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Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Why were my edits removed? I just don't understand, you just remove it without any reason. It also had sources AND the same sentences are on this page and this. If that many sources are not enough, I will give even more. MilosHaran ( talk) 18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
.... claim the national heroes of neighboring .... nations as their "own".. I also agree with Calthinus that text about Skanderbeg's Serb origin do not deserve a whole section. A couple of short proposed paragraphs can be placed in section about Skanderbeg's early life. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:20, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
" The guy fought and gave his life for a land called "Albania". That makes him Albanian'." What reliable source back this claim? FkpCascais ( talk) 16:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I am persuaded by Vargmali's source. Marin Barleti is his writing mentioned a Bulgarian tribe is Dibra area. [2] I think we should make changes to reflect WP:NPOV. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Jingby, Triballi ´s are more associated to Serbs than to Bulgarians. Milos, the best sources are the secundary sources from scholars. A secundary source from a historian analising some primary source has much more value than primary source being interpretd by ourselves. Just for you to know. FkpCascais ( talk) 19:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
There is enough information here or to any knowledgable person to permanently dispute this article factual accuracy. Please do not remove desputed untill you prove the claims in article with reliable sources (cannot be done obviously, simply because this can be clasified as 'fake history (fake news..)). 178.149.9.21 ( talk) 16:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
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help)
... however, just looking for the collection of sources gathered here, looks like the concerns were legit. FkpCascais ( talk) 21:20, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
In a totally unseen manner I want to adress you User:Resnjari, User:Calthinus and User:Ktrimi991 in all my respect. I will ask you one sincere question and I want you to erase it after reading it, if you feel so. The question is obviously about Skanderbeg. Here it goes:
How would you feel if you had an historical figure that existed in Serbia and was named Etrit, had brothers named Arlind, Amir and Arber, and sisters named Arbnora, Kujtime, Arbiona, Ana and Vera? That he was initially of Albanian Muslim faith, and that his grand-father faught for the Albanian medieval kingdom? That all his letters were written in Albanian or Latin, and that he fought Greeks which were Albanian enemies at the time (supposing so)? How woud you feel if this person was made-out as Serbian national hero, and nowadays all relation of him to Albania or Albanians was denied despite all obvious evidence? Oh, but he is not Etrit, he is Retrito, he is Napolitanian (some Napolitanian and fringe authors say so). Thus, his Albanian origin becomes confusing. Lets stick that he is Serbian.
Please delete this after reading. But just to make you know, I am against this modern-day tendency of showing like if Serbs and Albanians have some historical animosity. We dont. We were friends troughout the history and it was only at early 20th century that Vatican and Austria needed to prevent Serbia to access sea that they made us fight eachother. The truth is that we are brothers and we coexisted for long.
The white and the black double-headed eagle are two faces of one same coin. FkpCascais ( talk) 01:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
There are so many souces backing his Serbian origin than your removal of sourced content about it is disruptive. I will open a mediation for this. FkpCascais ( talk) 09:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The article need an overhaul. Its got all sorts of WP:PRIMARY everywhere (and content based on sources from the 19th century ! - WP:AGEMATTERS) and has a layout of original research. Its time to remove these and or replace it with secondary sources that mention certain aspects of the life of Skanderbeg. Resnjari ( talk) 12:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Sources that are old or unreliable can be included in a section (or article) on the "Historiography on Sk.".-- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
First, I don't see why the name in other languages should be given first in Albanian. Did he ever write his name in Albanian? This form of name appeared about 2 centuries after his death.
On the other hand, the Greek form of his surname appeared in some important Greek chronicles, mainly that of Laonikos Chalkokondyles, his contemporary. Some other late byzantine chronicographs simply ignored him, because he was not as an important figure as some claimed later. We had to wait till late 20th c. the monumental work of Oliver Schimt to learn that Skanderbeg was only partly accepted in his country, never won a major battle, and never ruled a city. Anyway, for the learned readers of WP, the Greek name is important. Obviously the latin Georgius Castrioti is a transliteration from the Greek. I added for the moment the original text of Chalkokondyles, and soon I will add some more modern sources citing the greek text of Chalkokondyles. Unfortunatelly, it is not easy to find a modern non-greek publication that cites the name in greek letters. This is one of the cases where the "primary sources" have to be used. We don't use any info from Chalkokondyles, other than the wording of the name, and this is not a problem. Regretably, some friends here insist on a pro-albanian POV and anti-slavic and anti-greek polemic.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Greeks are funny people ;D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.104.129.22 ( talk) 15:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the above. Otherwise some could think that anti-hellenism is only in my imagination.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 09:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Any opinion on the topic? The name in Greek should be there or not, and why?-- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
associated with Albania and Albanians) and nine (
read the whole article). I will create a matrix and present it here as soon as I have some more time.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
The memory of the Albanian national hero was maintained vividly among the Albanians of Italy, those who emigrated to Calabria and Sicily, following his death. Among them, "during the wedding dinner", wrote A. Smilari toward the end of the last century, "guns are fired on every side, and songs are chanted, which recall the dinners of Skenderbeg". And the afternoon of Easter day, "The men and women dance separately, singing poems which bring to memory Skenderbeg and the fall of Albania under Turkish rule." Living compactly in Christian territory, though in separate communities, the Italo-Albanians have preserved the songs about Skenderbeg and his exploits which their ancestors had brought from the mother country. Today one may even speak of the existence of a Skenderbeg cycle among them, if one takes into account also the songs on other Albanian heroes who surrounded him. Different, however, was the situation in Albania proper.....Resnjari ( talk) 23:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
The Greek chronicographers Laonikos Chalkokondyles, George Sphrantzes and Michael Critobulus are the first who mentioned Castriotis in their chronicles. Barletti in latin came almost a century later. Also, the Greeks produced an extended bibliography in Greek. Therefore, the name in Greek is of encyclopaedic interest. Don't worry. You don't "lose" him if the name is in Greek.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry Resnjari, but I don't have time to "study" whatever you are suggesting. Stete here clearly what you don't like. I transferred to the "Myth of Sk." the paragraph of Rama. You may delete it from here. Where are the "primary sources"? -- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Any explanation why the Albanian name is coming after the english? Is the english name a transliteration of the Albanian? Point to the appropriate rule please.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 13:49, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
MOS:BIO has an example: *Cleopatra VII Philopator (
Greek: Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ; 69 – August 12, 30 BC), known to history simply as Cleopatra, was the last active ruler of the
Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt ...
Have a look at Good Article
Alexander the Great, it begins with Alexander III of Macedon (
Greek: Αλέξανδρος Γ΄ ὁ Μακεδών; 20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as Alexander the Great
. Cheers mate.
Cinadon36 (
talk)
14:02, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
The example is irrelevant. Cleopatra was called Κλεοπάτρα and Alexander was called Αλέξανδρος by his compatriots, and these are their names in the primary sources. It is true, though, that their names are somewhat different in modern Albanian. Cheers.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 14:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Wait was scanderbeg married in St Mary's Church, Vau i Dejës? Or Adrenica monastery on the St Mary's Church, Vau i Dejës it says he was married there on his personal Wikipedia page it says he married in adrenica monastaery which one is it then? Gjondeda ( talk) 01:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
“major 2nd century Roman road). On April 21, 1451 in this monastery was celebrated the marriage of George Kastrioti with Andronika Arianiti. The archbishop of Kanina, Felix said the mess in the wedding in the presence of all the Albanian princes, members of the League of Lezhë and the ambassadors of the Kingdom of Naples, Republic of Venice, and Republic of Ragusa. This is mentioned first by A. Lorenzoni in 1940” from the Ardenica wiki page Now from the church of vau I dejes “It was the place where the national hero Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbeg married.” here’s some clarification Gjondeda ( talk) 01:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Nonsence! Sipahi is not a title.))))-- Удивленный1 ( talk) 13:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
No. He was taken to the Ottoman court as a hostage. There exists great difference between hostage and devshirme.-- Удивленный1 ( talk) 13:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Ever since a group of pro-Albanian editors took control over the article against Wikipedia:OWN, other editors have been strugling to edit and expand the article. Instances of such behavior can be observed in their inflexibility to accept changes backed by Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The problem is even greater giving the fact that the vesion they wrote and they prevent editors from changing or expanding, is unsouced. For someone fom outside things may not be clear, but, we are facing clear Albanian-POV pushing in which they tend to marginalise and gather all together all different theories of Skanderbeg origin, that way discrediting them all.
This revert is absolutelly unecceptable. Not only restores an unsourced claim (not even one source claims Skanderbeg was "possibly of Serbian or Bulgaian origin") but also prevents expanding each claim by itself.
Another, quite contentious aspect, is their addition of "possibly",. which is wrong, because most sources, as least for the Serbian origin claim, don´t use the expression of "possibility" neither any other expressing doubts. Lets see some of the sources backing up Skanderbegs Serbian origin theory:
These are just some of the first results I am finding and all in English. Would you now be kind and revert yourself so we can properly expand Serbian origin part? FkpCascais ( talk) 21:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
More sources:
Mu friend, I am adding sourced material which is missing. I will bring much more. FkpCascais ( talk) 22:37, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history): to weight different views and structure an article so as to avoid original research and synthesis the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:
Per above mentioned classification: Robert Elsie, who is an expert of Albanian issues claims in his Historical Dictionary of Albania, Volume 75 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Second edition, published by Academic publisher Scarecrow Press, recently (2010), ISBN 081087380X, p. 398 in the article on Skanderbeg himself:
That is NPOV and meets the criteria above. Jingiby ( talk) 07:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Can I suggest that a RfC is opened here. It pretty much looks there will be a snow closure, so this might be the simplest way to resolve this. Bilseric ( talk) 11:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I see no consensus on the view of a "pure Albanian" in the LEAD. After all, how can a person be just "Albanian" when his mother is not, at a time that "Albanian" was not an official nationality, and when he never claimed that he is of certain ethnicity? I think the LEAD should reflect modern views on the man.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Skylax30, Albanian was an official nationality in the same sense Serbian, Bulgarian or Hungarian was, there is enough documentation available that proves the existence of an Albanian "race", distinctive from that of its neighbors. The point you're trying to make is that the page should list him as half-serbian only because his mother might, and emphasis on might, have been of Serbian origin. Now, matter of fact is that in medieval time ancestry was determined solely by the paternal lineage, that is by the lineage of the father which we know is up for debate as well since Greeks and Serbs oh so love appropriation, but we will take as Albanian. The existence of an Albanian national consciousness, as well as Skanderbeg's self-identification as Albanian in the letter he sent to Giovanni Orsini, the Prince of Taranto, make it abundantly clear than his "serbian" side had little to no basis. These absolutely clear chauvinistic approaches to the question at hand, and the appropriation of history by the Serbs (which is as pathetic as listing Skanderbeg as a "pure Serb" in the Serbian wikipedia and holding it as a featured article) has no place on wikipedia and the renegades that sullen this site should all be blocked permanently. ArdenDem ( talk) 17:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
History has progressed a lot in the rest of the world. Shinasi Rama (2019): "[Albanian] intellectuals argued that Skanderbeg had done everything to save his nation and his people and, in his case, ethnicity and loyalty to the Albanian nation (that, of course, did not exist in the fifteenth century) had overriden loyalty to religion or self-interest." (in "Nation Failure, Ethnic Elites, and Balance of Power". Berlin, Springer, ISBN 978-3-030-05191-4. p. 94). Let's see if this article can catch up.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:39, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
To be clear once and for all. All the family was albanian and had orthodox names just like many albanians. John Kastrioti bought the tower in Hilandar as its sacred for christians and the name of the tower was Albanski Pirg called that by serbian monks themselves. John Muzaka is the first one to write about vojsava last name which was Tipalda and she was from Pollog a region even today inhabited by albanians and one of the regions where other confirmed albanian families were from like Gropa Noble House. John Muzaka wrote the book in 1510 and were memoirs from his father who fought alongside skanderbeg from the Noble Muzaka Family. Other members of the family were named Jela Angjelina just like skanderbeg sisters so this means those names are purely orthodox and Albanian. Because those were the common balkanic names after Dusan's empire. There are real time documents and im naming u barletti's and muzaka's mentionin many albanians with the name stanisha paul gion/giovanni/iuvan that are confirmed to be albanians(by mentioning the fact that they are not slavic) those are common orthodox names that orthodox albanians still use today. Names given by the church. And kastrioti were lords of mat which is one of the first autonomous albanian cities since arbanon principality 240 years before skanderbeg, so they were not surrounded by slavs even in dusan's empire this area was controlled by confirmed Albanian prince Karl Topia from the famous Topia Family. im saying are christian first not slavic names not everything thats slavs use are slavic. Anyway the moral of all this conversation it was that Skanderbeg Lord of Albania was Albanian as documented by both Barletti and Musachio. Arberesh people left albania when Skanderbeg died and still today they speak Albanian. So his family albanian from Mati and Sina. His people albanians. His vassals albanians except Crnojevici who were slavic. His priest Paulus Angelus (Pal Ëngjelli) wrote the earliest albanian baptist verse. "Une te paghesont nperemen te atit birit e spirtit seinjt" at the time when skanderbeg was still alive. Serbian side of the theory is in the names Jovan(which is used only on slavic versions) like Gion & Giovanni in the latin ones and there were many Gions in Albanian Noble Families. Just like Many Maras Jelas and Angelinas. Denissaliaj ( talk) 20:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
When we refer to him as Albanian we mean Arbanian just like the previous Principality of Arbanon and Muzaka,Topia,Gropa Family. If having orthodox names means that you are Slav might as well make every Medieval Albanian a Slav and erase all our heritage and language and call it a day. The Main Facts are from Marinus Barletti and Giovanni Musachi, so it can never be "called myth or propaganda" . On the Serbian Wiki Page it says that Skanderbeg is Serbian which Albanians claimed as their own which is fake and a Violation of what Wikipedia stands for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denissaliaj ( talk • contribs) 10:30, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
This is a well researched article but it fails to be objective about the historical figure and is written within the Albanian myth making tradition. The majority of the sources come from the national awakening and communist era or later authors who relied heavily on those works, which were written to foster Albanian national unity and national myth making. The article does not include anything from the Italian, Serbian or Greek writers, there is a long list of 19th century Greek literature which is ignored. The article is also biased and selective in its facts, any evidence non-conforming to the Albanian myth-making perspective is ignored, whilst even the smallest conforming evidence is disproportionately highlighted. I am not interested in national myth making but the real historical figure - in this regard the article fails.
Skanderbeg’s identity is disputed, which is understandable when you try to project modern national identities to historical figures who lived in a different time. This article should say he was a Byzantine nobleman, also why is he’s name written in the modern Albanian Language? He would have used the Greek language in his life time, both his names have Greek etymology, why not use Greek which would be the lingua franca of his region during that time.
Is there willingness to move towards a historically accurate Georgi Kastrioti, the Byzantine nobleman who fought the Ottoman Empire Wikipedia page which includes references from non-Albanian sources or are we happy to stay with the current Albanian myth-making figure Skanderbeg page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.197.202.179 ( talk) 00:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
There are no sources that name Skanderbeg or Kastrioti Family as "Byzantine" if you want the truth this is the truth as mythical as it may look to you. Denissaliaj ( talk) 16:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
The serbian theory is based only in the fact that Kastrioti family had Slavic names forgetting that those names are purely orthodox and its a period after Dusan's Empire. Also i saw other claim that Kastrioti got Fiefs from Dusan's Empire forgetting that this does not mean they are serbs. To be clear once and for all. All the family was albanian and had orthodox names just like many albanians. John Kastrioti bought the tower in Hilandar as its sacred for christians and the name of the tower was Albanski Pirg called that by serbian monks themselves. John Muzaka is the first one to write about vojsava last name which was Tipalda and she was from Pollog a region even today inhabited by albanians and one of the regions where other confirmed albanian families were from like Gropa Noble House. John Muzaka wrote the book in 1510 and were memoirs from his father who fought alongside skanderbeg from the Noble Muzaka Family. Other members of the family were named Jela Angjelina just like skanderbeg sisters so this means those names are purely orthodox and Albanian. Because those were the common balkanic names after Dusan's empire. There are real time documents and im naming u barletti's and muzaka's mentionin many albanians with the name stanisha paul gion/giovanni/iuvan that are confirmed to be albanians(by mentioning the fact that they are not slavic) those are common orthodox names that orthodox albanians still use today. Names given by the church. And kastrioti were lords of mat which is one of the first autonomous albanian cities since arbanon principality 240 years before skanderbeg, so they were not surrounded by slavs even in dusan's empire this area was controlled by confirmed Albanian prince Karl Topia from the famous Topia Family. im saying are christian first not slavic names not everything thats slavs use are slavic. Anyway the moral of all this conversation it was that Skanderbeg Lord of Albania was Albanian as documented by both Barletti and Musachio. Arberesh people left albania when Skanderbeg died and still today they speak Albanian. So his family albanian from Mati and Sina. His people albanians. His vassals albanians except Crnojevici who were slavic. His priest Paulus Angelus (Pal Ëngjelli) wrote the earliest albanian baptist verse. "Une te paghesont nperemen te atit birit e spirtit seinjt" at the time when skanderbeg was still alive. Serbian side of the theory is in the names Jovan(which is used only on slavic versions) like Gion & Giovanni in the latin ones and there were many Gions in Albanian Noble Families. Just like Many Maras Jelas and Angelinas. Denissaliaj ( talk) 20:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I dont want to change anything. I answered to the ones who want to use his name for political reasons with the justification of "serbian name". This is not a youtube comment section Denissaliaj ( talk) 16:39, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
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Skanderbeg was born on may the 6th and this page does not have it so i would recommend you guys to put it! Bush Master 64 ( talk) 20:02, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I should have noticed this earlier, but the lede says that both Skanderbeg's Rebellion was not nation-wide and the country was united under a single leader. I can see much of the country being united under a single leader, but not all, can someone check the source? Esszet ( talk) 22:40, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the following comment: "Skanderbeg's rebellion was not considered a general uprising of all Albanians because he did not gain support from Albanians in Venetian-controlled areas or in the recently subdued Ottoman-controlled south." The reasons I've removed it:
Because of this, I believe it's clear that the claim Albanians in the Ottoman-controlled South did not rise up is false, and as the comment regarding Venetian controlled territories is irrelevant, and the intent of the sentence appears to be viewing the war through the lense of modern ethnic uprisings, I have removed the sentence. Djks1 ( talk) 15:35, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
He wos not a Nobel or had eny part of serbia or Greece pls stop post miss informations do ur research right he wos albanian end pure blood albanian soo if u need real information u can talk with me. 185.56.250.90 ( talk) 17:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Skenderbeg has nothing to do with serbia region or Greek region . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janiprifti ( talk • contribs) 04:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
The page is a joke, starts with propaganda in trying to undermine skanderbe that he holds little and doesn't even mention how many battles he won and how nor any details.
Here how the rest describe in details https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Qelvsi_5E — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.227.72 ( talk) 03:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Jure Kastriotić was a Croatian nobleman from present day town Rama in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was born in catholic Croatian family. God bless this Croatian noble hero. ShkijaJanjevarOlujaVictim ( talk) 23:34, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
The Introduction contains the following sentence:
In 1444, with support from local nobles and the Catholic Church in Albania, a general council (generalis concilium) of Albanian aristocracy was held in the city of Lezhë (under Venetian control).
The Latin term generalis concilium is grammatically wrong as the noun concilium is a neuter. Therefore, the adjective generalis should turn into generale - correct would be generale concilium.-- 2001:9E8:4621:48E4:E94A:7AB1:A6C1:7E0D ( talk) 21:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
I’d suggest adding his name in Serbian (Đurađ Kastriot (Cyrillic: Ђурађ Кастриот)), to not upset anyone. If Italian and Latin is there, Serbian should be too. Hidontknow ( talk) 11:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
See the name sector. There are already all the variants written by different authors of different nationalities. Not in the lead. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Frank Bardhi (Franciscus Blancus) calls him "Georgio Ivanovich vulgo Scanderbegh". in "Georgius Castriotus Epirensis vulgo Scanderbeghi, Epirotarum Princeps ...", p. 40. In this book the form "Gierg" or similars does not appear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.74.59.89 ( talk) 17:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Father buried in ortodox monastry Hilandar, mother Vojislava born Brankovic, sisters Mara, Jelena broter Stanisa. How he can be hero of Albania when something like region, country or kingdom or and writen proof about albanian language dont exist from that time? 87.116.164.2 ( talk) 21:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
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I would like to add a painting of GKS made by Kole Idromeno aka the Albanian Michelangelo in 1890 and about its whereabouts. Source: http://www.panorama.com.al/te-pathenat-e-51-piktoreve-shqiptare-zbulohet-koleksioni/ Jansenbas1 ( talk) 05:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Why were my edits removed? I just don't understand, you just remove it without any reason. It also had sources AND the same sentences are on this page and this. If that many sources are not enough, I will give even more. MilosHaran ( talk) 18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
.... claim the national heroes of neighboring .... nations as their "own".. I also agree with Calthinus that text about Skanderbeg's Serb origin do not deserve a whole section. A couple of short proposed paragraphs can be placed in section about Skanderbeg's early life. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:20, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
" The guy fought and gave his life for a land called "Albania". That makes him Albanian'." What reliable source back this claim? FkpCascais ( talk) 16:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I am persuaded by Vargmali's source. Marin Barleti is his writing mentioned a Bulgarian tribe is Dibra area. [2] I think we should make changes to reflect WP:NPOV. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Jingby, Triballi ´s are more associated to Serbs than to Bulgarians. Milos, the best sources are the secundary sources from scholars. A secundary source from a historian analising some primary source has much more value than primary source being interpretd by ourselves. Just for you to know. FkpCascais ( talk) 19:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
There is enough information here or to any knowledgable person to permanently dispute this article factual accuracy. Please do not remove desputed untill you prove the claims in article with reliable sources (cannot be done obviously, simply because this can be clasified as 'fake history (fake news..)). 178.149.9.21 ( talk) 16:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url=
(
help)
... however, just looking for the collection of sources gathered here, looks like the concerns were legit. FkpCascais ( talk) 21:20, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
In a totally unseen manner I want to adress you User:Resnjari, User:Calthinus and User:Ktrimi991 in all my respect. I will ask you one sincere question and I want you to erase it after reading it, if you feel so. The question is obviously about Skanderbeg. Here it goes:
How would you feel if you had an historical figure that existed in Serbia and was named Etrit, had brothers named Arlind, Amir and Arber, and sisters named Arbnora, Kujtime, Arbiona, Ana and Vera? That he was initially of Albanian Muslim faith, and that his grand-father faught for the Albanian medieval kingdom? That all his letters were written in Albanian or Latin, and that he fought Greeks which were Albanian enemies at the time (supposing so)? How woud you feel if this person was made-out as Serbian national hero, and nowadays all relation of him to Albania or Albanians was denied despite all obvious evidence? Oh, but he is not Etrit, he is Retrito, he is Napolitanian (some Napolitanian and fringe authors say so). Thus, his Albanian origin becomes confusing. Lets stick that he is Serbian.
Please delete this after reading. But just to make you know, I am against this modern-day tendency of showing like if Serbs and Albanians have some historical animosity. We dont. We were friends troughout the history and it was only at early 20th century that Vatican and Austria needed to prevent Serbia to access sea that they made us fight eachother. The truth is that we are brothers and we coexisted for long.
The white and the black double-headed eagle are two faces of one same coin. FkpCascais ( talk) 01:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
There are so many souces backing his Serbian origin than your removal of sourced content about it is disruptive. I will open a mediation for this. FkpCascais ( talk) 09:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The article need an overhaul. Its got all sorts of WP:PRIMARY everywhere (and content based on sources from the 19th century ! - WP:AGEMATTERS) and has a layout of original research. Its time to remove these and or replace it with secondary sources that mention certain aspects of the life of Skanderbeg. Resnjari ( talk) 12:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Sources that are old or unreliable can be included in a section (or article) on the "Historiography on Sk.".-- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
First, I don't see why the name in other languages should be given first in Albanian. Did he ever write his name in Albanian? This form of name appeared about 2 centuries after his death.
On the other hand, the Greek form of his surname appeared in some important Greek chronicles, mainly that of Laonikos Chalkokondyles, his contemporary. Some other late byzantine chronicographs simply ignored him, because he was not as an important figure as some claimed later. We had to wait till late 20th c. the monumental work of Oliver Schimt to learn that Skanderbeg was only partly accepted in his country, never won a major battle, and never ruled a city. Anyway, for the learned readers of WP, the Greek name is important. Obviously the latin Georgius Castrioti is a transliteration from the Greek. I added for the moment the original text of Chalkokondyles, and soon I will add some more modern sources citing the greek text of Chalkokondyles. Unfortunatelly, it is not easy to find a modern non-greek publication that cites the name in greek letters. This is one of the cases where the "primary sources" have to be used. We don't use any info from Chalkokondyles, other than the wording of the name, and this is not a problem. Regretably, some friends here insist on a pro-albanian POV and anti-slavic and anti-greek polemic.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Greeks are funny people ;D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.104.129.22 ( talk) 15:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the above. Otherwise some could think that anti-hellenism is only in my imagination.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 09:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Any opinion on the topic? The name in Greek should be there or not, and why?-- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
associated with Albania and Albanians) and nine (
read the whole article). I will create a matrix and present it here as soon as I have some more time.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
The memory of the Albanian national hero was maintained vividly among the Albanians of Italy, those who emigrated to Calabria and Sicily, following his death. Among them, "during the wedding dinner", wrote A. Smilari toward the end of the last century, "guns are fired on every side, and songs are chanted, which recall the dinners of Skenderbeg". And the afternoon of Easter day, "The men and women dance separately, singing poems which bring to memory Skenderbeg and the fall of Albania under Turkish rule." Living compactly in Christian territory, though in separate communities, the Italo-Albanians have preserved the songs about Skenderbeg and his exploits which their ancestors had brought from the mother country. Today one may even speak of the existence of a Skenderbeg cycle among them, if one takes into account also the songs on other Albanian heroes who surrounded him. Different, however, was the situation in Albania proper.....Resnjari ( talk) 23:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
The Greek chronicographers Laonikos Chalkokondyles, George Sphrantzes and Michael Critobulus are the first who mentioned Castriotis in their chronicles. Barletti in latin came almost a century later. Also, the Greeks produced an extended bibliography in Greek. Therefore, the name in Greek is of encyclopaedic interest. Don't worry. You don't "lose" him if the name is in Greek.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry Resnjari, but I don't have time to "study" whatever you are suggesting. Stete here clearly what you don't like. I transferred to the "Myth of Sk." the paragraph of Rama. You may delete it from here. Where are the "primary sources"? -- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Any explanation why the Albanian name is coming after the english? Is the english name a transliteration of the Albanian? Point to the appropriate rule please.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 13:49, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
MOS:BIO has an example: *Cleopatra VII Philopator (
Greek: Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ; 69 – August 12, 30 BC), known to history simply as Cleopatra, was the last active ruler of the
Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt ...
Have a look at Good Article
Alexander the Great, it begins with Alexander III of Macedon (
Greek: Αλέξανδρος Γ΄ ὁ Μακεδών; 20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as Alexander the Great
. Cheers mate.
Cinadon36 (
talk)
14:02, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
The example is irrelevant. Cleopatra was called Κλεοπάτρα and Alexander was called Αλέξανδρος by his compatriots, and these are their names in the primary sources. It is true, though, that their names are somewhat different in modern Albanian. Cheers.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 14:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Wait was scanderbeg married in St Mary's Church, Vau i Dejës? Or Adrenica monastery on the St Mary's Church, Vau i Dejës it says he was married there on his personal Wikipedia page it says he married in adrenica monastaery which one is it then? Gjondeda ( talk) 01:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
“major 2nd century Roman road). On April 21, 1451 in this monastery was celebrated the marriage of George Kastrioti with Andronika Arianiti. The archbishop of Kanina, Felix said the mess in the wedding in the presence of all the Albanian princes, members of the League of Lezhë and the ambassadors of the Kingdom of Naples, Republic of Venice, and Republic of Ragusa. This is mentioned first by A. Lorenzoni in 1940” from the Ardenica wiki page Now from the church of vau I dejes “It was the place where the national hero Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbeg married.” here’s some clarification Gjondeda ( talk) 01:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Nonsence! Sipahi is not a title.))))-- Удивленный1 ( talk) 13:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
No. He was taken to the Ottoman court as a hostage. There exists great difference between hostage and devshirme.-- Удивленный1 ( talk) 13:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Ever since a group of pro-Albanian editors took control over the article against Wikipedia:OWN, other editors have been strugling to edit and expand the article. Instances of such behavior can be observed in their inflexibility to accept changes backed by Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The problem is even greater giving the fact that the vesion they wrote and they prevent editors from changing or expanding, is unsouced. For someone fom outside things may not be clear, but, we are facing clear Albanian-POV pushing in which they tend to marginalise and gather all together all different theories of Skanderbeg origin, that way discrediting them all.
This revert is absolutelly unecceptable. Not only restores an unsourced claim (not even one source claims Skanderbeg was "possibly of Serbian or Bulgaian origin") but also prevents expanding each claim by itself.
Another, quite contentious aspect, is their addition of "possibly",. which is wrong, because most sources, as least for the Serbian origin claim, don´t use the expression of "possibility" neither any other expressing doubts. Lets see some of the sources backing up Skanderbegs Serbian origin theory:
These are just some of the first results I am finding and all in English. Would you now be kind and revert yourself so we can properly expand Serbian origin part? FkpCascais ( talk) 21:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
More sources:
Mu friend, I am adding sourced material which is missing. I will bring much more. FkpCascais ( talk) 22:37, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history): to weight different views and structure an article so as to avoid original research and synthesis the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:
Per above mentioned classification: Robert Elsie, who is an expert of Albanian issues claims in his Historical Dictionary of Albania, Volume 75 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Second edition, published by Academic publisher Scarecrow Press, recently (2010), ISBN 081087380X, p. 398 in the article on Skanderbeg himself:
That is NPOV and meets the criteria above. Jingiby ( talk) 07:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Can I suggest that a RfC is opened here. It pretty much looks there will be a snow closure, so this might be the simplest way to resolve this. Bilseric ( talk) 11:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I see no consensus on the view of a "pure Albanian" in the LEAD. After all, how can a person be just "Albanian" when his mother is not, at a time that "Albanian" was not an official nationality, and when he never claimed that he is of certain ethnicity? I think the LEAD should reflect modern views on the man.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 12:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Skylax30, Albanian was an official nationality in the same sense Serbian, Bulgarian or Hungarian was, there is enough documentation available that proves the existence of an Albanian "race", distinctive from that of its neighbors. The point you're trying to make is that the page should list him as half-serbian only because his mother might, and emphasis on might, have been of Serbian origin. Now, matter of fact is that in medieval time ancestry was determined solely by the paternal lineage, that is by the lineage of the father which we know is up for debate as well since Greeks and Serbs oh so love appropriation, but we will take as Albanian. The existence of an Albanian national consciousness, as well as Skanderbeg's self-identification as Albanian in the letter he sent to Giovanni Orsini, the Prince of Taranto, make it abundantly clear than his "serbian" side had little to no basis. These absolutely clear chauvinistic approaches to the question at hand, and the appropriation of history by the Serbs (which is as pathetic as listing Skanderbeg as a "pure Serb" in the Serbian wikipedia and holding it as a featured article) has no place on wikipedia and the renegades that sullen this site should all be blocked permanently. ArdenDem ( talk) 17:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
History has progressed a lot in the rest of the world. Shinasi Rama (2019): "[Albanian] intellectuals argued that Skanderbeg had done everything to save his nation and his people and, in his case, ethnicity and loyalty to the Albanian nation (that, of course, did not exist in the fifteenth century) had overriden loyalty to religion or self-interest." (in "Nation Failure, Ethnic Elites, and Balance of Power". Berlin, Springer, ISBN 978-3-030-05191-4. p. 94). Let's see if this article can catch up.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:39, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
To be clear once and for all. All the family was albanian and had orthodox names just like many albanians. John Kastrioti bought the tower in Hilandar as its sacred for christians and the name of the tower was Albanski Pirg called that by serbian monks themselves. John Muzaka is the first one to write about vojsava last name which was Tipalda and she was from Pollog a region even today inhabited by albanians and one of the regions where other confirmed albanian families were from like Gropa Noble House. John Muzaka wrote the book in 1510 and were memoirs from his father who fought alongside skanderbeg from the Noble Muzaka Family. Other members of the family were named Jela Angjelina just like skanderbeg sisters so this means those names are purely orthodox and Albanian. Because those were the common balkanic names after Dusan's empire. There are real time documents and im naming u barletti's and muzaka's mentionin many albanians with the name stanisha paul gion/giovanni/iuvan that are confirmed to be albanians(by mentioning the fact that they are not slavic) those are common orthodox names that orthodox albanians still use today. Names given by the church. And kastrioti were lords of mat which is one of the first autonomous albanian cities since arbanon principality 240 years before skanderbeg, so they were not surrounded by slavs even in dusan's empire this area was controlled by confirmed Albanian prince Karl Topia from the famous Topia Family. im saying are christian first not slavic names not everything thats slavs use are slavic. Anyway the moral of all this conversation it was that Skanderbeg Lord of Albania was Albanian as documented by both Barletti and Musachio. Arberesh people left albania when Skanderbeg died and still today they speak Albanian. So his family albanian from Mati and Sina. His people albanians. His vassals albanians except Crnojevici who were slavic. His priest Paulus Angelus (Pal Ëngjelli) wrote the earliest albanian baptist verse. "Une te paghesont nperemen te atit birit e spirtit seinjt" at the time when skanderbeg was still alive. Serbian side of the theory is in the names Jovan(which is used only on slavic versions) like Gion & Giovanni in the latin ones and there were many Gions in Albanian Noble Families. Just like Many Maras Jelas and Angelinas. Denissaliaj ( talk) 20:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
When we refer to him as Albanian we mean Arbanian just like the previous Principality of Arbanon and Muzaka,Topia,Gropa Family. If having orthodox names means that you are Slav might as well make every Medieval Albanian a Slav and erase all our heritage and language and call it a day. The Main Facts are from Marinus Barletti and Giovanni Musachi, so it can never be "called myth or propaganda" . On the Serbian Wiki Page it says that Skanderbeg is Serbian which Albanians claimed as their own which is fake and a Violation of what Wikipedia stands for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denissaliaj ( talk • contribs) 10:30, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
This is a well researched article but it fails to be objective about the historical figure and is written within the Albanian myth making tradition. The majority of the sources come from the national awakening and communist era or later authors who relied heavily on those works, which were written to foster Albanian national unity and national myth making. The article does not include anything from the Italian, Serbian or Greek writers, there is a long list of 19th century Greek literature which is ignored. The article is also biased and selective in its facts, any evidence non-conforming to the Albanian myth-making perspective is ignored, whilst even the smallest conforming evidence is disproportionately highlighted. I am not interested in national myth making but the real historical figure - in this regard the article fails.
Skanderbeg’s identity is disputed, which is understandable when you try to project modern national identities to historical figures who lived in a different time. This article should say he was a Byzantine nobleman, also why is he’s name written in the modern Albanian Language? He would have used the Greek language in his life time, both his names have Greek etymology, why not use Greek which would be the lingua franca of his region during that time.
Is there willingness to move towards a historically accurate Georgi Kastrioti, the Byzantine nobleman who fought the Ottoman Empire Wikipedia page which includes references from non-Albanian sources or are we happy to stay with the current Albanian myth-making figure Skanderbeg page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.197.202.179 ( talk) 00:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
There are no sources that name Skanderbeg or Kastrioti Family as "Byzantine" if you want the truth this is the truth as mythical as it may look to you. Denissaliaj ( talk) 16:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
The serbian theory is based only in the fact that Kastrioti family had Slavic names forgetting that those names are purely orthodox and its a period after Dusan's Empire. Also i saw other claim that Kastrioti got Fiefs from Dusan's Empire forgetting that this does not mean they are serbs. To be clear once and for all. All the family was albanian and had orthodox names just like many albanians. John Kastrioti bought the tower in Hilandar as its sacred for christians and the name of the tower was Albanski Pirg called that by serbian monks themselves. John Muzaka is the first one to write about vojsava last name which was Tipalda and she was from Pollog a region even today inhabited by albanians and one of the regions where other confirmed albanian families were from like Gropa Noble House. John Muzaka wrote the book in 1510 and were memoirs from his father who fought alongside skanderbeg from the Noble Muzaka Family. Other members of the family were named Jela Angjelina just like skanderbeg sisters so this means those names are purely orthodox and Albanian. Because those were the common balkanic names after Dusan's empire. There are real time documents and im naming u barletti's and muzaka's mentionin many albanians with the name stanisha paul gion/giovanni/iuvan that are confirmed to be albanians(by mentioning the fact that they are not slavic) those are common orthodox names that orthodox albanians still use today. Names given by the church. And kastrioti were lords of mat which is one of the first autonomous albanian cities since arbanon principality 240 years before skanderbeg, so they were not surrounded by slavs even in dusan's empire this area was controlled by confirmed Albanian prince Karl Topia from the famous Topia Family. im saying are christian first not slavic names not everything thats slavs use are slavic. Anyway the moral of all this conversation it was that Skanderbeg Lord of Albania was Albanian as documented by both Barletti and Musachio. Arberesh people left albania when Skanderbeg died and still today they speak Albanian. So his family albanian from Mati and Sina. His people albanians. His vassals albanians except Crnojevici who were slavic. His priest Paulus Angelus (Pal Ëngjelli) wrote the earliest albanian baptist verse. "Une te paghesont nperemen te atit birit e spirtit seinjt" at the time when skanderbeg was still alive. Serbian side of the theory is in the names Jovan(which is used only on slavic versions) like Gion & Giovanni in the latin ones and there were many Gions in Albanian Noble Families. Just like Many Maras Jelas and Angelinas. Denissaliaj ( talk) 20:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I dont want to change anything. I answered to the ones who want to use his name for political reasons with the justification of "serbian name". This is not a youtube comment section Denissaliaj ( talk) 16:39, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
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Skanderbeg was born on may the 6th and this page does not have it so i would recommend you guys to put it! Bush Master 64 ( talk) 20:02, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I should have noticed this earlier, but the lede says that both Skanderbeg's Rebellion was not nation-wide and the country was united under a single leader. I can see much of the country being united under a single leader, but not all, can someone check the source? Esszet ( talk) 22:40, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the following comment: "Skanderbeg's rebellion was not considered a general uprising of all Albanians because he did not gain support from Albanians in Venetian-controlled areas or in the recently subdued Ottoman-controlled south." The reasons I've removed it:
Because of this, I believe it's clear that the claim Albanians in the Ottoman-controlled South did not rise up is false, and as the comment regarding Venetian controlled territories is irrelevant, and the intent of the sentence appears to be viewing the war through the lense of modern ethnic uprisings, I have removed the sentence. Djks1 ( talk) 15:35, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
He wos not a Nobel or had eny part of serbia or Greece pls stop post miss informations do ur research right he wos albanian end pure blood albanian soo if u need real information u can talk with me. 185.56.250.90 ( talk) 17:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Skenderbeg has nothing to do with serbia region or Greek region . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janiprifti ( talk • contribs) 04:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
The page is a joke, starts with propaganda in trying to undermine skanderbe that he holds little and doesn't even mention how many battles he won and how nor any details.
Here how the rest describe in details https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Qelvsi_5E — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.227.72 ( talk) 03:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Jure Kastriotić was a Croatian nobleman from present day town Rama in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was born in catholic Croatian family. God bless this Croatian noble hero. ShkijaJanjevarOlujaVictim ( talk) 23:34, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
The Introduction contains the following sentence:
In 1444, with support from local nobles and the Catholic Church in Albania, a general council (generalis concilium) of Albanian aristocracy was held in the city of Lezhë (under Venetian control).
The Latin term generalis concilium is grammatically wrong as the noun concilium is a neuter. Therefore, the adjective generalis should turn into generale - correct would be generale concilium.-- 2001:9E8:4621:48E4:E94A:7AB1:A6C1:7E0D ( talk) 21:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
I’d suggest adding his name in Serbian (Đurađ Kastriot (Cyrillic: Ђурађ Кастриот)), to not upset anyone. If Italian and Latin is there, Serbian should be too. Hidontknow ( talk) 11:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
See the name sector. There are already all the variants written by different authors of different nationalities. Not in the lead. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Frank Bardhi (Franciscus Blancus) calls him "Georgio Ivanovich vulgo Scanderbegh". in "Georgius Castriotus Epirensis vulgo Scanderbeghi, Epirotarum Princeps ...", p. 40. In this book the form "Gierg" or similars does not appear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.74.59.89 ( talk) 17:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Father buried in ortodox monastry Hilandar, mother Vojislava born Brankovic, sisters Mara, Jelena broter Stanisa. How he can be hero of Albania when something like region, country or kingdom or and writen proof about albanian language dont exist from that time? 87.116.164.2 ( talk) 21:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
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I would like to add a painting of GKS made by Kole Idromeno aka the Albanian Michelangelo in 1890 and about its whereabouts. Source: http://www.panorama.com.al/te-pathenat-e-51-piktoreve-shqiptare-zbulohet-koleksioni/ Jansenbas1 ( talk) 05:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)