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There is a push to remove the usage of "North Macedonian" from Wikipedia by certain editors for ideological or personal reasons, and replace it with "Macedonian", even in geographical references where the reader has no way to know whether the reference is to the country or the region. I did what is often done in such cases, and, so as not to cause conflict with any editors, paraphrased the text so there is no need for "North Macedonian" to be used. But, because I was the one to do it and certain editors have a personal bias against me, it seems we are changing the stable version of the article in order to force adjectival forms everywhere, and have that form be "Macedonian" even where it makes no sense. -- Antondimak ( talk) 17:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I had to intervene and restore the last stable version
[1] as there is no
WP:CONSENSUS for the recent edits. If editors feel their edit is right, they should discuss it here and gain a new consensus before restoring these edits back to the article. Last, everyone is reminded that the article
Skopje falls under
WP:BALKANS discretionary sanctions and editors should avoid edit warring. Until the dispute is resolved, none should make further edits of this kind. Edit warring only weakens your positions; doesn't make them stronger. ---
❖ SilentResident ❖ (
talk ✉ |
contribs ✎) 04:19, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
The Venus Punica presented in the article dates back four centuries before the stated one, on the photo. It is dated in the second century BC (NOT AD) and this is the paper on this link provided (second page, second paragraph): http://periodica.fzf.ukim.edu.mk/fab/FAB_02_(2012)/FAB%2002.22.%20Ončevska%20Todorovska,%20M.%20-%20The%20Statue%20of%20Venus%20Pudica%20from%20Scupi.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnvss ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
The names section implies that the city acquired it's Slavic and Turkish variant from Proto-Albanian, the idea that Skopje comes from Proto Albanian is one fringe theory that is not accepted by anyone really. This is blatant POV pushing as the theory has a huge number of problems.
> It was adopted into the Slavic form following Proto-Albanian phonetic rules. Thus Scupi became "Skopje", and later "Üsküb" (Ottoman Turkish: اسكوب) for the Turks
This part also uses ( https://web.archive.org/web/20090512232543/http://www.skopje.gov.mk/EN/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=46) as a citation despite this citation not having any mention of Skopje coming from Scupi. This is pure and blatant pov pushing.
The difference between Škup and Skopje is immense but the difference between Aromanian and Greek Skopia/Scopia is far more similar which is a much more probable way in which slavic Skopje/Skopie developed than from Proto-Albanian considering Greek and Latin were the official languages of the Eastern Roman Empire, if both Skopje and Shkupi developed from the same proto language the similarities would be far higher. There is no need for pushing fringe unaccepted theories in the naming section which imply the issue is settled which it is not.
GoofyGoofyson (
talk) 22:27, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the latest version of this added to the article, I'm not able to find anything backing this in the limited preview available for Demiraj's book, so a quote would be helpful. The other source is a dissertation and I don't find the wording so explicit that Shkupi came *directly* from Scupi, just slightly confusing use of "<" and then that the best explanation is the phonological developments of Albanian. -- Local hero talk 02:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello. I am skeptical of the Ottoman defter information (from Kristaq Prifti in Studime Historike) just added to the article. Are there really no Turks recorded in the data? I find that very hard to believe. -- Local hero talk 20:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sourcesThe sources used for the name section are tertiary, generic guide books which contradict linguistic bibliography. I replaced them with Ivan Duridanov's Hydronymy of the Vardar Basin. It is considered to be a classic textbook in toponymy of the region. If there are other linguistic sources which support something different than Duridanov they can be added as well.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Of their early history , next to nothing has been recorded ; nor have they attracted due attention from the scholar or the excavator.3 Yet both , it will be argued , were surely legionary garrisons for a time in the reign of Augustus .(Syme 1999).-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:03, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Për të riprodhuar me korrektësi përmbajtjen e Defterit të Regjistrimit të vitit 1831, në këtë punim, popullsinë e kazasë së Shkupit dhe atë të Karadagut po i përshkruajmë veç nga njëra-tjetra. Por, meqë në defterët e tjerë, të cilët i përkasin po këtij regjistrimi të vitit 1831, Karadagu trajtohet si pjesë e kazasë së Shkupit, në përfundimet që janë nxjerr për popullsinë e përgjithshme të kazasë së Shkupit në vitet 30 është përfshirë edhe popullsia e Karadagut. Sipas Regjistrimit të vitit 1831 kazaja e Shkupit, kishte gjithsej 22 260 meshkuj, të ndarë në: 9 660 myslimanë, 11 700 të krishterë (raja), 900 romë. Popullsia e përgjithshme e kazasë së Shkupit sipas regjistrimit të vitit 1831 llogaritej në 44 520 frymë, të ndarë sipas përkatësisë etnike-fetare në këtë mënyrë: - 19 320 myslimanë shqiptarë (me një numër të vogël nëpunësish turq); - 23 400 të krishterë: shumica bullgarë-maqedonas, një pjesë serbë, katolikë shqiptarë e vllehë; - 1 800 romë. Popullsia e kazasë së Karadagut (Mali i Zi i Shkupit) sipas regjistrimit të vitit 1831: Sipas këtij regjistrimi, Karadagu, i klasifikuar si kaza më vete, kishte gjithsej 4 282 meshkuj, të ndarë në këtë mënyrë: - 2 722 ishin myslimanë; - 1 452 ishin të krishterë; - 108 romë. Popullsia e përgjithshme e kazasë së Karadagut arrinte në 8 564 frymë, të ndarë nga pikëpamja etnike-fetare në këtë mënyrë: - 5 444 myslimanë shqiptarë; - 2 904 të krishterë: bullgarë-maqedonas dhe katolikë shqiptarë; - 216 romë. If google translate provides any confusing translation, I can translate the relevant part manually.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:20, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
I don’t think you can designate a city with 483 mm per year on average, humid subtropical דולב חולב ( talk) 10:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Pjeter Mazreku reported in early 17th century (around 1620's or so I believe) that the town was mainly Muslim/Turk , and that these were of Albanian origin, the rest being Asiatic. And that it also contained some Jews, Serbs and some Greeks. The word 'Turk' was used as a word for a Muslim back then, didn't neccessarily imply an actual Turk. Same word he used for Prizren that it was inhabited by Turks/Muslims, who are mainly Albanians . TheCreatorOne ( talk) 10:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | Skopje has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the 1555 Skopje earthquake page were merged into Skopje on 9 September 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Index
|
|||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
There is a push to remove the usage of "North Macedonian" from Wikipedia by certain editors for ideological or personal reasons, and replace it with "Macedonian", even in geographical references where the reader has no way to know whether the reference is to the country or the region. I did what is often done in such cases, and, so as not to cause conflict with any editors, paraphrased the text so there is no need for "North Macedonian" to be used. But, because I was the one to do it and certain editors have a personal bias against me, it seems we are changing the stable version of the article in order to force adjectival forms everywhere, and have that form be "Macedonian" even where it makes no sense. -- Antondimak ( talk) 17:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I had to intervene and restore the last stable version
[1] as there is no
WP:CONSENSUS for the recent edits. If editors feel their edit is right, they should discuss it here and gain a new consensus before restoring these edits back to the article. Last, everyone is reminded that the article
Skopje falls under
WP:BALKANS discretionary sanctions and editors should avoid edit warring. Until the dispute is resolved, none should make further edits of this kind. Edit warring only weakens your positions; doesn't make them stronger. ---
❖ SilentResident ❖ (
talk ✉ |
contribs ✎) 04:19, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
The Venus Punica presented in the article dates back four centuries before the stated one, on the photo. It is dated in the second century BC (NOT AD) and this is the paper on this link provided (second page, second paragraph): http://periodica.fzf.ukim.edu.mk/fab/FAB_02_(2012)/FAB%2002.22.%20Ončevska%20Todorovska,%20M.%20-%20The%20Statue%20of%20Venus%20Pudica%20from%20Scupi.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnvss ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
The names section implies that the city acquired it's Slavic and Turkish variant from Proto-Albanian, the idea that Skopje comes from Proto Albanian is one fringe theory that is not accepted by anyone really. This is blatant POV pushing as the theory has a huge number of problems.
> It was adopted into the Slavic form following Proto-Albanian phonetic rules. Thus Scupi became "Skopje", and later "Üsküb" (Ottoman Turkish: اسكوب) for the Turks
This part also uses ( https://web.archive.org/web/20090512232543/http://www.skopje.gov.mk/EN/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=46) as a citation despite this citation not having any mention of Skopje coming from Scupi. This is pure and blatant pov pushing.
The difference between Škup and Skopje is immense but the difference between Aromanian and Greek Skopia/Scopia is far more similar which is a much more probable way in which slavic Skopje/Skopie developed than from Proto-Albanian considering Greek and Latin were the official languages of the Eastern Roman Empire, if both Skopje and Shkupi developed from the same proto language the similarities would be far higher. There is no need for pushing fringe unaccepted theories in the naming section which imply the issue is settled which it is not.
GoofyGoofyson (
talk) 22:27, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the latest version of this added to the article, I'm not able to find anything backing this in the limited preview available for Demiraj's book, so a quote would be helpful. The other source is a dissertation and I don't find the wording so explicit that Shkupi came *directly* from Scupi, just slightly confusing use of "<" and then that the best explanation is the phonological developments of Albanian. -- Local hero talk 02:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello. I am skeptical of the Ottoman defter information (from Kristaq Prifti in Studime Historike) just added to the article. Are there really no Turks recorded in the data? I find that very hard to believe. -- Local hero talk 20:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sourcesThe sources used for the name section are tertiary, generic guide books which contradict linguistic bibliography. I replaced them with Ivan Duridanov's Hydronymy of the Vardar Basin. It is considered to be a classic textbook in toponymy of the region. If there are other linguistic sources which support something different than Duridanov they can be added as well.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Of their early history , next to nothing has been recorded ; nor have they attracted due attention from the scholar or the excavator.3 Yet both , it will be argued , were surely legionary garrisons for a time in the reign of Augustus .(Syme 1999).-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:03, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
Për të riprodhuar me korrektësi përmbajtjen e Defterit të Regjistrimit të vitit 1831, në këtë punim, popullsinë e kazasë së Shkupit dhe atë të Karadagut po i përshkruajmë veç nga njëra-tjetra. Por, meqë në defterët e tjerë, të cilët i përkasin po këtij regjistrimi të vitit 1831, Karadagu trajtohet si pjesë e kazasë së Shkupit, në përfundimet që janë nxjerr për popullsinë e përgjithshme të kazasë së Shkupit në vitet 30 është përfshirë edhe popullsia e Karadagut. Sipas Regjistrimit të vitit 1831 kazaja e Shkupit, kishte gjithsej 22 260 meshkuj, të ndarë në: 9 660 myslimanë, 11 700 të krishterë (raja), 900 romë. Popullsia e përgjithshme e kazasë së Shkupit sipas regjistrimit të vitit 1831 llogaritej në 44 520 frymë, të ndarë sipas përkatësisë etnike-fetare në këtë mënyrë: - 19 320 myslimanë shqiptarë (me një numër të vogël nëpunësish turq); - 23 400 të krishterë: shumica bullgarë-maqedonas, një pjesë serbë, katolikë shqiptarë e vllehë; - 1 800 romë. Popullsia e kazasë së Karadagut (Mali i Zi i Shkupit) sipas regjistrimit të vitit 1831: Sipas këtij regjistrimi, Karadagu, i klasifikuar si kaza më vete, kishte gjithsej 4 282 meshkuj, të ndarë në këtë mënyrë: - 2 722 ishin myslimanë; - 1 452 ishin të krishterë; - 108 romë. Popullsia e përgjithshme e kazasë së Karadagut arrinte në 8 564 frymë, të ndarë nga pikëpamja etnike-fetare në këtë mënyrë: - 5 444 myslimanë shqiptarë; - 2 904 të krishterë: bullgarë-maqedonas dhe katolikë shqiptarë; - 216 romë. If google translate provides any confusing translation, I can translate the relevant part manually.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:20, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
I don’t think you can designate a city with 483 mm per year on average, humid subtropical דולב חולב ( talk) 10:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Pjeter Mazreku reported in early 17th century (around 1620's or so I believe) that the town was mainly Muslim/Turk , and that these were of Albanian origin, the rest being Asiatic. And that it also contained some Jews, Serbs and some Greeks. The word 'Turk' was used as a word for a Muslim back then, didn't neccessarily imply an actual Turk. Same word he used for Prizren that it was inhabited by Turks/Muslims, who are mainly Albanians . TheCreatorOne ( talk) 10:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)