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![]() | A fact from Sima Nan appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 27 October 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
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I am deleting the following from the page, as it stands in violation of WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP:
This is an exceptional claim by all definitions, and would require multiple reliable sources to remain in the article. It is a "surprising or apparently important claim not covered by multiple mainstream sources" in that it originates from an interview with Sima Nan on a Chinese government websites, and was not widely reported in mainstream sources. It is also a "challenged claim...supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"—again, it was originally self-published by Sima Nan and Chinese government websites. Christopher Hitchens repeated the allegations after interviewing Sima, and Hitchens arguably had a conflict of interest as well (or is, at a minimum, a highly partisan source). Sima has never presented any evidence to substantiate the claim that Li Hongzhi said this, and in interviews with Chinese government websites, he essentially admitted that it was hearsay. Finally, it is a report "of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended," which is also "contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community... that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in ... biographies of living people." In a previous discussion in which this was hashed out, a Falun Gong editor noted that the notion of a falun "revolving in the wrong direction" is contradicted by statements from Li himself, who states that the falun naturally rotates in both directions, and is only provided to "genuine practitioners" of Falun Gong. Therefore, the the notion that Li would make the statements alleged by Sima Nan would fundamentally alter the understanding of Falun Gong's teachings, and possibly of Li's own character.
Moreover, per WP:RS on quotations, if we are quoting someone (as this paragraph does), the quote should be sourced to the person him or herself, rather than to their self-proclaimed antagonists. WP:BLP is very clear about this kind of thing as well.
I am also removing the phrase which states that Sima supported the suppression of Falun Gong because it is a fraud. It is not appropriate to make such statements in Wikipedia's voice. Homunculus ( duihua) 15:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
From a previous discussion, here's the source of this claim. In an interview with a Chinese government website dedicated to propagandizing against Falun Gong, Sima stated the following:
Essentially, Sima is saying that the statements allegedly made by Li Hongzhi were a matter of hearsay relayed to him in a (possibly anonymous?) letter. In other words, it is a self-published source making dubious claims about a third party without evidence. That's not good enough to warrant inclusion here. Again, according to people who actually have familiarity with Li Hongzhi's teachings, the allegations are inconsistent with fundamental Falun Gong beliefs. As to OhConfucius's suggestion that Li has a publicly declared animosity toward Sima Nan, I can't find any evidence of that. The website where all of Li's teachings are published contains not one reference to Sima Nan. [1] That Sima's claims about Li Hongzhi was apparently repeated by a partisan source (Hitchens) does not make it more credible or notable. (I am temporarily without LexisNexis access, so can't find the text of the Hitchens article to assess the context. Regardless, I understand the article was largely a profile of Sima, based on lengthy interviews with him). If Li actually said these things he is quoted as saying here, then they should be sourced directly to Li (not Hitchens, not Sima Nan) per WP:RS, which states:
The call for additional corroboration, particularly for exceptional claims (which this is), is also demanded under WP:V: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." If you wish to take this discussion further, please engage with the relevant policies, rather than commenting on the unpredictability of religious leaders. Homunculus ( duihua) 06:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Can this idiot's tangling with an escalator (and losing) in the US be added? Thx. 218.103.114.186 ( talk) 02:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have restored this interview:
where Sima explains why he dislikes qigong masters and why he specially dislikes the Falun Gong leader. If a reader wants to understand what Sima thinks, this is the sort of material that would be helpful for that reader. Despite the title, Sima also talks about qi gong masters in general.
Maybe someone wants to move it to external links because it's not strictly a secondary source? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
(by the way, my bad, facts.org.cn is not the Chinese equivalent of CSICOP, the actual equivalents are listed here. facts.org.cn is a compilation of information negative on Falun Gong) -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Note that the above user has been banned under [2] for pro-Falun Gong activism, so his edits are removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.207.26 ( talk) 15:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Sima Nan is a loudly pro-regime, anti-superstition pundit. For this reason, Falun Gong's newspaper The Epoch Times is not a reliable source here. He hates them and they hate him. Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 11:58, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | A fact from Sima Nan appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 27 October 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Falun Gong, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
I am deleting the following from the page, as it stands in violation of WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP:
This is an exceptional claim by all definitions, and would require multiple reliable sources to remain in the article. It is a "surprising or apparently important claim not covered by multiple mainstream sources" in that it originates from an interview with Sima Nan on a Chinese government websites, and was not widely reported in mainstream sources. It is also a "challenged claim...supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"—again, it was originally self-published by Sima Nan and Chinese government websites. Christopher Hitchens repeated the allegations after interviewing Sima, and Hitchens arguably had a conflict of interest as well (or is, at a minimum, a highly partisan source). Sima has never presented any evidence to substantiate the claim that Li Hongzhi said this, and in interviews with Chinese government websites, he essentially admitted that it was hearsay. Finally, it is a report "of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended," which is also "contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community... that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in ... biographies of living people." In a previous discussion in which this was hashed out, a Falun Gong editor noted that the notion of a falun "revolving in the wrong direction" is contradicted by statements from Li himself, who states that the falun naturally rotates in both directions, and is only provided to "genuine practitioners" of Falun Gong. Therefore, the the notion that Li would make the statements alleged by Sima Nan would fundamentally alter the understanding of Falun Gong's teachings, and possibly of Li's own character.
Moreover, per WP:RS on quotations, if we are quoting someone (as this paragraph does), the quote should be sourced to the person him or herself, rather than to their self-proclaimed antagonists. WP:BLP is very clear about this kind of thing as well.
I am also removing the phrase which states that Sima supported the suppression of Falun Gong because it is a fraud. It is not appropriate to make such statements in Wikipedia's voice. Homunculus ( duihua) 15:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
From a previous discussion, here's the source of this claim. In an interview with a Chinese government website dedicated to propagandizing against Falun Gong, Sima stated the following:
Essentially, Sima is saying that the statements allegedly made by Li Hongzhi were a matter of hearsay relayed to him in a (possibly anonymous?) letter. In other words, it is a self-published source making dubious claims about a third party without evidence. That's not good enough to warrant inclusion here. Again, according to people who actually have familiarity with Li Hongzhi's teachings, the allegations are inconsistent with fundamental Falun Gong beliefs. As to OhConfucius's suggestion that Li has a publicly declared animosity toward Sima Nan, I can't find any evidence of that. The website where all of Li's teachings are published contains not one reference to Sima Nan. [1] That Sima's claims about Li Hongzhi was apparently repeated by a partisan source (Hitchens) does not make it more credible or notable. (I am temporarily without LexisNexis access, so can't find the text of the Hitchens article to assess the context. Regardless, I understand the article was largely a profile of Sima, based on lengthy interviews with him). If Li actually said these things he is quoted as saying here, then they should be sourced directly to Li (not Hitchens, not Sima Nan) per WP:RS, which states:
The call for additional corroboration, particularly for exceptional claims (which this is), is also demanded under WP:V: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." If you wish to take this discussion further, please engage with the relevant policies, rather than commenting on the unpredictability of religious leaders. Homunculus ( duihua) 06:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Can this idiot's tangling with an escalator (and losing) in the US be added? Thx. 218.103.114.186 ( talk) 02:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have restored this interview:
where Sima explains why he dislikes qigong masters and why he specially dislikes the Falun Gong leader. If a reader wants to understand what Sima thinks, this is the sort of material that would be helpful for that reader. Despite the title, Sima also talks about qi gong masters in general.
Maybe someone wants to move it to external links because it's not strictly a secondary source? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
(by the way, my bad, facts.org.cn is not the Chinese equivalent of CSICOP, the actual equivalents are listed here. facts.org.cn is a compilation of information negative on Falun Gong) -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Note that the above user has been banned under [2] for pro-Falun Gong activism, so his edits are removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.207.26 ( talk) 15:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Sima Nan is a loudly pro-regime, anti-superstition pundit. For this reason, Falun Gong's newspaper The Epoch Times is not a reliable source here. He hates them and they hate him. Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 11:58, 17 January 2014 (UTC)