This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
SoHo, Manhattan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of SoHo Cast Iron Historic District was copied or moved into SoHo with this edit on 2011-06-18. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It might be worth mentioning that John F. Kennedy bought a place here when it was unpopular. It gained a lot of popularity after that. The price of real estate went up etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.66.210.25 ( talk) 18:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Who first called it SoHo??? Wshun
The mysterious faceless unnamed beggar fom Sullivan st. :)
I've convinced myself that SoHo is almost certainly a bacronym for a place named after London's Soho. Any etymologists want to pick up on this and investigate?
>>>>ANSWER::: Since a good number of us were alive when the SoHo name was first applied, let me confirm that the name was made up in 1968 by a group of artists who organized to get the area legalized for artist living. They created the blended word "SoHo" from a description on a City Planning map describing the area "South of Houston". And, by the way, the SoHo Artists Association was successful. And SoHo was formed. (ThreeToes)
Is there a reason to its unusual pronunciation? Houston is the name of a major city as well, and it is pronounced like Hyoo-stin there. I lived there for years, then moved to New York only to hear this completely different pronunciation of what appears to be the same name.
A discussion of Houston's pronunciation is fair and might even be needed, but why delete it altogether? An editor deleted Houston's pronunciation by stating: "inappropriate for an article not about Houston Street". Though, being that "SoHo's name comes from its geographical location in the city - South of Houston Street. Designated a historic landmark district in 1973" SoHo's unique pronunciation is appropriate, needed and relevant! Farfallina123 08:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
When you say "unusual pronunciation", I assume you are referring to the way the Texans, and their odd accent, pronounce the city in their state, not a street in NYC.
Fact is, Houston Street was pronounced "house-ton" before Sam Houston was ever born, and while Spanish was the official language in Texas.
Pronounce it "Hues-ton" only if you buy "in' -sur-ance" to go to the "thee' - a ter" in the "U'-nit-ed States" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downtown Boy ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Pronouncing it correctly "Howston" is an indicator that you actually live in New York City. The statement above, though, "SoHo's unique pronunciation", indicates that people might think that New Yorkers pronounce the neighborhood "Sowhow", which they certainly do not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randalny ( talk • contribs) 03:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
This photograph does not show a cobblestoned street but one which is paved. Cobblestones are round, pavings are flat. I don't wish to edit as I am unsure if these streets were indeed cobblestoned at some time, but both the photgraphs and references to cobblestones may be incorrect.
This mistake is made frequently on Wikipedia. Images of cobblestones can be seen
Greynolds999 ( talk) 17:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
They are "Belgian blocks". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downtown Boy ( talk • contribs) 19:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
ANSWER::: BELGIAN BLOCKS, not cobblestones. (ThreeToes) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThreeToes ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. - Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 20:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Related move requests at Garment District, Manhattan, NoLIta, Manhattan, and TriBeCa. — AjaxSmack 00:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.There's an excellent book on the history of SoHo redevelopment and gentrification titled "Loft Living" by sociologist Sharon Zukin. I don't have time to hunt it down right now, but if somebody is itching to make the account on this page more accurate and interesting, that should be your source. DarwinPeacock ( talk) 20:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
NO kidding. This page, as is stands is very poor history indeed and bears little if any relation to the facts of redevelopment in the area now known as Soho (and who still spells it Soho?) . Yes, I was there at the inception, and the facts are very well captured by Zukin's book, written in 1982 and exhaustively researched. Actio ( talk) 05:54, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
This article needs history added going back to the early development of Manhattan. What was SoHo in, say, 1738: farmland? A residential area? When did it acquire its name? Surely it doesn't predate London's Soho? I came here to find this out. See above: named in 1968.
70.59.42.142 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 11:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC).
ANSWER: there is an historical section in the original document forming the SoHo-Cast Iron Historic District. Here is the Link: www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/reports/SoHo_HD.pdf
I removed two external links from the article:
They appear to me to be not helpful for the encyclopedia, but rather are commercial advertisements. Open to discussion here. Please do not re-add to article without consensus. I visited here, by the way, after noting repeated advertising links being added to the Soho Cast Iron Historic District article. doncram ( talk) 15:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. I also removed new references to one of the hotels within SoHo, a park just outside of it and one museum inside of it. Perhaps the museum should have stayed, but I believe that if you have one you should have all. This is not a tourist brochure. Shoesbythedoor ( talk) 13:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
While the article may be technically correct in stating that SoHo ends at West Broadway in zoning terms, in real life West Broadway is generally considered the heart of SoHo, and the generally perceived neighborhood extends on both sides of West Broadway from 6th Avenue to Broadway. I say this as someone who lived there for ten years and knows the area intimately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randalny ( talk • contribs) 20:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Because of the lack of specific support, I have reverted your edits. Please do not make any changes to the article which are not supported by the consensus of the editors discussing your proposed changes here. BMK ( talk) 01:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I have merged all the content of the stub article (almost a sub-stub article) SoHo Cast Iron Historic District into this article. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 04:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
This section references "1982 Loft Law" as a reason for original artists staying despite gentrification, but the information on the linked page seems to contradict this claim. bendodge ( talk) 21:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I am currently a landlord in Noho and my family has owed the building for 23 years. I have never heard of non-artists being grandfathered into M1-5A and 5-B zoning districts for Soho/Noho. Especially since MDL 281(3) requires tenants to adhere to local zoning laws and the MDL's purpose Is to force tenants to adhere to zoning regulation. The section the author talks about in 1987 is MDL 281(4), which does not create a grandfather clause for non-artists. That section provides a second chance for tenants who missed the 1980-1981 window and that section does not disregard 281(3) that requires adherence to zoning laws, which prohibit non-artist from residing in commercial units. In fact, the Dept of Buildings will refuse issuing a C of O unless the tenants produce their Artist Certificates from the Dept. of Cultural Affairs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.164.162.186 ( talk) 03:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Alansohn: Yes, indeed, non-certified artists residing in M1-5a and M1-5b were grandfathered as legal tenants (whether owners or renters) in 1987. I know, I am one of them. But Wikipedia rules do not permit personal experience to count as "reliable", although printed matter is, as if oral tradition is not reliable. Anyway here is one of many "reliable" cites. A google search will reveal many more.
https://sohomemory.com/category/everyday-life-in-soho/ "For many long-time SoHo residents, most of whom are artists and some of whom are non-artists grandfathered by the 1987 amnesty,"
Downtown Boy ( talk) 12:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)Downtown Boy
Alansohn: The MDL is one thing. The Zoning Resolution is a separate document. MDL refers to IMDs. The ZR refers to JLWQA. Two different animals. Downtown Boy ( talk) 13:07, 17 April 2017 (UTC) Downtown Boy
Another editor has added a definition of the term neighborhood. I removed the excessive details and overlong quotation about the variability of neighborhood boundaries, as this is an article about a neighborhood, not all neighborhoods in New York City. The statement added is sufficient to address the variability. Furthermore, a use of Google Maps as a source was removed based on the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_221#Is_Google_Maps_a_reliable_source_for_boundaries_of_a_neighborhood.3F deprecating use of Google Maps as a source. The other editor appears to [[WP:OWN][ the article and has started an edit war with me and other editors here in this article. Any outside input will be appreciated. Alansohn ( talk) 23:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
....too compare the latest version of the article as I edited it [1] with the version as reverted by antoehr editor [2]. The other editor claioms that the paragraph on how a neighborhood is defined in New York City is ezxcessive, however it is there because a third editor attempted to define the neighborhood as being the same as the Historic Distric or the local Zoming District. (See the discussion here. The section is needed to explain to that third editors, and to others not familiar with NYC neighborhoods, why firm boundaries for SoHo cannot be given.
In addition, the reverting editor points to a discussion on WP:RSN about the use of Google Maps, however that discussion, which was brought by the editors against me, did not reach a consensus, so it cannot be cited in support of the reverting editor's actions.
In short, I believe the article is better as is, and that the edits of the other editor did not improve it. It should also be noted that the other editor did something very much like this on Tribeca (see discussion here) and appears to be expanding what is widely seen as his ownership behavior on New Jersey place articles to article on New York places. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
It should be noted that the text added by the reverting editor to replace the text I had used is factually incorrect. The problem is not that "the borders of the neighborhood have changed over time", but that the border are not officially set, and therefore are subject to interpretation by different sources. This is a different matter, and the reason for the explanatory material. I have no objection to moving some of that material to a footnote. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on SoHo, Manhattan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
An editor is attempting to remove the following from the article:
which is references to the AIA Guide to New York City, fifth edition, which says on page 111:
I have no idea what the editor's problem with this is. The AIA, by saying that SoHo "recalls" Soho, is clearly saying that it is reference to it. I have restored the editors unwarranted reverts until a consensus can be determined here. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 17:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I recently updated the article with a number of new photos taken and uploaded by Axel Tschentscher and Kzirkel (thank you Axel and Ken). These photos took the place of a number of poor quality images of buildings in SoHo characterized by myriad technical flaws. User:Beyond My Ken reverted these edits, reinserting the poor quality images. BMK has uploaded (or uploaded versions) of the majority of these images, raising a question of WP:OWNERSHIP. I am curious if other editors agree with my opinion that Axel's image's of SoHo are higher quality and thus better suited for the article. Filetime ( talk) 18:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
SoHo, Manhattan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of SoHo Cast Iron Historic District was copied or moved into SoHo with this edit on 2011-06-18. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It might be worth mentioning that John F. Kennedy bought a place here when it was unpopular. It gained a lot of popularity after that. The price of real estate went up etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.66.210.25 ( talk) 18:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Who first called it SoHo??? Wshun
The mysterious faceless unnamed beggar fom Sullivan st. :)
I've convinced myself that SoHo is almost certainly a bacronym for a place named after London's Soho. Any etymologists want to pick up on this and investigate?
>>>>ANSWER::: Since a good number of us were alive when the SoHo name was first applied, let me confirm that the name was made up in 1968 by a group of artists who organized to get the area legalized for artist living. They created the blended word "SoHo" from a description on a City Planning map describing the area "South of Houston". And, by the way, the SoHo Artists Association was successful. And SoHo was formed. (ThreeToes)
Is there a reason to its unusual pronunciation? Houston is the name of a major city as well, and it is pronounced like Hyoo-stin there. I lived there for years, then moved to New York only to hear this completely different pronunciation of what appears to be the same name.
A discussion of Houston's pronunciation is fair and might even be needed, but why delete it altogether? An editor deleted Houston's pronunciation by stating: "inappropriate for an article not about Houston Street". Though, being that "SoHo's name comes from its geographical location in the city - South of Houston Street. Designated a historic landmark district in 1973" SoHo's unique pronunciation is appropriate, needed and relevant! Farfallina123 08:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
When you say "unusual pronunciation", I assume you are referring to the way the Texans, and their odd accent, pronounce the city in their state, not a street in NYC.
Fact is, Houston Street was pronounced "house-ton" before Sam Houston was ever born, and while Spanish was the official language in Texas.
Pronounce it "Hues-ton" only if you buy "in' -sur-ance" to go to the "thee' - a ter" in the "U'-nit-ed States" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downtown Boy ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Pronouncing it correctly "Howston" is an indicator that you actually live in New York City. The statement above, though, "SoHo's unique pronunciation", indicates that people might think that New Yorkers pronounce the neighborhood "Sowhow", which they certainly do not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randalny ( talk • contribs) 03:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
This photograph does not show a cobblestoned street but one which is paved. Cobblestones are round, pavings are flat. I don't wish to edit as I am unsure if these streets were indeed cobblestoned at some time, but both the photgraphs and references to cobblestones may be incorrect.
This mistake is made frequently on Wikipedia. Images of cobblestones can be seen
Greynolds999 ( talk) 17:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
They are "Belgian blocks". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downtown Boy ( talk • contribs) 19:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
ANSWER::: BELGIAN BLOCKS, not cobblestones. (ThreeToes) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThreeToes ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. - Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 20:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Related move requests at Garment District, Manhattan, NoLIta, Manhattan, and TriBeCa. — AjaxSmack 00:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.There's an excellent book on the history of SoHo redevelopment and gentrification titled "Loft Living" by sociologist Sharon Zukin. I don't have time to hunt it down right now, but if somebody is itching to make the account on this page more accurate and interesting, that should be your source. DarwinPeacock ( talk) 20:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
NO kidding. This page, as is stands is very poor history indeed and bears little if any relation to the facts of redevelopment in the area now known as Soho (and who still spells it Soho?) . Yes, I was there at the inception, and the facts are very well captured by Zukin's book, written in 1982 and exhaustively researched. Actio ( talk) 05:54, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
This article needs history added going back to the early development of Manhattan. What was SoHo in, say, 1738: farmland? A residential area? When did it acquire its name? Surely it doesn't predate London's Soho? I came here to find this out. See above: named in 1968.
70.59.42.142 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 11:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC).
ANSWER: there is an historical section in the original document forming the SoHo-Cast Iron Historic District. Here is the Link: www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/reports/SoHo_HD.pdf
I removed two external links from the article:
They appear to me to be not helpful for the encyclopedia, but rather are commercial advertisements. Open to discussion here. Please do not re-add to article without consensus. I visited here, by the way, after noting repeated advertising links being added to the Soho Cast Iron Historic District article. doncram ( talk) 15:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. I also removed new references to one of the hotels within SoHo, a park just outside of it and one museum inside of it. Perhaps the museum should have stayed, but I believe that if you have one you should have all. This is not a tourist brochure. Shoesbythedoor ( talk) 13:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
While the article may be technically correct in stating that SoHo ends at West Broadway in zoning terms, in real life West Broadway is generally considered the heart of SoHo, and the generally perceived neighborhood extends on both sides of West Broadway from 6th Avenue to Broadway. I say this as someone who lived there for ten years and knows the area intimately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randalny ( talk • contribs) 20:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Because of the lack of specific support, I have reverted your edits. Please do not make any changes to the article which are not supported by the consensus of the editors discussing your proposed changes here. BMK ( talk) 01:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I have merged all the content of the stub article (almost a sub-stub article) SoHo Cast Iron Historic District into this article. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 04:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
This section references "1982 Loft Law" as a reason for original artists staying despite gentrification, but the information on the linked page seems to contradict this claim. bendodge ( talk) 21:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I am currently a landlord in Noho and my family has owed the building for 23 years. I have never heard of non-artists being grandfathered into M1-5A and 5-B zoning districts for Soho/Noho. Especially since MDL 281(3) requires tenants to adhere to local zoning laws and the MDL's purpose Is to force tenants to adhere to zoning regulation. The section the author talks about in 1987 is MDL 281(4), which does not create a grandfather clause for non-artists. That section provides a second chance for tenants who missed the 1980-1981 window and that section does not disregard 281(3) that requires adherence to zoning laws, which prohibit non-artist from residing in commercial units. In fact, the Dept of Buildings will refuse issuing a C of O unless the tenants produce their Artist Certificates from the Dept. of Cultural Affairs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.164.162.186 ( talk) 03:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Alansohn: Yes, indeed, non-certified artists residing in M1-5a and M1-5b were grandfathered as legal tenants (whether owners or renters) in 1987. I know, I am one of them. But Wikipedia rules do not permit personal experience to count as "reliable", although printed matter is, as if oral tradition is not reliable. Anyway here is one of many "reliable" cites. A google search will reveal many more.
https://sohomemory.com/category/everyday-life-in-soho/ "For many long-time SoHo residents, most of whom are artists and some of whom are non-artists grandfathered by the 1987 amnesty,"
Downtown Boy ( talk) 12:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)Downtown Boy
Alansohn: The MDL is one thing. The Zoning Resolution is a separate document. MDL refers to IMDs. The ZR refers to JLWQA. Two different animals. Downtown Boy ( talk) 13:07, 17 April 2017 (UTC) Downtown Boy
Another editor has added a definition of the term neighborhood. I removed the excessive details and overlong quotation about the variability of neighborhood boundaries, as this is an article about a neighborhood, not all neighborhoods in New York City. The statement added is sufficient to address the variability. Furthermore, a use of Google Maps as a source was removed based on the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_221#Is_Google_Maps_a_reliable_source_for_boundaries_of_a_neighborhood.3F deprecating use of Google Maps as a source. The other editor appears to [[WP:OWN][ the article and has started an edit war with me and other editors here in this article. Any outside input will be appreciated. Alansohn ( talk) 23:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
....too compare the latest version of the article as I edited it [1] with the version as reverted by antoehr editor [2]. The other editor claioms that the paragraph on how a neighborhood is defined in New York City is ezxcessive, however it is there because a third editor attempted to define the neighborhood as being the same as the Historic Distric or the local Zoming District. (See the discussion here. The section is needed to explain to that third editors, and to others not familiar with NYC neighborhoods, why firm boundaries for SoHo cannot be given.
In addition, the reverting editor points to a discussion on WP:RSN about the use of Google Maps, however that discussion, which was brought by the editors against me, did not reach a consensus, so it cannot be cited in support of the reverting editor's actions.
In short, I believe the article is better as is, and that the edits of the other editor did not improve it. It should also be noted that the other editor did something very much like this on Tribeca (see discussion here) and appears to be expanding what is widely seen as his ownership behavior on New Jersey place articles to article on New York places. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
It should be noted that the text added by the reverting editor to replace the text I had used is factually incorrect. The problem is not that "the borders of the neighborhood have changed over time", but that the border are not officially set, and therefore are subject to interpretation by different sources. This is a different matter, and the reason for the explanatory material. I have no objection to moving some of that material to a footnote. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on SoHo, Manhattan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
An editor is attempting to remove the following from the article:
which is references to the AIA Guide to New York City, fifth edition, which says on page 111:
I have no idea what the editor's problem with this is. The AIA, by saying that SoHo "recalls" Soho, is clearly saying that it is reference to it. I have restored the editors unwarranted reverts until a consensus can be determined here. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 17:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I recently updated the article with a number of new photos taken and uploaded by Axel Tschentscher and Kzirkel (thank you Axel and Ken). These photos took the place of a number of poor quality images of buildings in SoHo characterized by myriad technical flaws. User:Beyond My Ken reverted these edits, reinserting the poor quality images. BMK has uploaded (or uploaded versions) of the majority of these images, raising a question of WP:OWNERSHIP. I am curious if other editors agree with my opinion that Axel's image's of SoHo are higher quality and thus better suited for the article. Filetime ( talk) 18:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)