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Frequently asked questions
Socialism and socialist are loaded terms in the United States and right-wing media while in the rest of the world they are usually just one of two major parties. When describing foreign leaders, American media only uses the S-word for socialists they oppose and never use it for those they support. So Maduro is routinely referred to as a socialist while Guaidó, a former member of the socialist/social-democratic party Popular Will (still affiliated to the Socialist International and described as social-democratic, "with socialist and progressive tendencies"; note that it is the Maduro government that says Popular Will is "fascist" or "right-wing") never is. Being opposed to Chavismo, or Madurismo, does not necessarely mean being opposed to socialism; there are at least as many types of socialism as there are months in a year. In addition, "[m]ost critics cite anti-democratic governance, corruption and mismanagement of the economy as causes of the crisis" rather than socialism [nb 4] and even those who blame policies for the crisis, only a few say "socialist policies" and they mostly say "populist" or "hyper-populist" policies, which are not the same thing. This should not stop us from following academic sources that use socialism, in a neutral manner as provided by the Historical Dictionary of Socialism, to refer to social democracy.
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This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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The page begins with "Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within socialism that supports economic democracy", before it later changing to "within the framework of a capitalist-orientated mixed economy", before later changing again back to "the most common form of Western or modern socialism, as well as the reformist wing of democratic socialism", before again changing to "a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism", before switching back again to saying it was a "dominant political tendency within the international socialist movement".
Is social democracy socialism or not? GeometryCrown ( talk) 23:44, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
This quoted piece cites two opinion pieces rather than academic papers. Is this really good conduct? Citing two academics and saying "described by academics" gives a false implication of a scholarly consensus.
"As a policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy." Allmänbildare ( talk) 22:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I think it's misleading to imply in the first line that economic democracy is one of the two main pillars of social democracy. I think this should be removed. I also think it should be clarified that today social democracy no longer stands for overturning the capitalist system. I'm not opposed to discussion of economic democracy or social democracy's more radical roots later down the page. But this is the principal definition that most readers will encounter on this page and currently it gives off the impression that social democracy is more radical than it is. This talk page is proof of how much confusion this is causing.
There's also citation bloat. There isn't a need for nine different sources for a single line. Oakley Kim ( talk) 06:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Czello @ TFD There was a consensus on the lead of this page, achieved by us 3 and others. Over the last 6 months or more I have noticed some editors have sporadically edited the lead intro without reaching a new consesus in the talk page first. The accumulated effect of these individual edits have led to the intro to change almost without recognition. I have only seen @ Czello make some edits and request people go to the talk page first. But unfortunately I see this hasn't worked. I propose the lead returns to the previous edit that matches the consesus otherwise I believe steps might have to be taken protect this page. Erzan ( talk) 15:57, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
The "In South Africa" section has nothing to do with the section its under ("Social democracy and democratic socialism"). It also doesn't seem to fit elsewhere in the article as its content is rather specific to South Africa, not social democracy in general. I propose this be removed.
Also regarding this line: "It is a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism, sometimes also referred to as a social market economy." This line is unsourced and also untrue. The social market economy is a liberal concept/model, not social democratic (i.e. tied to the socialist tradition) even if it may have similarities with the latter in practice. [1] [2] I think this to be removed also. Oakley Kim ( talk) 02:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Social democracy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Frequently asked questions
Socialism and socialist are loaded terms in the United States and right-wing media while in the rest of the world they are usually just one of two major parties. When describing foreign leaders, American media only uses the S-word for socialists they oppose and never use it for those they support. So Maduro is routinely referred to as a socialist while Guaidó, a former member of the socialist/social-democratic party Popular Will (still affiliated to the Socialist International and described as social-democratic, "with socialist and progressive tendencies"; note that it is the Maduro government that says Popular Will is "fascist" or "right-wing") never is. Being opposed to Chavismo, or Madurismo, does not necessarely mean being opposed to socialism; there are at least as many types of socialism as there are months in a year. In addition, "[m]ost critics cite anti-democratic governance, corruption and mismanagement of the economy as causes of the crisis" rather than socialism [nb 4] and even those who blame policies for the crisis, only a few say "socialist policies" and they mostly say "populist" or "hyper-populist" policies, which are not the same thing. This should not stop us from following academic sources that use socialism, in a neutral manner as provided by the Historical Dictionary of Socialism, to refer to social democracy.
|
This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The page begins with "Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within socialism that supports economic democracy", before it later changing to "within the framework of a capitalist-orientated mixed economy", before later changing again back to "the most common form of Western or modern socialism, as well as the reformist wing of democratic socialism", before again changing to "a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism", before switching back again to saying it was a "dominant political tendency within the international socialist movement".
Is social democracy socialism or not? GeometryCrown ( talk) 23:44, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
This quoted piece cites two opinion pieces rather than academic papers. Is this really good conduct? Citing two academics and saying "described by academics" gives a false implication of a scholarly consensus.
"As a policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy." Allmänbildare ( talk) 22:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I think it's misleading to imply in the first line that economic democracy is one of the two main pillars of social democracy. I think this should be removed. I also think it should be clarified that today social democracy no longer stands for overturning the capitalist system. I'm not opposed to discussion of economic democracy or social democracy's more radical roots later down the page. But this is the principal definition that most readers will encounter on this page and currently it gives off the impression that social democracy is more radical than it is. This talk page is proof of how much confusion this is causing.
There's also citation bloat. There isn't a need for nine different sources for a single line. Oakley Kim ( talk) 06:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Czello @ TFD There was a consensus on the lead of this page, achieved by us 3 and others. Over the last 6 months or more I have noticed some editors have sporadically edited the lead intro without reaching a new consesus in the talk page first. The accumulated effect of these individual edits have led to the intro to change almost without recognition. I have only seen @ Czello make some edits and request people go to the talk page first. But unfortunately I see this hasn't worked. I propose the lead returns to the previous edit that matches the consesus otherwise I believe steps might have to be taken protect this page. Erzan ( talk) 15:57, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
The "In South Africa" section has nothing to do with the section its under ("Social democracy and democratic socialism"). It also doesn't seem to fit elsewhere in the article as its content is rather specific to South Africa, not social democracy in general. I propose this be removed.
Also regarding this line: "It is a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism, sometimes also referred to as a social market economy." This line is unsourced and also untrue. The social market economy is a liberal concept/model, not social democratic (i.e. tied to the socialist tradition) even if it may have similarities with the latter in practice. [1] [2] I think this to be removed also. Oakley Kim ( talk) 02:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)