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Trade: Official yet?
It would be beneficial for all of us to discuss this instead of simply reverting over and over until someone gets blocked.
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 02:45, 12 December 2012 (UTC)reply
It does seem to be official.
[1] –
Muboshgu (
talk) 03:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Ok, good. Now maybe we can look into the article naming situation.
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 03:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Requested move
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Support per
WP:COMMONNAME - specifically "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". Should also note that the Cincinnati Reds official roster has "Shin-Soo Choo".
Trut-h-urts man (
talk) 04:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
NB. I'd suggest WP:RM/TR for moves over hyphen redirects for these 4x articles
Cha-Seung Baek,
Jae-Kuk Ryu,
Jae-Weong Seo,
Chan-Ho Park for clarity for American readers and indeed Korean-speakers reading in English, at the moment these names fail WP:PRECISION between 백차승 vs. 차승백 etc. Impossible to tell which is surname without the hyphen that, given baseball context, means it could be either order.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 05:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
I'll let somebody else who understands those a little better handle them. However, I am curious as to what NB stands for?
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 05:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support. Articles should be listed according to their most common English language usage.
Spanneraol (
talk) 19:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support This is the English Wikipedia, not the Korean Wikipedia. I'm sure that this individual should be named the Korean language equivalent of "Choo Shin-Soo" on the Korean wiki, and should be listed as "Shin-Soo Choo" on the English wiki, as this is the only way I've ever seen him referred to in English sources. –
Muboshgu (
talk) 22:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support Just so it's clear where I stand and I'm now convinced I was right.
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 20:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support – User who moved it claims that "he was born in Korea, raised in Korea, and spent most of his life in Korea" and therefore his surname should go first. This is false. WP should be following the
common name of a player, which means the one he is commonly referred to in English. MLB.com refers to Choo with his surname last, just like it does with
Chan Ho Park,
Byung-Hyun Kim and
Ichiro Suzuki (and not Suzuki Ichiro as it is in Japanese). —
Bloom6132 (
talk) 01:04, 17 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support - I thought I already commented here, but that may have been the James Loney discussion, they all run together. Anyway, per the rationale above, I support the move back to the original title.
GoPhightins! 03:30, 17 December 2012 (UTC)reply
I've commented on
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean), but honestly I think WikiProject Korea should be at least given a teeny bit of acknowledgement by WP:Baseball here, and vice-versa. The solution above seems livable, the current state of
Talk:Cha Seung Baek isn't serving anyone.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 10:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Wow. You people (Eurocentrists) are quite amazing. Apparently, you believe the "English" language exists only in NA and Europe. Check this article written in English. [1]
That's the only requirement, correct? Any English paper written in East Asia will refer to him Choo Shin-soo.
Ducati748 (
talk) 03:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Why is his name in given-name, family-name order in the Hangul version?
185.223.162.62 (
talk) 04:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Requested move 14 November 2021
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This contradicts the capitalization used by
MLB,
ESPN, and many other reliable sources.
162 etc. (
talk) 20:46, 13 November 2021 (UTC)reply
See reasoning above - doesn't seem correct.
SnowFire (
talk) 07:05, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
@
162 etc. and
SnowFire: Their usage is unnecessary capitalization. All
Category:South Korean sportspeople's pages follow the convention with only the first syllable capitalized although many English sources use dual capitalization. After
Talk:An Ji-man#Requested move, all
Category:South Korean people's pages became to avoid unnecessary capitalization. North Korean people choose to spell their names with something like Chu Sin Su, Kim Jong Un. But English Wikipedia selects Sin-su, Jong-un.
Sawol (
talk) 18:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose move.WP:Naming conventions (Korean) states that "If there is no personal preference, and no established English spelling, hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized"; in this particular case, "Shin-Soo Choo" is the established English spelling, so that clause does not apply. O.N.R.(talk) 19:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)reply
As has already been pointed out above, Wikipedia policy is to follow common English-language usage. Consistency does not matter.
162 etc. (
talk) 17:24, 24 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose per 162 and ONR.
User:力 (powera,
π,
ν) 20:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Support. While I understand 162's reasoning that MLB.com, ESPN.com, and other similar sources have Choo's name capitalized as "Shin-Soo," those same sources do the exact same thing with other South Korean players' names (such as
Ji-man Choi and
Hyun-jin Ryu), yet as we can see, those articles' titles are capitalized the exact same way that Sawol proposes this one to be. In fact, looking through
Category:South Korean expatriate baseball players in the United States, this article is the only case of a player in that category with a hyphenated given name having the first letter of the second part of his name capitalized. Also, I disagree with ONR's interpretation of
WP:Naming conventions (Korean)#Given name, because this is a question of capitalization, not spelling. "Shin-soo" and "Shin-Soo" are the same spelling, but different capitalization, and "Shin-soo" is the capitalization that better follows
MOS:CAPS. --
Zander251 (
talk) 01:53, 25 November 2021 (UTC)reply
In the case of Choi's article, it appears that Sawol was simply trying to follow
WP:NC-KO, as stated in the explanation for the move. In the case of Ryu's article, the move discussion was primarily dealing with whether his given name or his surname should be first in the article's title; the capitalization issue was not actually discussed, even if the move proposal was made with the J in "Jin" capitalized. I was not a registered editor on Wikipedia at the time when either of those moves were made, but these are the impressions that I get from looking at them now.
That being said, it might make sense to have a discussion on moving those pages as well, but we should probably at least wait until this present discussion is settled first, since it won't make as much sense to discuss moving those pages to capitalized versions if this discussion were to result in this page being moved to the lowercase version. Also, a discussion about those pages would probably have to also include just about all of the articles in the category I previously mentioned, since just about all of them (except for the few without hyphens in their names) would fall under the same type of issue. But based on my understanding of Korean naming conventions, the lowercase versions seem correct for both this article and all of the others. --
Zander251 (
talk) 05:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Baseball, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
baseball on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BaseballWikipedia:WikiProject BaseballTemplate:WikiProject BaseballBaseball articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and contribute to the
discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.KoreaWikipedia:WikiProject KoreaTemplate:WikiProject KoreaKorea-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article has been
automatically rated by a
bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
Trade: Official yet?
It would be beneficial for all of us to discuss this instead of simply reverting over and over until someone gets blocked.
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 02:45, 12 December 2012 (UTC)reply
It does seem to be official.
[1] –
Muboshgu (
talk) 03:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Ok, good. Now maybe we can look into the article naming situation.
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 03:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Requested move
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Support per
WP:COMMONNAME - specifically "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". Should also note that the Cincinnati Reds official roster has "Shin-Soo Choo".
Trut-h-urts man (
talk) 04:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
NB. I'd suggest WP:RM/TR for moves over hyphen redirects for these 4x articles
Cha-Seung Baek,
Jae-Kuk Ryu,
Jae-Weong Seo,
Chan-Ho Park for clarity for American readers and indeed Korean-speakers reading in English, at the moment these names fail WP:PRECISION between 백차승 vs. 차승백 etc. Impossible to tell which is surname without the hyphen that, given baseball context, means it could be either order.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 05:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
I'll let somebody else who understands those a little better handle them. However, I am curious as to what NB stands for?
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 05:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support. Articles should be listed according to their most common English language usage.
Spanneraol (
talk) 19:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support This is the English Wikipedia, not the Korean Wikipedia. I'm sure that this individual should be named the Korean language equivalent of "Choo Shin-Soo" on the Korean wiki, and should be listed as "Shin-Soo Choo" on the English wiki, as this is the only way I've ever seen him referred to in English sources. –
Muboshgu (
talk) 22:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support Just so it's clear where I stand and I'm now convinced I was right.
AutomaticStrikeout (
T •
C) 20:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support – User who moved it claims that "he was born in Korea, raised in Korea, and spent most of his life in Korea" and therefore his surname should go first. This is false. WP should be following the
common name of a player, which means the one he is commonly referred to in English. MLB.com refers to Choo with his surname last, just like it does with
Chan Ho Park,
Byung-Hyun Kim and
Ichiro Suzuki (and not Suzuki Ichiro as it is in Japanese). —
Bloom6132 (
talk) 01:04, 17 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Support - I thought I already commented here, but that may have been the James Loney discussion, they all run together. Anyway, per the rationale above, I support the move back to the original title.
GoPhightins! 03:30, 17 December 2012 (UTC)reply
I've commented on
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean), but honestly I think WikiProject Korea should be at least given a teeny bit of acknowledgement by WP:Baseball here, and vice-versa. The solution above seems livable, the current state of
Talk:Cha Seung Baek isn't serving anyone.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 10:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Wow. You people (Eurocentrists) are quite amazing. Apparently, you believe the "English" language exists only in NA and Europe. Check this article written in English. [1]
That's the only requirement, correct? Any English paper written in East Asia will refer to him Choo Shin-soo.
Ducati748 (
talk) 03:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Why is his name in given-name, family-name order in the Hangul version?
185.223.162.62 (
talk) 04:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Requested move 14 November 2021
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This contradicts the capitalization used by
MLB,
ESPN, and many other reliable sources.
162 etc. (
talk) 20:46, 13 November 2021 (UTC)reply
See reasoning above - doesn't seem correct.
SnowFire (
talk) 07:05, 14 November 2021 (UTC)reply
@
162 etc. and
SnowFire: Their usage is unnecessary capitalization. All
Category:South Korean sportspeople's pages follow the convention with only the first syllable capitalized although many English sources use dual capitalization. After
Talk:An Ji-man#Requested move, all
Category:South Korean people's pages became to avoid unnecessary capitalization. North Korean people choose to spell their names with something like Chu Sin Su, Kim Jong Un. But English Wikipedia selects Sin-su, Jong-un.
Sawol (
talk) 18:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose move.WP:Naming conventions (Korean) states that "If there is no personal preference, and no established English spelling, hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized"; in this particular case, "Shin-Soo Choo" is the established English spelling, so that clause does not apply. O.N.R.(talk) 19:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)reply
As has already been pointed out above, Wikipedia policy is to follow common English-language usage. Consistency does not matter.
162 etc. (
talk) 17:24, 24 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose per 162 and ONR.
User:力 (powera,
π,
ν) 20:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Support. While I understand 162's reasoning that MLB.com, ESPN.com, and other similar sources have Choo's name capitalized as "Shin-Soo," those same sources do the exact same thing with other South Korean players' names (such as
Ji-man Choi and
Hyun-jin Ryu), yet as we can see, those articles' titles are capitalized the exact same way that Sawol proposes this one to be. In fact, looking through
Category:South Korean expatriate baseball players in the United States, this article is the only case of a player in that category with a hyphenated given name having the first letter of the second part of his name capitalized. Also, I disagree with ONR's interpretation of
WP:Naming conventions (Korean)#Given name, because this is a question of capitalization, not spelling. "Shin-soo" and "Shin-Soo" are the same spelling, but different capitalization, and "Shin-soo" is the capitalization that better follows
MOS:CAPS. --
Zander251 (
talk) 01:53, 25 November 2021 (UTC)reply
In the case of Choi's article, it appears that Sawol was simply trying to follow
WP:NC-KO, as stated in the explanation for the move. In the case of Ryu's article, the move discussion was primarily dealing with whether his given name or his surname should be first in the article's title; the capitalization issue was not actually discussed, even if the move proposal was made with the J in "Jin" capitalized. I was not a registered editor on Wikipedia at the time when either of those moves were made, but these are the impressions that I get from looking at them now.
That being said, it might make sense to have a discussion on moving those pages as well, but we should probably at least wait until this present discussion is settled first, since it won't make as much sense to discuss moving those pages to capitalized versions if this discussion were to result in this page being moved to the lowercase version. Also, a discussion about those pages would probably have to also include just about all of the articles in the category I previously mentioned, since just about all of them (except for the few without hyphens in their names) would fall under the same type of issue. But based on my understanding of Korean naming conventions, the lowercase versions seem correct for both this article and all of the others. --
Zander251 (
talk) 05:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.