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@ User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus
Anyone interested in S. Žukauskas' biography should feel like a detective - even the essential facts about his date of birth, place or even origin are not clear. The most common date of birth is December 31, 1860, but there are other dates in S. Žukauskas' military service documents and other sources - 1861, 1864, 1865. Disputes also arise over the place of birth. There is no doubt that S. Žukauskas was born in a small settlement in the Pakruojis area, but the exact location in historical sources differs: sometimes Dovainiškis is mentioned, sometimes - Paoškočiai. A certain prevailing interpretation is established by the memorial monument built in Dovainiškis village in 1995, on which it is written: “The first commander of the Lithuanian Armed Forces, gener. Silvestras Žukauskas (1860–1937). ”Questions also arise about its origin. Apparently, S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest stratum of the aristocracy and had Polish roots.
Read more: [1] © Lithuanian news GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC) I’ll add that most of the above is covered in the article already - GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
My understanding is - the info is not %100 clear/without doubts, as stated in sources and the article itself. Most likely, he was a descendant of some Polish Nobels, but as sources say, nobody is %100 sure. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Lead too long - strikethrough should be moved to the articles body:
Silvestras Žukauskas (
Polish: Sylwester Żukowski,
Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский,
romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860
[nb 1] – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the
Imperial Russian Army and later in the
Lithuanian Army. He was the
Chief Commander of the Lithuanian Army three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928. One of his contemporaries,
Vincas Grigaliūnas-Glovackis , called Žukauskas as "of Polish culture" and "close to Poles and Russians".
[1] Historians have noted Žukauskas' sympathy towards Poland.
[2] According to Mykolas Varnas, although a lot about Žukauskas is a mystery, e.g. birthday, birth place and even origins, "it seems as though S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest level of aristocracy and had Polish roots".
[3]
Žukauskas enlisted with the
Imperial Russian Army in 1881. After graduating from
Vilnius Military School, he served in various units and was promoted to
polkovnik (colonel) in 1913. At the start of
World War I, he was given command of the newly-raised 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment. From October 1914 to April 1915, the regiment fought and suffered heavy losses near
Sochaczew in present-day Poland. In May–July 1915, the regiment fought in present-day Lithuania. For the defence of
Šiauliai, Žukauskas was awarded the
Saint George Sword. From August 1915 to July 1917, he commanded men in securing positions along the
Daugava River and approaches to
Daugavpils. In April 1916, Žukauskas became a brigade commander of the
1st Infantry Division and was promoted to
major general in November. In May 1917, he became commander of the 1st Infantry Division. When most of the division was captured by the Germans in February 1918, Žukauskas was demobilized.
He returned to Lithuania in April 1919 and immediately became
Chief of the General Staff. He organized a successful offensive against the
invading Soviet forces which pushed them across the
Daugava River by the end of August 1919. He was dismissed from the command due to the
Polish coup d'état attempt – the mutineers planned to install him as a military dictator. Žukauskas likely did not know about the planned coup but he gained a reputation as a Polish sympathizer,
[4] spoke Polish,
[5] and faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 when communist-inspired soldiers mutinied in Kaunas and in October 1920 after Lithuanian forces suffered a loss in the
Battle of Sejny. He organized Lithuanian defence against the
Żeligowski's Mutiny and commanded Lithuanian forces in the battles near
Giedraičiai and
Širvintos in November 1920. Despite his critics, he earned a reputation as one of the key figures of the
Lithuanian Wars of Independence.
[6] He resigned from active military duty in June 1921 but was brought back from retirement in June 1923. This time, he was the commander of the Lithuanian Army until January 1928. He focused on improving military discipline and education.
GizzyCatBella
🍁
12:36, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
Well you can look it up for yousefl. But here you go: 1. Glowackis:
Being of Polish culture himself, he was close to Poles and Russians, but very distant from Lithuanians, especially those who did not bow down to him and deify him. (...) He protected the Poles, the Russians and those Lithuanians who adored and adored him. He rewarded Lithuania with the organisers of POW [Polish Military Organisations]: the Otockis, Dzengelevskis, Beneševičius, Ramanauskas (...) As Lithuania's representative to the Niesel Commission, he favoured the French and Poles over the Lithuanians (...) Perhaps the fact that he married his daughter to a Polish officer and made his son a Polish officer could also be counted among the "merits" of this commander. If a writer thought of writing about Žukauskas' loyalty to the cards and the girls, he would find plenty of material, but it is absurd to write about his loyalty and his merits for Lithuania.
2. Kilinskas:
The historian Piotr Łossowski has noticed that General Žukauskas was blamed for being well disposed towards Poland. It should be admitted that this claim is well grounded. It is revealed by several aspects of the activities of General Žukauskas. The pro-Polish views of the general caused dissatisfaction among Lithuanian officers,40 followed by the dismissal of General Žukauskas41 and his adjutants from the army on 26 September 1919.42 However, General Žukauskas was steadfast in standing up for his dismissed aide-de-camps, and actively supported and defended Colonel Vojtekūnas in the trial of POW members in December 1920. Thus, he indirectly confirmed his earlier favourable political preferences for Poland.
3. Article linked by you:
Apparently, S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest stratum of the aristocracy and had Polish roots.
Marcelus ( talk) 09:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Being of Polish culture himself+
close to Poles and Russians, but very distant from Lithuanians+
he favoured the French and Poles over the Lithuanians+
married daughter to a Polish officer and made his son a Polish officer
blamed for being well disposed towards Poland+
pro-Polish views of the general+
favourable political preferences for Poland
Apparently, S. Žukauskas' .... had Polish roots.
Which source says Žukauskas was of Polish origins? If you came to an unquestionable conclusion summing together the info above, then that might be WP:OR in my opinion. His attachment to Poland is already reported in the article's body per sources. Honestly, I don't understand why you insist but as I said, I'm not God. Get some more eyes here maybe. I might ask for the opinion of others myself too. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 09:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
@ User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus
Well, I asked, here is one more view on the matter --> [2] - GizzyCatBella 🍁 16:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Why don’t you two fellows User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus meet halfway and rebuild some of the lead info together? But not as it was previously, as it was too long-drawn. See section below (New Lead proposal) - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:55, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Follow Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section (Post draft below) GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Silvestras Žukauskas ( Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 [nb 1] – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army, where he distinguished himself during World War I, rising to the rank of divisional commander, and later in the Lithuanian Army, whose Chief Commander he was three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928.
Žukauskas joined the Imperial Russian Army in 1881, studying in the Vilnius Military School from 1883 to 1887, reaching the rank of polkovnik in 1913. When World War I started, he commanded the new 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment, fighting at its head in present-day Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. He was demobilized in February 1918, when Germans captured most of the 1st Infantry Division which he commanded.
In early 1919, as Chief of the General Staff of the newly recreated Lithuanian Army, he pushed the invading Soviet forces out of Lithuania by the end of August 1919 with a successful offensive. However, he was dismissed from command as the Polish coup d'état attempt's organizers planned to make him a military dictator. Although Žukauskas was likely unaware about this, he was known as a Polish sympathizer, [1] speaking Polish, [2] and generally faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 after communist-inspired soldier's mutiny in Kaunas and in October 1920 following the Lithuanian defeat in the Battle of Sejny. He commanded Lithuanian forces fighting against Żeligowski's Mutiny in Autumn 1920. He is reputed as a key figure in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. [3] He resigned from active military duty in June 1921, being brought back from retirement in June 1923 as the Lithuanian Army's commander until January 1928.
References
I am open to suggestions on what to change and remove.-- Cukrakalnis ( talk) 19:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Silvestras Žukauskas ( Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 [nb 1] – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army, where he distinguished himself during World War I, rising to the rank of major general and ending the war as divisional commander, and later in the Lithuanian Army, whose Chief Commander he was three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928.
Žukauskas joined the Imperial Russian Army in 1881, studying in the Vilnius Military School from 1883 to 1887, reaching the rank of polkovnik in 1913. When World War I started, he commanded the new 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment, fighting at its head in present-day Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. He was demobilized in February 1918, when Germans captured most of the 1st Infantry Division which he commanded.
In early 1919, as Chief of the General Staff of the newly recreated Lithuanian Army, he pushed the invading Soviet forces out of Lithuania by the end of August 1919 with a successful offensive. However, he was dismissed from command as the Polish coup d'état attempt's organizers planned to make him a military dictator. Although Žukauskas was likely unaware about this, he was known as a Polish sympathizer, [1] speaking Polish, [2] and generally faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 after communist-inspired soldier's mutiny in Kaunas and in October 1920 following the Lithuanian defeat in the Battle of Sejny. He commanded Lithuanian forces fighting against Żeligowski's Mutiny in Autumn 1920. He is reputed as a key figure in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. [3] He resigned from active military duty in June 1921, being brought back from retirement in June 1923 as the Lithuanian Army's commander until January 1928.
In 1927, on the 40 year anniversary of Žukauskas becoming an officer, the government gifted him the Davalgonys estate near Ramučiai, which was frequently visited by Lithuania's president Antanas Smetona and his wife. [4] During this final retirement, Žukauskas became a founder of Amlit and its nominal manager. [5] The company built bicycles, cars, buses and car garages. [6]
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
I've added the first two suggestions. I'll find something for Lituano-Slavica Posnaniensia.-- Cukrakalnis ( talk) 21:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=nb>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=nb}}
template (see the
help page).
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Silvestras Žukauskas article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@ User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus
Anyone interested in S. Žukauskas' biography should feel like a detective - even the essential facts about his date of birth, place or even origin are not clear. The most common date of birth is December 31, 1860, but there are other dates in S. Žukauskas' military service documents and other sources - 1861, 1864, 1865. Disputes also arise over the place of birth. There is no doubt that S. Žukauskas was born in a small settlement in the Pakruojis area, but the exact location in historical sources differs: sometimes Dovainiškis is mentioned, sometimes - Paoškočiai. A certain prevailing interpretation is established by the memorial monument built in Dovainiškis village in 1995, on which it is written: “The first commander of the Lithuanian Armed Forces, gener. Silvestras Žukauskas (1860–1937). ”Questions also arise about its origin. Apparently, S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest stratum of the aristocracy and had Polish roots.
Read more: [1] © Lithuanian news GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC) I’ll add that most of the above is covered in the article already - GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
My understanding is - the info is not %100 clear/without doubts, as stated in sources and the article itself. Most likely, he was a descendant of some Polish Nobels, but as sources say, nobody is %100 sure. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Lead too long - strikethrough should be moved to the articles body:
Silvestras Žukauskas (
Polish: Sylwester Żukowski,
Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский,
romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860
[nb 1] – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the
Imperial Russian Army and later in the
Lithuanian Army. He was the
Chief Commander of the Lithuanian Army three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928. One of his contemporaries,
Vincas Grigaliūnas-Glovackis , called Žukauskas as "of Polish culture" and "close to Poles and Russians".
[1] Historians have noted Žukauskas' sympathy towards Poland.
[2] According to Mykolas Varnas, although a lot about Žukauskas is a mystery, e.g. birthday, birth place and even origins, "it seems as though S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest level of aristocracy and had Polish roots".
[3]
Žukauskas enlisted with the
Imperial Russian Army in 1881. After graduating from
Vilnius Military School, he served in various units and was promoted to
polkovnik (colonel) in 1913. At the start of
World War I, he was given command of the newly-raised 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment. From October 1914 to April 1915, the regiment fought and suffered heavy losses near
Sochaczew in present-day Poland. In May–July 1915, the regiment fought in present-day Lithuania. For the defence of
Šiauliai, Žukauskas was awarded the
Saint George Sword. From August 1915 to July 1917, he commanded men in securing positions along the
Daugava River and approaches to
Daugavpils. In April 1916, Žukauskas became a brigade commander of the
1st Infantry Division and was promoted to
major general in November. In May 1917, he became commander of the 1st Infantry Division. When most of the division was captured by the Germans in February 1918, Žukauskas was demobilized.
He returned to Lithuania in April 1919 and immediately became
Chief of the General Staff. He organized a successful offensive against the
invading Soviet forces which pushed them across the
Daugava River by the end of August 1919. He was dismissed from the command due to the
Polish coup d'état attempt – the mutineers planned to install him as a military dictator. Žukauskas likely did not know about the planned coup but he gained a reputation as a Polish sympathizer,
[4] spoke Polish,
[5] and faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 when communist-inspired soldiers mutinied in Kaunas and in October 1920 after Lithuanian forces suffered a loss in the
Battle of Sejny. He organized Lithuanian defence against the
Żeligowski's Mutiny and commanded Lithuanian forces in the battles near
Giedraičiai and
Širvintos in November 1920. Despite his critics, he earned a reputation as one of the key figures of the
Lithuanian Wars of Independence.
[6] He resigned from active military duty in June 1921 but was brought back from retirement in June 1923. This time, he was the commander of the Lithuanian Army until January 1928. He focused on improving military discipline and education.
GizzyCatBella
🍁
12:36, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
Well you can look it up for yousefl. But here you go: 1. Glowackis:
Being of Polish culture himself, he was close to Poles and Russians, but very distant from Lithuanians, especially those who did not bow down to him and deify him. (...) He protected the Poles, the Russians and those Lithuanians who adored and adored him. He rewarded Lithuania with the organisers of POW [Polish Military Organisations]: the Otockis, Dzengelevskis, Beneševičius, Ramanauskas (...) As Lithuania's representative to the Niesel Commission, he favoured the French and Poles over the Lithuanians (...) Perhaps the fact that he married his daughter to a Polish officer and made his son a Polish officer could also be counted among the "merits" of this commander. If a writer thought of writing about Žukauskas' loyalty to the cards and the girls, he would find plenty of material, but it is absurd to write about his loyalty and his merits for Lithuania.
2. Kilinskas:
The historian Piotr Łossowski has noticed that General Žukauskas was blamed for being well disposed towards Poland. It should be admitted that this claim is well grounded. It is revealed by several aspects of the activities of General Žukauskas. The pro-Polish views of the general caused dissatisfaction among Lithuanian officers,40 followed by the dismissal of General Žukauskas41 and his adjutants from the army on 26 September 1919.42 However, General Žukauskas was steadfast in standing up for his dismissed aide-de-camps, and actively supported and defended Colonel Vojtekūnas in the trial of POW members in December 1920. Thus, he indirectly confirmed his earlier favourable political preferences for Poland.
3. Article linked by you:
Apparently, S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest stratum of the aristocracy and had Polish roots.
Marcelus ( talk) 09:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Being of Polish culture himself+
close to Poles and Russians, but very distant from Lithuanians+
he favoured the French and Poles over the Lithuanians+
married daughter to a Polish officer and made his son a Polish officer
blamed for being well disposed towards Poland+
pro-Polish views of the general+
favourable political preferences for Poland
Apparently, S. Žukauskas' .... had Polish roots.
Which source says Žukauskas was of Polish origins? If you came to an unquestionable conclusion summing together the info above, then that might be WP:OR in my opinion. His attachment to Poland is already reported in the article's body per sources. Honestly, I don't understand why you insist but as I said, I'm not God. Get some more eyes here maybe. I might ask for the opinion of others myself too. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 09:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
@ User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus
Well, I asked, here is one more view on the matter --> [2] - GizzyCatBella 🍁 16:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Why don’t you two fellows User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus meet halfway and rebuild some of the lead info together? But not as it was previously, as it was too long-drawn. See section below (New Lead proposal) - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:55, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Follow Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section (Post draft below) GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Silvestras Žukauskas ( Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 [nb 1] – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army, where he distinguished himself during World War I, rising to the rank of divisional commander, and later in the Lithuanian Army, whose Chief Commander he was three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928.
Žukauskas joined the Imperial Russian Army in 1881, studying in the Vilnius Military School from 1883 to 1887, reaching the rank of polkovnik in 1913. When World War I started, he commanded the new 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment, fighting at its head in present-day Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. He was demobilized in February 1918, when Germans captured most of the 1st Infantry Division which he commanded.
In early 1919, as Chief of the General Staff of the newly recreated Lithuanian Army, he pushed the invading Soviet forces out of Lithuania by the end of August 1919 with a successful offensive. However, he was dismissed from command as the Polish coup d'état attempt's organizers planned to make him a military dictator. Although Žukauskas was likely unaware about this, he was known as a Polish sympathizer, [1] speaking Polish, [2] and generally faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 after communist-inspired soldier's mutiny in Kaunas and in October 1920 following the Lithuanian defeat in the Battle of Sejny. He commanded Lithuanian forces fighting against Żeligowski's Mutiny in Autumn 1920. He is reputed as a key figure in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. [3] He resigned from active military duty in June 1921, being brought back from retirement in June 1923 as the Lithuanian Army's commander until January 1928.
References
I am open to suggestions on what to change and remove.-- Cukrakalnis ( talk) 19:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Silvestras Žukauskas ( Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 [nb 1] – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army, where he distinguished himself during World War I, rising to the rank of major general and ending the war as divisional commander, and later in the Lithuanian Army, whose Chief Commander he was three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928.
Žukauskas joined the Imperial Russian Army in 1881, studying in the Vilnius Military School from 1883 to 1887, reaching the rank of polkovnik in 1913. When World War I started, he commanded the new 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment, fighting at its head in present-day Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. He was demobilized in February 1918, when Germans captured most of the 1st Infantry Division which he commanded.
In early 1919, as Chief of the General Staff of the newly recreated Lithuanian Army, he pushed the invading Soviet forces out of Lithuania by the end of August 1919 with a successful offensive. However, he was dismissed from command as the Polish coup d'état attempt's organizers planned to make him a military dictator. Although Žukauskas was likely unaware about this, he was known as a Polish sympathizer, [1] speaking Polish, [2] and generally faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 after communist-inspired soldier's mutiny in Kaunas and in October 1920 following the Lithuanian defeat in the Battle of Sejny. He commanded Lithuanian forces fighting against Żeligowski's Mutiny in Autumn 1920. He is reputed as a key figure in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. [3] He resigned from active military duty in June 1921, being brought back from retirement in June 1923 as the Lithuanian Army's commander until January 1928.
In 1927, on the 40 year anniversary of Žukauskas becoming an officer, the government gifted him the Davalgonys estate near Ramučiai, which was frequently visited by Lithuania's president Antanas Smetona and his wife. [4] During this final retirement, Žukauskas became a founder of Amlit and its nominal manager. [5] The company built bicycles, cars, buses and car garages. [6]
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
I've added the first two suggestions. I'll find something for Lituano-Slavica Posnaniensia.-- Cukrakalnis ( talk) 21:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=nb>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=nb}}
template (see the
help page).