This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Slavic water spirits article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Знов поляки ковдру перетягують. Чому стаття має називатися бог/жинка, коли в більшості мов це навки.-- Юе Артеміс ( talk) 08:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Damn Polish lobby! Why does this article must be named Boginka, while the most of peoples calls it Nav_ka/ie (Slovenian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian)?-- Юе Артеміс ( talk) 08:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Having thought about this, I don't think creating a Slavic water spirits is merited. I don't think Eckhardt Etheling really made the case that all of these entities should be characterized as a water spirits. I don't think beings that are in usual instances are thought of more as wood nymphs (samodiva) or ghosts (rusalka) or fairies that leave changelings (boginka) should be categorized as "water spirits". This is POV. So the name that would make sense would be Slavic spirits maybe. But there is already a Deities of Slavic religion where Eckhardt has listed all of these, and he might as well partition more "bona fide" deities vs. "spirits" there, and the content would be the same. So Slavic spirits can be just a redirect to Deities of Slavic religion#spirits -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 17:21, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Rusalka be merged into Slavic water spirits. The content of the Rusalka article was already merged here and cleaned up of unsourced elements and parts not supported by the given sources, and the Slavic water spirits article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Rusalka will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 14:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Mavka be merged into Slavic water spirits. The content of the Mavka article was already merged here and cleaned up of unsourced elements and parts not supported by the given sources, and the Slavic water spirits article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Mavka will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Moreover, Mavka is just a dialectal variation of Navka or Navia, which is already treated in the Boginka article. Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 14:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: I think about half of Mavka is really about Kostroma (cf. [2]) and should be merged there, and the remaining half is WP:CFORK that should be combined with Nav (Slavic folklore). -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 19:02, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Nav (Slavic folklore) be merged into Slavic water spirits. The content of the Nav article was already merged here and cleaned up of unsourced elements and parts not supported by the given sources, and the Slavic water spirits article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Nav will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 14:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Half of Nav (Slavic folklore) is the concept of Nav (Slavic underworld) or Nav (place), the other half, about the spirit or soul is WP:CFORK with Mavka to reiterate from above. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 19:12, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Samodiva (mythology) should have remained separate and not merged without adequate discussion to form consensus. This too needs to be "de-merged
".
Samodiva is frequently described as "wood nymph", and it indicates that the aquatic nature of it is not always stressed.
I should also point out that samodiva has been described with serpentlike body and is sometimes conflated with the zmei, or "good dragon" in Bulgarian folklore, especially in songs about fairy brides. I also have found an instance of conflation the "evil dragon" lamia (St. George vs. lamia being substituted with the samodiva), althought that is just variant text and perhaps only an anomaly. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 10:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
read Machal" to show that they are considered to be always closely associated with water. I dont think this Czech writer Machal is representative. It should be quite obvious you have to come up with sources that are more attuned to Bulgarian studies in order to be convincing. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 18:43, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
(Samodiva) Samovila: Slavic goddess of woodlands. Samovila rules the forest and protects the animals that live within woodlands. She causes great harm to anyone who abuses her creatures. A shapeshifter, she can transform herself into any animal, and she teaches the skill to the devoted and faithful. Her knowledge of plants and herb medicine makes Samovila a favorite among kitchen Witches. — The Goddess Guide: Exploring the Attributes and Correspondences of the Divine Feminine
(Samodiva) Vila. A female being peculiar to Serbian mythology is the Vila, who partakes of the characteristics of both the Fairy and the Elf. These Vilas, represented as Mountain Nymphs, live in the forests on the hills, and love singing and dancing. They are young and beautiful, with long flowing hair, and are usually clad in white. They often mount up into the air, from whence they discharge fatal arrows at men, but they injure none except those who intrude on their revels. — The Forest in Folklore and Mythology, p. 109
Vila. Variations: Veela, Vilia, Vilya, Vilishkis, Vily, Willi In Serbian folklore, the vilas were the beautiful and young mountain NYMPHS clad in white; their voice was said to resemble the call of the woodpecker and was a warning of some mountain catastrophe, such as an avalanche. Vilas were known to carry off children whose mothers had, in a fit of anger, condemned them to the Devil or Hell. The vilas were said to injure those who interrupt their revelries as they dance beneath ... — Encyclopedia of Giants and Humanoids in Myth, Legend and Folklore
-- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 03:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)Variations: RUSALKA, Samovily, Vily There is a Slavic myth that when a person is cursed by God or a child dies unbaptized, he will return as a type of vampiric fay known as a vila. When it returns, it will look like a beautiful little girl with long HAIR. Living in clouds, meadows, ponds, and trees, the vila, a very capable combatant, will attack lone travelers. — Encyclopedia of Vampire Mythology, p. 145
The article cites the article of Mykola Mushynka from "Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine", which is a dubious source. With the rise of nationalism in Ukraine thEre are quite a few "professors" popped up who laborously rewrite the old history of Ukraine, with claims bordering on nonsense. I do not know about this one, but his statement "first mention of Rosalia on Ukrainian territory is in the Primary Chronicle under 1067" is an easily verifiable falsification: there is no mention of Rosalia in Pr Chr under 1067. That said, I do not contest derivation of the term 'rusalka' from Rosalia, but this theory originates in 19th century and there are far better sources for that. I just have no time right now. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Boginka (multiple face — boginki)
Bojinka — a female demonic character known in the Lesser Poland, South of Mazovia, in the areas of Polish-Ukrainian and Polish-Slovak borderland. The main functions of the goddess-the persecution of mothers and pregnant women, abduction and substitution of children.
An example of personification of a product of human subconsciousness was the figure of the boginka, which only women in labour were supposed to see. This kind of vision was surely caused by puerperal fever, milk-fever shock or an illness, which was not associated. It is strange that the hoginka should be seen only by the lying-in woman and not by her husband, present in the same room. Secondly, the boginka allegedly appeared only in the evening or at night, hence at the time when all kinds of illnesses intensified; finally its influence was directed only towards the mother and her child and not to other members of the family. Ascribed to the boginka was also stealing or exchanging a human child for a changeling (odmieniec), or even causing its death from frustrating vengeance. — Ethnologia Polona, p. 96
With the exception of this means of getting the real child back (which shows that the boginka is still very much a mythological pagan being), the other means are mainly magical and the same as against the devil — the sign of the cross, Christian amulets, exorcisms. The priest can free the woman from the hands of the boginka, but he must wear all his ceremonial clothes turned wrong side out. — THE POLISH PEASANT IN EUROPE AND AMERICA , p. 238
-- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 02:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)BOHYNKA (boginka, divá žena), demonic entity of anthropomorphic appearance, forest spirit with attributes of natural demon. In the obsessions of Orava, Spiš, and especially Zamagurí, the goddess was describing himself as an expressive evil, a ugly creature of a tall, poor figure, not overwhelmed by the hair, with large breasts that swoop over his shoulder. She had long, strapped hair stretching out on her heels and various body errors (she was barking, shrieking). She had grown nervous in her clothes, and she was naked. It inhabited rock and forest holes, hillsides and marshlands. The environment in which the goddess lived and the characterization of its appearance corresponded to the characters represented in the imagination of the Slavs by the demons of nature (in Slovakia known Runa, grgalica, poludnica). In relation to humans, the goddess appeared to be a clearly damaging being, threatening especially the six-eyed. They stole and exchanged their healthy children for their unborn goddesses (transform) that did not grow up, did not speak, and were very careful. — Bohinka. Center for Traditional Folk Culture. (in Slovak)
« Branched off of
#Назва / Article's name »
Kiyoweap, you are right, the article should be renamed "Slavic spirits", since it includes Vila and potentially other non-water nymphs. However, "Slavic spirits" is too generic, so: I propose to merge this article in "
Supernatural beings in Slavic religion", so it would improve the quality of the latter and would start the latter's rewriting. The title of the latter should also be changed to "
Slavic nature spirits", since "supernaturals" is odd, given that most of these spirits are not over-nature at all, and they are rather are in-nature.--
Eckhardt Etheling (
talk) 13:09, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Why don't you go ahead and help improving this and the other articles like you did with " Slavic dragon"? They are all in a disgraceful and confused state.-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 12:56, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Supernatural beings in Slavic religion was originally called "Slavic fairies" created by user:Joy who merged several beings (Polish wila [wilła], Serbian vila, and Russian rusalka, Bulgarian samovila) way back in 2004. Only certain writers lump rusalka together, so I think it should have remained separate, leaving the article to be either renamed something like vila (fairy) , or Samodiva (mythology), with redirects to vila⇔samodiva, which is the situation in other lang wikis ( ru:Вила: · sr:Вила (митологија) · bg:Самодива).
The use of the term "fairy" here can be justified by certain sources which say vila and samovila are seen as a parallel to Greek neraides ( el:Νεράιδες) or "fairy", [3] [4]. However, the article name got changed to Supernatural beings in Slavic folklore, which invited almost anything to be added into the article. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 12:50, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: To clarify, my view is that in-depth content on vila within Supernatural beings in Slavic religion should be merged with Samodiva (mythology). Then the remainder can be and the WP:CFORK that Eckhardt created could be merged in whatever way that everyone thinks appropriate.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 18:56, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Slavic water spirits article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Знов поляки ковдру перетягують. Чому стаття має називатися бог/жинка, коли в більшості мов це навки.-- Юе Артеміс ( talk) 08:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Damn Polish lobby! Why does this article must be named Boginka, while the most of peoples calls it Nav_ka/ie (Slovenian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian)?-- Юе Артеміс ( talk) 08:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Having thought about this, I don't think creating a Slavic water spirits is merited. I don't think Eckhardt Etheling really made the case that all of these entities should be characterized as a water spirits. I don't think beings that are in usual instances are thought of more as wood nymphs (samodiva) or ghosts (rusalka) or fairies that leave changelings (boginka) should be categorized as "water spirits". This is POV. So the name that would make sense would be Slavic spirits maybe. But there is already a Deities of Slavic religion where Eckhardt has listed all of these, and he might as well partition more "bona fide" deities vs. "spirits" there, and the content would be the same. So Slavic spirits can be just a redirect to Deities of Slavic religion#spirits -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 17:21, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Rusalka be merged into Slavic water spirits. The content of the Rusalka article was already merged here and cleaned up of unsourced elements and parts not supported by the given sources, and the Slavic water spirits article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Rusalka will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 14:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Mavka be merged into Slavic water spirits. The content of the Mavka article was already merged here and cleaned up of unsourced elements and parts not supported by the given sources, and the Slavic water spirits article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Mavka will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Moreover, Mavka is just a dialectal variation of Navka or Navia, which is already treated in the Boginka article. Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 14:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: I think about half of Mavka is really about Kostroma (cf. [2]) and should be merged there, and the remaining half is WP:CFORK that should be combined with Nav (Slavic folklore). -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 19:02, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose that Nav (Slavic folklore) be merged into Slavic water spirits. The content of the Nav article was already merged here and cleaned up of unsourced elements and parts not supported by the given sources, and the Slavic water spirits article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Nav will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 14:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Half of Nav (Slavic folklore) is the concept of Nav (Slavic underworld) or Nav (place), the other half, about the spirit or soul is WP:CFORK with Mavka to reiterate from above. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 19:12, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Samodiva (mythology) should have remained separate and not merged without adequate discussion to form consensus. This too needs to be "de-merged
".
Samodiva is frequently described as "wood nymph", and it indicates that the aquatic nature of it is not always stressed.
I should also point out that samodiva has been described with serpentlike body and is sometimes conflated with the zmei, or "good dragon" in Bulgarian folklore, especially in songs about fairy brides. I also have found an instance of conflation the "evil dragon" lamia (St. George vs. lamia being substituted with the samodiva), althought that is just variant text and perhaps only an anomaly. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 10:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
read Machal" to show that they are considered to be always closely associated with water. I dont think this Czech writer Machal is representative. It should be quite obvious you have to come up with sources that are more attuned to Bulgarian studies in order to be convincing. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 18:43, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
(Samodiva) Samovila: Slavic goddess of woodlands. Samovila rules the forest and protects the animals that live within woodlands. She causes great harm to anyone who abuses her creatures. A shapeshifter, she can transform herself into any animal, and she teaches the skill to the devoted and faithful. Her knowledge of plants and herb medicine makes Samovila a favorite among kitchen Witches. — The Goddess Guide: Exploring the Attributes and Correspondences of the Divine Feminine
(Samodiva) Vila. A female being peculiar to Serbian mythology is the Vila, who partakes of the characteristics of both the Fairy and the Elf. These Vilas, represented as Mountain Nymphs, live in the forests on the hills, and love singing and dancing. They are young and beautiful, with long flowing hair, and are usually clad in white. They often mount up into the air, from whence they discharge fatal arrows at men, but they injure none except those who intrude on their revels. — The Forest in Folklore and Mythology, p. 109
Vila. Variations: Veela, Vilia, Vilya, Vilishkis, Vily, Willi In Serbian folklore, the vilas were the beautiful and young mountain NYMPHS clad in white; their voice was said to resemble the call of the woodpecker and was a warning of some mountain catastrophe, such as an avalanche. Vilas were known to carry off children whose mothers had, in a fit of anger, condemned them to the Devil or Hell. The vilas were said to injure those who interrupt their revelries as they dance beneath ... — Encyclopedia of Giants and Humanoids in Myth, Legend and Folklore
-- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 03:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)Variations: RUSALKA, Samovily, Vily There is a Slavic myth that when a person is cursed by God or a child dies unbaptized, he will return as a type of vampiric fay known as a vila. When it returns, it will look like a beautiful little girl with long HAIR. Living in clouds, meadows, ponds, and trees, the vila, a very capable combatant, will attack lone travelers. — Encyclopedia of Vampire Mythology, p. 145
The article cites the article of Mykola Mushynka from "Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine", which is a dubious source. With the rise of nationalism in Ukraine thEre are quite a few "professors" popped up who laborously rewrite the old history of Ukraine, with claims bordering on nonsense. I do not know about this one, but his statement "first mention of Rosalia on Ukrainian territory is in the Primary Chronicle under 1067" is an easily verifiable falsification: there is no mention of Rosalia in Pr Chr under 1067. That said, I do not contest derivation of the term 'rusalka' from Rosalia, but this theory originates in 19th century and there are far better sources for that. I just have no time right now. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Boginka (multiple face — boginki)
Bojinka — a female demonic character known in the Lesser Poland, South of Mazovia, in the areas of Polish-Ukrainian and Polish-Slovak borderland. The main functions of the goddess-the persecution of mothers and pregnant women, abduction and substitution of children.
An example of personification of a product of human subconsciousness was the figure of the boginka, which only women in labour were supposed to see. This kind of vision was surely caused by puerperal fever, milk-fever shock or an illness, which was not associated. It is strange that the hoginka should be seen only by the lying-in woman and not by her husband, present in the same room. Secondly, the boginka allegedly appeared only in the evening or at night, hence at the time when all kinds of illnesses intensified; finally its influence was directed only towards the mother and her child and not to other members of the family. Ascribed to the boginka was also stealing or exchanging a human child for a changeling (odmieniec), or even causing its death from frustrating vengeance. — Ethnologia Polona, p. 96
With the exception of this means of getting the real child back (which shows that the boginka is still very much a mythological pagan being), the other means are mainly magical and the same as against the devil — the sign of the cross, Christian amulets, exorcisms. The priest can free the woman from the hands of the boginka, but he must wear all his ceremonial clothes turned wrong side out. — THE POLISH PEASANT IN EUROPE AND AMERICA , p. 238
-- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 02:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)BOHYNKA (boginka, divá žena), demonic entity of anthropomorphic appearance, forest spirit with attributes of natural demon. In the obsessions of Orava, Spiš, and especially Zamagurí, the goddess was describing himself as an expressive evil, a ugly creature of a tall, poor figure, not overwhelmed by the hair, with large breasts that swoop over his shoulder. She had long, strapped hair stretching out on her heels and various body errors (she was barking, shrieking). She had grown nervous in her clothes, and she was naked. It inhabited rock and forest holes, hillsides and marshlands. The environment in which the goddess lived and the characterization of its appearance corresponded to the characters represented in the imagination of the Slavs by the demons of nature (in Slovakia known Runa, grgalica, poludnica). In relation to humans, the goddess appeared to be a clearly damaging being, threatening especially the six-eyed. They stole and exchanged their healthy children for their unborn goddesses (transform) that did not grow up, did not speak, and were very careful. — Bohinka. Center for Traditional Folk Culture. (in Slovak)
« Branched off of
#Назва / Article's name »
Kiyoweap, you are right, the article should be renamed "Slavic spirits", since it includes Vila and potentially other non-water nymphs. However, "Slavic spirits" is too generic, so: I propose to merge this article in "
Supernatural beings in Slavic religion", so it would improve the quality of the latter and would start the latter's rewriting. The title of the latter should also be changed to "
Slavic nature spirits", since "supernaturals" is odd, given that most of these spirits are not over-nature at all, and they are rather are in-nature.--
Eckhardt Etheling (
talk) 13:09, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Why don't you go ahead and help improving this and the other articles like you did with " Slavic dragon"? They are all in a disgraceful and confused state.-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 12:56, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Supernatural beings in Slavic religion was originally called "Slavic fairies" created by user:Joy who merged several beings (Polish wila [wilła], Serbian vila, and Russian rusalka, Bulgarian samovila) way back in 2004. Only certain writers lump rusalka together, so I think it should have remained separate, leaving the article to be either renamed something like vila (fairy) , or Samodiva (mythology), with redirects to vila⇔samodiva, which is the situation in other lang wikis ( ru:Вила: · sr:Вила (митологија) · bg:Самодива).
The use of the term "fairy" here can be justified by certain sources which say vila and samovila are seen as a parallel to Greek neraides ( el:Νεράιδες) or "fairy", [3] [4]. However, the article name got changed to Supernatural beings in Slavic folklore, which invited almost anything to be added into the article. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 12:50, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: To clarify, my view is that in-depth content on vila within Supernatural beings in Slavic religion should be merged with Samodiva (mythology). Then the remainder can be and the WP:CFORK that Eckhardt created could be merged in whatever way that everyone thinks appropriate.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 18:56, 28 April 2018 (UTC)