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Sistine Chapel ceiling was one of the Art and architecture good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Removed request for more images of spandrels, because there was only one. There are now four. -- Amandajm 13:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Some time ago (a year or two, perhaps) this article stated a well-known fact, that Michelangelo was in a sort of flow state or "in the zone" while painting la volta della Capella Sistina. I could not find this assertion upon reading the article again as of 20 of January, 2012. I wonder why would that be removed from the article, being that it is not only interesting but highly relevant for the psychology of arts. Anyone with sources is welcome to add that bit about Michelangelo's flow state again to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.113.201.87 ( talk) 01:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
This page has contained one major and several lesser errors from the outset. I'm going to have to rewrite that which is seriously inaccurate, and correct the lesser errors.
The diagram needs fixing as well. Can someone with the skills to do it please contact me! -- Amandajm 00:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry about the diagram. It's been replaced. -- Amandajm 07:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought... isn't creating images of god a sin in christianity? Could somebody clarify why the church would allow pictures of god on the ceiling of a chapel? 81.221.166.31 13:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The creation of an image for the purpose of education, enlightenment or enjoyment is not seen as sinful. The sin comes in if the object is then worshipped.
The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is admired, but it's certainly not worshipped, so this doen't constitute a problem. Rigth through the history of the Christian church, probably starting in the Catacombs outside Rome, the painting of figures representing Christian subjects has been common. In the earliest times Jesus was usually depicted in the guise of a Roman shepherd, with a sheep across his shoulders, because he said "I am the Good Shepherd." (Referring to Psalm 23, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall want for nothing, he leads me into the green pastures and beside the quiet waters."
In the Dark Ages, when few people could read, painted pictures were a way of reminding the illiterate of the Bible stories. Scenes of the Creation and Adam and Eve were common. So were pictures of the Day of Judgement. They were to inform, and to warn. They were not to worship.
The problem arises with so called objects of veneration. If a picture or a statue becomes something that is used by a Christian to help them focus their attention while praying, or to contemplate on a religiious subject, the Suffering of Jesus for example. Then a grey area is reached where the object itself can take on mystical significance.
In the Greek Orthodox Church, this brought about a revolution in the 8th century when people were forbidden to have religious paintings. Thousands were destroyed. Very few remain from before 800AD.
But this ruling was overturned. It has been very common in the Catholic Church to pray before statues. It doesn't mean that the statue is worshipped. But quite frequently it is claimed that the image itself is miraculous because Christ, or more frequently, the Virgin Mary, is working through the statue.
While on one hand, some healings seem miraculous, I don't think that an image is the thing that has brought it about. None-the-less, some of these images, The Miraculous Virgin of Guadalupo and the Holy Infant of Prague for example, are so popular that they are reproduced in plaster and can be found in countless churches, with candles and flowers in front of them.
To a member of a Reformed church (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian etc) this is all quite problematic and is part of the reason that these churches broke away from Rome.
But as for the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. No, it hhas never caused controversy in Christianity abbout the depiction of God, as far as I know. What got people really up-in-arms was the depiction of the Virgin Mary naked on the Day of Judgement.
Michelangelo's Pieta is another matter. Before it was put behind an armour-plate window, the faithful were able to touch the bleeding feet of Christ. People would weep when they saw it. (There's a wiki article about this sort of thing at Stendahl Syndrome, it's not just the religios feeling, it's also the beauty of the statue which causes this to happen). Anyway, an Hungarian Australian by the name of Lazlo Toft, a devout Christian, tried to smash it up with a hammer for this reason. He was gaoled, of course. And the Pope (unfortunately) said "He must be punished for damaging a work of religious veneration". The Pope had no understanding of Toft's righteous and fanatical religious feeling.
I, personally, see most Christian art as a wonderful way of introducing people to a greater knowledge of Christian faith, because i am, myself a Christian.
-- Amandajm 03:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Should there be a small section on the restoration in the 80's? Perhaps. -- Kansaikiwi 12:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I think pope is lower case unless it comes right before the name of the pope (Pope Sixtus IV, the pope).
-- Amandajm 18:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
When I was a young school kid (circa 1991, I guess), I remember sitting in class and watching a news report on Channel One claiming that as part of the ceiling restoration, they were soon going to be painting clothing onto some/all (can't remember) of the currently-nude people in the paintings. They showed "artist's renderings" of the pending changes for a few sections of the ceiling, with all the former nude people now wrapped up in cloth like Jesus wears in traditional crucifixion paintings (like this one. I was only 11-ish at the time but I was outraged that they would do something so horrible and ridiculous; plus the "edits" looked obvious and awful. I can't remember much about the news report (it was ~15 years ago and I was in elementary school), but they made out like the decision had already been made and the censorship was going to be done to the ceiling in the near future. Never having heard otherwise, I've been upset and angry about it ever since then, not just about the defilement of such a famous artwork, but also about people's apparant apathy and ignorance because I never saw any other coverage or protests about the censorship.
But I just recently checked several Wikipedia articles, and I can't find any reference that this ever actually happened! Did it? The article mentions controversy about cleaning the grime from the ceiling, but it says nothing about painting clothing on the nude figures, which would surely be a hundred times as controversial!
If it never happened, then what was the deal with that news report I saw circa 1991? Were there originally plans to conceal the nudity that were later (thankfully) abandoned? Who drew the awful "updated version" that I saw on the news? Or is my memory completely faulty, and maybe I've confused the Sistine Chapel with some other work of art that was being subjected to a censorship restoration?
4.89.247.77 02:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just rewritten most of this article. With regards to links, I know that there are people out there who want everything linked every time and spend a lot of time doing it.
I haven't chosen to do that here. Terms that are used repeatedly do not require a link every time. Michelangelo is linked at the beginning. So are other important words and names like Pope Julius II, Vasari, Ignudi, Creation etc. Subsequently, they are not linked every time they are mentioned, in order to make other significant links readily apparent.
-- Amandajm 04:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Before "tightening up" well-written prose, one needs to consider what one is cutting.
A sentence that said that "War broke out" became linked by a colon to the fact that the Pope's tomb sculptures were not finished. No!. That isn't what was either written or implied. The war was not the reason that the sculptures weren't finished.
-- Amandajm 14:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
It's pretty good, and I felt it worthy of GA. The automated peer review suggests:
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 2 metres, use 2 metres, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 2 metres.
[?]I realize that's quite a bit but a lot of those are minor, and while I strongly suggest addressing them, I don't feel they're reason to not pass it as GA. Dooms Day349 17:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Anthony Bertram discusses this as a hidden layer in the meanings of these works and notes that "The principle opposed forces in this conflict were his passionate admiration for classical beauty and his profound, almost mystical Catholicism, his homosexuality, and his horror of carnal sin combined with a lofty Platonic concept of love."
I've editted out the reference to dualism in the Ancestors and the depressed state of the "religious figures".
I think that Bertram's interpretation is much too narrow in seeing this as reflecting Michelangelo's own personal conflict about one personal matter. I think that Bertram has greatly underestimated the depth of Michelangelo's knowledge of Theology and the power of his creativity as a story-teller. If you read this whole article again you will (perhaps) understand why.
The thing that should be noted is that the subject of the whole ceiling (and the ancestor paintings) is Sin. And accompanying the Sin are Grief, Guilt, Fear, Rage, Resentment, Depression, Hopelessness, Loneliness, Physical Illness and all those other horrible things that are part of the human state. If you look hard at the Ancestors, you'll find your own particular sin there among them. Most of them are either in a state of conflict with their partner or are as focussed on themselves as Narcissus was. Paranoia, Vanity, Spite, Envy, Lust, Avarice, Partiality and so on.
As for the anguished faces of the actors in the narrative panels, they relate directly to the subject matter. Of course Adam and Eve look distraught at being put out of Eden! And of course the people in the Flood painting appear in a state of fear and distress. This is not about Mchelangelo the guilty homosexual. This is about Michelangelo the brilliant story-teller.
And the expressions of the prophets, they relate closely to their particular prophecies. Jeremiah looks particularly distressed. He is one of the so-called "Major Prophets" and his subject was the downfall of Jerulsalem. His second book is called "Lamentations".
Personally, when I look at the ignudi around the ceiling, I don't see any sign whatsoever of guilt over the admiration of the human body. And wherever men and women occur together on the ceiling we see them relating to each other in an intimate and natural way.
-- Amandajm 14:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
In Christian teaching, Sin is a given. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Sin is the whole reason that humankind needed the Salvation provided by Jesus Christ. Sin starts with Adam and Eve.
What Michelangelo has done is provide a background to the Old Covenant between God and the Jewish people through Moses and the New Covenant between God and all humanity through Christ. The way he has done it is very thoughtful and clever. If he had shown all those ancestors as happy well-adjusted people living "Godly" lives, then salvation through Jesus would not have been necessary. So he shows them as normal, squabbling, selfish people. This is the whole reason why th ceiling is about Sin. The Last Judgement picture picks up the theme again.
There is yet another element in the total scheme of the chapel. It is not a painted element. It is the Holy Sacrament of Bread and Wine, representing the continuing presence of the Living Christ. Because of the presence of the sacrament, Michelangelo didn't have to paint anything to represent Christ's incarnation or sacrifice. So the existent fresco of the Birth of Jesus was painted over.
If you look at the content and expression from a purely Theological point of view, then the whole scheme of the Chapel is drawn together in such a dynamic way by Michelangelo's ceiling that the notion that it might be all about his personal angst gets swamped by an all-embracing and magnificent concept.
-- Amandajm 15:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
(discussion transferred from another page) The final (First day of Creation) image is surely Michelangelo himself, working on the ceiling in the supreme act of creation. I found a website the other day that supported this vview, but I've lost it. The beard is shorter, the face is almost hidden, the figure is workingg above his head.
As for God creating the Earth, Sun and Moon, the wrathful God has mmuch in common with the Moses for Pope Julius' tomb. It has been said before that Michelangelo represented the Pope as God. Well, if so, it's an image more in keeping with the man who said "Show me with a sword; I know nothing of books!"
As for the creation of Adam, there's much more of a benvolence in that picture. I've always loved the hand of God which is so square and capabable but hhas delicate fingertips. Its the hand of a man who not only pounded the clay and modelled it to make the man but who also wired the circuits of his brain.
There's been a study done on Michelangelo's David which indicates that he was almost certainly a stone mason. Several of the models on the ceiling have similar characteristics. What we see in the forearm of Michelangelo's God is the massive development consistent with using a hammer and chisel, in particular the bulge just near the wrist which is the abductor pollicus longus which brings the hand forward in relation to the forearm and is used when hammering in a controlled way (cobbler's tacks as against six inch nails). I'm sure we are looking at Michelangelo's own arm here. But I can't really say this, can I? I'm sure it falls under the category of original research!
In quite a lot of late Medieval/Early Renaissance images there is no distinction between God the Creator and God Incarnate so that when God is shown in the Creation stories, he looks just like Jesus in the Redemption episodes, the only difference being that he is often given a triangular halo as against Jesus' triple-rayed halo which symbolises the cross as well as the Trinity. God appears like this in the frescoes at San Gimigniano. There is another picture of the Trinity somewhere... I think a Jesuit statement...which shows the triune God as three identical Jesus-persons all enthroned side-by-side. Rather intimidating -- Amandajm 02:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
wtf. bubble speech from god saying hahaha? thats photoshopped. someone take it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.30.134 ( talk) 18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad Lady CdB didn't see that one! Amandajm 10:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone added this unsouurce statement to the article, with regards to the "Creation of Adam":
The problem with this statement is that its writer presumes that the two interpretations are mutually exclusive. Of course it is the "Creation of Adam". There is no doubt whatsoever about that. But this isn't the process of God moulding Adam's body from the clay of the earth. It is God giving the gifts that make him human. And part of that is intellect. Amandajm ( talk) 22:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
"The final scene of Humankind's degradation is the story of Noah's drunkenness. After the Flood, Noah tills the soil and grows vines. He is shown doing so, in the background of the picture. He becomes drunk and inadvertently exposes himself. His youngest son, Ham, brings his two brothers Shem and Japheth to see the sight but they discreetly cover their father with a cloak. Ham is later cursed by Noah and told that the descendents of his son Canaan will serve Shem and Japheth's descendents forever. Taken together, these three pictures of death, destruction and degradation serve to show that Humankind, represented by Noah's family, had moved a long way from God's perfect creation." (Ref: Goldscheider, 1953)
Goldscheider's memory of Genesis is a bit dodgy - in Genesis 9, Ham sees Noah naked, goes outside and tells his brothers, and they come in, without Ham, walking backwards, and cover Noah with a cloak. Just why they do this is unclear. How they do it is even more unclear - all that walking backwards must surely be risky. Michelangelo's version makes more sense - Ham and his brothers all in the tent together, all looking at the drunken Patriarch. But Mick is, nevertheless, wrong, if by right we mean does he follow the biblical text. Mick was a great man, and allowances must be made - I wouldn't be at all surprised if wasn't actually Moses who slipped up while taking dictation, and Mick is the one who has it right.
But for Goldscheider there can be no leeway, for his theology is even worse than his biblical knowledge: the story of the Curse of Ham is not one of human degradation (that's all finished with the Flood, which wiped out the wicked - at this point only the virtuous are around on Jehovah's good earth), but of the division of the primal population between the Virtuous (Shem and his descendants, namely the Israelites and the Medes) and the Wicked (Canaan). In other words, this scene is the set-up for the long story of just why God gave the land of Canaan to Israel - Canaan (Ham) was wicked, Israel (Shem) virtuous. Please, remove Goldscheider. PiCo ( talk) 21:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Would this photo provide a benefit to the article if it was incorporated? FSU Guy ( talk) 16:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
No mention of the image of God having, according to some, the outline of a brain around him? ABC News Cave Online BBC] MrMarmite ( talk) 16:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts, (belated direct notification of User:Amandajm, User:JNW, User:Ceoil, User:Johnbod)
As part of GA Sweeps, I am reviewing this article and noting its deficiencies. I am very confident in the prospects of rescue for this article given the solid track record of Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts at rescuing such articles. I have seen this group summon very solid efforts to salvage article reviews before (E.g., Henry Moore and El Lissitzky). As is usually, the case, I am harping on citations. My standard continues to be that every paragraph in a well-structured article should have at least one citation since paragraphs are suppose to contain distinct topics and all facts should be attributable to a WP:RS. So many paragraphs were without citation that I lost count. I do not want to delist this important article and hope that the project comes together to rescue this article as they have done for so many other important works. Because of the age of the work, all images pass without any fair use rationales. I would just like to know where all the facts are coming from.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTM) 06:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The other thing that I meant to say here is that I will get around to inserting more inline refs where appropriate, but it might take a day or so before I can find the time the time to do it. In almost every case it will just mean going to the "Section references" and deciding which one to put after which paragraph (or sentence). Amandajm ( talk) 13:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
←I am quite pleased with the progress that is being made with this article. However, 16 entire paragraphs continue to have no citations and it has been six days since the last edit was made to this article. Please let me know if there is further near-term improvement expected. It is possible that if the article goes over seven days without improvement it will be delisted.—Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
further comment I just had a search for the "16 unreferenced paragraphs" you referred to. Frankly, I think that you are being ridiculously nit-picking. I really don't give a stuff whether you are pleased or not. I have been too ill in the last ten days to continue the process. But regardless of that fact, removing a green button from the article will do nothing to reduce its quality. And adding the same references over and over will do little to enhance it. As it is, the article is informative, useful and well-written. If adding four or five distracting references to every sentence is what wins cookie points and gets green buttons, then I don't want them. Amandajm ( talk) 07:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you TonyThe Tiger for initiating this discussion on referencing in one of the Project's GAs. To quote the relevant part of the policy (my numbering):
I can't see a "one citation per paragraph policy" in WIAGA but I'll be happy to learn in case such a policy exists. I don't see that WP:ATT automatically requires such a policy and such a mechanical placement of references would seem a little out of line with the very reasoned approach taken in WIAGA, in which good scholarly practice is emulated well. I have carefully reviewed the article and will be making the following changes over the next days to help conclude this GAR:
Point (4) has some leeway in interpretation but if there is contention regarding this, I would appreciate if someone could point out the specifics; it can certainly be quickly fixed.
Additional points to be addressed:
N.b. I have an issue with threats "to delist the article". The discussion above demonstrates editorial disagreement, the appropriate process is therefore a Community reassessment, not a delisting.
Cheers, Enki H. ( talk) 16:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
FINAL RESULT KEEP In truth, I have trouble with the number of paragraphs that remain unreferenced. I hope the authors continue to improve the article. However, there are far worse examples of good work on WP.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTM) 23:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll step away for a while; IMO reference issues have been addressed now. Just one thing: thirteen of the "references" go to Biblical source; IMO such primary sources might be better handled by wikilinks to wikisource since they should not be used to support interpretations, only to illustrate them. Or one could create a separate group="Scripture" or such . But AFAIAC I see nothing pressing left to do. Enki H. ( talk) 18:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
After working on the GAR, with the article fresh in my mind, I wonder if there is support for working on it a bit more towards getting it to a Featured Article candidacy? Enki H. ( talk) 15:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following unsourced quotation (it's also a bit gratuitous)... it could go back IF a source can be found and IF its relevance to the article can be established. References I found all go back to this article.
Michelangelo Whatever beauty here on earth is seen / To meet the longing and perceptive eye / Is semblance of that source divine / From whence we all are come. /
In this alone we catch a glimpse of Heaven."
--
Enki H. (
talk)
16:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I missed one issue with the refs during the GAR. There is a deadlink.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTM) 03:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Finally, on a political level, the ideals of the Classical "Golden Age" were referenced to endorse the Pope's vision of worldly leadership. "Michelangelo gave permanent form to [such] grandiose aspirations [...] of papal triumphalism."ref- Graham-Dixon 2008, p. 136
This sentence was included in the aricle as if it were a statement of fact, without any supporting material (even though it is cited). How did Michelangelo reference the Classical Golden Age? If he did, did he do it to "endorse the Pope's vision of worldly leadership"? That may be the opinion of Graham-Dixon, but I would argue very strongly that this is not the case, even if the Pope was sufficiently foolish as to believe that it might be. The point that I am making here is not simply that I disagree, but that Michelangelo scholars have differing ideas about things like the "layers of meaning".
It is my opinion that nobody at the papal court had anything whatsover to do with the theology of the ceiling. My personal opinion is that the scheme was devised by someone who didn't give a fig for the Pope's aspirations. If Michelangelo (or his hypothetical consultant) had wished to flatter the pope or represent papal power, then the content would have been very very different. I'm not going to support this here, because it's OR.
If the sentence that I deleted is returned to the article, then it needs to state which writer is of this opinion. Amandajm ( talk) 13:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
With regards to the layers of meaning:
In writing about this in the article, I had included all this information but hadn't divided it into layers, because that is only one way of approaching it.
I don't think there is any philosophical "subtext" as such. There is a quite overt blending of Humanist ideals with Christian ones, with Adam representing the perfect idealised man. Likewise I think it would be quite wrong to refer to a political "subtext". Julius' friends and enemies alike would have looked up, seen the glorious youths supporting swathes of oak and recognised that Julius was glorifying his own family. All this was quite overt. My feeling is that it is quite sufficient to say that Julius commissioned the work, to his own glory, and the glory of the papacy
The pictures around the walls are another matter. There are some quite provocative political subtexts in those pictures. I can't help but be amazed that the artists got away with some of the things that they did.
Sorry, I had a few interruptions and seem to have repeated myself a bit, but I'll post it anyway. Amandajm ( talk) 13:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Please don't change "s" to "z" in the US manner in words that end in "-ise". This article uses English spelling. Amandajm ( talk) 13:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the following should be considered before it stays in the article, so I've taken it here ( original diff):
Efetov seems mainly known for his work on butterflies.
Johnbod ( talk) 16:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
References
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I'm seeking consensus from this community to re-include a link to this page: http://beckydaroff.com/arthistory/scc/. This is a visual tour of the Sistine Chapel where the user can mouse-over the map of the room to see detailed images of each fresco in context. This is a not-for-profit project. I do not benefit in any way from additional visits to my site, other than the gratification that a stranger might appreciate the Sistine Chapel frescos more because of my project. I believe that this visual interaction is an effective method of exploring the Sistine Chapel, and that it is a valuable complement to Wikipedia's text-based article. Please ask any questions you may have, and thank you for your consideration. Bdaroff ( talk) 01:01, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
This has been transferred from the article where an unnamed editor inserted a comment.
In fact, Pope Adrian, who succeeded Leo X, was strongly opposed to the painting on the ceiling, considered it immoral and wanted it stripped off. However, he didn't live long enough to overcome the objections and see it happen. Amandajm ( talk) 03:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
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Hi, I see you removed not only my clarifying addition on the Arch of Constantine but also the entire point about Botticelli's earlier paintings in the Chapel influencing the composition of Michelangelo's scheme for the ceiling. I did not add this information, but the reason you gave for removing it is wrong; there plainly is gold used on the tondi in Botticelli's painting on the wall, and it's perfectly reasonable to mention that in the article on the ceiling. It's also reasonable to add mention of the Arch of Constantine (which does not have visible gold remaining on it) since it is almost exactly copied on the Sistine Chapel wall, and moreover has been put there because it intimates the pope's succession to Constantine (see: Donation of Constantine) and through him to the fondly remembered emperors of the past: Hadrian, Trajan, and Septimius Severus whose sculptured roundels, friezes, and statues of prisoners were reused in the Arch and thus adapted by Botticelli for the Papal Palace's chapel. GPinkerton ( talk) 17:33, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
".......notably those by Perugino, has been 'most expertly used not just to detail the robes but to highlight the folds by subtle graduation in the density of golden flecks. It is this technique that Michelangelo has picked up on and carried a step further, inspired also perhaps by the medallions that appear on a Roman triumphal arch - modelled on the Arch of Constantine - in Botticelli's episode from the Life of Moses, showing the Punishment of the Rebels.
The red figural medallions may have been influenced by Botticelli's depiction on the Chapel wall of gold figures on the medallions of the Roman triumphal arch in the background of his episode from the Life of Moses, the Punishment of the Sons of Corah. This arch's design is copied from the Arch of Constantine, which features sculpted marble tondi in place of Botticelli's gilded medallions
GPinkerton ( talk)
This is inaccurate (Botticelli's medallions are not gilded. I checked, because if they were gilded it would be highly relevant)
It is also just plain bad writing-
One of the major sources here is Vasari. It would be very useful to the whole article of someone was to locate a modern scholarly edition of Vasari (complete) and track down the page numbers. This would be a much more useful that pointing out that the numbers are missing.
A lot of the text has been broadly adapted, rather than directly quoted, from the various books that have been cited. You could look them up.
You also have to expect that any article that has been around for many years may not match the citation standards that are expected in 2020.
Amandajm ( talk) 19:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Amandajm ( talk) 21:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Concerning Vasari. In almost every place where Vasari is used as a source, he is NAMED as the source, not merely cited, unless the fact is beyond question.
If an "opinion" is given by Vasari, then he must be named in the text, not stated as "fact".
This does not rule our Vasari as a source. It merely contains the way in which he is used.
If you have a great number of objections to the article, then I suggest that you start again.
Leave this one intact until you have written a better one, with citations to suit your liking and in American English, which you are perfectly free to do as the main author of the article.
Amandajm ( talk) 21:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
And do go back and add a verb to that sentence!
Some areas were, in fact, decorated with gold: the shields between the Ignudi and the columns between the Prophets and Sibyls. It seems very likely that the gilding of the shields was part of Michelangelo's original scheme, since they are painted to resemble a certain type of parade shield, a number of which still exist and are decorated in a similar style with gold.
Parade shields, sometimes described as being painted to resemble bronze. Known examples are actually of lacquered and gilt wood.
The technique that Michelangelo has employed is unusual in fresco, and may be original in its employment on this scale, but is not unique. He has utilised the same technique that was employed for decorating shields used in pageants and is similar to that used when drawing in metal point and white chalk on a coloured ground. The ground colour (in this case red ochre streaked with black) makes the background and all the mid tones in the composition. The shadowed edges are then painted or rather, drawn with a brush and the shadows drawn in a highly linear manner that defines the contours of the forms. On coloured paper, the highlights and brightly lit contours would usually be drawn with white chalk or finely painted in white paint. But in this case, gold leaf entirely replaces the white and has been applied exactly as if it had been drawn on, using the same method of defining contour as the black lines. A number of shields decorated by this technique are displayed in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London.
The application of gold on the "shields", in contrast to its absence on the rest of the ceiling, serves to link the ceiling to some extent with the frescoes around the walls|date=March 2020|reason=}}. In the latter, gold leaf has been applied lavishly to many details and in some of the frescoes, notably those by Perugino, has been most expertly used not just to detail the robes but to highlight the folds by subtle graduation in the density of golden flecks. It is this technique that Michelangelo has picked up on and carried a step further
Michelangelo's gilded medallions the presence of figural medallions on the Roman triumphal arch, based on the Arch of Constantine, that appears in Botticelli's episode from the Life of Moses, showing the Punishment of the Sons of Corah, on the wall of the Sistine Chapel.
This paragraph:
This is the way you are planning on introducing your reader to the most important fact of the article- that Pope Julius commissioned Michelangelo to paint the the greatest work of art in the world?
When you are writing a little scold to someone about how naughty they are for including some Personal Opinion, then you express yourself with competence and fluidity.
May I suggest that if you cannot bring that skill to bear on this article, that you just content yourself with looking up a few page numbers to improve the references.
Multiple images are almost always a terrible idea - single row galleries are much better, for a raft of reasons. A whole load havwe just been added, & I'm minded to revert them. What do others think? Johnbod ( talk) 00:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
John Ruskin compared Michelangelo's Brazen Serpent scene favourably to the canonical classical statue group Laocoön and His Sons, which Michelangelo saw on its discovery in 1506 together with Giuliano da Sangallo and his son.[61][62] Both works are crowded compositions of figures attacked by supernatural reptiles: the "fiery serpents" of the Book of Numbers and the sea-monsters of Virgil's Aeneid. But Ruskin preferred the sublimity expressed by Michelangelo's "gigantic intellect" in "the grandeur of the plague itself, in its multitudinous grasp, and its mystical salvation" and his "awfulness and quietness" to the "meagre lines and contemptible tortures of the Laocoön" and argued that "the grandeur of this treatment results, not merely from choice, but from a greater knowledge and more faithful rendering of truth".[61] Attacking the sculpture's unnaturalistic snakes as "pieces of tape with heads to them" and criticizing the unrealistic struggle, he contrasts:[61] ... the accuracy of Michael Angelo in the rendering of these circumstances; the binding of the arms to the body, and the knotting of the whole mass of agony together, until we hear the crashing of the bones beneath the grisly sliding of the engine folds. Note also the expression in all the figures of another circumstance, the torpor and cold numbness of the limbs induced by the serpent venom, which, though justifiably over-looked by the sculptor of the Laocoön, as well as by Virgil — in consideration of the rapidity of the death by crushing, adds infinitely to the power of the Florentine's conception.
— John Ruskin, Modern Painters, vol. 3, ch. VII., 1856.'
This article has extensive citation needed and other maintenance tags. There's a lot of discussion about quality on the talk page, but work on the article itself has largely ceased since 8 April. Until the tags can be resolved, this article should not be listed as a GA, as it fails criteria #2. Eddie891 Talk Work 17:37, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: Please forgive any 'citevar' trespasses from my edits; I'll refrain from reformatting anything here from now on. I only care about adding citations where they are lacking—not any specific formatting being used. So please disregard the bulk of my changes and for now I'll focus only on re-introducing non-controversial citations, with clear explanations of my reasoning. Other more complicated issues of the article can be returned to later on. Thanks both for catching my oversteps here, and your time moving forward. Best, UpdateNerd ( talk) 08:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Not sure what is causing this article's title to display in Italics, but that seems inappropriate as the work has no title per se. UpdateNerd ( talk) 22:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
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Removed request for more images of spandrels, because there was only one. There are now four. -- Amandajm 13:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Some time ago (a year or two, perhaps) this article stated a well-known fact, that Michelangelo was in a sort of flow state or "in the zone" while painting la volta della Capella Sistina. I could not find this assertion upon reading the article again as of 20 of January, 2012. I wonder why would that be removed from the article, being that it is not only interesting but highly relevant for the psychology of arts. Anyone with sources is welcome to add that bit about Michelangelo's flow state again to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.113.201.87 ( talk) 01:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
This page has contained one major and several lesser errors from the outset. I'm going to have to rewrite that which is seriously inaccurate, and correct the lesser errors.
The diagram needs fixing as well. Can someone with the skills to do it please contact me! -- Amandajm 00:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry about the diagram. It's been replaced. -- Amandajm 07:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought... isn't creating images of god a sin in christianity? Could somebody clarify why the church would allow pictures of god on the ceiling of a chapel? 81.221.166.31 13:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The creation of an image for the purpose of education, enlightenment or enjoyment is not seen as sinful. The sin comes in if the object is then worshipped.
The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is admired, but it's certainly not worshipped, so this doen't constitute a problem. Rigth through the history of the Christian church, probably starting in the Catacombs outside Rome, the painting of figures representing Christian subjects has been common. In the earliest times Jesus was usually depicted in the guise of a Roman shepherd, with a sheep across his shoulders, because he said "I am the Good Shepherd." (Referring to Psalm 23, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall want for nothing, he leads me into the green pastures and beside the quiet waters."
In the Dark Ages, when few people could read, painted pictures were a way of reminding the illiterate of the Bible stories. Scenes of the Creation and Adam and Eve were common. So were pictures of the Day of Judgement. They were to inform, and to warn. They were not to worship.
The problem arises with so called objects of veneration. If a picture or a statue becomes something that is used by a Christian to help them focus their attention while praying, or to contemplate on a religiious subject, the Suffering of Jesus for example. Then a grey area is reached where the object itself can take on mystical significance.
In the Greek Orthodox Church, this brought about a revolution in the 8th century when people were forbidden to have religious paintings. Thousands were destroyed. Very few remain from before 800AD.
But this ruling was overturned. It has been very common in the Catholic Church to pray before statues. It doesn't mean that the statue is worshipped. But quite frequently it is claimed that the image itself is miraculous because Christ, or more frequently, the Virgin Mary, is working through the statue.
While on one hand, some healings seem miraculous, I don't think that an image is the thing that has brought it about. None-the-less, some of these images, The Miraculous Virgin of Guadalupo and the Holy Infant of Prague for example, are so popular that they are reproduced in plaster and can be found in countless churches, with candles and flowers in front of them.
To a member of a Reformed church (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian etc) this is all quite problematic and is part of the reason that these churches broke away from Rome.
But as for the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. No, it hhas never caused controversy in Christianity abbout the depiction of God, as far as I know. What got people really up-in-arms was the depiction of the Virgin Mary naked on the Day of Judgement.
Michelangelo's Pieta is another matter. Before it was put behind an armour-plate window, the faithful were able to touch the bleeding feet of Christ. People would weep when they saw it. (There's a wiki article about this sort of thing at Stendahl Syndrome, it's not just the religios feeling, it's also the beauty of the statue which causes this to happen). Anyway, an Hungarian Australian by the name of Lazlo Toft, a devout Christian, tried to smash it up with a hammer for this reason. He was gaoled, of course. And the Pope (unfortunately) said "He must be punished for damaging a work of religious veneration". The Pope had no understanding of Toft's righteous and fanatical religious feeling.
I, personally, see most Christian art as a wonderful way of introducing people to a greater knowledge of Christian faith, because i am, myself a Christian.
-- Amandajm 03:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Should there be a small section on the restoration in the 80's? Perhaps. -- Kansaikiwi 12:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I think pope is lower case unless it comes right before the name of the pope (Pope Sixtus IV, the pope).
-- Amandajm 18:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
When I was a young school kid (circa 1991, I guess), I remember sitting in class and watching a news report on Channel One claiming that as part of the ceiling restoration, they were soon going to be painting clothing onto some/all (can't remember) of the currently-nude people in the paintings. They showed "artist's renderings" of the pending changes for a few sections of the ceiling, with all the former nude people now wrapped up in cloth like Jesus wears in traditional crucifixion paintings (like this one. I was only 11-ish at the time but I was outraged that they would do something so horrible and ridiculous; plus the "edits" looked obvious and awful. I can't remember much about the news report (it was ~15 years ago and I was in elementary school), but they made out like the decision had already been made and the censorship was going to be done to the ceiling in the near future. Never having heard otherwise, I've been upset and angry about it ever since then, not just about the defilement of such a famous artwork, but also about people's apparant apathy and ignorance because I never saw any other coverage or protests about the censorship.
But I just recently checked several Wikipedia articles, and I can't find any reference that this ever actually happened! Did it? The article mentions controversy about cleaning the grime from the ceiling, but it says nothing about painting clothing on the nude figures, which would surely be a hundred times as controversial!
If it never happened, then what was the deal with that news report I saw circa 1991? Were there originally plans to conceal the nudity that were later (thankfully) abandoned? Who drew the awful "updated version" that I saw on the news? Or is my memory completely faulty, and maybe I've confused the Sistine Chapel with some other work of art that was being subjected to a censorship restoration?
4.89.247.77 02:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just rewritten most of this article. With regards to links, I know that there are people out there who want everything linked every time and spend a lot of time doing it.
I haven't chosen to do that here. Terms that are used repeatedly do not require a link every time. Michelangelo is linked at the beginning. So are other important words and names like Pope Julius II, Vasari, Ignudi, Creation etc. Subsequently, they are not linked every time they are mentioned, in order to make other significant links readily apparent.
-- Amandajm 04:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Before "tightening up" well-written prose, one needs to consider what one is cutting.
A sentence that said that "War broke out" became linked by a colon to the fact that the Pope's tomb sculptures were not finished. No!. That isn't what was either written or implied. The war was not the reason that the sculptures weren't finished.
-- Amandajm 14:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
It's pretty good, and I felt it worthy of GA. The automated peer review suggests:
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 2 metres, use 2 metres, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 2 metres.
[?]I realize that's quite a bit but a lot of those are minor, and while I strongly suggest addressing them, I don't feel they're reason to not pass it as GA. Dooms Day349 17:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Anthony Bertram discusses this as a hidden layer in the meanings of these works and notes that "The principle opposed forces in this conflict were his passionate admiration for classical beauty and his profound, almost mystical Catholicism, his homosexuality, and his horror of carnal sin combined with a lofty Platonic concept of love."
I've editted out the reference to dualism in the Ancestors and the depressed state of the "religious figures".
I think that Bertram's interpretation is much too narrow in seeing this as reflecting Michelangelo's own personal conflict about one personal matter. I think that Bertram has greatly underestimated the depth of Michelangelo's knowledge of Theology and the power of his creativity as a story-teller. If you read this whole article again you will (perhaps) understand why.
The thing that should be noted is that the subject of the whole ceiling (and the ancestor paintings) is Sin. And accompanying the Sin are Grief, Guilt, Fear, Rage, Resentment, Depression, Hopelessness, Loneliness, Physical Illness and all those other horrible things that are part of the human state. If you look hard at the Ancestors, you'll find your own particular sin there among them. Most of them are either in a state of conflict with their partner or are as focussed on themselves as Narcissus was. Paranoia, Vanity, Spite, Envy, Lust, Avarice, Partiality and so on.
As for the anguished faces of the actors in the narrative panels, they relate directly to the subject matter. Of course Adam and Eve look distraught at being put out of Eden! And of course the people in the Flood painting appear in a state of fear and distress. This is not about Mchelangelo the guilty homosexual. This is about Michelangelo the brilliant story-teller.
And the expressions of the prophets, they relate closely to their particular prophecies. Jeremiah looks particularly distressed. He is one of the so-called "Major Prophets" and his subject was the downfall of Jerulsalem. His second book is called "Lamentations".
Personally, when I look at the ignudi around the ceiling, I don't see any sign whatsoever of guilt over the admiration of the human body. And wherever men and women occur together on the ceiling we see them relating to each other in an intimate and natural way.
-- Amandajm 14:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
In Christian teaching, Sin is a given. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Sin is the whole reason that humankind needed the Salvation provided by Jesus Christ. Sin starts with Adam and Eve.
What Michelangelo has done is provide a background to the Old Covenant between God and the Jewish people through Moses and the New Covenant between God and all humanity through Christ. The way he has done it is very thoughtful and clever. If he had shown all those ancestors as happy well-adjusted people living "Godly" lives, then salvation through Jesus would not have been necessary. So he shows them as normal, squabbling, selfish people. This is the whole reason why th ceiling is about Sin. The Last Judgement picture picks up the theme again.
There is yet another element in the total scheme of the chapel. It is not a painted element. It is the Holy Sacrament of Bread and Wine, representing the continuing presence of the Living Christ. Because of the presence of the sacrament, Michelangelo didn't have to paint anything to represent Christ's incarnation or sacrifice. So the existent fresco of the Birth of Jesus was painted over.
If you look at the content and expression from a purely Theological point of view, then the whole scheme of the Chapel is drawn together in such a dynamic way by Michelangelo's ceiling that the notion that it might be all about his personal angst gets swamped by an all-embracing and magnificent concept.
-- Amandajm 15:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
(discussion transferred from another page) The final (First day of Creation) image is surely Michelangelo himself, working on the ceiling in the supreme act of creation. I found a website the other day that supported this vview, but I've lost it. The beard is shorter, the face is almost hidden, the figure is workingg above his head.
As for God creating the Earth, Sun and Moon, the wrathful God has mmuch in common with the Moses for Pope Julius' tomb. It has been said before that Michelangelo represented the Pope as God. Well, if so, it's an image more in keeping with the man who said "Show me with a sword; I know nothing of books!"
As for the creation of Adam, there's much more of a benvolence in that picture. I've always loved the hand of God which is so square and capabable but hhas delicate fingertips. Its the hand of a man who not only pounded the clay and modelled it to make the man but who also wired the circuits of his brain.
There's been a study done on Michelangelo's David which indicates that he was almost certainly a stone mason. Several of the models on the ceiling have similar characteristics. What we see in the forearm of Michelangelo's God is the massive development consistent with using a hammer and chisel, in particular the bulge just near the wrist which is the abductor pollicus longus which brings the hand forward in relation to the forearm and is used when hammering in a controlled way (cobbler's tacks as against six inch nails). I'm sure we are looking at Michelangelo's own arm here. But I can't really say this, can I? I'm sure it falls under the category of original research!
In quite a lot of late Medieval/Early Renaissance images there is no distinction between God the Creator and God Incarnate so that when God is shown in the Creation stories, he looks just like Jesus in the Redemption episodes, the only difference being that he is often given a triangular halo as against Jesus' triple-rayed halo which symbolises the cross as well as the Trinity. God appears like this in the frescoes at San Gimigniano. There is another picture of the Trinity somewhere... I think a Jesuit statement...which shows the triune God as three identical Jesus-persons all enthroned side-by-side. Rather intimidating -- Amandajm 02:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
wtf. bubble speech from god saying hahaha? thats photoshopped. someone take it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.30.134 ( talk) 18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad Lady CdB didn't see that one! Amandajm 10:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone added this unsouurce statement to the article, with regards to the "Creation of Adam":
The problem with this statement is that its writer presumes that the two interpretations are mutually exclusive. Of course it is the "Creation of Adam". There is no doubt whatsoever about that. But this isn't the process of God moulding Adam's body from the clay of the earth. It is God giving the gifts that make him human. And part of that is intellect. Amandajm ( talk) 22:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
"The final scene of Humankind's degradation is the story of Noah's drunkenness. After the Flood, Noah tills the soil and grows vines. He is shown doing so, in the background of the picture. He becomes drunk and inadvertently exposes himself. His youngest son, Ham, brings his two brothers Shem and Japheth to see the sight but they discreetly cover their father with a cloak. Ham is later cursed by Noah and told that the descendents of his son Canaan will serve Shem and Japheth's descendents forever. Taken together, these three pictures of death, destruction and degradation serve to show that Humankind, represented by Noah's family, had moved a long way from God's perfect creation." (Ref: Goldscheider, 1953)
Goldscheider's memory of Genesis is a bit dodgy - in Genesis 9, Ham sees Noah naked, goes outside and tells his brothers, and they come in, without Ham, walking backwards, and cover Noah with a cloak. Just why they do this is unclear. How they do it is even more unclear - all that walking backwards must surely be risky. Michelangelo's version makes more sense - Ham and his brothers all in the tent together, all looking at the drunken Patriarch. But Mick is, nevertheless, wrong, if by right we mean does he follow the biblical text. Mick was a great man, and allowances must be made - I wouldn't be at all surprised if wasn't actually Moses who slipped up while taking dictation, and Mick is the one who has it right.
But for Goldscheider there can be no leeway, for his theology is even worse than his biblical knowledge: the story of the Curse of Ham is not one of human degradation (that's all finished with the Flood, which wiped out the wicked - at this point only the virtuous are around on Jehovah's good earth), but of the division of the primal population between the Virtuous (Shem and his descendants, namely the Israelites and the Medes) and the Wicked (Canaan). In other words, this scene is the set-up for the long story of just why God gave the land of Canaan to Israel - Canaan (Ham) was wicked, Israel (Shem) virtuous. Please, remove Goldscheider. PiCo ( talk) 21:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Would this photo provide a benefit to the article if it was incorporated? FSU Guy ( talk) 16:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
No mention of the image of God having, according to some, the outline of a brain around him? ABC News Cave Online BBC] MrMarmite ( talk) 16:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts, (belated direct notification of User:Amandajm, User:JNW, User:Ceoil, User:Johnbod)
As part of GA Sweeps, I am reviewing this article and noting its deficiencies. I am very confident in the prospects of rescue for this article given the solid track record of Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts at rescuing such articles. I have seen this group summon very solid efforts to salvage article reviews before (E.g., Henry Moore and El Lissitzky). As is usually, the case, I am harping on citations. My standard continues to be that every paragraph in a well-structured article should have at least one citation since paragraphs are suppose to contain distinct topics and all facts should be attributable to a WP:RS. So many paragraphs were without citation that I lost count. I do not want to delist this important article and hope that the project comes together to rescue this article as they have done for so many other important works. Because of the age of the work, all images pass without any fair use rationales. I would just like to know where all the facts are coming from.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTM) 06:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The other thing that I meant to say here is that I will get around to inserting more inline refs where appropriate, but it might take a day or so before I can find the time the time to do it. In almost every case it will just mean going to the "Section references" and deciding which one to put after which paragraph (or sentence). Amandajm ( talk) 13:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
←I am quite pleased with the progress that is being made with this article. However, 16 entire paragraphs continue to have no citations and it has been six days since the last edit was made to this article. Please let me know if there is further near-term improvement expected. It is possible that if the article goes over seven days without improvement it will be delisted.—Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
further comment I just had a search for the "16 unreferenced paragraphs" you referred to. Frankly, I think that you are being ridiculously nit-picking. I really don't give a stuff whether you are pleased or not. I have been too ill in the last ten days to continue the process. But regardless of that fact, removing a green button from the article will do nothing to reduce its quality. And adding the same references over and over will do little to enhance it. As it is, the article is informative, useful and well-written. If adding four or five distracting references to every sentence is what wins cookie points and gets green buttons, then I don't want them. Amandajm ( talk) 07:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you TonyThe Tiger for initiating this discussion on referencing in one of the Project's GAs. To quote the relevant part of the policy (my numbering):
I can't see a "one citation per paragraph policy" in WIAGA but I'll be happy to learn in case such a policy exists. I don't see that WP:ATT automatically requires such a policy and such a mechanical placement of references would seem a little out of line with the very reasoned approach taken in WIAGA, in which good scholarly practice is emulated well. I have carefully reviewed the article and will be making the following changes over the next days to help conclude this GAR:
Point (4) has some leeway in interpretation but if there is contention regarding this, I would appreciate if someone could point out the specifics; it can certainly be quickly fixed.
Additional points to be addressed:
N.b. I have an issue with threats "to delist the article". The discussion above demonstrates editorial disagreement, the appropriate process is therefore a Community reassessment, not a delisting.
Cheers, Enki H. ( talk) 16:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
FINAL RESULT KEEP In truth, I have trouble with the number of paragraphs that remain unreferenced. I hope the authors continue to improve the article. However, there are far worse examples of good work on WP.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTM) 23:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll step away for a while; IMO reference issues have been addressed now. Just one thing: thirteen of the "references" go to Biblical source; IMO such primary sources might be better handled by wikilinks to wikisource since they should not be used to support interpretations, only to illustrate them. Or one could create a separate group="Scripture" or such . But AFAIAC I see nothing pressing left to do. Enki H. ( talk) 18:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
After working on the GAR, with the article fresh in my mind, I wonder if there is support for working on it a bit more towards getting it to a Featured Article candidacy? Enki H. ( talk) 15:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following unsourced quotation (it's also a bit gratuitous)... it could go back IF a source can be found and IF its relevance to the article can be established. References I found all go back to this article.
Michelangelo Whatever beauty here on earth is seen / To meet the longing and perceptive eye / Is semblance of that source divine / From whence we all are come. /
In this alone we catch a glimpse of Heaven."
--
Enki H. (
talk)
16:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I missed one issue with the refs during the GAR. There is a deadlink.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTM) 03:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Finally, on a political level, the ideals of the Classical "Golden Age" were referenced to endorse the Pope's vision of worldly leadership. "Michelangelo gave permanent form to [such] grandiose aspirations [...] of papal triumphalism."ref- Graham-Dixon 2008, p. 136
This sentence was included in the aricle as if it were a statement of fact, without any supporting material (even though it is cited). How did Michelangelo reference the Classical Golden Age? If he did, did he do it to "endorse the Pope's vision of worldly leadership"? That may be the opinion of Graham-Dixon, but I would argue very strongly that this is not the case, even if the Pope was sufficiently foolish as to believe that it might be. The point that I am making here is not simply that I disagree, but that Michelangelo scholars have differing ideas about things like the "layers of meaning".
It is my opinion that nobody at the papal court had anything whatsover to do with the theology of the ceiling. My personal opinion is that the scheme was devised by someone who didn't give a fig for the Pope's aspirations. If Michelangelo (or his hypothetical consultant) had wished to flatter the pope or represent papal power, then the content would have been very very different. I'm not going to support this here, because it's OR.
If the sentence that I deleted is returned to the article, then it needs to state which writer is of this opinion. Amandajm ( talk) 13:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
With regards to the layers of meaning:
In writing about this in the article, I had included all this information but hadn't divided it into layers, because that is only one way of approaching it.
I don't think there is any philosophical "subtext" as such. There is a quite overt blending of Humanist ideals with Christian ones, with Adam representing the perfect idealised man. Likewise I think it would be quite wrong to refer to a political "subtext". Julius' friends and enemies alike would have looked up, seen the glorious youths supporting swathes of oak and recognised that Julius was glorifying his own family. All this was quite overt. My feeling is that it is quite sufficient to say that Julius commissioned the work, to his own glory, and the glory of the papacy
The pictures around the walls are another matter. There are some quite provocative political subtexts in those pictures. I can't help but be amazed that the artists got away with some of the things that they did.
Sorry, I had a few interruptions and seem to have repeated myself a bit, but I'll post it anyway. Amandajm ( talk) 13:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Please don't change "s" to "z" in the US manner in words that end in "-ise". This article uses English spelling. Amandajm ( talk) 13:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the following should be considered before it stays in the article, so I've taken it here ( original diff):
Efetov seems mainly known for his work on butterflies.
Johnbod ( talk) 16:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
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I'm seeking consensus from this community to re-include a link to this page: http://beckydaroff.com/arthistory/scc/. This is a visual tour of the Sistine Chapel where the user can mouse-over the map of the room to see detailed images of each fresco in context. This is a not-for-profit project. I do not benefit in any way from additional visits to my site, other than the gratification that a stranger might appreciate the Sistine Chapel frescos more because of my project. I believe that this visual interaction is an effective method of exploring the Sistine Chapel, and that it is a valuable complement to Wikipedia's text-based article. Please ask any questions you may have, and thank you for your consideration. Bdaroff ( talk) 01:01, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
This has been transferred from the article where an unnamed editor inserted a comment.
In fact, Pope Adrian, who succeeded Leo X, was strongly opposed to the painting on the ceiling, considered it immoral and wanted it stripped off. However, he didn't live long enough to overcome the objections and see it happen. Amandajm ( talk) 03:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
blleeeuuggghhh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:C20B:3600:CEF:AAB5:CAAD:4729 ( talk) 12:47, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
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Hi, I see you removed not only my clarifying addition on the Arch of Constantine but also the entire point about Botticelli's earlier paintings in the Chapel influencing the composition of Michelangelo's scheme for the ceiling. I did not add this information, but the reason you gave for removing it is wrong; there plainly is gold used on the tondi in Botticelli's painting on the wall, and it's perfectly reasonable to mention that in the article on the ceiling. It's also reasonable to add mention of the Arch of Constantine (which does not have visible gold remaining on it) since it is almost exactly copied on the Sistine Chapel wall, and moreover has been put there because it intimates the pope's succession to Constantine (see: Donation of Constantine) and through him to the fondly remembered emperors of the past: Hadrian, Trajan, and Septimius Severus whose sculptured roundels, friezes, and statues of prisoners were reused in the Arch and thus adapted by Botticelli for the Papal Palace's chapel. GPinkerton ( talk) 17:33, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
".......notably those by Perugino, has been 'most expertly used not just to detail the robes but to highlight the folds by subtle graduation in the density of golden flecks. It is this technique that Michelangelo has picked up on and carried a step further, inspired also perhaps by the medallions that appear on a Roman triumphal arch - modelled on the Arch of Constantine - in Botticelli's episode from the Life of Moses, showing the Punishment of the Rebels.
The red figural medallions may have been influenced by Botticelli's depiction on the Chapel wall of gold figures on the medallions of the Roman triumphal arch in the background of his episode from the Life of Moses, the Punishment of the Sons of Corah. This arch's design is copied from the Arch of Constantine, which features sculpted marble tondi in place of Botticelli's gilded medallions
GPinkerton ( talk)
This is inaccurate (Botticelli's medallions are not gilded. I checked, because if they were gilded it would be highly relevant)
It is also just plain bad writing-
One of the major sources here is Vasari. It would be very useful to the whole article of someone was to locate a modern scholarly edition of Vasari (complete) and track down the page numbers. This would be a much more useful that pointing out that the numbers are missing.
A lot of the text has been broadly adapted, rather than directly quoted, from the various books that have been cited. You could look them up.
You also have to expect that any article that has been around for many years may not match the citation standards that are expected in 2020.
Amandajm ( talk) 19:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Amandajm ( talk) 21:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Concerning Vasari. In almost every place where Vasari is used as a source, he is NAMED as the source, not merely cited, unless the fact is beyond question.
If an "opinion" is given by Vasari, then he must be named in the text, not stated as "fact".
This does not rule our Vasari as a source. It merely contains the way in which he is used.
If you have a great number of objections to the article, then I suggest that you start again.
Leave this one intact until you have written a better one, with citations to suit your liking and in American English, which you are perfectly free to do as the main author of the article.
Amandajm ( talk) 21:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
And do go back and add a verb to that sentence!
Some areas were, in fact, decorated with gold: the shields between the Ignudi and the columns between the Prophets and Sibyls. It seems very likely that the gilding of the shields was part of Michelangelo's original scheme, since they are painted to resemble a certain type of parade shield, a number of which still exist and are decorated in a similar style with gold.
Parade shields, sometimes described as being painted to resemble bronze. Known examples are actually of lacquered and gilt wood.
The technique that Michelangelo has employed is unusual in fresco, and may be original in its employment on this scale, but is not unique. He has utilised the same technique that was employed for decorating shields used in pageants and is similar to that used when drawing in metal point and white chalk on a coloured ground. The ground colour (in this case red ochre streaked with black) makes the background and all the mid tones in the composition. The shadowed edges are then painted or rather, drawn with a brush and the shadows drawn in a highly linear manner that defines the contours of the forms. On coloured paper, the highlights and brightly lit contours would usually be drawn with white chalk or finely painted in white paint. But in this case, gold leaf entirely replaces the white and has been applied exactly as if it had been drawn on, using the same method of defining contour as the black lines. A number of shields decorated by this technique are displayed in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London.
The application of gold on the "shields", in contrast to its absence on the rest of the ceiling, serves to link the ceiling to some extent with the frescoes around the walls|date=March 2020|reason=}}. In the latter, gold leaf has been applied lavishly to many details and in some of the frescoes, notably those by Perugino, has been most expertly used not just to detail the robes but to highlight the folds by subtle graduation in the density of golden flecks. It is this technique that Michelangelo has picked up on and carried a step further
Michelangelo's gilded medallions the presence of figural medallions on the Roman triumphal arch, based on the Arch of Constantine, that appears in Botticelli's episode from the Life of Moses, showing the Punishment of the Sons of Corah, on the wall of the Sistine Chapel.
This paragraph:
This is the way you are planning on introducing your reader to the most important fact of the article- that Pope Julius commissioned Michelangelo to paint the the greatest work of art in the world?
When you are writing a little scold to someone about how naughty they are for including some Personal Opinion, then you express yourself with competence and fluidity.
May I suggest that if you cannot bring that skill to bear on this article, that you just content yourself with looking up a few page numbers to improve the references.
Multiple images are almost always a terrible idea - single row galleries are much better, for a raft of reasons. A whole load havwe just been added, & I'm minded to revert them. What do others think? Johnbod ( talk) 00:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
John Ruskin compared Michelangelo's Brazen Serpent scene favourably to the canonical classical statue group Laocoön and His Sons, which Michelangelo saw on its discovery in 1506 together with Giuliano da Sangallo and his son.[61][62] Both works are crowded compositions of figures attacked by supernatural reptiles: the "fiery serpents" of the Book of Numbers and the sea-monsters of Virgil's Aeneid. But Ruskin preferred the sublimity expressed by Michelangelo's "gigantic intellect" in "the grandeur of the plague itself, in its multitudinous grasp, and its mystical salvation" and his "awfulness and quietness" to the "meagre lines and contemptible tortures of the Laocoön" and argued that "the grandeur of this treatment results, not merely from choice, but from a greater knowledge and more faithful rendering of truth".[61] Attacking the sculpture's unnaturalistic snakes as "pieces of tape with heads to them" and criticizing the unrealistic struggle, he contrasts:[61] ... the accuracy of Michael Angelo in the rendering of these circumstances; the binding of the arms to the body, and the knotting of the whole mass of agony together, until we hear the crashing of the bones beneath the grisly sliding of the engine folds. Note also the expression in all the figures of another circumstance, the torpor and cold numbness of the limbs induced by the serpent venom, which, though justifiably over-looked by the sculptor of the Laocoön, as well as by Virgil — in consideration of the rapidity of the death by crushing, adds infinitely to the power of the Florentine's conception.
— John Ruskin, Modern Painters, vol. 3, ch. VII., 1856.'
This article has extensive citation needed and other maintenance tags. There's a lot of discussion about quality on the talk page, but work on the article itself has largely ceased since 8 April. Until the tags can be resolved, this article should not be listed as a GA, as it fails criteria #2. Eddie891 Talk Work 17:37, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: Please forgive any 'citevar' trespasses from my edits; I'll refrain from reformatting anything here from now on. I only care about adding citations where they are lacking—not any specific formatting being used. So please disregard the bulk of my changes and for now I'll focus only on re-introducing non-controversial citations, with clear explanations of my reasoning. Other more complicated issues of the article can be returned to later on. Thanks both for catching my oversteps here, and your time moving forward. Best, UpdateNerd ( talk) 08:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Not sure what is causing this article's title to display in Italics, but that seems inappropriate as the work has no title per se. UpdateNerd ( talk) 22:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC)