![]() | Shut Up and Drive has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shut Up and Drive article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions: Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) → Shut Up and Drive
|
This is not an R&B song!! It´s true that it was nominated for a Grammy in this style, but the song is pop rock! For example, "Rehab" of Amy Winehouse won "Best Female Pop Vocal Perfomance" and it is a soul/jazz song...So it doesn´t mean anything!
You posted Sept. 3, 2007 as due for the release of Shut Up And Drive in UK which you credited this defjam site: http://www.defjam.co.uk/. Pertaining to that, it can be a realiable source however, some links claimed that it will be on 20th of August: http://www.newuksinglereleases.co.uk/. The latters info cant be a false one because the site has been used by many editors and credited many times. BritandBeyonce 12:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The guitar line in this song far more closely resembles Orgy's remake of " Blue Monday" than it does the original. Do the liner notes cite a sample? Chubbles 01:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if where Shut Up And Drive cover had been? Lost? BritandBeyonce 09:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I thought came to me the other day. This single never really got heard of hear in the UK until Umbrella was eventually knocked off by Timbaland's The Way I Are. Could it be justifiable to say Umbrella actually prevented any media attention to this song, thus causing to fail to achieve its maximum potential? 84.69.64.35 19:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)Ginger_Warrior
Should the "Chart Performance" section of the article be expanded; in other words to put more information into that section. Or should it be left the way it is, to prevent what happened to articles such as "Big girls don't cry (Song)" and "Beautiful liar"? 220.101.48.181 8:23, September 21, 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that in most articles the "#" is removed before chart positions; example #3 has been changed to just 3? Or #3 has been changed to "number 3/ number-three". Its just stupid. 220.101.48.181 4:23, October 8, 2007 (UTC)
Image:ShutUpAndDriveVideo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 15:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it isn't a CUrrent anymore because it is #40 now
I think it isn't a CUrrent anymore because it is #40 now
This is a subject that has been raised several times, but in fairness and accordance with Wikipedia policies, I'll open it again here.
Shut Up and Drive won a People Choice Award in 2007 for "Best R&B Song." While it does not fit in the traditional description of R&B, it is not our place as Wikipedians to make that distinction and refuse to recognize an R&B genre tag in the info box, in addition to the seemingly more accurate Pop Rock tag. Charmed36 and I had a rather heated debate (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Charmed36#Shut_Up_and_Drive_2) on this very subject not even one week ago as of the date of this post. An administrator intervened and suggested that my classification of this song as an R&B record in addition to Pop Rock was accurate.
However, as I said, I don't see any harm in opening the question up for more discussion. Please leave your comments here, not my talk page. In the meantime, I would request that the R&B tag not be removed until a consensus can be reached that might suggest it necessary.
Not R&B... Charmed36 ( talk) 17:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I stated many times. High and mighty users think they are right. Charmed36 ( talk) 02:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Listen guys the fact that Rihanna won an award for R&B shows that she is an R&B singer. Her voice has a definite contemporary R&B tone--her voice sounds very urban and if I had my way, I'd label all of her songs R&B!-- Seán Travers ( talk) 21:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)Seán Travers
Shut up and drive's peak in UWC was at #11, then why in this page is listed with a #7? Another thing: this single sold only 2 million copies, not 3,2. Look on UWC site. So it's impossible to have that amazing sales of 3.2 million copies worldwide and a further 200,000 through clubs. 1,18 million copies in the US? The single got Platinum in US? there are too many errors on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.97.4.229 ( talk) 17:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't want this to turn into an edit war,so I'm gonna start a debate about this. We've already had a discussion which ended in allowing the R&B tag,but now we're having a different discussion: Should R&B be listed as the 1st genre? I think it should,for this reason: According to this, only the 1st genre gets capitalized. However,in proper English,R&B is always supposed to have "R" and "B" as capital letters. Therefore,I think that R&B should go 1st to prevent unnecessary capitalization of other genres ( pop rock,in this case). Big T.V. Fan ( talk) 16:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I listen to it all the time. It's pop rock and dance-pop. Charmed36 ( talk) 17:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I feel like I've heard this in a commercial or something… gujamin ( talk) 18:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
You are mean't to provide a source when listing a brand name. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 14:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
is a release history table? You mention the radio and purchasable dates but there is no table for them? Calvin • Watch n' Learn 15:11, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Calvin • Watch n' Learn 16:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I was just wondering if anyone (older than 18) actually read the lyrics and understand that the entire song hasn't anything to do with cars or actual driving? In case you didn't, the song is all about sex.
The article states: "Lyrically, "Shut Up and Drive", as the title suggests, is about Rihanna looking for a driver, who will drive her around in her new car and take control over it."
This entire sentence is complete bullshit, as anyone who actually listened to the song or read the lyrics (and again, is at least old enough to understand sex references) can figure out it's all about sex... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.72.15.16 ( talk) 10:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
What is the BPM? Novalia ( talk) 21:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. I'm sure that it was unintentional, but there's been a blatant violation of WP:CANVASS that has irreversibly skewed this RM. It's a shame really because otherwise this would have almost certainly resulted in a move to the primary topic. I see below that it's been suggested there should be a wait of six months until the next RM – I won't go that far, but will impose a wait of two months until the next RM (an arbitrary time period I know, but so would any I could pick) in the hope that by then the canvassing will have been diluted. In the meantime the article can stay at the current title, which I know will frustrate a few editors, but waiting a few months won't kill anyone and it's not like the current title is inaccurate. Jenks24 ( talk) 13:35, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) →
Shut Up and Drive – I'm pretty sure the majority of people are looking for Rihanna's song when they type in "Shut Up and Drive" - no need for the disambig page, a hatnote should suffice.
Unreal7 (
talk)
13:11, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Closed as improvidently opened.( non-admin closure) Red Slash 04:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) →
Shut Up and Drive – Let's start again.
Unreal7 (
talk)
16:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment - what happens now, close the RM? Unreal7 ( talk) 13:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page not moved: no consensus Ground Zero | t 17:32, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
– The person who closed the last RM said wait two months before proposing another one - it's been three so I just figured it was time to try again. Unreal7 ( talk) 09:20, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. A clear majority of the participants here support the move and their arguments are well backed by the primary topic guideline. Those in support have clearly demonstrated that the Rihanna song meets the usage criterion and this was not countered by those opposing. The point of contention as it were was the long-term significance criterion – this is generally a tough area for closers to adjudicate because it is quite subjective, but in this case I found the opposing arguments to be fairly weak. Primary topic does not exclude pop culture topics, nor does it say that a higher bar should be set for them – if people want that to change, they will have to take it up at the guideline talk page. Other opposing comments were either not even attempting to base themselves in policy/guideline ("pure Rihannaism") or effectively countered (charts argument). Jenks24 ( talk) 13:45, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
– First of all, let me say that previous RMs " #Requested moves" and " #Requested move "2"" are not to be considered during this RM. During the first someone, somehow canvassed other users. The second one did nothing in favor of any option as it was closed for being opened "too soon". Basing me on comments given during #Requested moves 3 and new evidence I give below I will try to prove why Rihanna's song is the primary topic for any topic sharing the title. © Tbhotch ™ ( en-2.5). 05:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
First of all, during Requested moves 3 the users divided into what can be summarized as "Support, because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" and "Oppose, because of WP:NCM". While both sides can be correct, I support the supporters' argument due to the text given in WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which is:
And how a primary topic can be determined: Incoming wikilinks, Wikipedia article traffic statistics, and Usage in English reliable sources.
Another reason to move the page would be WP:THREEDABS, in which it says:
Meanwhile in WP:NCM it is stated "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using "(band)", "(album)", or "(song)"". As I said multiple times before, the main problem with this specific part of NCM is that it is badly written. I have found multiple editors using, for and against others' arguments, the line "When necessary" (which is defined by Wikipedia as " An action somebody may feel they must do"--key word "may"). It is an oxymoron if we consider a guideline page should be written clear and with low possibilities of being misunderstood. Also using the argument by an editor (later blocked and tagged as a sock) "I don't see anything [in NCM] relevant to this RM. It just explains how to do parentheticals. There is no suggestion that it is intended to override WP:PRIMARYTOPIC", which is true, it never states why songs cannot be primary topics. Probably it is not said because songs can be primary topics (one simple and more populated example Crazy in Love vs Crazy in Love (disambiguation) ( RM)).
Moving to the evidence required at "how a primary topic can be determined", here there it is:
No Chely Wright/Rihanna/Widespread Panic related-links (in other words, their Wikipedia pages about their own releases) will be included. Also in-Wikipedia space links (i.e. Talk pages, userpages, files or "Wikipedia:XYX" pages) are excluded, solely main space articles are listed.
Although Wright or Widespread songs can be underlinked, it is unlikely they can reach this quantity of links. With this is proven that Rihanna's is the primary topic regarding incoming wikilinks. Those links also prove that Rihanna's has now impacted popular culture, because it has been featured in films, tv realities, video games, it has influenced other artists, and it has its own covers. It also debunk the arguments given by other editors about Wright's popularity in #Requested moves 3: "it doesn't seem to have the long-term significance of the other articles mentioned in the guideline", or "the obscure country song, which might have more potential to be more historic.", or "Anybody looking for the Rihanna song will find it easily where it is" (untrue, as readers and writers have to link or click more than they need to). During " #Requested moves" Wright's "notability" was mentioned more, but never justified.
Multiple editors don't trust page view statistics because they only prove readers reach a page, but not from where. Due to this I created the pages " Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) (redirect)", " Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) (redirect)", and " Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) (redirect)", they were added and ordered alphabetically with no other detail. These links were added to the disambiguation page Shut Up and Drive on July 3, 2015 [1], and unfortunately they were removed on August 30. My main intention was to test page views until today (October 3/4). I assume the period will be helpful to understand what readers want when they type "Shut Up and Drive" (I haven't checked them as I write this). Due to I and Usual gave more views for adding/removing these links, July 3 and August 30 will be excluded (for example I gave 16 views to Chely due to typographical mistakes and refreshes).
Month | Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) (redirect) | Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) (redirect) | Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) (redirect) | Shut Up and Drive (total) |
---|---|---|---|---|
July 4-31 | 11 [2] | 73 [3] | 9 [4] | 142 [5] |
August 1-29 | 10 [6] | 57 [7] | 3 [8] | 142 [9] |
With this evidence, the dab page "Shut Up and Drive" was visited 284 times from July 4 to August 29. During the same period Wright's was clicked 21 times, Rihanna's was clicked 130 times, and Widespread's 12 times for a total of 160 of clicks to the "(redirect)" redirects. Presented with percentages, people who arrived to "Shut Up and Drive" (284 views/100%) 21/7.39% of the people went to Wright's song; 130/45.77% of the people went to Rihanna's song; and 12/4.22% of the people went to Widespread's song. Similarly to the "Incoming wikilinks", Rihanna's song is what readers tend to search the most. During #Requested moves 3 some users gave arguments about Rihanna's recentism. In term of years, Wright's song was released 27 years, 18 days ago (single release), 17 years, 62 days ago (album release) / 17 years, 50 days ago (single release), and Widespread's 14 years, 68 days ago (album release). As of today, none of these song is "recent", by any mean, so being "recent" is not a justification for getting more page views--using that argument Widespread's is the primary topic as it is the "most recent".
This is harder because linking all "reliable" sources will be a hell, and for non-printable sources difficult, rather I will use the Ghits method in all places recommended by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: Google web, news, scholar, and books.
GHits | Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) | Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) | Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) |
---|---|---|---|
Google web [A] | 6,030 [10] | 248,000 [11] | 1,880 [12] |
Google news | 33 [13] | 707 [14] | 27 [15] |
Google scholar | 1 [16] | 14 [17] | 0 [18] |
Google books | 86 [19] | 233 [20] | 2 [21] |
In all 4 search pages Rihanna's is the song that gets more links, a tendency given by an editor in RM3.
Given all the tangible evidence presented here, I'm proposing " Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song)" to be moved to " Shut Up and Drive", as this only demostrate that most readers want, have readen, have listened to/about Rihanna's song and less about Chely Wright or Widespread Panic. If such evidence is incorrect, it has to be contested with tangible evidence as well, and not solely by personal ideas or bureaucratically-written comments. © Tbhotch ™ ( en-2.5). 05:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
How did a No.15 hit song get moved to an artist-less title above a No.14 hit song? Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
![]() | Shut Up and Drive has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shut Up and Drive article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions: Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) → Shut Up and Drive
|
This is not an R&B song!! It´s true that it was nominated for a Grammy in this style, but the song is pop rock! For example, "Rehab" of Amy Winehouse won "Best Female Pop Vocal Perfomance" and it is a soul/jazz song...So it doesn´t mean anything!
You posted Sept. 3, 2007 as due for the release of Shut Up And Drive in UK which you credited this defjam site: http://www.defjam.co.uk/. Pertaining to that, it can be a realiable source however, some links claimed that it will be on 20th of August: http://www.newuksinglereleases.co.uk/. The latters info cant be a false one because the site has been used by many editors and credited many times. BritandBeyonce 12:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The guitar line in this song far more closely resembles Orgy's remake of " Blue Monday" than it does the original. Do the liner notes cite a sample? Chubbles 01:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if where Shut Up And Drive cover had been? Lost? BritandBeyonce 09:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I thought came to me the other day. This single never really got heard of hear in the UK until Umbrella was eventually knocked off by Timbaland's The Way I Are. Could it be justifiable to say Umbrella actually prevented any media attention to this song, thus causing to fail to achieve its maximum potential? 84.69.64.35 19:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)Ginger_Warrior
Should the "Chart Performance" section of the article be expanded; in other words to put more information into that section. Or should it be left the way it is, to prevent what happened to articles such as "Big girls don't cry (Song)" and "Beautiful liar"? 220.101.48.181 8:23, September 21, 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that in most articles the "#" is removed before chart positions; example #3 has been changed to just 3? Or #3 has been changed to "number 3/ number-three". Its just stupid. 220.101.48.181 4:23, October 8, 2007 (UTC)
Image:ShutUpAndDriveVideo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 15:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it isn't a CUrrent anymore because it is #40 now
I think it isn't a CUrrent anymore because it is #40 now
This is a subject that has been raised several times, but in fairness and accordance with Wikipedia policies, I'll open it again here.
Shut Up and Drive won a People Choice Award in 2007 for "Best R&B Song." While it does not fit in the traditional description of R&B, it is not our place as Wikipedians to make that distinction and refuse to recognize an R&B genre tag in the info box, in addition to the seemingly more accurate Pop Rock tag. Charmed36 and I had a rather heated debate (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Charmed36#Shut_Up_and_Drive_2) on this very subject not even one week ago as of the date of this post. An administrator intervened and suggested that my classification of this song as an R&B record in addition to Pop Rock was accurate.
However, as I said, I don't see any harm in opening the question up for more discussion. Please leave your comments here, not my talk page. In the meantime, I would request that the R&B tag not be removed until a consensus can be reached that might suggest it necessary.
Not R&B... Charmed36 ( talk) 17:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I stated many times. High and mighty users think they are right. Charmed36 ( talk) 02:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Listen guys the fact that Rihanna won an award for R&B shows that she is an R&B singer. Her voice has a definite contemporary R&B tone--her voice sounds very urban and if I had my way, I'd label all of her songs R&B!-- Seán Travers ( talk) 21:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)Seán Travers
Shut up and drive's peak in UWC was at #11, then why in this page is listed with a #7? Another thing: this single sold only 2 million copies, not 3,2. Look on UWC site. So it's impossible to have that amazing sales of 3.2 million copies worldwide and a further 200,000 through clubs. 1,18 million copies in the US? The single got Platinum in US? there are too many errors on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.97.4.229 ( talk) 17:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't want this to turn into an edit war,so I'm gonna start a debate about this. We've already had a discussion which ended in allowing the R&B tag,but now we're having a different discussion: Should R&B be listed as the 1st genre? I think it should,for this reason: According to this, only the 1st genre gets capitalized. However,in proper English,R&B is always supposed to have "R" and "B" as capital letters. Therefore,I think that R&B should go 1st to prevent unnecessary capitalization of other genres ( pop rock,in this case). Big T.V. Fan ( talk) 16:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I listen to it all the time. It's pop rock and dance-pop. Charmed36 ( talk) 17:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I feel like I've heard this in a commercial or something… gujamin ( talk) 18:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
You are mean't to provide a source when listing a brand name. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 14:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
is a release history table? You mention the radio and purchasable dates but there is no table for them? Calvin • Watch n' Learn 15:11, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Calvin • Watch n' Learn 16:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I was just wondering if anyone (older than 18) actually read the lyrics and understand that the entire song hasn't anything to do with cars or actual driving? In case you didn't, the song is all about sex.
The article states: "Lyrically, "Shut Up and Drive", as the title suggests, is about Rihanna looking for a driver, who will drive her around in her new car and take control over it."
This entire sentence is complete bullshit, as anyone who actually listened to the song or read the lyrics (and again, is at least old enough to understand sex references) can figure out it's all about sex... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.72.15.16 ( talk) 10:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
What is the BPM? Novalia ( talk) 21:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. I'm sure that it was unintentional, but there's been a blatant violation of WP:CANVASS that has irreversibly skewed this RM. It's a shame really because otherwise this would have almost certainly resulted in a move to the primary topic. I see below that it's been suggested there should be a wait of six months until the next RM – I won't go that far, but will impose a wait of two months until the next RM (an arbitrary time period I know, but so would any I could pick) in the hope that by then the canvassing will have been diluted. In the meantime the article can stay at the current title, which I know will frustrate a few editors, but waiting a few months won't kill anyone and it's not like the current title is inaccurate. Jenks24 ( talk) 13:35, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) →
Shut Up and Drive – I'm pretty sure the majority of people are looking for Rihanna's song when they type in "Shut Up and Drive" - no need for the disambig page, a hatnote should suffice.
Unreal7 (
talk)
13:11, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Closed as improvidently opened.( non-admin closure) Red Slash 04:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) →
Shut Up and Drive – Let's start again.
Unreal7 (
talk)
16:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment - what happens now, close the RM? Unreal7 ( talk) 13:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page not moved: no consensus Ground Zero | t 17:32, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
– The person who closed the last RM said wait two months before proposing another one - it's been three so I just figured it was time to try again. Unreal7 ( talk) 09:20, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. A clear majority of the participants here support the move and their arguments are well backed by the primary topic guideline. Those in support have clearly demonstrated that the Rihanna song meets the usage criterion and this was not countered by those opposing. The point of contention as it were was the long-term significance criterion – this is generally a tough area for closers to adjudicate because it is quite subjective, but in this case I found the opposing arguments to be fairly weak. Primary topic does not exclude pop culture topics, nor does it say that a higher bar should be set for them – if people want that to change, they will have to take it up at the guideline talk page. Other opposing comments were either not even attempting to base themselves in policy/guideline ("pure Rihannaism") or effectively countered (charts argument). Jenks24 ( talk) 13:45, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
– First of all, let me say that previous RMs " #Requested moves" and " #Requested move "2"" are not to be considered during this RM. During the first someone, somehow canvassed other users. The second one did nothing in favor of any option as it was closed for being opened "too soon". Basing me on comments given during #Requested moves 3 and new evidence I give below I will try to prove why Rihanna's song is the primary topic for any topic sharing the title. © Tbhotch ™ ( en-2.5). 05:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
First of all, during Requested moves 3 the users divided into what can be summarized as "Support, because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" and "Oppose, because of WP:NCM". While both sides can be correct, I support the supporters' argument due to the text given in WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which is:
And how a primary topic can be determined: Incoming wikilinks, Wikipedia article traffic statistics, and Usage in English reliable sources.
Another reason to move the page would be WP:THREEDABS, in which it says:
Meanwhile in WP:NCM it is stated "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using "(band)", "(album)", or "(song)"". As I said multiple times before, the main problem with this specific part of NCM is that it is badly written. I have found multiple editors using, for and against others' arguments, the line "When necessary" (which is defined by Wikipedia as " An action somebody may feel they must do"--key word "may"). It is an oxymoron if we consider a guideline page should be written clear and with low possibilities of being misunderstood. Also using the argument by an editor (later blocked and tagged as a sock) "I don't see anything [in NCM] relevant to this RM. It just explains how to do parentheticals. There is no suggestion that it is intended to override WP:PRIMARYTOPIC", which is true, it never states why songs cannot be primary topics. Probably it is not said because songs can be primary topics (one simple and more populated example Crazy in Love vs Crazy in Love (disambiguation) ( RM)).
Moving to the evidence required at "how a primary topic can be determined", here there it is:
No Chely Wright/Rihanna/Widespread Panic related-links (in other words, their Wikipedia pages about their own releases) will be included. Also in-Wikipedia space links (i.e. Talk pages, userpages, files or "Wikipedia:XYX" pages) are excluded, solely main space articles are listed.
Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) | Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) | Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
3 ( 1997 in country music, Roxie Dean, Rivers Rutherford). | 40
|
0 (Page created in July 2015) |
Although Wright or Widespread songs can be underlinked, it is unlikely they can reach this quantity of links. With this is proven that Rihanna's is the primary topic regarding incoming wikilinks. Those links also prove that Rihanna's has now impacted popular culture, because it has been featured in films, tv realities, video games, it has influenced other artists, and it has its own covers. It also debunk the arguments given by other editors about Wright's popularity in #Requested moves 3: "it doesn't seem to have the long-term significance of the other articles mentioned in the guideline", or "the obscure country song, which might have more potential to be more historic.", or "Anybody looking for the Rihanna song will find it easily where it is" (untrue, as readers and writers have to link or click more than they need to). During " #Requested moves" Wright's "notability" was mentioned more, but never justified.
Multiple editors don't trust page view statistics because they only prove readers reach a page, but not from where. Due to this I created the pages " Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) (redirect)", " Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) (redirect)", and " Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) (redirect)", they were added and ordered alphabetically with no other detail. These links were added to the disambiguation page Shut Up and Drive on July 3, 2015 [1], and unfortunately they were removed on August 30. My main intention was to test page views until today (October 3/4). I assume the period will be helpful to understand what readers want when they type "Shut Up and Drive" (I haven't checked them as I write this). Due to I and Usual gave more views for adding/removing these links, July 3 and August 30 will be excluded (for example I gave 16 views to Chely due to typographical mistakes and refreshes).
Month | Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) (redirect) | Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) (redirect) | Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) (redirect) | Shut Up and Drive (total) |
---|---|---|---|---|
July 4-31 | 11 [2] | 73 [3] | 9 [4] | 142 [5] |
August 1-29 | 10 [6] | 57 [7] | 3 [8] | 142 [9] |
With this evidence, the dab page "Shut Up and Drive" was visited 284 times from July 4 to August 29. During the same period Wright's was clicked 21 times, Rihanna's was clicked 130 times, and Widespread's 12 times for a total of 160 of clicks to the "(redirect)" redirects. Presented with percentages, people who arrived to "Shut Up and Drive" (284 views/100%) 21/7.39% of the people went to Wright's song; 130/45.77% of the people went to Rihanna's song; and 12/4.22% of the people went to Widespread's song. Similarly to the "Incoming wikilinks", Rihanna's song is what readers tend to search the most. During #Requested moves 3 some users gave arguments about Rihanna's recentism. In term of years, Wright's song was released 27 years, 18 days ago (single release), 17 years, 62 days ago (album release) / 17 years, 50 days ago (single release), and Widespread's 14 years, 68 days ago (album release). As of today, none of these song is "recent", by any mean, so being "recent" is not a justification for getting more page views--using that argument Widespread's is the primary topic as it is the "most recent".
This is harder because linking all "reliable" sources will be a hell, and for non-printable sources difficult, rather I will use the Ghits method in all places recommended by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: Google web, news, scholar, and books.
GHits | Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) | Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song) | Shut Up and Drive (Widespread Panic song) |
---|---|---|---|
Google web [A] | 6,030 [10] | 248,000 [11] | 1,880 [12] |
Google news | 33 [13] | 707 [14] | 27 [15] |
Google scholar | 1 [16] | 14 [17] | 0 [18] |
Google books | 86 [19] | 233 [20] | 2 [21] |
In all 4 search pages Rihanna's is the song that gets more links, a tendency given by an editor in RM3.
Given all the tangible evidence presented here, I'm proposing " Shut Up and Drive (Rihanna song)" to be moved to " Shut Up and Drive", as this only demostrate that most readers want, have readen, have listened to/about Rihanna's song and less about Chely Wright or Widespread Panic. If such evidence is incorrect, it has to be contested with tangible evidence as well, and not solely by personal ideas or bureaucratically-written comments. © Tbhotch ™ ( en-2.5). 05:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
How did a No.15 hit song get moved to an artist-less title above a No.14 hit song? Shut Up and Drive (Chely Wright song) In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)