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Anyone prepared to do a chart based on retrospective world rankings for Barnes's career? Also, does the existing chart for his career performances look clunky to anyone else? Can't put my finger on what's wrong with it... except the blue line indicator for such a short career might be based on fewer recent innings. -- Dweller ( talk) 12:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
A few new photos now at commons:Category:Sid Barnes, including a nice one as a 16 year old. — Moondyne 14:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I think its pretty obvious it was in protest, this supports it, by saying that he asked to be 12th man, this was also repeated in: The Fifty Greatest by Inside Edge of ACP Publishing, 2001.
I have a series of 6 images from the article above, which show Sid batting, the best one is probably of him going forward into a defense or off-drive. The second best is probably him in the position of waiting for the ball to be delivered. The issue with the images is that they appear to be of him in later life and in non-match conditions. They are PD, because they are pre-55.
might also be worth noting that (from magazine above):
...Hope this helps. Twenty Years 02:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Spelling of the bloke's name varies here and at Keith Johnson. -- Dweller ( talk) 10:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
This is in the article referring to the concession of the libel case:
"Shand commented to the court, “... seldom in the history of libel actions has such a plea failed so completely and utterly.”[23]"
Barnes' own book, It Isn't Cricket, says these words were spoken by Raith's barrister, Smyth, as part of his address to the jury, and not by Jack Shand. Smyth went on to ask the jury to be lenient in the amount of damages they awarded: "All I ask is that there is not reflected against my client by your verdict the contempt that you and every decent citizen must feel for those members of the Board who, upon such silly, trivial grounds, excluded Barnes from the Australian eleven... My client foolishly, as it turns out, believed that this Board was an impartial body of cricket administrators. You can well imagine what Mr Raith thinks of those gentlemen now."
Barnes' book was published a year after the libel trial and acknowledges Shand's help in its preparation. A lot of the coverage of the trial reads as if it was taken verbatim from court notes. Johnlp 09:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 12:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
According to Barnes, Raith agreed to pay Barnes' "taxed costs" and the judge discharged the jury. The judge said: "The plaintiff was not seeking to recover sums of money, but to clear his name. This case has resulted in such a clearance and there will be nothing for you to determine." So no damages were paid. Johnlp 13:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 15:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The article is now getting close to readiness for FA. This is my suggested to-do list for next steps. Please sign up against the points if you're prepared to do it.
Once we've done that lot, the following steps kick in:
That should do the trick. Feel free to insert any steps I've missed. -- Dweller 10:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
For information: Have copied up to /including the Libel case. Will finish off when I get a bit of time. I'll check through the refs afterwards too. One point from a quick glance - I don't like the stats analysis section much. There are 2 big graphs without much text to explain them. In particular, what is 'fall off', and how can I see it from the graph? – MDCollins ( talk) 16:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Finished the copyedit, I'm happy to give it another before the FAC. I've commented out the stats analysis, as it doesn't add much for now. All the references are now correct, although I don't normally use the citation templates, so forgive me if some aren't quite how you would do them! BTW, I went with "Barnes's", as that was quoted in one of the blockquotes, but restructured most instances so it wasn't a problem. It was inconsistent before, and I was taught that monosyllable names ending in s can take 's, and polysyllables just use the '.
Some points:
Other than that, it is an excellent article, and won't take long to finish up. I'll be back, and keeping an eye on it. – MDCollins ( talk) 02:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 01:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
In a strange decision, the New South Wales Cricket Association deemed the matches to be not of first-class status and Barnes was denied his maiden century again.
Re "His batting average of 63.05 in Test cricket places him as one of the finest batsmen in cricketing history", IMHO, 13 Tests is too small a sample for a bold statement like that. There are several batsmen who had bright starts and then fell away (like Jimmy Adams who was at 80+ till his 16th Test). Tintin 06:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Barnes played little cricket until 1945–46, when he scored centuries in six successive matches for New South Wales.[21]
"During the second Test against England at Sydney in December 1946, he made a lasting impression on the world game, with a top score of 234 helping to set a world-record 405-run fifth wicket partnership with Don Bradman, a record that still stands today."
Break down the sentence. Tone down "lasting impression on the world game". "With a top score of 234" doesn't read well. Tintin 07:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Phanto's comments, and also feel it is a bit light on the details of his actual Test career. Have done a bit to add some material to the 1938 tour section, and will look to do more on the 1945-46 and 1946-47 series too. A continuing theme throughout his autobiography is the need to earn money and maybe some more on this side of him would be good: he turned down the tour of South Africa in 1949-50, for instance, because it would only bring him £450 and he would need to pay his own expenses, and he played Lancashire League cricket in 1947 despite worrying that other Australians who had done so were never selected for Tests again. His first two children, by the way, were called Helen and Sid jr. Johnlp ( talk) 22:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 ( talk) 11:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Re the South African tour, Barnes writes (in It Isn't Cricket): "I was anxious to play in another game that season. This was the Kippax-Oldfield Testimonial game in Sydney, which followed the Melbourne one. But I wasn't chosen! I didn't mind that, however. The selectors came to me and said the game was to be treated as a trial match on which to choose the Australian team for the 1949-50 tour of South Africa. They asked me whether I was available for that tour. My reply was an instant 'No, I can't afford it', and so I didn't get a place in the Sydney Testimonial game. ... I had given thought to this South African tour—but not much. Here was the position. I was a married man with a wife and two children... We were offered £450 out-of-pocket expenses for the South African tour. We were to leave Australia early in October and return the following end of March. I could not possibly afford to go off on a six months' jaunt on £450, with expenses to pay on the tour and at home, and I don't know how any other married member of the side could afford it either." (pp185-6)
On his departure from the Lancashire League: "My wife and family had now arrived in England and I was finding the League cricket too much of a drag. I was anxious to cut adrift. They had good weather, big attendances and were now out of the financial drag in which they found themselves at the beginning of the season. I therefore asked them to accept a week's notice of the termination of the contract. I am sure they were well pleased with my association with them, though they didn't want me to go. I always look back on that Lancashire League engagement as one of the most interesting periods of my life. The people in Manchester are kind and generous." (p146).
And a bit later (p147) :I wouldn't have missed my experiences in Lancashire for quids. Bradman was booked for Rochdale in 1930 as a professional and the experience would have done him the world of good. He pulled out at the last moment. It does no harm to Australian cricketers for them to play in the off-season in England. They make money that they would never see in Australia." Johnlp ( talk) 22:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The author of the obituary used in the article is listed as Gideon Haigh. As Barnes' obituary would have been included in the 1974 Wisden, it is unlikely that Haigh wrote the obituary (unless he was an unusually precocious child). Looking at the source it is perhaps more likely that the section in cricinfo is cribbed partly from the Wisden obit freshened up slightly by Haigh at a later date. The actual Wisden obit can be found here. There does not seem to me to be too much difference between the two versions but I am not sure who the author is. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 16:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I added Haigh when I copied edited in the hope of finding a complete reference. Should have thought that one through! – MDCollins ( talk) 16:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
While there is probably some things that still need doing and there are some cite tags that need removing it may be time to list at WP:GAC. Any problems would be able to be fixed while it was waiting for a reviewer and some fresh eyes would help propel the article to FA status. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 10:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Further to the message above, could everyone as a priority try to deal with the remaining {{cn}} tags, so that this can go to PR? Thanks. -- Dweller ( talk) 14:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I added to the section about his style by quoting Robinson's Artful Dodger essay, which focusses on his post-war approach; I removed a couple of bits I thought weren't very descriptive and some repetition. IMO, it needs a copy-edit by someone who can concentrate on the flow of the prose (ie. search for repetition, continuity, consistency) due to the fact it has had so many editors' input and it kind of reads like it. BTW 'Suicide Sid' is still in the infobox? Phanto282 ( talk) 01:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Following issues have arisen:
More to follow if/when they come up. -- Dweller ( talk) 16:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Copyedit is now complete. I'm going to start amending based on qs+as above and then list at Peer Review, probably on Monday. -- Dweller ( talk) 16:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
These issues were covered further up the page. Haigh quotes Bradman as saying it was a set-up for Raith to write the letter; evidence points that way. Ridings replaced Bradman as selector as he was from SA. The other selectors were keen to have Ridings make the 53 tour, but Ridings refused. He went on to be Chairman of the ACB. BTW, the recent copy-edit now shows Barnes as apologising for the 12th man incident, but this is not so. The NSWCA forwarded an apology on his behalf, after supporting him throughout the libel case, which shows Barnes' contrary nature and why he later lost a lot of friends and the support of the public that he gained through the libel case. Re a source for the name the Invincibles, I believe there was a court case (or some form of legal action) a few years back where Cricket Australia sued a company over the use of the name. I will search for it & get back in a couple of days. The source given for the quote "an awful image of the chaos and bigotry under which Australian cricket was administered" is from note 60, which is Harte quoting Raith's counsel.
Phanto282 ( talk) 08:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a single RS page that pulls together an answer to my Q4? If not, no worries. -- Dweller ( talk) 11:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Was there any reason it was deleted? Blnguyen ( bananabucket) 23:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Section and graphs reinstated. My initial copy is probably a bit naff. Feel free to edit viciously. -- Dweller ( talk) 13:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The above was a redlink in this article. I have created a rather ordinary stub in case it was used as a reason to oppose in FA but it could do with some work if others have access to better source material. Cheers, Mattinbgn\ talk 10:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I have copied and refactored some of the comments from the FAC page here for ease of review and to allow some comment from me rather than have comments left by a range of contributors on the FAC, where I think Dweller is best to respond.
Hurricanehank
I changed the img chart to a template with links. I think this is an improvement, even if it is a bit bigger. I'm not too bothered though if people prefer the smaller graph. — Moondyne 14:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The infobox uses NSW and New South Wales in the born and died, shouldnt it be either:
I have removed two categories that were added within the past 48 hours - relating to Drug-related suicides and Suicides in Australia - on the basis that the inquest evidence was inconclusive. I have left in the category of Drug-related deaths, on the basis that that doesn't seem in dispute. Perhaps others might have different views? I'm mindful that Barnes' offspring are still alive. Johnlp ( talk) 21:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Later: I took out the other "suicide" categories too, as unproven. "Self-administered" and "suicide" are not the same, I reckon. Johnlp ( talk) 21:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
A discussion about the conflicting dates of birth in the Lead and infobox is currently under way at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket#Sid_Barnes_on_the_main_page -- Dweller ( talk) 09:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | Sid Barnes is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 23, 2010. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Anyone prepared to do a chart based on retrospective world rankings for Barnes's career? Also, does the existing chart for his career performances look clunky to anyone else? Can't put my finger on what's wrong with it... except the blue line indicator for such a short career might be based on fewer recent innings. -- Dweller ( talk) 12:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
A few new photos now at commons:Category:Sid Barnes, including a nice one as a 16 year old. — Moondyne 14:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I think its pretty obvious it was in protest, this supports it, by saying that he asked to be 12th man, this was also repeated in: The Fifty Greatest by Inside Edge of ACP Publishing, 2001.
I have a series of 6 images from the article above, which show Sid batting, the best one is probably of him going forward into a defense or off-drive. The second best is probably him in the position of waiting for the ball to be delivered. The issue with the images is that they appear to be of him in later life and in non-match conditions. They are PD, because they are pre-55.
might also be worth noting that (from magazine above):
...Hope this helps. Twenty Years 02:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Spelling of the bloke's name varies here and at Keith Johnson. -- Dweller ( talk) 10:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
This is in the article referring to the concession of the libel case:
"Shand commented to the court, “... seldom in the history of libel actions has such a plea failed so completely and utterly.”[23]"
Barnes' own book, It Isn't Cricket, says these words were spoken by Raith's barrister, Smyth, as part of his address to the jury, and not by Jack Shand. Smyth went on to ask the jury to be lenient in the amount of damages they awarded: "All I ask is that there is not reflected against my client by your verdict the contempt that you and every decent citizen must feel for those members of the Board who, upon such silly, trivial grounds, excluded Barnes from the Australian eleven... My client foolishly, as it turns out, believed that this Board was an impartial body of cricket administrators. You can well imagine what Mr Raith thinks of those gentlemen now."
Barnes' book was published a year after the libel trial and acknowledges Shand's help in its preparation. A lot of the coverage of the trial reads as if it was taken verbatim from court notes. Johnlp 09:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 12:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
According to Barnes, Raith agreed to pay Barnes' "taxed costs" and the judge discharged the jury. The judge said: "The plaintiff was not seeking to recover sums of money, but to clear his name. This case has resulted in such a clearance and there will be nothing for you to determine." So no damages were paid. Johnlp 13:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 15:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The article is now getting close to readiness for FA. This is my suggested to-do list for next steps. Please sign up against the points if you're prepared to do it.
Once we've done that lot, the following steps kick in:
That should do the trick. Feel free to insert any steps I've missed. -- Dweller 10:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
For information: Have copied up to /including the Libel case. Will finish off when I get a bit of time. I'll check through the refs afterwards too. One point from a quick glance - I don't like the stats analysis section much. There are 2 big graphs without much text to explain them. In particular, what is 'fall off', and how can I see it from the graph? – MDCollins ( talk) 16:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Finished the copyedit, I'm happy to give it another before the FAC. I've commented out the stats analysis, as it doesn't add much for now. All the references are now correct, although I don't normally use the citation templates, so forgive me if some aren't quite how you would do them! BTW, I went with "Barnes's", as that was quoted in one of the blockquotes, but restructured most instances so it wasn't a problem. It was inconsistent before, and I was taught that monosyllable names ending in s can take 's, and polysyllables just use the '.
Some points:
Other than that, it is an excellent article, and won't take long to finish up. I'll be back, and keeping an eye on it. – MDCollins ( talk) 02:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 01:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
In a strange decision, the New South Wales Cricket Association deemed the matches to be not of first-class status and Barnes was denied his maiden century again.
Re "His batting average of 63.05 in Test cricket places him as one of the finest batsmen in cricketing history", IMHO, 13 Tests is too small a sample for a bold statement like that. There are several batsmen who had bright starts and then fell away (like Jimmy Adams who was at 80+ till his 16th Test). Tintin 06:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Barnes played little cricket until 1945–46, when he scored centuries in six successive matches for New South Wales.[21]
"During the second Test against England at Sydney in December 1946, he made a lasting impression on the world game, with a top score of 234 helping to set a world-record 405-run fifth wicket partnership with Don Bradman, a record that still stands today."
Break down the sentence. Tone down "lasting impression on the world game". "With a top score of 234" doesn't read well. Tintin 07:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Phanto's comments, and also feel it is a bit light on the details of his actual Test career. Have done a bit to add some material to the 1938 tour section, and will look to do more on the 1945-46 and 1946-47 series too. A continuing theme throughout his autobiography is the need to earn money and maybe some more on this side of him would be good: he turned down the tour of South Africa in 1949-50, for instance, because it would only bring him £450 and he would need to pay his own expenses, and he played Lancashire League cricket in 1947 despite worrying that other Australians who had done so were never selected for Tests again. His first two children, by the way, were called Helen and Sid jr. Johnlp ( talk) 22:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Phanto282 ( talk) 11:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Re the South African tour, Barnes writes (in It Isn't Cricket): "I was anxious to play in another game that season. This was the Kippax-Oldfield Testimonial game in Sydney, which followed the Melbourne one. But I wasn't chosen! I didn't mind that, however. The selectors came to me and said the game was to be treated as a trial match on which to choose the Australian team for the 1949-50 tour of South Africa. They asked me whether I was available for that tour. My reply was an instant 'No, I can't afford it', and so I didn't get a place in the Sydney Testimonial game. ... I had given thought to this South African tour—but not much. Here was the position. I was a married man with a wife and two children... We were offered £450 out-of-pocket expenses for the South African tour. We were to leave Australia early in October and return the following end of March. I could not possibly afford to go off on a six months' jaunt on £450, with expenses to pay on the tour and at home, and I don't know how any other married member of the side could afford it either." (pp185-6)
On his departure from the Lancashire League: "My wife and family had now arrived in England and I was finding the League cricket too much of a drag. I was anxious to cut adrift. They had good weather, big attendances and were now out of the financial drag in which they found themselves at the beginning of the season. I therefore asked them to accept a week's notice of the termination of the contract. I am sure they were well pleased with my association with them, though they didn't want me to go. I always look back on that Lancashire League engagement as one of the most interesting periods of my life. The people in Manchester are kind and generous." (p146).
And a bit later (p147) :I wouldn't have missed my experiences in Lancashire for quids. Bradman was booked for Rochdale in 1930 as a professional and the experience would have done him the world of good. He pulled out at the last moment. It does no harm to Australian cricketers for them to play in the off-season in England. They make money that they would never see in Australia." Johnlp ( talk) 22:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The author of the obituary used in the article is listed as Gideon Haigh. As Barnes' obituary would have been included in the 1974 Wisden, it is unlikely that Haigh wrote the obituary (unless he was an unusually precocious child). Looking at the source it is perhaps more likely that the section in cricinfo is cribbed partly from the Wisden obit freshened up slightly by Haigh at a later date. The actual Wisden obit can be found here. There does not seem to me to be too much difference between the two versions but I am not sure who the author is. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 16:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I added Haigh when I copied edited in the hope of finding a complete reference. Should have thought that one through! – MDCollins ( talk) 16:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
While there is probably some things that still need doing and there are some cite tags that need removing it may be time to list at WP:GAC. Any problems would be able to be fixed while it was waiting for a reviewer and some fresh eyes would help propel the article to FA status. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 10:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Further to the message above, could everyone as a priority try to deal with the remaining {{cn}} tags, so that this can go to PR? Thanks. -- Dweller ( talk) 14:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I added to the section about his style by quoting Robinson's Artful Dodger essay, which focusses on his post-war approach; I removed a couple of bits I thought weren't very descriptive and some repetition. IMO, it needs a copy-edit by someone who can concentrate on the flow of the prose (ie. search for repetition, continuity, consistency) due to the fact it has had so many editors' input and it kind of reads like it. BTW 'Suicide Sid' is still in the infobox? Phanto282 ( talk) 01:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Following issues have arisen:
More to follow if/when they come up. -- Dweller ( talk) 16:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Copyedit is now complete. I'm going to start amending based on qs+as above and then list at Peer Review, probably on Monday. -- Dweller ( talk) 16:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
These issues were covered further up the page. Haigh quotes Bradman as saying it was a set-up for Raith to write the letter; evidence points that way. Ridings replaced Bradman as selector as he was from SA. The other selectors were keen to have Ridings make the 53 tour, but Ridings refused. He went on to be Chairman of the ACB. BTW, the recent copy-edit now shows Barnes as apologising for the 12th man incident, but this is not so. The NSWCA forwarded an apology on his behalf, after supporting him throughout the libel case, which shows Barnes' contrary nature and why he later lost a lot of friends and the support of the public that he gained through the libel case. Re a source for the name the Invincibles, I believe there was a court case (or some form of legal action) a few years back where Cricket Australia sued a company over the use of the name. I will search for it & get back in a couple of days. The source given for the quote "an awful image of the chaos and bigotry under which Australian cricket was administered" is from note 60, which is Harte quoting Raith's counsel.
Phanto282 ( talk) 08:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a single RS page that pulls together an answer to my Q4? If not, no worries. -- Dweller ( talk) 11:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Was there any reason it was deleted? Blnguyen ( bananabucket) 23:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Section and graphs reinstated. My initial copy is probably a bit naff. Feel free to edit viciously. -- Dweller ( talk) 13:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The above was a redlink in this article. I have created a rather ordinary stub in case it was used as a reason to oppose in FA but it could do with some work if others have access to better source material. Cheers, Mattinbgn\ talk 10:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I have copied and refactored some of the comments from the FAC page here for ease of review and to allow some comment from me rather than have comments left by a range of contributors on the FAC, where I think Dweller is best to respond.
Hurricanehank
I changed the img chart to a template with links. I think this is an improvement, even if it is a bit bigger. I'm not too bothered though if people prefer the smaller graph. — Moondyne 14:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The infobox uses NSW and New South Wales in the born and died, shouldnt it be either:
I have removed two categories that were added within the past 48 hours - relating to Drug-related suicides and Suicides in Australia - on the basis that the inquest evidence was inconclusive. I have left in the category of Drug-related deaths, on the basis that that doesn't seem in dispute. Perhaps others might have different views? I'm mindful that Barnes' offspring are still alive. Johnlp ( talk) 21:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Later: I took out the other "suicide" categories too, as unproven. "Self-administered" and "suicide" are not the same, I reckon. Johnlp ( talk) 21:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
A discussion about the conflicting dates of birth in the Lead and infobox is currently under way at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket#Sid_Barnes_on_the_main_page -- Dweller ( talk) 09:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Sid Barnes. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:25, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
I've read the article and checked its content with the modern Featured Article criteria. I can see no glaring problems and the article looks in good shape. Checking history leads me to believe the article hasn't had substantial content additions or changes, and has been maintained to a greater or lesser degree by interested editors. The talk page was checked and no outstanding issues found.
Problems seen;