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Tropcho is once again pushing a Bulgarian POV in this article. The above discussion ended with a consensus based on the vast majority of sources that these Slavic dialects in Greece were either 1) Macedonian or 2) part of a single language that includes both Macedonian and Bulgarian (not named "Bulgarian", by the way). The tiny minority of opinion was that they were Bulgarian dialects. Tropcho is again pushing the agenda that these are Bulgarian dialects. He is obviously using "Bulgarian" as the incorrect name of a language that includes both Macedonian and Bulgarian as a single language, but uses that term to confuse readers into thinking that these dialects are Bulgarian (and not Macedonian). -- Taivo ( talk) 22:28, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
First, I hope you realize that WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION are about article titles and have little bearing here. Second, you say you can present additional sources to support your view. That's nice. So can other editors. I would ask, since you had plenty of time to present them so far, why didn't you do it? But I think the bigger problem is that your suggestion to bring in additional sources at this point is indicative of your desire to make a blanket statement based on these sources (which would constitute WP:ORIGINALSYN/ WP:OR) and aims to compensate for the fact that none of the sources you provided so far support those blanket statements you're making (trying to present one view as fringe, tiny minority, etc.), in contradiction to WP:RS/AC. This is also obvious from your claims to expertise. Are you aware you're trying to do that? Is there a source that supports your blanket statements directly? Also, regarding Katzner, what is your claim about him not being reliable based on? Regarding van Wijk, are you saying there is any ambiguity in the translation of the French "Bulgare" into the English "Bulgarian"? Finally, if the view that Macedonian can be considered a dialect of Bulgarian is fringe, why is it mentioned by about 10 of the references we discussed? Tropcho ( talk) 10:00, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
There is some consensus, that the information in option 2 is somehow incorporated into the section. The way it is incorporated, say in the first sentence, I find no consensus for." Option #2 reads, in its entirety:
#2 There are good reasons to mention both. There are a number of neutral sources that either a) consider Macedonian and Bulgarian to be dialects of a single language; or b) point out that all Macedonian dialects (including these spoken in northern Greece) have sometimes been classified as dialects of Bulgarian; or c) state that there is no sharp boundary on a local level between Bulgarian and Macedonian and that therefore the extent of the two languages is controversial d) state that from a strictly linguistic point of view the question whether Macedonian and Bulgarian are distinct languages or dialects of each other cannot be decided (D. Crystal, The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, 2nd ed., and Chambers and Trudgill, Dialectology, Cambridge UP, 1998). According to L. Danforth (The Macedonian Conflict, Princeton University Press 1997), there is consensus among sociolinguists about point (d) (i.e. the question whether M and B are distinct languages is not decidable on the basis of strictly linguistic criteria). Thus in any case it seems justified to mention both.
So, clearly there is consensus to mention both classifications in the secttion, and to cover the fact that there is controversy (off-WP, I mean) about them, including a reliably sourced view that the language cannot be unproblematically classified. There's no consensus to put this in the lead sentence of the section, so let's not. It doesn't make sense there anyway, since it would lead to a terrible run-on sentence (like RFC option #2 itself). It's enough material for several sentences. In the section, after a summarizing introductory lead in that tells readers there are multiple classifications and some controversy about them, go into sourced detail about the various classifications and those controversies, covering all four points, A–D, in #2 above. This solution is what will best serve our readers. Neither Taivo nor Tropcho are in any position to have this article be the " WP:RIGHTVERSION", advancing their favored view of which classification is the "correct" one. As a linguist by training (in part; it was my university minor, and cultural anthropology my major), I know full well that these sorts of classifications, even entire systems of such classifications, are artificial, arbitrary, shifting, subjective, based on incompatible factors, and frequently influenced by extraneous concerns, like politics. The controversial reclassification of all indigenous Western Hemisphere languages into three families is one such major upheaval, and another is the erosion of the P-Celtic and Q-Celtic linguistic theory. Linguistics is a rather soft science (or aggregate of sciences, if you like to think of disciplines like psycholinguistics as their own sciences), like all of the social sciences. Even the distinction between a "language" and a "dialect" varies between classification systems, and is subject to a lot of subjective interpretation. WP is not the place to advance a point of view about what language classification is "better". Some PoV pushing will naturally occur, and be corrected, as adherents to one theory or another try to improve the appearance of or denigrate a theory, in the articles on those theories. This kind of editorial strife is generally pretty manageable. It gets really out of hand rapidly, however, when people also start mixing in their ethnic and national points of view. If you want to see how that ends up, see the ArbCom cases WP:ARBAA and WP:ARBAA2, and see how many editors have been blocked or subjected to other discretionary sanctions in their wake. Let's not go there with this kind of topic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't want to pretend I'm a totally uninvolved party on this talk page, but my involvement has mostly been (and remains) having concerns over the terribly ambiguous title. Something like "Speakers of Slavic languages in Macedonia" would be much clearer. "Slavic" isn't a language but a language family, and not everyone who speaks a Slavic language in Macedonia is native to that nation-state, the borders and even autonomous existence of which have not been stable in my lifetime. Using "of" here seems misleading, unless the entire construction were recast, e.g. "Slavic language demographics of Macedonia". Other constructions could be "Slavic languages in Macedonia", "Slavic-language usage in Macedonia", etc. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks SMcCandlish for the nice explanation of the problem with WP:OR! It seems that the main remaining point to be discussed is whether Bulgarian is a suitable name for the second classification. While trying to resolve this, it's probably not a bad idea to stick to the sources.
Looking at the sources we find Bulgaro-Macedonian (Vaillant and Mazon), Bulgarski+Makedonski (= Bulgarian-Macedonian) (Linguasphere) used to describe the common Bulgaro-Macedonian language. We also find sources stating either that Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian or that it is sometimes considered as such (Katzner, van Wijk, Chambers & Trudgill, Crystal, Henniger + most Bulgarian sources). Others state that the southwestern boundary of Bulgarian (i.e. the boundary between Bulgarian and Macedonian) is controversial and that the Slavic dialects of Greece are sometimes classified as Bulgarian (Comrie & Corbett, Schmieger). Trudgill states that the question is whether these dialects should be classified as Bulgarian or Macedonian. So it certainly appears that Bulgarian is not an uncommon name, and not less common than Bulgaro-Macedonian, Bulgarian-Macedonian, etc.
So it seems to me that using Bulgarian isn't problematic or misleading because 1) it is used by the sources 2) it appears to be the point of the sources mentioned above that these dialects can be classified as dialects of Bulgarian, precisely the language spoken in Bulgaria, and one of the two standard varieties in the dialect continuum.
At first sight it might indeed appear strange that there's an asymmetry, i.e. why would some sources say that Macedonian is considered a dialect of Bulgarian (which is basically equivalent to referring to the common Bulgaro-Macedonian simply as Bulgarian) and not the other way around?
The reasons for this are historical, and perhaps a small historical aside is in order here: In the Bulgaro-Macedonian (or East South Slavic) dialect continuum only one standard variety (Bulgarian) existed until the codification of Macedonian within Yugoslavia after WWII. Until then Macedonian dialects were widely regarded as dialects of Bulgarian. As recounted e.g. by Loring Danforth (The Macedonian Conflict, Princeton UP, 1997), the idea of a separate Macedonian language and identity didn't really pick up a lot of momentum until after WWII, when it gained strong support from the communist Yugoslav government, which saw in it a way to ward off Bulgarian influence in Vardar Macedonia, preclude potential territorial claims, and deal with pro-Bulgarian feelings among the population. Thus within Yugoslav Macedonia, the distinctness of Macedonian from Bulgarian was emphasized and the idea that B and M are dialects of a single language was something of a taboo, as it would undermine the distinctness of the Macedonian identity. Hopefully this goes some way in explaining the asymmetry. End aside.
I therefore would propose a wording in the spirit of: “These dialects have been classified as dialects of Macedonian or a common Bulgaro-Macedonian language variously referred to as Bulgaro-Macedonian, Macedo-Bulgarian, Bulgarian-Macedonian, or simply Bulgarian.” (or something along these lines). East South Slavic is already mentioned in the first sentence so do we want to mention it again? (btw, I agree that South Slavic languages#Eastern group should be expanded). Also I'm not sure I recall which of the sources mentioned refers to the common Bulgaro-Macedonian language as “East South Slavic”. P.S. It's quite busy at work these days so I might take some time to respond. Tropcho ( talk) 23:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Option #2 was a pretty clear outcome of the RFC. We now merely have a dispute between two subtly different wordings for the second sentence of Education and language:
I have an interest in language politics but I am not a linguist. It seems to me that the RFC outcome is satisfied by the new first sentence, and that neither option for second sentence is helpful, since, as we say elsewhere The precise delimitation between these languages is fleeting and controversial. May I suggest that the entire sentence is deleted?
It might help readers to link the dialect continuum article somewhere in the paragraph.
-- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 12:43, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
I did mis-attribute a comment in my comment. Sorry and fixed. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 16:23, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
Probably none. Why don't you move this to the page for ethnic Macedonians living in Greece? I will show you few hundred self-declared Macedonians, despite the government pressure... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirev ( talk • contribs) 13:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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According to statements by Slavic speakers of Hellenic Macedonia, the language is also called "our own (language)" among the Slavic speakers: [3]. This needs to be noted in the article. Առմենիե ( talk) 04:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Tropcho is once again pushing a Bulgarian POV in this article. The above discussion ended with a consensus based on the vast majority of sources that these Slavic dialects in Greece were either 1) Macedonian or 2) part of a single language that includes both Macedonian and Bulgarian (not named "Bulgarian", by the way). The tiny minority of opinion was that they were Bulgarian dialects. Tropcho is again pushing the agenda that these are Bulgarian dialects. He is obviously using "Bulgarian" as the incorrect name of a language that includes both Macedonian and Bulgarian as a single language, but uses that term to confuse readers into thinking that these dialects are Bulgarian (and not Macedonian). -- Taivo ( talk) 22:28, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
First, I hope you realize that WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION are about article titles and have little bearing here. Second, you say you can present additional sources to support your view. That's nice. So can other editors. I would ask, since you had plenty of time to present them so far, why didn't you do it? But I think the bigger problem is that your suggestion to bring in additional sources at this point is indicative of your desire to make a blanket statement based on these sources (which would constitute WP:ORIGINALSYN/ WP:OR) and aims to compensate for the fact that none of the sources you provided so far support those blanket statements you're making (trying to present one view as fringe, tiny minority, etc.), in contradiction to WP:RS/AC. This is also obvious from your claims to expertise. Are you aware you're trying to do that? Is there a source that supports your blanket statements directly? Also, regarding Katzner, what is your claim about him not being reliable based on? Regarding van Wijk, are you saying there is any ambiguity in the translation of the French "Bulgare" into the English "Bulgarian"? Finally, if the view that Macedonian can be considered a dialect of Bulgarian is fringe, why is it mentioned by about 10 of the references we discussed? Tropcho ( talk) 10:00, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
There is some consensus, that the information in option 2 is somehow incorporated into the section. The way it is incorporated, say in the first sentence, I find no consensus for." Option #2 reads, in its entirety:
#2 There are good reasons to mention both. There are a number of neutral sources that either a) consider Macedonian and Bulgarian to be dialects of a single language; or b) point out that all Macedonian dialects (including these spoken in northern Greece) have sometimes been classified as dialects of Bulgarian; or c) state that there is no sharp boundary on a local level between Bulgarian and Macedonian and that therefore the extent of the two languages is controversial d) state that from a strictly linguistic point of view the question whether Macedonian and Bulgarian are distinct languages or dialects of each other cannot be decided (D. Crystal, The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, 2nd ed., and Chambers and Trudgill, Dialectology, Cambridge UP, 1998). According to L. Danforth (The Macedonian Conflict, Princeton University Press 1997), there is consensus among sociolinguists about point (d) (i.e. the question whether M and B are distinct languages is not decidable on the basis of strictly linguistic criteria). Thus in any case it seems justified to mention both.
So, clearly there is consensus to mention both classifications in the secttion, and to cover the fact that there is controversy (off-WP, I mean) about them, including a reliably sourced view that the language cannot be unproblematically classified. There's no consensus to put this in the lead sentence of the section, so let's not. It doesn't make sense there anyway, since it would lead to a terrible run-on sentence (like RFC option #2 itself). It's enough material for several sentences. In the section, after a summarizing introductory lead in that tells readers there are multiple classifications and some controversy about them, go into sourced detail about the various classifications and those controversies, covering all four points, A–D, in #2 above. This solution is what will best serve our readers. Neither Taivo nor Tropcho are in any position to have this article be the " WP:RIGHTVERSION", advancing their favored view of which classification is the "correct" one. As a linguist by training (in part; it was my university minor, and cultural anthropology my major), I know full well that these sorts of classifications, even entire systems of such classifications, are artificial, arbitrary, shifting, subjective, based on incompatible factors, and frequently influenced by extraneous concerns, like politics. The controversial reclassification of all indigenous Western Hemisphere languages into three families is one such major upheaval, and another is the erosion of the P-Celtic and Q-Celtic linguistic theory. Linguistics is a rather soft science (or aggregate of sciences, if you like to think of disciplines like psycholinguistics as their own sciences), like all of the social sciences. Even the distinction between a "language" and a "dialect" varies between classification systems, and is subject to a lot of subjective interpretation. WP is not the place to advance a point of view about what language classification is "better". Some PoV pushing will naturally occur, and be corrected, as adherents to one theory or another try to improve the appearance of or denigrate a theory, in the articles on those theories. This kind of editorial strife is generally pretty manageable. It gets really out of hand rapidly, however, when people also start mixing in their ethnic and national points of view. If you want to see how that ends up, see the ArbCom cases WP:ARBAA and WP:ARBAA2, and see how many editors have been blocked or subjected to other discretionary sanctions in their wake. Let's not go there with this kind of topic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't want to pretend I'm a totally uninvolved party on this talk page, but my involvement has mostly been (and remains) having concerns over the terribly ambiguous title. Something like "Speakers of Slavic languages in Macedonia" would be much clearer. "Slavic" isn't a language but a language family, and not everyone who speaks a Slavic language in Macedonia is native to that nation-state, the borders and even autonomous existence of which have not been stable in my lifetime. Using "of" here seems misleading, unless the entire construction were recast, e.g. "Slavic language demographics of Macedonia". Other constructions could be "Slavic languages in Macedonia", "Slavic-language usage in Macedonia", etc. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks SMcCandlish for the nice explanation of the problem with WP:OR! It seems that the main remaining point to be discussed is whether Bulgarian is a suitable name for the second classification. While trying to resolve this, it's probably not a bad idea to stick to the sources.
Looking at the sources we find Bulgaro-Macedonian (Vaillant and Mazon), Bulgarski+Makedonski (= Bulgarian-Macedonian) (Linguasphere) used to describe the common Bulgaro-Macedonian language. We also find sources stating either that Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian or that it is sometimes considered as such (Katzner, van Wijk, Chambers & Trudgill, Crystal, Henniger + most Bulgarian sources). Others state that the southwestern boundary of Bulgarian (i.e. the boundary between Bulgarian and Macedonian) is controversial and that the Slavic dialects of Greece are sometimes classified as Bulgarian (Comrie & Corbett, Schmieger). Trudgill states that the question is whether these dialects should be classified as Bulgarian or Macedonian. So it certainly appears that Bulgarian is not an uncommon name, and not less common than Bulgaro-Macedonian, Bulgarian-Macedonian, etc.
So it seems to me that using Bulgarian isn't problematic or misleading because 1) it is used by the sources 2) it appears to be the point of the sources mentioned above that these dialects can be classified as dialects of Bulgarian, precisely the language spoken in Bulgaria, and one of the two standard varieties in the dialect continuum.
At first sight it might indeed appear strange that there's an asymmetry, i.e. why would some sources say that Macedonian is considered a dialect of Bulgarian (which is basically equivalent to referring to the common Bulgaro-Macedonian simply as Bulgarian) and not the other way around?
The reasons for this are historical, and perhaps a small historical aside is in order here: In the Bulgaro-Macedonian (or East South Slavic) dialect continuum only one standard variety (Bulgarian) existed until the codification of Macedonian within Yugoslavia after WWII. Until then Macedonian dialects were widely regarded as dialects of Bulgarian. As recounted e.g. by Loring Danforth (The Macedonian Conflict, Princeton UP, 1997), the idea of a separate Macedonian language and identity didn't really pick up a lot of momentum until after WWII, when it gained strong support from the communist Yugoslav government, which saw in it a way to ward off Bulgarian influence in Vardar Macedonia, preclude potential territorial claims, and deal with pro-Bulgarian feelings among the population. Thus within Yugoslav Macedonia, the distinctness of Macedonian from Bulgarian was emphasized and the idea that B and M are dialects of a single language was something of a taboo, as it would undermine the distinctness of the Macedonian identity. Hopefully this goes some way in explaining the asymmetry. End aside.
I therefore would propose a wording in the spirit of: “These dialects have been classified as dialects of Macedonian or a common Bulgaro-Macedonian language variously referred to as Bulgaro-Macedonian, Macedo-Bulgarian, Bulgarian-Macedonian, or simply Bulgarian.” (or something along these lines). East South Slavic is already mentioned in the first sentence so do we want to mention it again? (btw, I agree that South Slavic languages#Eastern group should be expanded). Also I'm not sure I recall which of the sources mentioned refers to the common Bulgaro-Macedonian language as “East South Slavic”. P.S. It's quite busy at work these days so I might take some time to respond. Tropcho ( talk) 23:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Option #2 was a pretty clear outcome of the RFC. We now merely have a dispute between two subtly different wordings for the second sentence of Education and language:
I have an interest in language politics but I am not a linguist. It seems to me that the RFC outcome is satisfied by the new first sentence, and that neither option for second sentence is helpful, since, as we say elsewhere The precise delimitation between these languages is fleeting and controversial. May I suggest that the entire sentence is deleted?
It might help readers to link the dialect continuum article somewhere in the paragraph.
-- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 12:43, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
I did mis-attribute a comment in my comment. Sorry and fixed. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 16:23, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
Probably none. Why don't you move this to the page for ethnic Macedonians living in Greece? I will show you few hundred self-declared Macedonians, despite the government pressure... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirev ( talk • contribs) 13:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:53, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
According to statements by Slavic speakers of Hellenic Macedonia, the language is also called "our own (language)" among the Slavic speakers: [3]. This needs to be noted in the article. Առմենիե ( talk) 04:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)