Criticism of Soka gakkai". Wiki readers who come to this page needn't break their heads over the controversies related to it and the debatable claims to and fro the organisation. "Where is the Neutrality approach here" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs) 13:24, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
The previous discussion, heated as it was, can be transformed into a learning environment we all are in. Both Naveen and Catflap hit on correct points - but both also made mistakes. Now Naveen corrcted his hasty deletion and returned Article to where it was (before the latest storm and complaints to the Admin.) - I see this as a proof of his abiding by Wikipedia rules. However, the focus is on Catflap who shared in the editing and the ensuing situation. Please review the central issue that shared in creating the problem, and which is this imbalanced and incorrect referencing as well as stigmatizing, which run against Wikipedia's nature. The truth will emerge sooner or later, so there is no need for any of us to stuff the article with wrong information whether pro or against SGI. Catflap is requested to answer the following points:
I am referring to the following sentence: “There has been controversy about the degree of religious tolerance[58] and proselytizing[59][60][61] practiced by Sōka Gakkai members”
1/ the mentioned sources above refer to one example of an SGI teacher accused of proselytizing in a school. There are about 12 million members of SGI. Is this incident sufficient to generelise the one teacher to include the word “members” who can be within the range of 12 million “members”. The editor knew that the official policy of SGI does not approve of described behaviour of that teacher and correctly provided reference to the Charter.
The Q. is: Is it within Wikipedia rules and guidelines to take the example of one person to generalise on the whole group? For example, does Wikipedia see as logically acceptable to say that the Catholic church as a whole is under controversy because one priest was allegedly accused of something? If generalising an event to label the whole organisation is not accepted by Wiki, then the editor should to do something about his editing.
2/ Maybe it is acceptable in Wiki to use blogs as reliable reference, as the editor used here: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html but this blog says that the allegation (concerning that teacher) are not certain: “Not everyone at the school gives much credence to the accusations, including some people who work closely with the principal every day. “We only know what we read about in the papers,” said Ms. Trebach, maintaining that she could not confirm or deny allegations of proselytizing or a hate list”.
3/ Duplicating a doubtful information does not make it reliable. The editor brings another source duplicating the same information: http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=5600. And this source also says that the matter is still under investigation.
I suggest that we impartially read the above points. Please consider that this is not just an SGI related issue here, it is a Wikipedia related issue. The mentioned points are about whether Wikipedia rules allow for stigmatizing by generalising of one weak and doubtful example (Such as that Catflap brought: an accusation which could be false) - to spread over a world wide organisation which is offically opposed to what Catflap's is trying to portray. We all make mistakes and learn, and I am inviting Catflap to reconsider his editing. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Please consider following Wikipedia guidelines and remove newspaper references, delete unconfirmed stories. In your words above you say: " some members of SGI are in engaged in proselytising" the word "some" for an organisation of 12 million should refer to at least hundreds of examples, not one disputed and possibly fabricated incident.
You are bringing serious accusations of performance of the whole organisation in matters of legal nature. The cases you mentioned were never judged by any court. Your wording of the sentence to label and sterotype millions of people on account of one disputed example and which is unconfirmed and possibly fabricated - this weakens the article and does not serve Wikipedia. The other example of a dispute between University staff had different explanation against what you mentioned. Soka schools and universities together count perhaps in the hundreds. Over a period of over 30 years of Soka Education, not a single case was reported as violating legal requirement of staff performance. You have no ground to accuse a huge system of schools and universities operating in many countries, based on a weak personal opinion of a teacher who left the system without any legal matter raised.
As this communication will be the ground for my complaint against your editing, I want also to mention that it is unprofessional to use words like
"you may see Satan if you do not admit that you have committed utter sins and that you must repent" followed by " if you do not admit that you have committed utter sins and that you must repent – in his eyes he is just trying to save your soul" - implying here that you are trying to "save SGI" from its sins. You may be on a mission to do so, but this forum, the Wikipedia is not the place to do so, nor even to mention this irrelevant subject.
I would like also to add that your personal statistics of Wikipedia performance: "indeed 80% of the complete Wikipedia content..." is not an argument to justify your peculiar way of editing. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 01:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
John: Thank you for referring me to the mentioned Wikipedia rules. I did read the recommended part, and I think that the disputed sentence (about proselytizing) which was based on the following reference: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html violates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS#Usage_by_other_sources in its guideline: “Never use ….blogs as a source for material about a living person” – while the mentioned source is a blog, with a defaming accusation involving a living person (the teacher).
I also think that using one example as an accusation involving 12 million people is unacceptable generalization – and I would like to ask for a second opinion from Wikipedia Editors of whether using an event involving one person can be unreasonably stretched to include 12 million people referred to as “members”.
The mentioned blog’s article is no more than a story telling of the worst kind. It records 'point of views' only as well as conflicting opinions about an incident (involving a teacher accused of proselytizing).
Apparently, this quality of reference confirms here only one thing: there were accusations based on rumors - which generated two opposing views. Is this quality of source acceptable in Wikipedia performance? The whole event mentioned in that refrence could have been a fabrication, because the article itself mentions that the accusation “follows weeks of rumor”, and weeks of rumor do not change a rumor into a fact. Based on the blog’s wording itself (that the article is based on rumors) - is sufficient to disqualify the reference from any professional adoption. Further, the reference itself states that there are equal contra-claims about the reported rumors:
“Not everyone at the school gives much credence to the accusations, including some people who work closely with the principal every day. They say they have never been offered a card nor have they been approached to join him for prayers.
“We only know what we read about in the papers,” said Ms. Trebach, maintaining that she could not confirm or deny allegations of proselytizing or a hate list.” Here is a case study for Wikipedia: an article destabilising its own credibility citing: No credence, cannot confirm nor deny, we read about this in the newspaper ...Whom to believe then? It could be argued that the tabloid type refrence here reported a fabricated story just to make noise of it and leave a trace of hatred and doubts about SGI. If the accusers themselves could not confirm or deny the accusation so what is the credibility of this reference?
I still don’t think that this reference is fit for Wikipedia, and I would like to pursue the enquiry further. The article itself mentions: “One staff member, who did not want to be named, said it was a small group of teachers and parents who wanted Mr. Scharper removed because they are now unable to exert as much influence as under the previous administration. Rumors that speak against Mr. Scharper are matched by others that say the allegations are part of a vendetta started by a disgruntled staffer at the school”.
Here we have the words: “rumors, did not want to be named, could not confirm or deny, vendetta, no credence... administration influence, allegations...”. If someone did not want to be named then that person could be under threat. The article itself points to the elements of vendetta and manipulation, so why accept this quality of source, given also the above mentioned challenges to its value and aim?
I want to ask Wikipedia Editors for a second opinion about the validity of accepting the mentioned reference. I believe you were unfair, John, in not rejecting that disputed reference - but I believe in your capacity and impartiality and for this reason I am kindly asking whether it is possible to ask another editor for opinion on the matter. I searched in the files but could not find how to challenge a Wikipedia Editor’s opinion. Appreciate an indication on how to apply to Wikipedia regarding the current matter. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:57, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
This input will be helpful for all of us here to cooperate to make our entries neutral. The false potrayal of SGI as having controversies and religious intolerance is disputed by independant scholars, and this entry here should be added to the subject of dispute with Catflap:
"Soka Gakkai offers a model of transnational religious expansion based neither on religious fundamentalism nor on soft New Age-ism. This study is based on fieldwork in Singapore and Washington, D.C., two global capital cities in secular democracies with very different policies on religious freedom and religious harmony.
I argue that members in these cities are able to hold sectarian religious beliefs deeply while still getting along with others, in part by redefining "dialogue" and placing themselves at the center of what it means to be global. Because the Singaporean government discourages proselytizing in order to maintain social harmony, members of Soka Gakkai have adjusted how they make incursions into the public so their activities do not seem coercive.
Similarly, in the United States, because of its past associations with "cult-like" behavior, Soka Gakkai has publicly distanced itself from activities that appear aimed at proselytizing. The softening of the group's public image through its skillful use of media has contributed to its rapid growth in these two global cities, where potential converts are attracted to the group's (noncoercive) "universal values," J.Funicane, Syracuse University http://surface.syr.edu/rel_etd/7/
This testemony is not taken from a tabloid newspaper as Catflap's some refrences are. I again ask for impartiality and cooperation in editing - in particular now regarding Catflap's questionable statement on SGI Proselytlizing. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
When a book mentions about controversies “in postwar Japan”, this may also refer to a period of half a century ago. It is simply unfair to label and stereotype SGI using inapplicable period and environment, without acknowledging the current reality.
I am surprised by your statement above that : “Papers that are published in academic journals are very reliable, but theses and dissertations which are not clearly published in such journals in general cannot be said to even necessarily meet the same standards as tabloid newspapers”.
This questionable statement was in reference to an "Abstract" of a professional research done by a Doctor of Philosophy in Syracuse University, http://surface.syr.edu/rel_etd/7/ (and whose full research was published within the University’s environment). As for online accessibility of this research, only that Abstract is directly available (while full article requires logging in and entering password). Ok, maybe this professional research is not acceptable as a reliable source in Wikipedia, this is one thing - but I find your judgment about a research you did not even read as being of a lower quality standards than tabloid newspaper – this I find unfair.
The mentioned Abstract of that professional research was endorsed and approved by the Department of Religion of Syracuse University, and it appears on their official website. It is possible that Wikipedia does not accept doctoral theses as references unless they are published in journals, however , to state that a research published within a University and mentioned by the University - does not meet standards that tabloid newspaper achieved – this statement poses a question. I wish I could contact the PhD researcher to ask him about his opinion about this view.
I sincerely wish to obtain another opinion from other Wikipedia Editors on whether an academic work of a PhD researcher published within a University environment is viewed by Wikipedia as less reliable or a lower in standards than a tabloid newspaper. In my understanding, Wikipedia welcomes reliable and accountable institutions such as universities as sources and references, and does not accept tabloid newspapers “storytelling” based on rumors, unconfirmed stories and possible defaming accusation. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The section Perception and Criticism required more clarifying citations from reliable sources to the presented views, which I added, starting with the first paragraph about world wide perception, then regarding the criticism about the "benefit", further regarding (one sided) criticism Nichiren Buddhism etc. In one sentence the word "Some" observers was used to mention just one observer, and this was corrected, as the word "some" does not apply to one person.Other wording mistakes corrected.(The sentence regarding Proselytizing is still under dispute) SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 08:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
The following material related to controversy regarding Soka Gakkai is to be found in the above title, which is, like I said earlier, considered to be at least one of the most widely respected and reliable sources out there. The material is also almost certainly also to be found in one or more of the bibliographic items for the article. On that basis, I believe content regarding this material is probably worthy of inclusion. The original article can be found on pages 8508 thrugh 8510 of the book, in volume 12.
from p. 8509
"One of the more difficult problems for Soka Gakkai after the latter half of the 1970s was its relations with the Nichiren Shoshu sect, its parent group. ... Nichiren Shoshu had a body of followers amounting to around fifty thousand. Soka Gakkai, through an affiliated organization, grew in strength under the Nichiren Shoshu umbrella until its membership was more than one hundred times the membership of the parent organization. There had earlier been serious conflicts .. over traditional doctrine and the authority of monks after Soka Gakkai emphasized new styles of lay religiosity and the authority of the Soka Gakkai president. [The groups split from each other in 1991].
Another difficult problem involved strong criticism from political rivals... Relations between the Komei Party and Soka Gakkai provoked controversy over whether this was a violation of the principle of separation between politics and religion....
Soka Gakkai has been characterized by its aggressive propaganda asserting that its teachings alone are correct and criticizing other religions and other Buddhist sects. The Shakubuku Kyoten... clearly demonstrated Soka Gakkai's exclusiveness, and few religious organizations have had a long-term friendly relationship with Soka Gakkai. Since the 1980s, ... more organizations have shown an interest in establishing friendly relations with Soka Gakkai."
I think this source is sufficiently well regarded to merit inclusion of such material in the article. John Carter ( talk) 15:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
What is not included in the article (maybe also in that Encyclopedia) is that in 1970, Ikeda outlined the modernizing line of SGI before 200priests who in utter silence listened to the new vision of the SG abandoning the rhetoric style of Shakubuku, changing this word to another, abandoning emotionalism and exclusiveness, declaring the line of Humanism and modenising the organization.
The Actual Proof speaks of itself: no wonder why SG grew to 100 x bigger than the feudal priesthood. Many non-Buddhist scholars admire the religious revolution and courage of SGI against authoritarianism. SG impact on the Japanese society is highly regarded in cultural circles, for example 65% of its membership constitute women, traditionally regarded as inferior to men, and the emphasis on equality, openness, respect is part of SGI teachings.
Now as for this: “Relations between the Komei Party and Soka Gakkai provoked controversy over whether this was a violation of the principle of separation between politics and religion....” So, what happened next? 50 years of controversy, and then what? Controversy originators had to acknowledge their nonsensical controversy. They have no legal stand to support their views. They can do absolutely nothing except for encouraging rumors and cheap media outlets (for ex. tabloid nonsense). The controversy drum is about opposing the “Right of Citizen to Vote”, and SG members have the right to vote under the constitution to any party of their choice. So what is the problem about? If there is a problem with the Kom/SG then let them go to court.
If Wikipedia editors are bringing this issue then it is fair to differentiate the situation from Western religious political parties, such as the Christian Democrates or Buddhist government in exile – these r serious mixing of religion with politics and this is not the case with SGI.
Repeating disgruntled controversies looks like an implicit contempt against the Legal and Constitutional System of Japan as being weak and incapable of resolving their controversy. Continual refrence to controversies without resolution ever, is useful for some political parties in Japan and their supporters in the West to try to manipulate the mind of people for vote gathering and doubts spreading - whenever an election takes place. But this boring repeatation of controversies will not mislead people who understand who has credibility and who has an empty basket: no valid argument.
The empty basket holders, who have no facts to criticize SGI, search in past and dead matters when SGI was dominated by the fanatical priesthood. And as the Encyclopedia correctly mentioned : “Since the 1980s, ... more organizations have shown an interest in establishing friendly relations with Soka Gakkai” – which abolishes the previous ( I think judgmental) wording of ‘aggressive proselytizing’ and which - in any case - was the priesthood effect, not SGI.
All this is supportive to the truth about SGI, the truth that made hundreds of professors and thinkers world wide - some Noble Prize winners - become interested in this phenomenon of lay believers revolution against feudal, authoritative and exclusive understanding Buddhism, opening their heart to humanity and providing interfaith dialogue. In fact criticizing SGI for its openness and interfaith activities is a proof of the validity of its teachings.
The “some observers” attitude - that which does not understand Nichiren Buddhism and wrongly labels it as intolerant - must face the contra argument of the intolerance and violence of others schools against Nichiren Buddhism, and in every intelligent presentation you hear the words: “on the other hand”. Just ‘one-way-criticism’ is not the way of Wikipedia. Citations and reliable refrences are important to clarify ambiguous statements and statements which do not convey the truth and constitute only POV. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Well in my books I am quite happy to almost any remark Safwan made as it says quite a lot … I mean its now out there to stay … okay I replied with some irony at times, but nevertheless it was worth the response. At any rate I feel Wikipedia is not intended to whitewash issues and it it should not be used to defame those who have different options, neither however is Wikipedia intended to take sides. Branding those who have different views as originating from tabloids is not on just as it is as a matter of fact basically intolerable to patronise those who may have not come to see “the light”. Religious matters are by nature controversial. I could mention a range of Safwan's comments, but to be honest I do want to get anyone blocked, I do not want to engage in an edit war. Being neutral is a tedious task even more so when it means to disregard ones own beliefs for a while. I at times too have to take a step back from my beliefs and try to understand what an outsider would make of it. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
John: I strongly object to your statemnt (2 sections above) that the 3 points I mentioned earlier in that section were : " what some might describe as quibbling over phrasing on the talk page" - if that was what you meant by your comment. The problem is not about "quibbling over phrasing", but about using Wikipedia by some editors to promote rumors, hatred, defaming millions of decent people - such as in this false and aggressive statement: When the individual who tells of his/her negative experiences of SGI, some do not hesitate to call that individual a traitor or someone out to destroy the org. having a negative life condition. Is can got as far as questioning the persons integrity”.
You have indicated that a Talk page is not about POVs, but that it is about about rational, civil and referenced matters. How reasonable is the essence of a statement that: ' someone heared that someone else heard that if someone critcises SGI then a person's integrity is questioned?' Statements portraying SGI in an utterly false picture on Wikipedia page do not contribute to Wikipedia. Refrencing such lies by rumor based tabloids, or internet chat rooms, is a question which will be rasied. Such an attitude of unrestrained tendency to poison the well- if made in a social or legally-responsible forum - would have brought the matter before the court. This is a serious matter. You said once that Wikipedia is evolving, and I respect this broadminded view, which also may develop in making Wikipedia accountable before the court if it was used to incite hatred between people and defamation. Wikipedia should not open its pages to utter lies, and I want to know whether there is any moral instrument or Wikipedia rule that may be used to prevent or discipline an editor who intently uses articles or talk page - as a vehicle for spreading rumors, unconfirmed stories, lies and sterotyping others. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Now just wait a minute --- okay gave my opinion on my family mebers belief, which to MY mind is worrying but where did I spread rumors or lies??? -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)-- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I added a new section about the major shared concepts between SGI teachings and other schools - as well as the main differences distinguishing the doctrinal interpretations of schools as far as information is available. I think the location of this important section comes handy after the section on main SGI Practice. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 12:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Well when posting insults of the lowest kind such as this one. Quote: Hey @catflop I know you are a pimp of Nikken. Don't push your NST ideology and motives here. Get the f*ck out of here you mtf !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.164.101.227 (talk) 15:43, 3 July 2012 (UTC) It won't be of much help at all … it indeed reveals some people's true intentions … who ever that IP-address in Bangalore belongs to. Please notice it has been reported and archived in the history of this article. Since the above user at least seemed to have spoken in defence of SGI I should however let that user know that I am not a member of NST, but its a prime example of so called religious tolerance practised by adherents of a certain so called religious group.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
First of all let's keep the discussion on how to improve the article, not attack one another. It needs improving. I do see encouraging signs of better co-operation starting to happen.
For a look at an opinion about how religious topics generally should be treated I recommend this. It's an essay, not policy or guideline, but seems to be me to contain much good advice, and could help those with strong personal beliefs understand what is required for an encyclopedia entry.
I also suggest spending some time looking the Religion and Buddhism projects linked in the header of this page, and specifically the lists of recognized content therein. That should help give guidance for what is necessary for a good or featured article.
Try and remember the reader who is likely to be a curious layman. Neutral and informative is better than polemic or technical.
Finally there are interesting factual elements that are not in the article at all (organisation into divisions, regions and sections for instance). I can also imagine a section that discusses the organisation country by country with number of members, regional centres, etc. For the UK for instance there is good hard information available at the charities commission website.
Mcewan ( talk) 08:45, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I have recently done some work to make the 14 pages of archive conform to the usual convention for talk archives - (they had become orphaned after the article was moved to correct the spelling). As a result they can be accessed and searched from the header on this page. Another consequence is that it would now to be possible to automate future archiving - I have not done this because we should have consensus first. Any thoughts? I think keeping a year's worth of live discussion would be about right. See User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo for details. Mcewan ( talk) 13:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
One of the least understood matters about SGI is the Mentor Disciple Relationship. The word "Master" is no more used - after disassociation with the priesthood - and it will be a new knowledge to many readers to know that SGI does not have one Mentor only, but a group of individuals and an original mentor of all humanity, The Buddha, or the life of Buddha, as literature explain. Regards. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I removed a passage saying that the Bodhisattva vow in a stanza in Ch 16 of the Lotus Sutra say's "...to make all persons equal to me..." This isn't a Bodhisattva vow, it was the Buddha's original vow since he attained Buddhahood in the remote/eternal past. - Steve ( talk) 16:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually "to make all persons equal to me without the slightest distinction" is from Chapter 2 of the LS", not Chapter 16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.79.160 ( talk) 00:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
As is required by Wikipedia rules, citation from independant sources are necessary and should be included in the text of articles. I have added a section : "After the Split" - which includes research artcles and books of university scholars after the Excommunication, and finally the impact of the split on SGI (regarding the excommunication as a spiritual independance). SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 08:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
You are criticising Daniel Metraux because he expressed a view which you do not like. This person is non-Buddhist and is a respected university researcher. His opinion is not different from B. Wilson and K. Dobberlaere, Richard Seager, prof. Bumann or also Jane Hurst and many others .....who studied the conflict between SGI and N.Shoshu. All of these researchers are authors of articles and books which - if biased - would affect their own professional responsibilities, their credibility and integrety and also the merit of their universities. All of them are neutral, impartial and non-Buddhist.
I don't understand your objection to the fact that the excommunication is celebrated in SGI as liberation, this IS a fact, and if the NST feels the same (liberated) then fine, how great, let all people celebrate liberation.
Wikipedia is about recording impartial facts. If you find any part of article which contradicts facts or is lacking refrence then you have the right to challenge or change it - provided you justify your editing by a proof. I will do this and I am challenging now the section about the Hokkeko, which has nothing to do with SGI. Why to insert that section? To say that Hokkeko gained some members out of the split - this is an acknowledgement of Hokkeko's aim to spread authority over some SGI members (many of whom left Hokkeko later). And what has the article to do with whatever rule of N Shoshu in 1997? And this nonsensical description that SGI members "MOST MISTAKENLY" believe that... what a nonsense! Is this within Wikipedia rules to insert irrelevant advertisment for Nichiren Shoshu / Hokkeko and their rules in 1997 and describe SGI members as having mistaken belief about whatever.....Please bring proofs of why inserting this section is necessary - also: the proof that SGI members are even interested in "priesthood rules" and that they are mistaken in what ever.
Finally, you are asking for a solution to this unending war between the 2 sides. Nichiren Daishonin said it is the Actual Proof that decides. It is the Actual Proof of working for self-development, KosenRufu & humanity is the solution. Attaining Buddhahood and delivering the proof of behaviour is the solution. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 14:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Nichijun Fujimoto, Nichiren Shoshu Head Temple's chief administrator, 12 Jan.1991 stated: "To talk about the priesthood and laity with a sense of equality are expressions of great conceit. In fact, they correspond to the five cardinal sins…” - what would an impartial academic sense in this but utter arrogance and disdain for ordinary people? However, if you feel strong about correcting other academics, then I do not think that Wikipedia is the best place for publishing your findings. With honest respect to your person and Buddha nature, I must say that you are oblivious of how emotional your views are, and how your statements about the split are based on who was right (the Priesthood, of course) and who was wrong.
SGI members are very clear about rejecting the domination of the Priesthood and about their spiritual freedom, and if not they would not continue in the gakkai, as is the case with some unsure individual. We live in a time of freedom. Each person is free to join whatever he/she sees inspiring. Some do not have any inspiration and sit on the fence arguing about the past. One GREAT results of the spiritual independance of SGI is the change in the system of prayers, from a complicated system invented by the Priesthood (to suit their temples locations, resulting in 5 + 3 recitation of the same Sutra text) into a modern, practical form of one recitation as recommended by Nichiren. This would have been impossible under the Priesthood's "Absolute Obedience" commands and conservative spirit. No where in the Gosho Nichiren recommended what the NST does in prayers. I practiced under the Priesthood for motre than 7 years, and I know how incorrect it was to do the Gongyo the Priesthood way, because - having just 20 min time in the morning for prayer - the time was consumed by 5 lengthy repetation of the text and no time for chanting was left (while chanting time should be longer than recitation time). The GREAT comfort and strong life force experienced by SGI Gongyo is a precious result of the Spiritual Independance. It was the MEMBERS who demanded the change in the form of prayers, and SGI HQ agreed. In itself this is a significant indication for independant academics who see the revolution of lay believers setting the form of prayers rather than accepting silently an authoritative form with Absolute Obedience. So no wonder impartial views support SGI.
I find this exchange meaningful. Please look at the future rather than digging the dead past, and who took divorce "because of the split" etc... The future is more important than the past and the Gohonzon has the power to transform any suffering, starting from our own. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
All of them [who are positive about the SGI] are neutral and unbiased but those who are negative about the SGI are not? Very interesting point of view you have. Some such as Levi McClaughlin have been both negative and positive about the SGI...See Dominating Tradition: Soka Gakkai and the Creation of History. Another article you might find interesting is: Can Scholars Be Deceived? Empirical Evidence from Social Psychology and History by Steve K. D. Eichel, Ph.D. Are you saying that those sociologists like Metreaux and Wilson haven't enriched themselves by writing positively about the Soka Gakkai and selling their books in SGI community centers? [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.79.160 ( talk) 01:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Without any explanation, someone deleted a section referring to the causes of the split. Avoiding mention of the causes of the conflict - weakens the value and the correctness of the article . For this reason I returened the section about the reasons for the Split.
The following text (in italics) had no reason to be in the article because of its unprofessional, ambiguous and incorrect nature: "The relationship between Sōka Gakkai and the priesthood of Nichiren Shōshū has been historically one of give and take." This view is like a story telling with no professional reasoning nor references. It is a POV. Wikipedia artcles have no space for imaginary points of view. And "Give and Take" what?:" While Nichiren Shōshū profited from a substantial growth of adherents and hence income by donations" - , Sōka Gakkai on the other side profited form the support of an established school of Japanese Buddhism" Who said this? Where is it mentioned? This text is giving the false information about the conflict and speaks about financial gain of the priesthood rather than the doctrinal causes of the split. And also: "the issuing of religious objects of worship, the so called Gohonzon' - this sentence is incorrect as Gohonzons were issued only by the Head Temple until the Split. "Ongoing tensions between the two sides were mostly based on authority and doctrine" If so then what are these doctrinal causes? Why hiding them? The causes of conflict should be mentioned in a short concise manner which I returned back to the article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 08:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Some readers might be interested in this 63 page analysis of the split by a former Nichiren Shoshu priest: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/wwNy42T1x_s Enjoy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.79.160 ( talk) 01:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Archives of this page have now been created in such a way as to be accessible and searchable from the header on this page. There is also a partial index of specific discussions (that used to appear here) at Talk:Sōka Gakkai/Archive Index. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcewan ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
The SGI is a world wide Buddhist movement based on the teachings of Nichiren. This is the correct and impartial description of the SG or SGI. To call the SGInternaltional a 'New Japanese Religion" is a result of ignorance. SG did not introduce any "new religion" and its teachings are based on the Lotus Sutra, humanistic and world wide, International - nothing Japanese related. The classification of religions based on ethnic origin of the founder or location of temples/members is questionable. Anyone who classifies Christianity as Palestinian, or the Catholic order as an "Italian religion" exposes incorrect grounds of classification. To say that SGI is "regarded" by "someone's opinion" as a new "japanese religion" is a sentence violating Wikipedia rules, it is a POV. There are hundreds of scholars world wide who regard SG as a humanistic organisation for peace based on Nichiren Buddhism and their view should also be included. Shall we include these as well at the starting definition to give a balanced perspective? I think this is unnecessary. To exclude the mess of clashing POVs, I deleted the controdictory sentence on how SG is "regarded". SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:39, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
No indeed. SGI is based on the teachings of the Three Presidents of the Soka Gakkai, some of the teachings of Nichikan with which the mentor agrees and some of the teachings of Nichiren which the mentor agrees. To be considered a Buddhist movement based on the teachings of Nichiren, one must have the same faith and practice as Nichiren. Interfaith based on the Lotus Sutra, for example, is a teaching of Ikeda not Nichiren. More correctly, SGI is based on the teachings of Ikeda, not Nichiren. [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.73.71 ( talk) 03:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I think that the article could benefit from the addition of an image of the Gohonzon as issued by SGI. Does anyone have one? Mcewan ( talk) 22:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree for adherents of SGI or Nichiren Shoshu a photographic image of the Gohonzon is prohibited. This however is different in other schools of Nichiren Buddhism. In the article of Nichiren Shu I blieve there is a link to a Nichiren Gohonzon (copy) that is issued to its adherents. In this scholl of Nichiren Buddhims there is nothing sacriligious about taking a picture of a Gohonzon.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
There is one option that might be a bit strange, but might work. The SGI Gohonzon isn't the only one. I'm not sure how remarkably different the SGI Gohonzon specifically is, but if it isn't that different we could add an image of a "generic" Gohonzon with a caption saying that the picture is of a Gohonzon, but not specifically an SGI one, indicating that they prefer theirs to not be photographed or published. The key question would be, I guess, how similar the different gohonzons are. John Carter ( talk) 23:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, it could be considered debatable if the deletion of the dedication was unimportant or not in the end there is an intention behind any dedication. SGI was in desperate need for a Gohonzon always asked myself why they did not ask one of the priests that sided with SGI to inscribe one or create an SGI-Version. At any rate this no subject here, yet. As mentioned above there is no image of a Nichikan Gohonzon available in Commons. Including one in the Gohonzon article seems fair enough though. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 14:27, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry Safwan but you do not represent the view of the Soka Gakkai, Toda, nor your mentor:
“Soka Spirit,” has a “featured article of the month” by Dave Baldschun (SGIUSA Study Dept) entitled: "Are All Gohonzons the same?” In that article, Baldschun arrogantly asserts,
“[a]t a time when copies of Gohonzon, some inscribed in Nichiren Daishonin’s own hand, are available over the counter or from the Internet, these examples offer a valuable lesson. Even though a Gohonzon is a Gohonzon, the source is important. We should be aware of those offering Gohonzon and teachings under the guise of Nichiren Buddhism but who are, in fact, propagating views that distort Daishonin’s teachings. In Letter to the Lay Priest Ichinosawa, the Daishonin states, If [sic!] the source is muddy, the stream will not flow clear...”
In an April 30th 2001 memo, “Distribution of Gohonzons” the SGI teaches that distribution of Gohonzon by any means outside of SGI (for example, via the internet, the Nichiren Shu, or the Kempon Hokke) is detrimental to the true spirit of Nichiren’s teachings only propagated within the SGI. Dave Baldshun, drunk with the arrogance of SGI, asserts that receiving, revering, or chanting to such a Gohonzon “would only create confusion and disharmony within SGI’s community of believers and thus may serve to undermine one’s own faith and that of other’s.” He then reafirms the policy of “the conferral of Gohonzon only as within the SGI, "the correct body of believers upholding the Daishonin’s teaching today. We do not support or condone the distribution, receipt, or reproduction of any Gohonzon in any other manner."
Toda teaches:
"We, ourselves, cannot produce the Gohonzon. Since it's the enlightened entity of Nichiren Daishonin, no one has the authority other than the successive high priests who have been the sole heirs to the heritage of the True Law. We take no part in this. Therefore, the objects of worship inscribed by those in the Butsuryu and Minobu factions [of the Nichiren sect] are absolutely powerless. They are worthless because they are fake. In fact, they contain the power of evil spirits. That is why they are dangerous." Former SGI president, Josei Toda, Daibyaku Renge, 98, p. 98.
Ikeda teaches:
"Members of the Minobu school of the Nichiren sect chant daimoku. They have the Gosho Their recitation of the sutra also includes the Hoben and Juryo chapters. And, in the Shoshinkai, which consists of ex-priests of Nichiren Shoshu , and the portions of the sutra they recite and the daimoku that they chant are identical to the practice we observe. Though their religion may seem the same as ours, they lack the single, unbroken heritage of the law recieved directly from Nichiren Daishonin. If one's faith is not based on this line of inheritance, it is worthless to embrace any Gohonzon, for no benefit will be forthcoming. That is to say, "Without the lifeblood of faith, it would be useless to embrace the Lotus Sutra." " Daisaku Ikeda, Buddhism in Action, vol 3, p 254
Is it that I know more about what the SGI actually teaches than you or are you trying to deceive the people? [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.73.71 ( talk) 03:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
First of all Safwan, you should admonish yourself:
"Quarrels about whose Gohonzon is “better” or “more authentic” are products of various temples fighting for own prestige. SGI was unable to confer Gohonzon on its members until 1993 when the chief priest of Joen-Ji temple in Tochigi prefecture, Rev. Sendo Narita conferred on SGI a woodblock Gohonzon originally inscribed by High Priest Nichikan Shonin. SGI Gohonzon is based on the conferred Nichikan Gohonzon and is the most widespread in the world, however, its spiritual value does not derive from who or where it was inscribed but from its owner’s dedication for enlightenment of self and others (who are interconnected with one's own life)." --Safwan
But I wouldn't expect anything else from you Safwan because you lack a clear mirror. [Mark Rogow] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.73.71 ( talk) 06:19, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I am a leader in the Soka Gakkai and I think you should take down the image of the Gohonzon. This is purely due to an issue of respect for it and for yourself. As it represents the most profound state of life and indeed your life to put it on the internet is disrespectful to it and to yourself, and is probably a bad cause for your life too. It may also encourage people to chant to it online rather than get one for themselves, and this would be a very poor substitute and is not recommended. I am not here in an official capacity from the Soka Gakkai but just as a member, but the official Soka Gakkai position is not to allow photos of the Gohonzon at all, and as this is an article about the Soka Gakkai I would ask that you please respect our wishes and remove the image as soon as possible. Thanks. -- Simon Y--30/11/12--
I am really not sure why you have taken such offence to my comment. I am a leader in the SGI (Soka team leader for SE London) and a member, but I am not here in any official capacity, and am acting on my own, just as a concerned member. It is not an issue of copyright at all, but a religious one, and one of respect. It is primarily out concern for you that I wrote that as you are in essence disrespecting your own life by placing the image of the Gohonzon there. I cannot see the benefit that would be gained from having an image of the Gohonzon there that you know is going to offend members of the SGI. I would ask again that you please take it down but I am happy to have a chat with you about it if you are unclear on the reasons for my objection. ---Simon YT--5/12/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.111.187.210 ( talk) 15:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I have to say absolutely that what I said was in no way meant as a threat in any way and if I have caused any offence then I apologise, that was not my intent. I merely meant that as the Gohonzon ultimately represents your own life to treat it with disrespect is the same as disrespecting yourself, which is not good. I know that you are not SGI members and that wikipedia is a secular domain and you may not understand the significance of the Gohonzon. I know you just want to provide information and education to people and that is admirable, but I feel that the image will upset some people as it has upset me, and there is no need for that as an accurate description would be more than sufficient. I will leave the discussion there and wish you nothing but the best. ----Simon YT----6/12/12-----
I previously added section "Similarities and Differences" between SGI concepts and other schools of Nichiren Buddhism. To support the information with references I had to bring citations from SGI literature. The section has 14 references (from [41] to [55]) and all except one are SGI based; doesn't look too balanced. This may have triggered the tag of "Advertisment" put at the beginning of the page - although the information provided was factual, however, there was no 'third party' verification.
I suggest here to perhaps move this section on Similarities and Differences from Soka Gakkai page to Nichiren Buddhism page. For example: the concept of Buddha, Three Trasures...etc... can be then viewed from different views of various schools, (so the sources would not be related just to SGI). This may shorten the article on SGI but enrich the article on Nichiren Buddhism and open the way for wider cooperation between editors regardless of affiliation. Appreciate your opinions. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:11, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Noticing repeated questioning and tension about Gohonzon image in SGI article, I would like to offer the following perspective dealing with Gohonzon on the Internet in general, aiming also for stabilizing the frequent deletion - uploading on this Wikipage:
First it is important for editors to know the copyright and the history of 'ownership issue': The Gohoznon is the Buddha’s gift to all humanity, but in the past, the mandala was regarded as a private property of Priesthood. This was challenged by SGI, who - after the split - was offered permission by supportive priests to reprint copies of Nichikan based Gohonzon.
Copyright issue has legal and also religious dimensions: Only Gohonzon delivered through the 'Community of Believers' is one which is conferred in accordance to the Three Treasures of Buddhism (The Buddha, The Law and the Samgha). Therefore individually obtaining Gohonzon from the internet expresses misunderstanding of one’s Buddhist practice, and expresses an attitude of making light of the Three Treasures of Buddhism, disregarding the Community of Believers. The Gohonzon is found in faith only and not in how the mandala looks like, for example, a copied $ 100 note may look exactly the same as a real $ 100, still it will have no credibility or benefit. Permission of the source of image is very important.
Now why there is a bit of tension here regarding maiking photo of the Gohonzon?
Because the Gohonzon is the Object of Devotion, it should not be treated like one treats any other usual household item - and it is traditionally accepted that making photos of Gohonzon reveals a careless or casual treatment of the mandala (which is , of course, not beneficial). However, even if a photo was made, like in some SGI celebrations or group gatherings - and the Gohonzon is visible at the background of the photo - then it is the intention behind making that photo which count, as Nichiren says: “it is the heart that is important” WND1 p. 1000
I would not personally publish an image of the Gohonzon and- most importantly - because it belongs to the Community of Believers, which delivered it in the first place. Nevertheless, one can treat the image published on Wikipedia page with openmindedness, and with good faith or positive outlook about the intention - and also with awareness about the environment of this public domain medium. It is important to accept the fact that the image of the Gohonzon is already published on the internet on other websites (there are about 120 Nichiren Mandala Gohonzon on the internet - and here now on Wikipedia. Uploaded image does not violate Wikipedia’s guidelines and should be accepted as that, however, there are issues with copyright, and with the wrong descriptions tagged to the image - and this will be questioned sometimes in the future, no hurries. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello, this is a partial re-post that I made in another section as perhaps this is a more appropriate one. I am a leader in the Soka Gakkai and member and I think you should take down the image of the Gohonzon. This is purely due to an issue of respect for it and for yourself. As it represents the most profound state of life and indeed your life, to put it on the internet is disrespectful to it and to yourself, and is probably a bad cause for your life too. It may also encourage people to chant to it online rather than get one for themselves, and this would be a very poor substitute and is not recommended. I am not here in an official capacity from the Soka Gakkai but just as a member, but the official Soka Gakkai position is not to allow photos of the Gohonzon at all, and as this is an article about the Soka Gakkai I would ask that you please respect our wishes and remove the image as soon as possible. Also, this is not an issue of copyright at all but a religious one, and one of resect for the members of the SGI and for your own lives. It does not matter if the image is available in other places on the internet, it is the fact that you have chosen to put it up, and also have the power to take it down that creates a cause for your life. If you would like to understand more about the religious reasons for not having an image of the Gohonzon on this site then I would be happy to chat with you. Please understand that my only concern is for you and for the respect of the Gohonzon. Thanks. ---- Simon Y-----5/12/12----
I have to say absolutely that what I said was in no way meant as a threat in any way and if I have caused any offence then I apologise, that was not my intent. I merely meant that as the Gohonzon ultimately represents your own life to treat it with disrespect is the same as disrespecting yourself, which is not good. I know that you are not SGI members and that wikipedia is a secular domain and you may not understand the significance of the Gohonzon. I know you just want to provide information and education to people and that is admirable, but I feel that the image will upset some people as it has upset me, and there is no need for that as an accurate description would be more than sufficient. I will leave the discussion there and wish you nothing but the best. ----Simon YT----6/12/12-----
I will make just one final post on the matter, I think that if people are taking down images of the Gohonzon it is probably for the reason that they are upset by the images on the internet, and I think to call that 'attacks' or 'vandalism' is a little extreme. ----Simon YT---24/12/12----
Simon, let's not get upset by anything. It is reason and the actual proof to be aware of our social circumstances and understand the views of others. I think a mature perspective is the most beneficial for all. Have a Happy New Year all readers. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
For anyone who is offended by the image, here are brief instructions on how to configure Wikipedia so that it is not displayed to you (providing you have an account).
Note that these instructions come from a help page that is much more comprehensive.
body a[href="/info/en/?search=File:SGI_Gohonzon.jpg"] {display: none;}
Once you have refreshed your browser's cache, you should see a caption instead of the image.
Mcewan ( talk) 14:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
This article mostly just lists things that people can find for free on the SGI website. If you look at the article on Quakers for example, it follows vaguely the same layout as this one, but theology only takes up about 20% of the article. Also, obviously that article relies on tons of third party sources. This article can easily do the same and I will use my Wikipedia-supplied Questia account to start working on that now. Shii (tock) 23:12, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Law is a very tricky thing. In the case you mentioned the court had to decide if there was a case for unfair dismissal. The court had not to rule if SGI was practicing proselytising or if SGI was/is religiously tolerant or not. So when saying that a case was dismissed is one thing to say the testimonies are incorrect is another - which is what you are trying to imply. One could also question SGI’s commitment to freedom of speech. The most famous case in the West was the one against Ms Jones – to say it right away she lost her case too, but why did she loose it? Ms Jones was an employee of SGI, after she left SGI she spoke publicly about ghostwriting for Mr. Ikeda and of other SGI internal issues. What it has in common with the case mentioned above was that both are cases of labour law. Ms Jones was silenced not because of what she said was true or not but because by speaking out in public she was violating the terms of her contract with SGI. Such contracts are known to protect the industry form industrial espionage, but to my knowledge uncommon to religious entities. Why SGI feels the need to do that is up to them. To my knowledge no court has ever said that SGI is or is not proselytising nor that it is or is not religiously intolerant. In both cases the courts decisions were based on the law of labour and law of contract. Finally a courts ruling can not discard the fact that controversies exist. Catflap08 ( talk) 09:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh no in contrast I simply underlined what the cases were about – labour law and unfair dismissal. No court ever had to decide if the experience of ex Soka University staff were true or not but if there was enough for unfair dismissal. In a democracy loosing a case does not make the one who lost liar. Catflap08 ( talk) 06:30, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
This talk Page is not about giving a controversial justification for inserting in a WP article misleading information. Again, this is an evidence that there is no safety mechanism in WP to deal with such matters and Richard Stallman's opionion on WP failure to address such issues is quiet clear. Referring to a Court case which was dismissed - and could have been based on false claims and sheer lies - but was inserted in WP article as if the claims were genuine - this will leave a mark on the quality of WP articles.
The COURT had not to decide if THAT interview or report was true or not this was case of labour law/law of contract. The interview was NOT the the object of the dispute. The report was about the ongoings at the named university. To assume that because they lost their case their testimonials or experiences (a term you should be familiar with) are rumours or lies (as you seem to imply) is an assumption and you thereby are trying to question their intergrity. Any reader with an average intelligence will realise that this is, was, and never wanted to be, anything else than a newspaper article. You do not seem to realise that what you are doing is trying to preselect what sort of information should be made available and which not. In the history of this talk section one can easily see that your are continuously trying to label any critical information lies and rumours - this is something you have done yourself. Other editors have warned you about that. In other words you place your judgement above anyone else's judgement. This is a a form of censorship and manipulation of the article. Catflap08 ( talk) 06:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
You do not seem to get it. Catflap08 ( talk) 06:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Malcolmxl5 ( talk) 22:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Sōka Gakkai → Soka Gakkai – - per WP:JATITLE honor the current anglicization used officially by that party. The official website of this organization uses "Soka Gakkai" without macron. Book sources also favour "Soka Gakkai" over "Sōka Gakkai". --Relisted Tyrol5 [Talk] 02:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC) JoshuSasori ( talk) 00:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)