Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Western Australia Peel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Peel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Western Australia PeelWikipedia:WikiProject Western Australia PeelTemplate:WikiProject Western Australia PeelWestern Australia Peel articles
Requested move 19 October 2021
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Consensus to move based primarily on
WP:COMMONNAME. Editors differed on what the MOS actually requires in this circumstance but the numerical weight of the votes, and the important basis of
WP:COMMONNAME in neutrality, which is core principle of Wikipedia, is a sound basis by itself, and provides a simple guide that editors can easily apply. (
non-admin closure)
FOARP (
talk) 08:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
FOARP (
talk)
08:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Support Move I reckon the shire website spelling would be an outlier.
mycouncil.wa.gov.au uses a hyphen. That probably comes from an official database somewhere. Same with the ABS. Therefore, the hyphen is probably the official spelling. I support this move.
Steelkamp (
talk)
10:44, 19 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Regardless of any official use, this name seems to describe a place formed by a merger of two places called Serpentine and Jarrahdale, so an
en dash seems like the right way to describe it. Lots of places outside of Wikipedia don't even recognize the difference between a hyphen and an en dash. We do. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
15:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment WP:OFFICIALNAMES doesn't mention this reason for having the article at an unofficial name. In this case, the common name is the same as the official name. This name is not obscure, isn't subject to competing authorities, isn't propaganda.
Steelkamp (
talk)
04:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support. This isn't a matter of styling but of spelling, the various options are different characters. If we were using the dash to create a descriptive title that would also be a matter of styling, but we aren't, it's the common name. So we should go by common usage. If the guidelines don't allow for this then the guidelines are wrong so
IAR and try to fix them.
Andrewa (
talk)
10:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose since the hyphen makes no sense in the context of a style that has the en dash available to signal the "and" relationship. A space (like in the official website) would be an acceptable alternative, but a hyphen is not. And spelling is about letters; this is not that, but rather punctuation or styling. There are other sources using the en dash, too, e.g.
this book. And
some style it with a "slash", another recognition of the inappropriateness of a hyphen here.
Dicklyon (
talk)
19:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)reply
While it may not be irrelevant, surely the MOS does not override the name of a jurisdiction? Serpentine-Jarrahdale is the official and common name, we shouldn't try to improve it.
YttriumShrew (
talk)
00:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)reply
But a different and official name might be the answer here. Their official web pages (and their Facebook page) seem to use neither a hyphen nor a dash, but just a space or linebreak. Why don't we propose to just use the space version instead?
Dicklyon (
talk)
20:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Support: I don't find any of the above arguments very persuasive. I agree with the opposing editors (and disagree with the supporting editors) that this is a matter of a style and not of spelling, so
WP:COMMONNAME is irrelevant. Moreover, I don't see any evidence that common usage actually does favour a hyphen: I only see evidence suggesting that this is official usage, which is not the same thing.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Western Australia Peel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Peel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Western Australia PeelWikipedia:WikiProject Western Australia PeelTemplate:WikiProject Western Australia PeelWestern Australia Peel articles
Requested move 19 October 2021
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Consensus to move based primarily on
WP:COMMONNAME. Editors differed on what the MOS actually requires in this circumstance but the numerical weight of the votes, and the important basis of
WP:COMMONNAME in neutrality, which is core principle of Wikipedia, is a sound basis by itself, and provides a simple guide that editors can easily apply. (
non-admin closure)
FOARP (
talk) 08:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
FOARP (
talk)
08:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Support Move I reckon the shire website spelling would be an outlier.
mycouncil.wa.gov.au uses a hyphen. That probably comes from an official database somewhere. Same with the ABS. Therefore, the hyphen is probably the official spelling. I support this move.
Steelkamp (
talk)
10:44, 19 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Regardless of any official use, this name seems to describe a place formed by a merger of two places called Serpentine and Jarrahdale, so an
en dash seems like the right way to describe it. Lots of places outside of Wikipedia don't even recognize the difference between a hyphen and an en dash. We do. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
15:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment WP:OFFICIALNAMES doesn't mention this reason for having the article at an unofficial name. In this case, the common name is the same as the official name. This name is not obscure, isn't subject to competing authorities, isn't propaganda.
Steelkamp (
talk)
04:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Support. This isn't a matter of styling but of spelling, the various options are different characters. If we were using the dash to create a descriptive title that would also be a matter of styling, but we aren't, it's the common name. So we should go by common usage. If the guidelines don't allow for this then the guidelines are wrong so
IAR and try to fix them.
Andrewa (
talk)
10:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose since the hyphen makes no sense in the context of a style that has the en dash available to signal the "and" relationship. A space (like in the official website) would be an acceptable alternative, but a hyphen is not. And spelling is about letters; this is not that, but rather punctuation or styling. There are other sources using the en dash, too, e.g.
this book. And
some style it with a "slash", another recognition of the inappropriateness of a hyphen here.
Dicklyon (
talk)
19:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)reply
While it may not be irrelevant, surely the MOS does not override the name of a jurisdiction? Serpentine-Jarrahdale is the official and common name, we shouldn't try to improve it.
YttriumShrew (
talk)
00:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)reply
But a different and official name might be the answer here. Their official web pages (and their Facebook page) seem to use neither a hyphen nor a dash, but just a space or linebreak. Why don't we propose to just use the space version instead?
Dicklyon (
talk)
20:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Support: I don't find any of the above arguments very persuasive. I agree with the opposing editors (and disagree with the supporting editors) that this is a matter of a style and not of spelling, so
WP:COMMONNAME is irrelevant. Moreover, I don't see any evidence that common usage actually does favour a hyphen: I only see evidence suggesting that this is official usage, which is not the same thing.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.