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the article needs to tell something about the PEOPLE who SPEAK the language. Gringo300 07:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
One of the very first treatises of Tashelhiyt in European philological literature is Jones, dissertatio de lingua Shilhensi, which itself is part of John Chamberlayn's (1715) collection of language samples titled Dissertationes ex occasione sylloges orationum Dominicarum scriptae (Amsterdam: Willem & David Goeree).
A Berber (Tashelhiyt) version of the Lord's Prayer gives in Jones (1715) is cited in Adelung & Vater's Mithridates, vol. III, p. 54. The first sentence, along with the German interlinear glosses, runs thus:
It would prove very interesting to compare this (admittedly mangled) tašlḥiyt with the products of the Sous literary tradition of that time. — mark ✎ 20:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Beginning July 2015, Ahulandiy ( talk · contribs) has been making many changes to the article. Work is still in progress (September 2015). Several long sections (on Shilha literature and premodern spelling) were moved to other articles ( Shilha literature and Berber orthography) and replaced with shorter sections. Most other sections were expanded. The article now more narrowly focuses on the language. It may end up being on the long side, but this is justified by the almost total lack of publications on Tashelhiyt in English, while many of the French and German sources are severely dated.
Recently, 84.178.201.155 ( talk · contribs) made the following changes to the article:
— mark ✎ 10:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
According to Abdallah El Mountassir, Tachelhit has 31 consonants. [1] I believe their IPA values are [b d d̴ f g gʷ ʁ ʁʷ h ħ χ χʷ ʒ k kʷ l m n q qʷ r s s̴ ʃ t t̴ w j z z̴ ʕ]. There is also phonemic consonant lenghthening (gemination).
These are all consonants common to Maghrebi Berber languages (Rif and Kabyle have a few more). I'd rather get further verification before I'd edit the article itself. -- LudwigVan 11:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have added a couple of {fact} tags in the verb section. I could have added more. It seems to me that the situation has rather more explanations than the one offered as standard in this article. For example, we are saying that there are four basic forms of the verb. However in Campbell 1995 under the "Berber" chapter I read:
Three bases are distinguishable: (1) C1C2; (2) C1C2C2 + a; (3) C1C2 + i/a [...]. It is customary to designate these bases, (1) aorist-imperative, (2) strengthened aorist, (3) preterite. Exactly how these bases are related to tense and mood – if, indeed, the categories of tense and mood can be usefully applied to the Berber verb – is a controversial question. Different researchers have distinguished an aorist and a preterite, a past tense from a present/future, a present/past from a future; some make an aspectual distinction between perfective and imperfective.
Etc. My small Initiation à la Langue Berbère – Tachelhit by Mohammed Lamzoudi (Casablanca 2005) also agrees that there are three basic forms, although he calls them very different things: the impératif immédiat, the impératif perpetuel, and the "rare" indicatif. So either we try to explain some of the different approaches or we should say whose individual view we are supporting here. Widsith ( talk) 21:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Is the same Berber Latin alphabet used for Tachelhiyt as for Kabyle, or is a different version used? Mo-Al ( talk) 05:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC) yes,it is the same
This statement...
Derived verb forms exist: a causative s, medial m (or nasal), and passive tt... can be recognized, as in muddu 'travel' from ddu go' + medial, or smugr 'meet each other' from gr 'touch' + causative + medial. However, derivation is no longer productive, i.e. speakers no longer consciously produce causatives, medials, or passives by applying derivative morphology to verbs.
... doesn't seem to be right. Medials might not in fact be productive, but I think a good case could be made that causative and passive prefixing is still very productive in Tashlhiyt. Speakers regularly add these prefixes to base verbs (kšm "to enter" --> skšm "to bring in"), including more recent lexical additions from Arabic (dwwx "to be dizzy" --> sdwwx "to make dizzy"). Since the t-prefixing for passivity model is identical to that of Moroccan Arabic, and a lot of the more recent innovations in Tashlhiyt come from that source, it's harder to argue, but it could definitely be interpreted as productive. In any case I think the aforementioned statement needs to sourced or, if not, removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.233.19 ( talk) 19:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
The User:Kwamikagami (has changed the name of Article from Tachelhit Language to "shilha language") The entire article has Deteriorated and lost its Credibility due to the change of name. “shilha" is a Moroccan Arabic term and spelling (for all Berber Languages of Morocco) The Term "shilha" is Vague term (Moroccan Arabic ) that describes all varieties of Berber Languages in general (Morocco).
_ Middle- Atlas shilha
_ Rif shilha
_ High-Atlas (souss) shilha
Linguistically, The proper term is (Tachelhit ) it is an Anglophone spelling, as well as a native , spelling. Linguistically, All English and French authors use the spelling Tachelhit. Chleuh is both English and French term. plural : Chleuhs “Shilha people” is not a proper grammar usage..., anyway.... its like saying (English People to “Englishs” people )
NOTE: the term shilha is no longer in use . Its rename Amazigh or Imazighen More over, (Tachelhit is called “Atlas language” of Morocco or “Atlas Tamazight Language). Both Tachelhit Page and central-Morocco Tamazight page, Articles should be place under one Page call ``Atlas Language`` or “Atlas Tamazight language”
Classification of Berber languages
Group 1. Atlas Language or Tachelhit *(Wikipedia page (central-Morocco Tamazight) )
Group 2. Zenati language or Tazenatit, Rif
Group 3. Kabyle
Group 4. Touareg, Ghadamsi
Group 5. Zenaga of" Mauntania
References Shilha’ is the Arabic name for Moroccan Berber language varieties in general [2]
'Shilha' is the Moroccan Arabic name for all Berber dialects in general (Morocco) [3]
( Adrar ( talk) 16:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
Yes ( Affixes for Tamazight - Amazigh or Imazighen) Affixes (Tachelhit Chleuh or Chleuhs or Ichelhiyn)
False , "shilha" is a Moroccan Arabic Term. Yes “as far back as 1931” for all Berber language dialects of Morocco. The page should be renamed back to it’s original name (Tachelhit Language)
as for Merging. yes, a worthwhile project. ( Adrar ( talk) 17:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
I should know, I speak the Berber language and study it. I undertsand the differences (I give you all list of the reasoning that support the issue.) ( Adrar ( talk) 18:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
Tachelhit or Tashelhiyt is the most Common use in the English language. [6] (Ra nsawal Tachelhit)
It would be best to restore the page to it’s original name, in the meantime.
Merging these Pages central-Morocco Tamazight, Atlas-Languages, and Tashelhiyt would require your contribution and a talk with other users and page creator . ( Adrar ( talk) 19:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
in English publishing world and the Moroccan publishing all sources use the "Tachelhit" and it's more clear , just like the word [Tamazight].
in the meantime. Can you change the title Page back to (Tashelhiyt Language) like it was before. thanks ( Adrar ( talk) 21:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
I have listed just the things I have in my personal library and a few other references in English (sources in any other language do not serve as evidence of English usage) and do not represent this as a thorough review of the linguistic literature, nor do I claim that this is the final answer--it's just a start and subject to discussion. -- Taivo ( talk) 10:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Added a few more, including the EB and LOC. — kwami ( talk) 18:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
·Maunus·ƛ· 13:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Linguists working on the language have been using the name Tashelhiyt exclusively for the past two or three decades. The name Shilha apparently continues to be used by some non-linguists. The article is still entitled "Shilha language", but the text of the article now uses "Tashelhiyt". It is a linguistic article, and the convention among modern linguists is to call a language by its own name, not by somebody else's name. Reading the leader should prevent any confusion. -- Ahulandiy ( talk · contribs) talk 07 September 2015
It seems to me that a name used both in academic and lay literature would be more accessible to the average reader than one used primarily in specialist lit, and better follows WP:COMMONNAME. Per that guideline, technical terms are not preferred simply because they're technical; often common names are used rather than "a more elaborate, formal, or scientific alternative". When several terms are of comparably frequent use, other considerations should be used, such as "titles which follow the same pattern as those of similar articles are often preferred". (For example, we use the anglicized form of Kabyle, without the ta-t affixes, and following that pattern we would drop the affixes here.) — kwami ( talk) 17:53, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Uchronicle, one thing that would be helpful would be spelling out the name in Tifinagh and in Shilha Arabic. — kwami ( talk) 01:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
The usual referent in English of the term Shilha (and Tachelhit, šəlħa, tašəlħiyt) is the language of SW Morocco discussed here. However, the same word is also used to refer to Berber dialects all across the northern Sahara - notably in Tunisia (eg [12] [13]), but also for South Oran Berber and Touggourt Berber. It is also used locally to refer to the Songhay language Korandje. A disambiguation link at the top might be helpful for some readers. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 20:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I strongly think that this move was a huge and rather ridiculous mistake due Cultural/Specialist bias. The pages that were moved were stable since their creation in 2005. From this page and the history of the concerned articles, you can see that several editors have contested the move and tried to move manually, that gives you an idea how of unusual this name is (Where is
WP:Consensus in this?).
What's funny is that arguments used by the people/person who performed this move (
WP:English and
WP:Commonname) actually support the proponents position. This is rather an old name used by so-called "specialists" loaned from
Moroccan Arabic totally vague and inaccurate to the subject matter of the article.
I'm compiling evidence to request a move, this entire story is rather irritating, and an instance of Wikipedia failure: Obscure subjects do not get enough attention and thus error risk is higher--
Tachfin (
talk) 00:21, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request its removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
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Can we please change the name of the article and get it back to the name of "Tachelhit" istead of "Shilha" ? Ayour2002 ( talk) 00:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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the article needs to tell something about the PEOPLE who SPEAK the language. Gringo300 07:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
One of the very first treatises of Tashelhiyt in European philological literature is Jones, dissertatio de lingua Shilhensi, which itself is part of John Chamberlayn's (1715) collection of language samples titled Dissertationes ex occasione sylloges orationum Dominicarum scriptae (Amsterdam: Willem & David Goeree).
A Berber (Tashelhiyt) version of the Lord's Prayer gives in Jones (1715) is cited in Adelung & Vater's Mithridates, vol. III, p. 54. The first sentence, along with the German interlinear glosses, runs thus:
It would prove very interesting to compare this (admittedly mangled) tašlḥiyt with the products of the Sous literary tradition of that time. — mark ✎ 20:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Beginning July 2015, Ahulandiy ( talk · contribs) has been making many changes to the article. Work is still in progress (September 2015). Several long sections (on Shilha literature and premodern spelling) were moved to other articles ( Shilha literature and Berber orthography) and replaced with shorter sections. Most other sections were expanded. The article now more narrowly focuses on the language. It may end up being on the long side, but this is justified by the almost total lack of publications on Tashelhiyt in English, while many of the French and German sources are severely dated.
Recently, 84.178.201.155 ( talk · contribs) made the following changes to the article:
— mark ✎ 10:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
According to Abdallah El Mountassir, Tachelhit has 31 consonants. [1] I believe their IPA values are [b d d̴ f g gʷ ʁ ʁʷ h ħ χ χʷ ʒ k kʷ l m n q qʷ r s s̴ ʃ t t̴ w j z z̴ ʕ]. There is also phonemic consonant lenghthening (gemination).
These are all consonants common to Maghrebi Berber languages (Rif and Kabyle have a few more). I'd rather get further verification before I'd edit the article itself. -- LudwigVan 11:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have added a couple of {fact} tags in the verb section. I could have added more. It seems to me that the situation has rather more explanations than the one offered as standard in this article. For example, we are saying that there are four basic forms of the verb. However in Campbell 1995 under the "Berber" chapter I read:
Three bases are distinguishable: (1) C1C2; (2) C1C2C2 + a; (3) C1C2 + i/a [...]. It is customary to designate these bases, (1) aorist-imperative, (2) strengthened aorist, (3) preterite. Exactly how these bases are related to tense and mood – if, indeed, the categories of tense and mood can be usefully applied to the Berber verb – is a controversial question. Different researchers have distinguished an aorist and a preterite, a past tense from a present/future, a present/past from a future; some make an aspectual distinction between perfective and imperfective.
Etc. My small Initiation à la Langue Berbère – Tachelhit by Mohammed Lamzoudi (Casablanca 2005) also agrees that there are three basic forms, although he calls them very different things: the impératif immédiat, the impératif perpetuel, and the "rare" indicatif. So either we try to explain some of the different approaches or we should say whose individual view we are supporting here. Widsith ( talk) 21:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Is the same Berber Latin alphabet used for Tachelhiyt as for Kabyle, or is a different version used? Mo-Al ( talk) 05:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC) yes,it is the same
This statement...
Derived verb forms exist: a causative s, medial m (or nasal), and passive tt... can be recognized, as in muddu 'travel' from ddu go' + medial, or smugr 'meet each other' from gr 'touch' + causative + medial. However, derivation is no longer productive, i.e. speakers no longer consciously produce causatives, medials, or passives by applying derivative morphology to verbs.
... doesn't seem to be right. Medials might not in fact be productive, but I think a good case could be made that causative and passive prefixing is still very productive in Tashlhiyt. Speakers regularly add these prefixes to base verbs (kšm "to enter" --> skšm "to bring in"), including more recent lexical additions from Arabic (dwwx "to be dizzy" --> sdwwx "to make dizzy"). Since the t-prefixing for passivity model is identical to that of Moroccan Arabic, and a lot of the more recent innovations in Tashlhiyt come from that source, it's harder to argue, but it could definitely be interpreted as productive. In any case I think the aforementioned statement needs to sourced or, if not, removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.233.19 ( talk) 19:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
The User:Kwamikagami (has changed the name of Article from Tachelhit Language to "shilha language") The entire article has Deteriorated and lost its Credibility due to the change of name. “shilha" is a Moroccan Arabic term and spelling (for all Berber Languages of Morocco) The Term "shilha" is Vague term (Moroccan Arabic ) that describes all varieties of Berber Languages in general (Morocco).
_ Middle- Atlas shilha
_ Rif shilha
_ High-Atlas (souss) shilha
Linguistically, The proper term is (Tachelhit ) it is an Anglophone spelling, as well as a native , spelling. Linguistically, All English and French authors use the spelling Tachelhit. Chleuh is both English and French term. plural : Chleuhs “Shilha people” is not a proper grammar usage..., anyway.... its like saying (English People to “Englishs” people )
NOTE: the term shilha is no longer in use . Its rename Amazigh or Imazighen More over, (Tachelhit is called “Atlas language” of Morocco or “Atlas Tamazight Language). Both Tachelhit Page and central-Morocco Tamazight page, Articles should be place under one Page call ``Atlas Language`` or “Atlas Tamazight language”
Classification of Berber languages
Group 1. Atlas Language or Tachelhit *(Wikipedia page (central-Morocco Tamazight) )
Group 2. Zenati language or Tazenatit, Rif
Group 3. Kabyle
Group 4. Touareg, Ghadamsi
Group 5. Zenaga of" Mauntania
References Shilha’ is the Arabic name for Moroccan Berber language varieties in general [2]
'Shilha' is the Moroccan Arabic name for all Berber dialects in general (Morocco) [3]
( Adrar ( talk) 16:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
Yes ( Affixes for Tamazight - Amazigh or Imazighen) Affixes (Tachelhit Chleuh or Chleuhs or Ichelhiyn)
False , "shilha" is a Moroccan Arabic Term. Yes “as far back as 1931” for all Berber language dialects of Morocco. The page should be renamed back to it’s original name (Tachelhit Language)
as for Merging. yes, a worthwhile project. ( Adrar ( talk) 17:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
I should know, I speak the Berber language and study it. I undertsand the differences (I give you all list of the reasoning that support the issue.) ( Adrar ( talk) 18:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
Tachelhit or Tashelhiyt is the most Common use in the English language. [6] (Ra nsawal Tachelhit)
It would be best to restore the page to it’s original name, in the meantime.
Merging these Pages central-Morocco Tamazight, Atlas-Languages, and Tashelhiyt would require your contribution and a talk with other users and page creator . ( Adrar ( talk) 19:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
in English publishing world and the Moroccan publishing all sources use the "Tachelhit" and it's more clear , just like the word [Tamazight].
in the meantime. Can you change the title Page back to (Tashelhiyt Language) like it was before. thanks ( Adrar ( talk) 21:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
I have listed just the things I have in my personal library and a few other references in English (sources in any other language do not serve as evidence of English usage) and do not represent this as a thorough review of the linguistic literature, nor do I claim that this is the final answer--it's just a start and subject to discussion. -- Taivo ( talk) 10:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Added a few more, including the EB and LOC. — kwami ( talk) 18:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
·Maunus·ƛ· 13:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Linguists working on the language have been using the name Tashelhiyt exclusively for the past two or three decades. The name Shilha apparently continues to be used by some non-linguists. The article is still entitled "Shilha language", but the text of the article now uses "Tashelhiyt". It is a linguistic article, and the convention among modern linguists is to call a language by its own name, not by somebody else's name. Reading the leader should prevent any confusion. -- Ahulandiy ( talk · contribs) talk 07 September 2015
It seems to me that a name used both in academic and lay literature would be more accessible to the average reader than one used primarily in specialist lit, and better follows WP:COMMONNAME. Per that guideline, technical terms are not preferred simply because they're technical; often common names are used rather than "a more elaborate, formal, or scientific alternative". When several terms are of comparably frequent use, other considerations should be used, such as "titles which follow the same pattern as those of similar articles are often preferred". (For example, we use the anglicized form of Kabyle, without the ta-t affixes, and following that pattern we would drop the affixes here.) — kwami ( talk) 17:53, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Uchronicle, one thing that would be helpful would be spelling out the name in Tifinagh and in Shilha Arabic. — kwami ( talk) 01:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
The usual referent in English of the term Shilha (and Tachelhit, šəlħa, tašəlħiyt) is the language of SW Morocco discussed here. However, the same word is also used to refer to Berber dialects all across the northern Sahara - notably in Tunisia (eg [12] [13]), but also for South Oran Berber and Touggourt Berber. It is also used locally to refer to the Songhay language Korandje. A disambiguation link at the top might be helpful for some readers. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 20:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I strongly think that this move was a huge and rather ridiculous mistake due Cultural/Specialist bias. The pages that were moved were stable since their creation in 2005. From this page and the history of the concerned articles, you can see that several editors have contested the move and tried to move manually, that gives you an idea how of unusual this name is (Where is
WP:Consensus in this?).
What's funny is that arguments used by the people/person who performed this move (
WP:English and
WP:Commonname) actually support the proponents position. This is rather an old name used by so-called "specialists" loaned from
Moroccan Arabic totally vague and inaccurate to the subject matter of the article.
I'm compiling evidence to request a move, this entire story is rather irritating, and an instance of Wikipedia failure: Obscure subjects do not get enough attention and thus error risk is higher--
Tachfin (
talk) 00:21, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request its removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
\bhalshs\.archives-ouvertes\.fr
on the global blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 15:24, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Shilha language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Can we please change the name of the article and get it back to the name of "Tachelhit" istead of "Shilha" ? Ayour2002 ( talk) 00:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)