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I found it somewhere:
در اوستا اگرچه از نام خلیج فارس بطور صریح نام برده نشده اما در مهر یشت در مبحث مهر یا میترا اشارهای نیز به اروندرود شدهاست که در آن دوره «ارونگ» گفته میشدهاست و چنین آمده:
«دارنده دشتهای فراخ» و «اسبهای تیزرو» که از سخن راستین آگاه است و پهلوانی است خوش اندام و نبرد آزما، دارای هزار گوش و هزار چشم و هزار چستی و چالاکی یاد شده، کسی است که جنگ و پیروزی با اوست، هرگز نمیخسبد، هرگز فریب نمیخورد، اگر کسی با او پیمان شکند خواه در شرق هندوستان باشد یا بر دهنه شط ارنگ، از ناوک او گریز ندارد، او نخستین ایزد معنوی است که پیش از طلوع خورشید فنا ناپذیر تیز اسب بر بالای کوه هرا بر میآید و از آن جایگاه بلند سراسر منزلگاههای آریایی را مینگرد.
It says that in Avesta in Mihr yasht it's name has been mentioned. But I checked mihr yasht, and It was not there. Can someone recheck it, as I'm sure it is there in Avesta. -- Wayiran ( talk) 18:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- XXVII
- 104. 'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake; 'Whose long arms, strong with Mithra-strength, encompass what he seizes in the easternmost river and what he beats with the westernmost river, what is by the Sanaka of the Rangha and what is by the boundary of the earth.
On 15 March 2009 Wayiran
added to the article the following unqualified assertion: Also "Arang", the other form of "Arvand", has been mentioned in [the] Avesta. The accompanying reference: Avesta, Mihr yasht, section 27, paragraph 104. (the text cited by BF above).
It has two problems: it doesn't appear to be correct, and as currently presented it is a direct interpretation of a very complex primary source (thus infringing our no original research policy, which clearly states that [a]ny interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.).
Iranica's article on the Arvand-Ruud clearly asserts that no river "Arvand" is mentioned in the Avesta (or in the Bundahishn). As for the identification of the Rangha river of the Avesta (described in Iranica's article on the Arang as "primarily mythical") with the Arvand, the article on the Arvand-Ruud points either to:
This is hardly surprising, considering that -as Iranica's article on Avestan geography mentions- "[g]eographical references in the Avesta are limited to the regions on the eastern Iranian plateau and on the Indo-Iranian border."
In short, no Arvand or Shatt al-Arab in the Avesta. - Best, Ev ( talk) 15:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Fullstop: "Avesta knows nothing about places in Western Iran (leave alone places in Mesopotamia/Babylonia)" , on which basis are you saying this? -- Wayiran ( talk) 17:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
The word arvand is the Middle Persian rendering of "Arang" ? According to whom ? And why would that matter to the article on the Shatt al-Arab ? - Ev ( talk) 18:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
No, I don't agree with you. I don't have time to discuss, and this discussion page is not the place to discuss whether Avestan geography refers to eastern Iran or western Iran. The fact is that it covers both. You should read the famous book of Dr. Jahanshah Derakhshani regarding this issue, and I can't type all of it over here. It has been well discussed there. Besides that, traditional history due to it's myths is not necessarily considered as a mythological issue, but the history can be taken out from it. Today characters like Solomon are considered as historical characters, whereas he has only been mentioned in Bible, and not in any other historical source. Hopefuuuuuuuuuuly you accepted some of my points. -- Wayiran ( talk) 05:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
BTW, where has Ferdowsi said about Alborz in east??
These are all the beyts in which Ferdowsi has used "Alborz":
برم خوب رخ را به البرز کوه شوم ناپديد از ميان گروه
ز البرز کوه اندر آمد به دشت چو بگذشت ازان بر فريدون دو هشت
برانگيخت ما را ز البرز کوه که يزدان پاک از ميان گروه
که بودش بدانجا کنام و گروه ببردش دمان تا به البرز کوه
به البرز کوه اندر آن زشت جاي برفتم به فرمان گيهان خداي
چو باز آوريدم ز البرز کوه به پيمان چنين رفت پيش گروه
بران کوه البرز بردن گروه وزان جا کشيدن سوي زاوه کوه
گزين کن يکي لشکر همگروه برو تازيان تا به البرز کوه
يکي جايگه ديد برنا شکوه يکي ميل ره تا به البرز کوه
به کاري که بسيار دارد شکوه مرا رفت بايد به البرز کوه
قباد دلاور ببين با گروه مرا گفت رو تا به البرز کوه
کنون آمدم شادمان با گروه چنانم که گويي ز البرز کوه
که ديو اندران رنجها شد ستوه يکي خانه کرد اندر البرز کوه
وگر کوه البرز در جوشنست تو گفتي جهان سر به سر آهنست
که از کوه البرز تا برگ ني به رستم چنين گفت کاووس کي
وگر کوه البرز در جوشنست تو گفتي يکي بارهي آهنست
تلي گشته چون کوه البرز جاي هميبرد هر کس بر سوفزاي
به مردي جهاندار شد با گروه قباد آنک آمد ز البرز کوه
Even if he has mentioned that it shows that the Iranians were in west of Alborz mountain, so you have agreed that Avestan geography covers western Iran, upto Egypt too. -- Wayiran ( talk) 06:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Fullstop didn't answer. "Hara brazaiti" (which is the Avestan form of Alborz) has a common part with Semic languages and that is "Hara" which in both means "mountain". This similarity shows that they have not been too far. Fereydun had 3 sons, Salm, Iraj, Tur, Salm had the control of WEstern Iran, probably the geographical area of Roman empire, Iraj had Iran in center, and Tur had east, upto China. Best. -- Wayiran ( talk) 14:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
For that Hara, you can see Armageddon, which is "Har-Majdo" which means "mountain of Majdo" and is supposed to be the place where last war of Truth and Devil takes place. -- Wayiran ( talk) 14:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The following comments were copied here from Wayiran's talk page. - Ev ( talk) 18:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Why does the text "misrepresent the sources" in your view? --Wayiran (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, I agree that before any well academic research on the issue we can't consider "Arang" as an absolute actual river. Again I agree that before any academic research on it, we can't say that absolutely it was Tigris, as it had other interpretations like Nile and etc too, and again Tigris itself is an Iranian/Aryan word:
در متون سومري به دجله، «ديگنه» گفته ميشد كه همان «دجله» عربي يا «تيگره» فارسي باستان است كه در زبان هخامنشي ثبت شده و ريشه آن «تيگر» به معني تند است كه در زبان يوناني هم «تيگريس» همان دجله است. زبانشناسان واژه «ديگنه» را به هيچوجه سومري نميدانند، پس در نظر سومرشناسان اين رود تاكنون بدون ريشه مشخص بوده است اما در زبان آريايي معني دارد. «تيگره» در زبان آريايي به معني تند است. واژههاي تيغ و تيز هم از همين ريشهاند. در زبان انگليسي هم «TIGER» به معني حيوان تندپا يا ببر از همين ريشه است.
Rough Translation: In Sumerian texts, Tigris was called as "Digne" that is same as Arabic "Dejle" or "Tigre" of Old-Persian. Phonologists don't consider "Digne" as a Sumerian word at all, So in the view of Sumerologists this river has remained without any specific root up to now, but it has a meaning in Aryan language. "Tigre" in Aryan language [or language of Aryans] means "swift". [Persian] words "Tigh" and "Tiz" are also from the same root. Also in English language, "Tiger" with the meaning of a fast animal or tiger is from the same root.
Source: here, Also you can read other books of Jahanshah Derakhshani, whcih are having vast amount of material regarding the roots of Aryan civilization in Middle east and West Asia.
But the important thing is that the sentence in article says "WHICH TENDS TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH ARVAND", It is clear that it is not saying absolutely Avestan Arang, refers to Tigris, but it says it tends to be identified with. -- Wayiran ( talk) 15:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I just did a web search for "presitful". Every hit seems to be copied from this article, except a reference to "vice presitful". Clearly some word was mangled, but I find nothing like it in the referenced article ( Danube River). Can someone guess what word(s) were meant? Randall Bart Talk 20:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
arvand rud is the real name of this river.this is an old name. shat al-arab is a false name and all know this. please change the subject of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.132.209.113 ( talk) 16:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Shat all Arabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:410A:D400:F1C7:FBA2:7C6F:1F05 ( talk) 19:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
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When and how did this form? Sarsath3 ( talk) 00:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shatt al-Arab article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I found it somewhere:
در اوستا اگرچه از نام خلیج فارس بطور صریح نام برده نشده اما در مهر یشت در مبحث مهر یا میترا اشارهای نیز به اروندرود شدهاست که در آن دوره «ارونگ» گفته میشدهاست و چنین آمده:
«دارنده دشتهای فراخ» و «اسبهای تیزرو» که از سخن راستین آگاه است و پهلوانی است خوش اندام و نبرد آزما، دارای هزار گوش و هزار چشم و هزار چستی و چالاکی یاد شده، کسی است که جنگ و پیروزی با اوست، هرگز نمیخسبد، هرگز فریب نمیخورد، اگر کسی با او پیمان شکند خواه در شرق هندوستان باشد یا بر دهنه شط ارنگ، از ناوک او گریز ندارد، او نخستین ایزد معنوی است که پیش از طلوع خورشید فنا ناپذیر تیز اسب بر بالای کوه هرا بر میآید و از آن جایگاه بلند سراسر منزلگاههای آریایی را مینگرد.
It says that in Avesta in Mihr yasht it's name has been mentioned. But I checked mihr yasht, and It was not there. Can someone recheck it, as I'm sure it is there in Avesta. -- Wayiran ( talk) 18:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- XXVII
- 104. 'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake; 'Whose long arms, strong with Mithra-strength, encompass what he seizes in the easternmost river and what he beats with the westernmost river, what is by the Sanaka of the Rangha and what is by the boundary of the earth.
On 15 March 2009 Wayiran
added to the article the following unqualified assertion: Also "Arang", the other form of "Arvand", has been mentioned in [the] Avesta. The accompanying reference: Avesta, Mihr yasht, section 27, paragraph 104. (the text cited by BF above).
It has two problems: it doesn't appear to be correct, and as currently presented it is a direct interpretation of a very complex primary source (thus infringing our no original research policy, which clearly states that [a]ny interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.).
Iranica's article on the Arvand-Ruud clearly asserts that no river "Arvand" is mentioned in the Avesta (or in the Bundahishn). As for the identification of the Rangha river of the Avesta (described in Iranica's article on the Arang as "primarily mythical") with the Arvand, the article on the Arvand-Ruud points either to:
This is hardly surprising, considering that -as Iranica's article on Avestan geography mentions- "[g]eographical references in the Avesta are limited to the regions on the eastern Iranian plateau and on the Indo-Iranian border."
In short, no Arvand or Shatt al-Arab in the Avesta. - Best, Ev ( talk) 15:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Fullstop: "Avesta knows nothing about places in Western Iran (leave alone places in Mesopotamia/Babylonia)" , on which basis are you saying this? -- Wayiran ( talk) 17:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
The word arvand is the Middle Persian rendering of "Arang" ? According to whom ? And why would that matter to the article on the Shatt al-Arab ? - Ev ( talk) 18:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
No, I don't agree with you. I don't have time to discuss, and this discussion page is not the place to discuss whether Avestan geography refers to eastern Iran or western Iran. The fact is that it covers both. You should read the famous book of Dr. Jahanshah Derakhshani regarding this issue, and I can't type all of it over here. It has been well discussed there. Besides that, traditional history due to it's myths is not necessarily considered as a mythological issue, but the history can be taken out from it. Today characters like Solomon are considered as historical characters, whereas he has only been mentioned in Bible, and not in any other historical source. Hopefuuuuuuuuuuly you accepted some of my points. -- Wayiran ( talk) 05:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
BTW, where has Ferdowsi said about Alborz in east??
These are all the beyts in which Ferdowsi has used "Alborz":
برم خوب رخ را به البرز کوه شوم ناپديد از ميان گروه
ز البرز کوه اندر آمد به دشت چو بگذشت ازان بر فريدون دو هشت
برانگيخت ما را ز البرز کوه که يزدان پاک از ميان گروه
که بودش بدانجا کنام و گروه ببردش دمان تا به البرز کوه
به البرز کوه اندر آن زشت جاي برفتم به فرمان گيهان خداي
چو باز آوريدم ز البرز کوه به پيمان چنين رفت پيش گروه
بران کوه البرز بردن گروه وزان جا کشيدن سوي زاوه کوه
گزين کن يکي لشکر همگروه برو تازيان تا به البرز کوه
يکي جايگه ديد برنا شکوه يکي ميل ره تا به البرز کوه
به کاري که بسيار دارد شکوه مرا رفت بايد به البرز کوه
قباد دلاور ببين با گروه مرا گفت رو تا به البرز کوه
کنون آمدم شادمان با گروه چنانم که گويي ز البرز کوه
که ديو اندران رنجها شد ستوه يکي خانه کرد اندر البرز کوه
وگر کوه البرز در جوشنست تو گفتي جهان سر به سر آهنست
که از کوه البرز تا برگ ني به رستم چنين گفت کاووس کي
وگر کوه البرز در جوشنست تو گفتي يکي بارهي آهنست
تلي گشته چون کوه البرز جاي هميبرد هر کس بر سوفزاي
به مردي جهاندار شد با گروه قباد آنک آمد ز البرز کوه
Even if he has mentioned that it shows that the Iranians were in west of Alborz mountain, so you have agreed that Avestan geography covers western Iran, upto Egypt too. -- Wayiran ( talk) 06:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Fullstop didn't answer. "Hara brazaiti" (which is the Avestan form of Alborz) has a common part with Semic languages and that is "Hara" which in both means "mountain". This similarity shows that they have not been too far. Fereydun had 3 sons, Salm, Iraj, Tur, Salm had the control of WEstern Iran, probably the geographical area of Roman empire, Iraj had Iran in center, and Tur had east, upto China. Best. -- Wayiran ( talk) 14:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
For that Hara, you can see Armageddon, which is "Har-Majdo" which means "mountain of Majdo" and is supposed to be the place where last war of Truth and Devil takes place. -- Wayiran ( talk) 14:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The following comments were copied here from Wayiran's talk page. - Ev ( talk) 18:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Why does the text "misrepresent the sources" in your view? --Wayiran (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, I agree that before any well academic research on the issue we can't consider "Arang" as an absolute actual river. Again I agree that before any academic research on it, we can't say that absolutely it was Tigris, as it had other interpretations like Nile and etc too, and again Tigris itself is an Iranian/Aryan word:
در متون سومري به دجله، «ديگنه» گفته ميشد كه همان «دجله» عربي يا «تيگره» فارسي باستان است كه در زبان هخامنشي ثبت شده و ريشه آن «تيگر» به معني تند است كه در زبان يوناني هم «تيگريس» همان دجله است. زبانشناسان واژه «ديگنه» را به هيچوجه سومري نميدانند، پس در نظر سومرشناسان اين رود تاكنون بدون ريشه مشخص بوده است اما در زبان آريايي معني دارد. «تيگره» در زبان آريايي به معني تند است. واژههاي تيغ و تيز هم از همين ريشهاند. در زبان انگليسي هم «TIGER» به معني حيوان تندپا يا ببر از همين ريشه است.
Rough Translation: In Sumerian texts, Tigris was called as "Digne" that is same as Arabic "Dejle" or "Tigre" of Old-Persian. Phonologists don't consider "Digne" as a Sumerian word at all, So in the view of Sumerologists this river has remained without any specific root up to now, but it has a meaning in Aryan language. "Tigre" in Aryan language [or language of Aryans] means "swift". [Persian] words "Tigh" and "Tiz" are also from the same root. Also in English language, "Tiger" with the meaning of a fast animal or tiger is from the same root.
Source: here, Also you can read other books of Jahanshah Derakhshani, whcih are having vast amount of material regarding the roots of Aryan civilization in Middle east and West Asia.
But the important thing is that the sentence in article says "WHICH TENDS TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH ARVAND", It is clear that it is not saying absolutely Avestan Arang, refers to Tigris, but it says it tends to be identified with. -- Wayiran ( talk) 15:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I just did a web search for "presitful". Every hit seems to be copied from this article, except a reference to "vice presitful". Clearly some word was mangled, but I find nothing like it in the referenced article ( Danube River). Can someone guess what word(s) were meant? Randall Bart Talk 20:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
arvand rud is the real name of this river.this is an old name. shat al-arab is a false name and all know this. please change the subject of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.132.209.113 ( talk) 16:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Shat all Arabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:410A:D400:F1C7:FBA2:7C6F:1F05 ( talk) 19:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Shatt al-Arab. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:06, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
When and how did this form? Sarsath3 ( talk) 00:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)