![]() | There is a request, submitted by Catfurball, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "Important". |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
http://adventuretravel.about.com/b/a/123700.htm A story about whether or not climbing ShipRock is legal
Just a quick non very wiki commment: I have removed the easiest route from the info box as it is clearly not a main feature of Shiprock and is illegal. The Navajo Nation issued the statement partly due to an earlier wiki discussion about climbing there (check the timeline!). Please all be mindful and respectful of earlier discussions. Thanks.
The additions recently made were all POV versions of statements that already appeared in the article. The deletions were totally unjustifiable since they are uncontroversial factual material. If someone wants to expand on and clarify the particular religious significance (in a non-POV fashion) and/or the legal status of climbing on Shiprock, that would be appropriate, although discussing it on this talk page would be good beforehand. -- Spireguy 22:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Apolgoies for not following wikiprotocol in my previous edits. It is correct that the numerous references to climbing should not simply be cut. The statements do not appears in the existing text with the same significance and this should be changed. The current text portrayal of Shiprock is heavily biased from a climbers perspective. This is problematic because it is in total disregard to the Religious beliefs associated with Shiprock and should be noted as one of those controversial points. Shiprock is much more important as a sacred place than as a climbers dream.
While the easiest route and first ascent might be well sourced, these are quite minor details compared to the religious and cultural importance of Shiprock for natives throughout the southwest. In any case, First ascent should be noted as First recorded ascent by a white man.
All statements which are not well sourced or fact will be edited, and I am waiting for a proper expert on Shiprock to provide more details on what should be included here.
Diastar 02:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I edited the page again, quite a bit, to carefully note and source the climbing story and to try to put in a little of the religious part (for which I do not have good references, unfortunately). I can expand a bit on the climbing stuff (we can put this stuff in the article if necessary, but it's quite long and probably overly detailed):
However, questions of legality, ownership, safety, and religious significance have made the issue of access to Shiprock a complicated story. Some sources report that climbing the peak was declared illegal in 1970. However Cameron Burns reported in 1995 that:
Nathaniel Boyd, a right-of-way agent with the Navajo Tribal Parks and Recreation Department, told me that while climbing is prohibited in certain places, such as Canyon de Chelly and Monument Valley, it is not prohibited elsewhere.... A permittee (local permit holder) has domain over the permittee's land and is the person to ask for permission when seeking a climbing objective.
...Bob Rosebrough, a lawyer, dug into Navajo annals to find that the basis for a "ban" on climbing on the reservation was a letter written by Charles Damon, director of Navajo Parks and Recreation in the early 1970s. Damon suggested a ban after the death of two climbers on Shiprock in 1970.... Rosebrough conducted several interviews with lawyers in the Navajo Department of Justice only to learn that the letter was never backed up with legislation and that no ban exists, or ever has existed.
Indeed, in an interview with Damon himself...Damon suggested to Rosebrough that if we wanted to pursue climbing on the reservation, he seek permission at a local level, rather than the central tribal government. [1]
A report in 2000, from a person denied a climbing permit, noted that "A climbing accident on Shiprock...four years ago resulted in a big rescue. The grazing permit administrator informed me that Shiprock Chapter House had passed a resolution as a result of the accident encouraging the Window Rock Chapter House not to give out permits." [2]
The above quotations are hardly serious legal evidence - the articles by Burns reflect his utter ignorance of the laws or how to conduct careful research. He makes no distinction between climbing on Navajo land in general or approaching sacred places and seems unaware that Shiprock might have have a different status from the other climbs he was permitted. For further POV reading, http://gorp.away.com/gorp/books/excerpts/ship.htm gives a very nice subjective account of a tourist. That it was published hardly makes this verifiable. -- diastar
The issue of perceived bias toward a climbers perspective is straightforward to address, namely by including more (verifiable) material on the religious and cultural side. I have tried in a very small way to do that, but my (easily available) sources are not good in that area. I may have time to get better ones.
In general, in an article that is already long and in some ways complete, a preponderance of material on one facet of the subject can conceivably constitute lack of neutrality. However in a short article such as this, it is inappropriate to delete notable, verifiable, factual material simply because material relevant to other facets is not yet present.
It would be great to have an article that addressed Shiprock's importance as a sacred place. The right way to do that is to add material, not delete it.
The first ascent, difficulty etc. are not "quite minor", certainly not minor enough to delete them. Regardless of one's opinion of the ethical status of climbing the peak (and I for one would not encourage it), the peak is notable partly for those reasons.
I changed it back to "first ascent", unmodified, since the peak is not climbable by non-technical means, so there is no real possibility of an unrecorded ascent.
Comments welcome -- Spireguy 04:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment: I have made a couple of revisions. Referring to printed climbing material does not make the source good. Technical means? There are hand holds carved into Shiprock. Not the white man's technology, but is actually use of technical means. In terms of being notable for its climbing, it is to climbers. That Shiprock is iconic of the southwest would be obvious if photographers or painters (or non-climbing tourists) were being quoted. The difference is that photographing and painting images of Shiprock do not violate tribal custom. POV seems like a flexible concept.
-- diastar
I disagree strongly with Stan, and agree with Hike395. By Stan's logic, we would have to label every first ascent as a "first recorded ascent." (E.g. what about "a Sherpa Messner"?) I would not say that the (very mild) assumption about modern technology is culturally loaded in this case. -- Spireguy 20:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
On some of the various issues expressed here:
Hope that's helpful! Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
diastar —Preceding comment was added at 02:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
After a bit of further research into the Navajo Position on rock climbing - there are mentions that rock climbing is not allowed in Monument Valley or any part of the Nation on numerous official websites. It seems that the Nation is actively working to promote this. So I removed the anecdote from Beyer - it seems a moot point now. Hopefully, this does not ruffle any feathers. I did leave in the bit about climbers seeing Shiprock as an interesting place to climb, the first recorded ascent, and the further seven routes, but I think this should also be changed. But shouldn't all of this be referenced?
Diastar ( talk) 13:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
First, thanks to Diastar for finding an unequivocal source about the legality. That's very helpful, and it does make a little bit of what was in the article before unnecessary.
However, I disagree with the removal of a lot of the other climbing information, and I have reinstated it, in a modified form, to clearly take into account the unambiguous legal status. The information about the first ascent and the climbing difficulty are clearly relevant (and are referenced), and are completely standard facts for the infobox. (That's why there are fields for them there.)
As to the issue, previously discussed, of "first ascent" versus "first recorded ascent", I did not see a consensus on this page to use "first recorded ascent." Diastar, you mention "Wikipedia policy on First Nations lands"---please provide a link to the relevant policy or guideline page. I would be surprised to see a guideline that asserts that the phrase "first recorded ascent" must be used in all cases on any First Nations lands. Most technical peaks in the world were first climbed by non-local climbers, so I don't see how it's crucial to this issue that Shiprock is in the Navajo Nation. However, I would like to see the guideline to which you refer. For another discussion, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mountains/General#First_ascent. -- Spireguy ( talk) 16:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
hi spireguy. I think the climbing references should be removed from the info box - they are not core to the entry and not as specific as height, location etc. It contributes to the notion that Shiprock should be climbed when there is an apparent information campaign by the Navajo Nation to discourage climbing (I found a red outlined mention on numerous Navajo websites that Climbing is not allowed). I think the discussion on First ascent is mainly about the infobox? And, this historical climbing information is included in the article.
For the first ascent vs first recorded ascent in the actual article, I think Stan's suggestion to use first recorded is supported by the guideline that Hike mentioned in the mountain category for First Nations land (mabe the same discussion?). I am disputing the suggestion that modern technical means are the only ones with which it is possible to scale Shiprock. My point here, is that oral tradition allows for ceremonies taking place on top of Shiprock - there are not sources suitable for wikipedia, but certainly point to the peak having been climbed before the Sierra Club trip. I guess my Grandpa is correct that there are handholds going up the cliffs. Sites like Acoma Pueblo and Chaco Canyon are evidence that the technology existed and was used to scale cliff faces several 1000 years ago. In this case, I think Stan's point about not speculating is the best way forward. It seems like a productive compromise. Diastar ( talk) 20:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Yes, I was referring to the input from Stan and Hike395. I had a brief look at the mountain discussion, but it looks like this topic was raised, but I did not see a clear consensus or that the issue had been gone into. Maybe Shiprock provides an interesting case because it combines quite a few points all in one. Ok, I am taking issue with the information presented in the infobox. As far as I can tell, that is not totally standardized for all Mountains. Generally, I do not understand why the ascent would be more important that, say, the mineral composition. It is also unclear to me why the ascent information is presented in the same category as the altitude or geographic location (another point). So, it does not make sense to me that those bits of information are presented as the same class of data. Of course, I understand that it is interesting for climbers, but not for a more general public. For the first documented/recorded ascent vs first ascent, I am disputing the assumption that the technology did not exist prior to 1939 as the well documented climbing technologies of the Anasazi are evidence that the technology existed for substantial climbing. This should be grounds enough to contest the that technologically aided climbing existed in the area and that it is likely Shiprock was climbed prior to 1939. Noting the first recorded ascent is the ideal compromise and is technically correct. I do not see a problem with this change because it does not change the stated fact and allows for earlier activities to have taken place. Diastar ( talk) 00:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Hi. With regards to the infobox, the references to climbing should be removed. It is clearly illegal to climb Shiprock and these references should not be included in such a breakdown. Wikipedia should also be a bit responsible and not spread mis-information. The following is in a 2006 press release issued by the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department in reference to Monument Valley.
This recent geologic event emphasizes the fragility of the Monuments and even more emphasizes the need for conservation and ecologically-minded tourism. Reports of the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department allowing rock climbing are false. Yet several websites have postings on how to evade Navajo Nation regulations and proceed with dangerous and illegal rock climbs in the park. Even more serious than the possible physical harm illegal climbs could pose is the religious damage done to the Navajo people by these non-Navajo visitors. The Monuments are sacred to the Navajo people and any human interaction (by Navajo or non-Navajo) is strictly off limits. Please abide by the humble religious requests of the Navajo people and do not climb the Monuments. “Navajo law will be strictly enforced on this issue,” Parks Department Manager Ray Russell also added.
For the article, I would suggest adding the expanded information on the Sierra Club party and removing
A modification of the original route is still regarded as the easiest, and it is rated as Grade IV, YDS 5.9, A1.[1]
This information is now moot, given the legal status of climbing.
For the ascent, I would suggest simply changing first ascent to first recorded ascent. That point seems to hinge on a question of technology and I am referring to the achievements of the Anasazi as well documented sources that highly developed technologies for climbing, building etc in use in the area long before 1939. The should be adequate to allow that Shiprock was possibly ascented but not recorded. Ugh, therefore, first recorded ascent is correct and appropriate.
Ugh. Apologies if this is too wordy - too much coffee! Diastar ( talk) 08:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
In general, I edited the section, leaving in the disputed points and adding the perspective of the Navajo Parks and Recreation. On the advice of another wiki editor, it could be that even more information on this might be of interest? The Burns article could be referred to and partly explain why the rock climbing community spread incorrect information the status. Up until a few days ago, wikipedia was one source of misinformation. Comments or suggestions?
For the infobox, it still seems to me that no harm would be done by expanding the related info in the article and removing it from the infobox. Checking a few mountain articles, there does not seem to be a uniform approach to the infobox. It also appears that FA are not always mentioned in the body of the article, or that the infobox contains information not covered in the article. In any case,the Mountains project guidelines clearly state that the "These are only suggestions, things to give you focus and to get you going, and you shouldn't feel obligated in the least to follow them." It does not seem appropriate to include the easiest routes/first ascent in the infobox when it is clear that climbing is illegal and an offense. That gives the impression that this is core information.
The FA vs RFA discussion seems really difficult. Maybe it would be good to get input from anthropologists/archeologist with knowledge of the region? If I understand it, we are disputing the technology needed for such a difficult climb? And according to experts on rock climbing, Shiprock was impossible to scale without modern means? So we need an expert on ancient technologies. Or?
For now, I will put a bit of energy into cleaning up the article in other areas. Beautiful Mountain will need a disam.
Diastar ( talk) 19:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Ah, for the infobox - my point is that wikiguidelines are guidelines, suggestions for organizing information. These are not rules, so in general, the infobox can differ. And it does differ on mountain articles with various infoboxes and sets of information currently in use on wikipedia. I am suggesting that these details are not core to the article (even if they are to every other mountain article on the planet!) and it is inappropriate to list them in the infobox in the specific case of Shiprock.
"This project is WikiProject:Mountains, not WikiProject:Hiking or WikiProject:Mountaineering." from http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Mountains%2FArchive_7&diff=228057116&oldid=228038048
For the article, in the proper context, that information does not seem so inappropriate. For the FA vs FRA, I would seek an opinion outside of the mountaineering community as we need an expert position on ancient tech included for consideration. For this, it seems reasonable to hold off until there is a reliable source and no ruffled feathers.
With regards to the quotation above: I have cited it as a source for the information, but not a longer quote. It is what you get following more info: http://www.navajonationparks.org/images/Monument%20Valley%20PR.pdf Do you advise linking this press release? Or adding the entire quotation? I am fine with both.
Otherwise, I will add the disam for beautiful mountain and hope you take care of the Mountain details!
Diastar ( talk) 21:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Diastar ( talk) 23:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
Diastar ( talk) 00:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
A note asking for additional input has been posted on the
WikiProject Mountains page, and I'm here because of that. Having read the whole of this talk page, it seems that there are several issues at dispute here. First, should the article record any climbing information about Shiprock, specifically the details of the 1939 ascent and the grade of the easiest route up. I don't have a copy of World Mountaineering to check the reference, but I haven't seen any suggestion that this is not a
reliable source or that these facts are not
verifiable. The argument against is climbing is illegal and that it offends the
Navajo's religious sensibilities, both of which points now seem to be undisputed and are properly referenced. There are plenty of precedents for Wikipedia including details of illegal and/or offensive activities; it wouldn't be much of an encyclopaedia if it didn't. It seems pretty clear to me that the correct
neutral point of view is to include these climbing details and also to state that climbing on the rock is currently illegal and describe why.
Should the climbing details go in the infobox? One purpose of the infobox is to make certain notable facts about the rock readily visible. If we look at other technically-difficult mountains, first ascents and other such details are often included in the infobox. I don't see that the fact that climbing Shiprock is illegal or culturally insensitive is relevant to whether this is included in the infobox. (For one thing, I've not seen a source saying it was illegal in 1939, but even if it was illegal at the time, the fact that it was climbed is still notable.) I would however suggest that, in addition to stating the grade, we append "(illegal)" or some other one or two word note. I don't feel that the current footnote gives the fact sufficient prominence: it would be easy to assume the footnote is simply a reference, and not bother reading it.
Last, there's the question of whether the ascent should be marked "first ascent" or "first recorded ascent" in the infobox. First, there's the technical point that the mountain infobox only supports the former. But that isn't good grounds for making a decision. So far as I'm aware, no-one has offered a reliable source that even suggests that there may have an earlier ascent, either an earlier 20th century one, or one by the Navajo. Diastar says that his grandfather said there were "handholds going up the cliffs"; with respect to him, this isn't a verifiable source, unless he published something saying this. I always dislike having to say this, but the fundamental tenant of Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It may be true, but if it isn't verifiable, we shouldn't say it. (And by verifiable, we mean something that can be verified by scholarly research, not be scaling the rock in search of handholds.)
I am frequently surprised by some examples of things that have been climbed by native peoples without modern aids, and I think I'm happier to entertain the possibility of a native Navajo ascent than User:Spireguy seems to be. (Though this may well be because he has better sources than me and/or more accurate picture of what is involved in this climb: I've never even visited New Mexico.) Shiprock is a 5.9 (or HVS for those on this side of the pond). I would be interested in comparing this with some things were native ascents are incontrovertibly known to have happened, such as, for example, Stac Lee. But that aside, there is no verifiable evidence to suggest an ascent did happen, or even that it might have done. And in such a situation, I feel we should simply describe it as the "first ascent", not the "first recorded ascent". A useful analogy is Mount Everest. Whilst I can't imagine anyone suggesting a native Sherpa ascent, it is certainly conceivable that Mallory and Irvine reached the summit in 1924. The general consensus is that they probably didn't, nevertheless it is certainly a possibility. But Hillary's and Tenzing's 1953 ascent is still listed simply as the "first ascent".
— ras52 ( talk) 14:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that the consensus on the infobox is to keep the climbing info. I think ras52's suggestion of putting "illegal" right in the infobox is fine. I'm going to do some edits on that basis. I note that Diastar has already made more severe edits to the infobox, which I don't think were justified by this discussion. -- Spireguy ( talk) 02:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
References
Shiprock is easily noticed in the film Transformers (film) and I believe it should be added under the 'In Fiction' section of the article. 204.134.34.190 ( talk) 22:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the recently added mention of Transformers (film), since I think that it was trivia, which is not encouraged in Wikipedia. If we added every incidental appearance of every landmark/building/etc. in every film, Wikipedia would be inundated with facts that have no real bearing on the articles in question. -- Spireguy ( talk) 01:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe a compromise is needed? A more general mention that Shiprock appears in numerous films with a mention of some titles? Or change the section to Popular culture and add the books and film and open a space for references to photography and painting? Diastar ( talk) 13:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
I still think that the recently re-added Transformers (film) mention is unnecessary trivia. Comments from others? -- Spireguy ( talk) 03:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to introduce a new subject heading called american pop culture that can list references to Shiprock appearing in film, fiction and the like. Actually, I would also suggest a more general entry for film as rock with wings might be more approriate to the town of shiprock entry anyway. Diastar ( talk) 20:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
As this seems fairly innocuous, I went ahead and merged the two sections into In The Media. I will add a few items later. It would be great to have a source for the Helgrind mention. Additions?
Diastar ( talk) 18:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Hello Everyone, I am going to delete the Tony Hillerman link from the 'See Also' list. There is no mention of Hillerman in the article; and no mention of Shiprock in the page on Hillerman. I don't think the reference link belongs here. Cheers.
SaturnCat (
talk)
07:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Shiprock, climbing Shiprock, and varying opinions on the subject of climbing it, feature prominently in the Tony Hillerman novel Fallen Man. It seems that it should at least be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.235.92.51 ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 11 January 2016
Article clean up.... Beautiful Mountain links to a redirect to Beinn Bhreagh, Nova Scotia. I guess Beautiful mountain should be corrected with a disam to the second one. working on that
Okie, the photo is sorted. Can we clean up the article? The actual name is not consistent. I think Ship Rock is a mis-spelling that appeared on maps, so we should note that and use Shiprock.
Some of the terminology is not clear and the mythology is quite vague. For a first time reader, maybe these things should be cleared up.
comments?
Diastar ( talk) 23:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
In keeping with the above suggestions, I have gone ahead and made several changes to the article. Ideally, the introduction is more of an introduction to the article and mentions the key topics covered. Pre-puebloan elements should be expanded. The name related items were shifted to the name section. I think it would make sense to kill Ship Rock - or mention that this is a common mis-spelling? The infamous infobox changes were per the above suggestions: reduction of first ascent to reduce clutter and clarification on easiest routes based on
Fajada Butte article. No public access would imply that people cannot go there, also not true, so this is a compromise. Suggestions are welcome.
The geology and legends still need work. That is next. There are a few more books and film references - maybe more? Details? Finally, I added an external link list. Comments and suggestions for future changes?
Diastar ( talk) 23:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)diastar Diastar ( talk) 10:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
What does this even mean?
"It lies about 12 by 20 miles (19 by 32 km) southwest of the town of Shiprock"
Never heard the phrase x by y miles, and I feel like I'm not alone. Should probably be clarified.
Amyrlin ( talk) 13:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
man this write-up is lollerballz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.178.253.186 ( talk) 19:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
I believe it may be accurate but it needs a reference. I know that may not be easy but mmm maybe the Navajo Nation website? Elinruby ( talk) 05:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
![]() | There is a request, submitted by Catfurball, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "Important". |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
http://adventuretravel.about.com/b/a/123700.htm A story about whether or not climbing ShipRock is legal
Just a quick non very wiki commment: I have removed the easiest route from the info box as it is clearly not a main feature of Shiprock and is illegal. The Navajo Nation issued the statement partly due to an earlier wiki discussion about climbing there (check the timeline!). Please all be mindful and respectful of earlier discussions. Thanks.
The additions recently made were all POV versions of statements that already appeared in the article. The deletions were totally unjustifiable since they are uncontroversial factual material. If someone wants to expand on and clarify the particular religious significance (in a non-POV fashion) and/or the legal status of climbing on Shiprock, that would be appropriate, although discussing it on this talk page would be good beforehand. -- Spireguy 22:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Apolgoies for not following wikiprotocol in my previous edits. It is correct that the numerous references to climbing should not simply be cut. The statements do not appears in the existing text with the same significance and this should be changed. The current text portrayal of Shiprock is heavily biased from a climbers perspective. This is problematic because it is in total disregard to the Religious beliefs associated with Shiprock and should be noted as one of those controversial points. Shiprock is much more important as a sacred place than as a climbers dream.
While the easiest route and first ascent might be well sourced, these are quite minor details compared to the religious and cultural importance of Shiprock for natives throughout the southwest. In any case, First ascent should be noted as First recorded ascent by a white man.
All statements which are not well sourced or fact will be edited, and I am waiting for a proper expert on Shiprock to provide more details on what should be included here.
Diastar 02:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I edited the page again, quite a bit, to carefully note and source the climbing story and to try to put in a little of the religious part (for which I do not have good references, unfortunately). I can expand a bit on the climbing stuff (we can put this stuff in the article if necessary, but it's quite long and probably overly detailed):
However, questions of legality, ownership, safety, and religious significance have made the issue of access to Shiprock a complicated story. Some sources report that climbing the peak was declared illegal in 1970. However Cameron Burns reported in 1995 that:
Nathaniel Boyd, a right-of-way agent with the Navajo Tribal Parks and Recreation Department, told me that while climbing is prohibited in certain places, such as Canyon de Chelly and Monument Valley, it is not prohibited elsewhere.... A permittee (local permit holder) has domain over the permittee's land and is the person to ask for permission when seeking a climbing objective.
...Bob Rosebrough, a lawyer, dug into Navajo annals to find that the basis for a "ban" on climbing on the reservation was a letter written by Charles Damon, director of Navajo Parks and Recreation in the early 1970s. Damon suggested a ban after the death of two climbers on Shiprock in 1970.... Rosebrough conducted several interviews with lawyers in the Navajo Department of Justice only to learn that the letter was never backed up with legislation and that no ban exists, or ever has existed.
Indeed, in an interview with Damon himself...Damon suggested to Rosebrough that if we wanted to pursue climbing on the reservation, he seek permission at a local level, rather than the central tribal government. [1]
A report in 2000, from a person denied a climbing permit, noted that "A climbing accident on Shiprock...four years ago resulted in a big rescue. The grazing permit administrator informed me that Shiprock Chapter House had passed a resolution as a result of the accident encouraging the Window Rock Chapter House not to give out permits." [2]
The above quotations are hardly serious legal evidence - the articles by Burns reflect his utter ignorance of the laws or how to conduct careful research. He makes no distinction between climbing on Navajo land in general or approaching sacred places and seems unaware that Shiprock might have have a different status from the other climbs he was permitted. For further POV reading, http://gorp.away.com/gorp/books/excerpts/ship.htm gives a very nice subjective account of a tourist. That it was published hardly makes this verifiable. -- diastar
The issue of perceived bias toward a climbers perspective is straightforward to address, namely by including more (verifiable) material on the religious and cultural side. I have tried in a very small way to do that, but my (easily available) sources are not good in that area. I may have time to get better ones.
In general, in an article that is already long and in some ways complete, a preponderance of material on one facet of the subject can conceivably constitute lack of neutrality. However in a short article such as this, it is inappropriate to delete notable, verifiable, factual material simply because material relevant to other facets is not yet present.
It would be great to have an article that addressed Shiprock's importance as a sacred place. The right way to do that is to add material, not delete it.
The first ascent, difficulty etc. are not "quite minor", certainly not minor enough to delete them. Regardless of one's opinion of the ethical status of climbing the peak (and I for one would not encourage it), the peak is notable partly for those reasons.
I changed it back to "first ascent", unmodified, since the peak is not climbable by non-technical means, so there is no real possibility of an unrecorded ascent.
Comments welcome -- Spireguy 04:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment: I have made a couple of revisions. Referring to printed climbing material does not make the source good. Technical means? There are hand holds carved into Shiprock. Not the white man's technology, but is actually use of technical means. In terms of being notable for its climbing, it is to climbers. That Shiprock is iconic of the southwest would be obvious if photographers or painters (or non-climbing tourists) were being quoted. The difference is that photographing and painting images of Shiprock do not violate tribal custom. POV seems like a flexible concept.
-- diastar
I disagree strongly with Stan, and agree with Hike395. By Stan's logic, we would have to label every first ascent as a "first recorded ascent." (E.g. what about "a Sherpa Messner"?) I would not say that the (very mild) assumption about modern technology is culturally loaded in this case. -- Spireguy 20:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
On some of the various issues expressed here:
Hope that's helpful! Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
diastar —Preceding comment was added at 02:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
After a bit of further research into the Navajo Position on rock climbing - there are mentions that rock climbing is not allowed in Monument Valley or any part of the Nation on numerous official websites. It seems that the Nation is actively working to promote this. So I removed the anecdote from Beyer - it seems a moot point now. Hopefully, this does not ruffle any feathers. I did leave in the bit about climbers seeing Shiprock as an interesting place to climb, the first recorded ascent, and the further seven routes, but I think this should also be changed. But shouldn't all of this be referenced?
Diastar ( talk) 13:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
First, thanks to Diastar for finding an unequivocal source about the legality. That's very helpful, and it does make a little bit of what was in the article before unnecessary.
However, I disagree with the removal of a lot of the other climbing information, and I have reinstated it, in a modified form, to clearly take into account the unambiguous legal status. The information about the first ascent and the climbing difficulty are clearly relevant (and are referenced), and are completely standard facts for the infobox. (That's why there are fields for them there.)
As to the issue, previously discussed, of "first ascent" versus "first recorded ascent", I did not see a consensus on this page to use "first recorded ascent." Diastar, you mention "Wikipedia policy on First Nations lands"---please provide a link to the relevant policy or guideline page. I would be surprised to see a guideline that asserts that the phrase "first recorded ascent" must be used in all cases on any First Nations lands. Most technical peaks in the world were first climbed by non-local climbers, so I don't see how it's crucial to this issue that Shiprock is in the Navajo Nation. However, I would like to see the guideline to which you refer. For another discussion, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mountains/General#First_ascent. -- Spireguy ( talk) 16:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
hi spireguy. I think the climbing references should be removed from the info box - they are not core to the entry and not as specific as height, location etc. It contributes to the notion that Shiprock should be climbed when there is an apparent information campaign by the Navajo Nation to discourage climbing (I found a red outlined mention on numerous Navajo websites that Climbing is not allowed). I think the discussion on First ascent is mainly about the infobox? And, this historical climbing information is included in the article.
For the first ascent vs first recorded ascent in the actual article, I think Stan's suggestion to use first recorded is supported by the guideline that Hike mentioned in the mountain category for First Nations land (mabe the same discussion?). I am disputing the suggestion that modern technical means are the only ones with which it is possible to scale Shiprock. My point here, is that oral tradition allows for ceremonies taking place on top of Shiprock - there are not sources suitable for wikipedia, but certainly point to the peak having been climbed before the Sierra Club trip. I guess my Grandpa is correct that there are handholds going up the cliffs. Sites like Acoma Pueblo and Chaco Canyon are evidence that the technology existed and was used to scale cliff faces several 1000 years ago. In this case, I think Stan's point about not speculating is the best way forward. It seems like a productive compromise. Diastar ( talk) 20:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Yes, I was referring to the input from Stan and Hike395. I had a brief look at the mountain discussion, but it looks like this topic was raised, but I did not see a clear consensus or that the issue had been gone into. Maybe Shiprock provides an interesting case because it combines quite a few points all in one. Ok, I am taking issue with the information presented in the infobox. As far as I can tell, that is not totally standardized for all Mountains. Generally, I do not understand why the ascent would be more important that, say, the mineral composition. It is also unclear to me why the ascent information is presented in the same category as the altitude or geographic location (another point). So, it does not make sense to me that those bits of information are presented as the same class of data. Of course, I understand that it is interesting for climbers, but not for a more general public. For the first documented/recorded ascent vs first ascent, I am disputing the assumption that the technology did not exist prior to 1939 as the well documented climbing technologies of the Anasazi are evidence that the technology existed for substantial climbing. This should be grounds enough to contest the that technologically aided climbing existed in the area and that it is likely Shiprock was climbed prior to 1939. Noting the first recorded ascent is the ideal compromise and is technically correct. I do not see a problem with this change because it does not change the stated fact and allows for earlier activities to have taken place. Diastar ( talk) 00:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Hi. With regards to the infobox, the references to climbing should be removed. It is clearly illegal to climb Shiprock and these references should not be included in such a breakdown. Wikipedia should also be a bit responsible and not spread mis-information. The following is in a 2006 press release issued by the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department in reference to Monument Valley.
This recent geologic event emphasizes the fragility of the Monuments and even more emphasizes the need for conservation and ecologically-minded tourism. Reports of the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department allowing rock climbing are false. Yet several websites have postings on how to evade Navajo Nation regulations and proceed with dangerous and illegal rock climbs in the park. Even more serious than the possible physical harm illegal climbs could pose is the religious damage done to the Navajo people by these non-Navajo visitors. The Monuments are sacred to the Navajo people and any human interaction (by Navajo or non-Navajo) is strictly off limits. Please abide by the humble religious requests of the Navajo people and do not climb the Monuments. “Navajo law will be strictly enforced on this issue,” Parks Department Manager Ray Russell also added.
For the article, I would suggest adding the expanded information on the Sierra Club party and removing
A modification of the original route is still regarded as the easiest, and it is rated as Grade IV, YDS 5.9, A1.[1]
This information is now moot, given the legal status of climbing.
For the ascent, I would suggest simply changing first ascent to first recorded ascent. That point seems to hinge on a question of technology and I am referring to the achievements of the Anasazi as well documented sources that highly developed technologies for climbing, building etc in use in the area long before 1939. The should be adequate to allow that Shiprock was possibly ascented but not recorded. Ugh, therefore, first recorded ascent is correct and appropriate.
Ugh. Apologies if this is too wordy - too much coffee! Diastar ( talk) 08:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
In general, I edited the section, leaving in the disputed points and adding the perspective of the Navajo Parks and Recreation. On the advice of another wiki editor, it could be that even more information on this might be of interest? The Burns article could be referred to and partly explain why the rock climbing community spread incorrect information the status. Up until a few days ago, wikipedia was one source of misinformation. Comments or suggestions?
For the infobox, it still seems to me that no harm would be done by expanding the related info in the article and removing it from the infobox. Checking a few mountain articles, there does not seem to be a uniform approach to the infobox. It also appears that FA are not always mentioned in the body of the article, or that the infobox contains information not covered in the article. In any case,the Mountains project guidelines clearly state that the "These are only suggestions, things to give you focus and to get you going, and you shouldn't feel obligated in the least to follow them." It does not seem appropriate to include the easiest routes/first ascent in the infobox when it is clear that climbing is illegal and an offense. That gives the impression that this is core information.
The FA vs RFA discussion seems really difficult. Maybe it would be good to get input from anthropologists/archeologist with knowledge of the region? If I understand it, we are disputing the technology needed for such a difficult climb? And according to experts on rock climbing, Shiprock was impossible to scale without modern means? So we need an expert on ancient technologies. Or?
For now, I will put a bit of energy into cleaning up the article in other areas. Beautiful Mountain will need a disam.
Diastar ( talk) 19:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Ah, for the infobox - my point is that wikiguidelines are guidelines, suggestions for organizing information. These are not rules, so in general, the infobox can differ. And it does differ on mountain articles with various infoboxes and sets of information currently in use on wikipedia. I am suggesting that these details are not core to the article (even if they are to every other mountain article on the planet!) and it is inappropriate to list them in the infobox in the specific case of Shiprock.
"This project is WikiProject:Mountains, not WikiProject:Hiking or WikiProject:Mountaineering." from http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Mountains%2FArchive_7&diff=228057116&oldid=228038048
For the article, in the proper context, that information does not seem so inappropriate. For the FA vs FRA, I would seek an opinion outside of the mountaineering community as we need an expert position on ancient tech included for consideration. For this, it seems reasonable to hold off until there is a reliable source and no ruffled feathers.
With regards to the quotation above: I have cited it as a source for the information, but not a longer quote. It is what you get following more info: http://www.navajonationparks.org/images/Monument%20Valley%20PR.pdf Do you advise linking this press release? Or adding the entire quotation? I am fine with both.
Otherwise, I will add the disam for beautiful mountain and hope you take care of the Mountain details!
Diastar ( talk) 21:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Diastar ( talk) 23:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
Diastar ( talk) 00:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
A note asking for additional input has been posted on the
WikiProject Mountains page, and I'm here because of that. Having read the whole of this talk page, it seems that there are several issues at dispute here. First, should the article record any climbing information about Shiprock, specifically the details of the 1939 ascent and the grade of the easiest route up. I don't have a copy of World Mountaineering to check the reference, but I haven't seen any suggestion that this is not a
reliable source or that these facts are not
verifiable. The argument against is climbing is illegal and that it offends the
Navajo's religious sensibilities, both of which points now seem to be undisputed and are properly referenced. There are plenty of precedents for Wikipedia including details of illegal and/or offensive activities; it wouldn't be much of an encyclopaedia if it didn't. It seems pretty clear to me that the correct
neutral point of view is to include these climbing details and also to state that climbing on the rock is currently illegal and describe why.
Should the climbing details go in the infobox? One purpose of the infobox is to make certain notable facts about the rock readily visible. If we look at other technically-difficult mountains, first ascents and other such details are often included in the infobox. I don't see that the fact that climbing Shiprock is illegal or culturally insensitive is relevant to whether this is included in the infobox. (For one thing, I've not seen a source saying it was illegal in 1939, but even if it was illegal at the time, the fact that it was climbed is still notable.) I would however suggest that, in addition to stating the grade, we append "(illegal)" or some other one or two word note. I don't feel that the current footnote gives the fact sufficient prominence: it would be easy to assume the footnote is simply a reference, and not bother reading it.
Last, there's the question of whether the ascent should be marked "first ascent" or "first recorded ascent" in the infobox. First, there's the technical point that the mountain infobox only supports the former. But that isn't good grounds for making a decision. So far as I'm aware, no-one has offered a reliable source that even suggests that there may have an earlier ascent, either an earlier 20th century one, or one by the Navajo. Diastar says that his grandfather said there were "handholds going up the cliffs"; with respect to him, this isn't a verifiable source, unless he published something saying this. I always dislike having to say this, but the fundamental tenant of Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It may be true, but if it isn't verifiable, we shouldn't say it. (And by verifiable, we mean something that can be verified by scholarly research, not be scaling the rock in search of handholds.)
I am frequently surprised by some examples of things that have been climbed by native peoples without modern aids, and I think I'm happier to entertain the possibility of a native Navajo ascent than User:Spireguy seems to be. (Though this may well be because he has better sources than me and/or more accurate picture of what is involved in this climb: I've never even visited New Mexico.) Shiprock is a 5.9 (or HVS for those on this side of the pond). I would be interested in comparing this with some things were native ascents are incontrovertibly known to have happened, such as, for example, Stac Lee. But that aside, there is no verifiable evidence to suggest an ascent did happen, or even that it might have done. And in such a situation, I feel we should simply describe it as the "first ascent", not the "first recorded ascent". A useful analogy is Mount Everest. Whilst I can't imagine anyone suggesting a native Sherpa ascent, it is certainly conceivable that Mallory and Irvine reached the summit in 1924. The general consensus is that they probably didn't, nevertheless it is certainly a possibility. But Hillary's and Tenzing's 1953 ascent is still listed simply as the "first ascent".
— ras52 ( talk) 14:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that the consensus on the infobox is to keep the climbing info. I think ras52's suggestion of putting "illegal" right in the infobox is fine. I'm going to do some edits on that basis. I note that Diastar has already made more severe edits to the infobox, which I don't think were justified by this discussion. -- Spireguy ( talk) 02:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
References
Shiprock is easily noticed in the film Transformers (film) and I believe it should be added under the 'In Fiction' section of the article. 204.134.34.190 ( talk) 22:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the recently added mention of Transformers (film), since I think that it was trivia, which is not encouraged in Wikipedia. If we added every incidental appearance of every landmark/building/etc. in every film, Wikipedia would be inundated with facts that have no real bearing on the articles in question. -- Spireguy ( talk) 01:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe a compromise is needed? A more general mention that Shiprock appears in numerous films with a mention of some titles? Or change the section to Popular culture and add the books and film and open a space for references to photography and painting? Diastar ( talk) 13:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
I still think that the recently re-added Transformers (film) mention is unnecessary trivia. Comments from others? -- Spireguy ( talk) 03:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to introduce a new subject heading called american pop culture that can list references to Shiprock appearing in film, fiction and the like. Actually, I would also suggest a more general entry for film as rock with wings might be more approriate to the town of shiprock entry anyway. Diastar ( talk) 20:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
As this seems fairly innocuous, I went ahead and merged the two sections into In The Media. I will add a few items later. It would be great to have a source for the Helgrind mention. Additions?
Diastar ( talk) 18:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)diastar
Hello Everyone, I am going to delete the Tony Hillerman link from the 'See Also' list. There is no mention of Hillerman in the article; and no mention of Shiprock in the page on Hillerman. I don't think the reference link belongs here. Cheers.
SaturnCat (
talk)
07:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Shiprock, climbing Shiprock, and varying opinions on the subject of climbing it, feature prominently in the Tony Hillerman novel Fallen Man. It seems that it should at least be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.235.92.51 ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 11 January 2016
Article clean up.... Beautiful Mountain links to a redirect to Beinn Bhreagh, Nova Scotia. I guess Beautiful mountain should be corrected with a disam to the second one. working on that
Okie, the photo is sorted. Can we clean up the article? The actual name is not consistent. I think Ship Rock is a mis-spelling that appeared on maps, so we should note that and use Shiprock.
Some of the terminology is not clear and the mythology is quite vague. For a first time reader, maybe these things should be cleared up.
comments?
Diastar ( talk) 23:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
In keeping with the above suggestions, I have gone ahead and made several changes to the article. Ideally, the introduction is more of an introduction to the article and mentions the key topics covered. Pre-puebloan elements should be expanded. The name related items were shifted to the name section. I think it would make sense to kill Ship Rock - or mention that this is a common mis-spelling? The infamous infobox changes were per the above suggestions: reduction of first ascent to reduce clutter and clarification on easiest routes based on
Fajada Butte article. No public access would imply that people cannot go there, also not true, so this is a compromise. Suggestions are welcome.
The geology and legends still need work. That is next. There are a few more books and film references - maybe more? Details? Finally, I added an external link list. Comments and suggestions for future changes?
Diastar ( talk) 23:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)diastar Diastar ( talk) 10:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)diastar
What does this even mean?
"It lies about 12 by 20 miles (19 by 32 km) southwest of the town of Shiprock"
Never heard the phrase x by y miles, and I feel like I'm not alone. Should probably be clarified.
Amyrlin ( talk) 13:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
man this write-up is lollerballz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.178.253.186 ( talk) 19:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
I believe it may be accurate but it needs a reference. I know that may not be easy but mmm maybe the Navajo Nation website? Elinruby ( talk) 05:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)