![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Should it be "Ahmed" instead of "Sheikh Sharif"? If you have an opinion, comment at
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Africa#Sharif_Sheikh_Ahmed.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk)
09:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Good question
Gråbergs Gråa Sång. Ahmed is a patronymic name, so in this case his given name should be used. 'Sheikh' is an inherited honorific title and it should also be used with the given name as has been done throughout the article.
Please see
MOS:HON +
MOS:GIVENNAME
Amirah
talk
13:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
These are two separate issues. The first issue about using Sheikh, you are right, it should be used only with the first occurrence of the name. The second issue about using the name Ahmed, the Wikipedia policy is described in
MOS:GIVENNAME for patronymic names. Patronymic names use the person's given name followed by their father's given name. There is no surname. Dropping someone's given name and calling them by their father's given name is not correct, even if the BBC do it, even if Al Jazeera do it, and why should we follow BBC or Al Jazeera policy rather than Wikipedia's own policy? I agree you can drop the honorific 'Sheikh' after the first occurance, but I disagree with your second idea about using the name Ahmed instead of Sharif. It is simply not correct to do so, and there is no reason why using his own given name should be any more 'fan-ish' than using his father's given name, their name simply identifies which person you are referring to.
Amirah
talk
16:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
No, he hasn't done it and in my opinion should not be forced to do it because some foreign media do it. This is a BLP and it is for him to make the decision if he wants to change the way he is addressed to follow a convention which is foreign to him, not for the media to decide that for him. Besides not all media do it, you are only mentioning the one's which do.
Amirah
talk
17:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Not everyone who edits this website is foreign to the subject of the BLP, some of them are Somali.
Please also note that the President who preceded him was called Ahmed and also referred to as Ahmed throughout his Wikipedia biography page, so if you insist on using Western naming conventions you would be creating ambiguity and confusion here. There are other Wikipedia pages in which both of them are mentioned on the same page too, which makes it even more confusing to readers which of them you would be refering to if you decide to name both of them Ahmed.
Amirah
talk
17:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
There's been a recent disagreement about the leadimage. Opinions? IMO they're both ok, I slightly prefer the 2012 one. If there's a newer one available, I'd be interested to see it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 13:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I too, prefer the 2012 photo and agree that it would be better to have a newer one, ideally from the current (2020-2021) election campaign.
Amirah
talk
14:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I totally agree with Alexis Jazz on this. Amirah talk 15:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Abdallem You are welcome to add your opinion here on the article talk page, which image your prefer and why.
Amirah
talk
20:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Now I'd say the 2020 image is the current winner, but it could use a good cropping. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 12:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't think any of the alternatives are suitable, that's is why it would help if his political office were made aware of the process for uploading images onto Wikimedia Commons, so that we can use them; but dare I say it, for the risk of being accused of conflict of interest. The current 2012 (Visits Balad town) photo is the most suitable one we have at the moment Alexis Jazz, and you were right to have chosen it. Amirah talk 14:25, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexis Jazz I think the inauguration ceremony picture was taken at a time when he had put some weight on. If you look at pictures before or after this period in time his face looks less round. That is not to say it is not a good picture, but the Ballad Town one looks closer to what he looks like today, if you look at more recent pictures of him which are online. Amirah talk 16:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC) Amirah talk 16:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if Abdallem is having difficulty finding this conversation. I think a cropped version of the picture would do at least until something more suitable becomes available and it would keep them happy too (he refers to himself as 'we' so perhaps there is more than one person behind that username). But the cropped version does look a little hazy, partly because of the shadow behind him. It is necessary to go quite so close up? Amirah talk 18:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
But the cropped version does look a little hazy, partly because of the shadow behind him. It is necessary to go quite so close up?I made it a bit wider and removed the shadow, not sure it makes that much of a difference though. — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 19:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexis Jazz Yes, it does look better now you've done that. Amirah talk 20:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
That picture from 2012 is hideous and looks unprofessional, there is no other way to put it, it's not a fair REPRESENTATION of the former president.
We have posted a different picture from Wikimedia, why was it changed again, if you wanted to zoom in or even go with a different more professional picture by all means, we once again ask the wiki community members to be more professional and courteous, kindly stop re-uploading that hideous, unflattering and unprofessional picture.
Just to prove there are better pictures even within Wikimedia, we'll upload a different image. Abdallem ( talk) 19:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Photo #1 possibly as a temporary measure until a better one comes up, but he is looking toward the righthand side of the page, I thought you said that is not ideal Amirah talk 22:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
@ AmirahBreen, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Cullen328, Mirer, and Buckshot06: I don't think we'll be able to unanimously agree that any of these is the best, so please show your preference here. (edit: in your subsection, if you want to vote but don't have a subsection yet, add one) — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 21:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
I prefer image #5 Amirah talk 21:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexis Jazz Your comment that he is looking down in the photo from Chatam House, that is culturally acceptable in many countries where the majority of people are Muslim. It is seen as a sign of modesty and respect. Many Muslims have chosen profile photos of themselves looking downwards on social media websites. You can see this body language with Sharif particular on photos and videos from the press conference with Hilary Clinton, at the points where she shakes his hand and when she pins the US flag beside the Somali flag on his lapel he is looking downwards.
Many photos were taken at these moments because it marked an important moment in history. People from other cultures may interpret it differently when they see a photo of someone looking downwards. They may think that the person looks shy and nervous for example. In the discussion on this page about naming conventions an editor suggested 'this is a foreign website', implying that therefore we should use 'foreign' naming conventions. My personal take on this is that we have a moral responsibility to consider how Wikipedia BLP's influence the world on a global level.
The influence of this profile is strongest in Somalia, so we should consider how the choice of photo will be seen by Somalia people. Head's of State of any country are also important on a global level concerning internal diplomatic relations. So, it is important how non-Somalis will interpret our choice of photo, but that is secondary. This is why I have gone with photos which Abdallem as my first and second choice. As far as I am aware, none of us are Somali and we cannot see the photos from their point of view. He has been banned from editing the page for a week. I think it would be beneficial to also ask his opinion on the choice before actually changing the photo.
Prefer AlexisJazz's pictures 1 and 2 in that order. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. Most important to me (and in most cases on "de") is that the face is almost in complete view, so that you're able to recognize people, if you see them again.
Here in the mini-pictures #3 looks much better than #2 but in a normal size (as in our articles) I prefer #2 over #3. --
mirer (
talk)
23:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
AmirahBreen, per your words here [9], it seems that you have a WP:Conflict of interest concerning this article, is that correct? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 19:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia guidelines, this discussion should not have appeared on the article talk page, it should have appeared on the user talk page, and I suggest that it be archived. Amirah talk 10:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
In response to some concerns about WP:COI, I posted the following comments on a user talk page.
I moved "Father of Modern Somalia" from the first sentence to farther down in the lead and unbolded it ( diff). (Note that even Gandhi and George Washington don't have "Father of the Nation" in the first sentence) However, I'm not sure it should be in the lead at all. The sources for the claim are:
the online sister publication of Radio Garowe, a community radio station based in Garowe, the State capital of Puntland, a self-governing region in northern Somalia( [11]).
This is a very strong claim to put in Wikipedia's voice, and I'd like to see better sourcing. Neither the BBC nor The New York Times uses this name for Ahmed.
Pinging editors who have recently been involved with the article for input: @ AmirahBreen, @ Buckshot06, @ Gråbergs Gråa Sång, @ Abdallem, @ Alexis Jazz
-- Rublov ( talk) 16:46, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Sharif brought the Somali government through the transitional phase establishing a full-fledged government with international recognition. The sources are valid reliable sources. I don't think this can be compared with Ghandi or George Washington as 'Modern Somalia' is not India or U.S.A. Also, 'Father of the Nation' are not the words used. The word 'nation' does not always imply only those living in shared territory such as a 'country', and the word 'modern' is also included in the title, which implies since the government moved out of the transitional phase. To say that this title is synonymous with 'Father of the nation' would be an exaggeration as the Somali nation existed long before the current internationally recognised government. Amirah talk 17:22, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
I note that the refs given contradict each other: "Sharif is known as "Father of Modern Somalia" because of his achievements when he served as president "/"Before ascending to the presidency, Sharif considered by many people as the ‘Father of Modern Somalia’". Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Here is another ref [12] which I think support "Not WP:LEAD-stuff." Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:11, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
@ AmirahBreen: your latest still violates WP:NPOV. It is not normal for the first sentence of an article about a politician to highlight their achievements. Look at Franklin D. Roosevelt or Winston Churchill or Barack Obama. Each uses the same basic format, which this article also used until you changed it. I ask that you self-revert until you have consensus for your change. Rublov ( talk) 19:28, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Contents moved from lede to section on 2009-2019 presidential term, which describes a brief summary of his presidential term at the start of the section. Amirah talk 09:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
@ AmirahBreen, why did you remove this image? It's a good one and fits the section well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 11:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello guys,
We've been through this before, I would like to know why the picture of the former president has been changed again, I thought we came to understanding. As the only somali person monitoring this page do any of you care to explain to me why such an ugly unprofessional picture is once again being used to represent our former president during this critical time, whilst there is an election taking place in the country.
From our previous discussions, I was led to believe we came to an understanding. Abdallem ( talk) 09:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
who I think is somewhat of a fan of the subjectOr a fan of money? — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 09:06, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Should it be "Ahmed" instead of "Sheikh Sharif"? If you have an opinion, comment at
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Africa#Sharif_Sheikh_Ahmed.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk)
09:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Good question
Gråbergs Gråa Sång. Ahmed is a patronymic name, so in this case his given name should be used. 'Sheikh' is an inherited honorific title and it should also be used with the given name as has been done throughout the article.
Please see
MOS:HON +
MOS:GIVENNAME
Amirah
talk
13:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
These are two separate issues. The first issue about using Sheikh, you are right, it should be used only with the first occurrence of the name. The second issue about using the name Ahmed, the Wikipedia policy is described in
MOS:GIVENNAME for patronymic names. Patronymic names use the person's given name followed by their father's given name. There is no surname. Dropping someone's given name and calling them by their father's given name is not correct, even if the BBC do it, even if Al Jazeera do it, and why should we follow BBC or Al Jazeera policy rather than Wikipedia's own policy? I agree you can drop the honorific 'Sheikh' after the first occurance, but I disagree with your second idea about using the name Ahmed instead of Sharif. It is simply not correct to do so, and there is no reason why using his own given name should be any more 'fan-ish' than using his father's given name, their name simply identifies which person you are referring to.
Amirah
talk
16:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
No, he hasn't done it and in my opinion should not be forced to do it because some foreign media do it. This is a BLP and it is for him to make the decision if he wants to change the way he is addressed to follow a convention which is foreign to him, not for the media to decide that for him. Besides not all media do it, you are only mentioning the one's which do.
Amirah
talk
17:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Not everyone who edits this website is foreign to the subject of the BLP, some of them are Somali.
Please also note that the President who preceded him was called Ahmed and also referred to as Ahmed throughout his Wikipedia biography page, so if you insist on using Western naming conventions you would be creating ambiguity and confusion here. There are other Wikipedia pages in which both of them are mentioned on the same page too, which makes it even more confusing to readers which of them you would be refering to if you decide to name both of them Ahmed.
Amirah
talk
17:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
There's been a recent disagreement about the leadimage. Opinions? IMO they're both ok, I slightly prefer the 2012 one. If there's a newer one available, I'd be interested to see it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 13:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I too, prefer the 2012 photo and agree that it would be better to have a newer one, ideally from the current (2020-2021) election campaign.
Amirah
talk
14:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I totally agree with Alexis Jazz on this. Amirah talk 15:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Abdallem You are welcome to add your opinion here on the article talk page, which image your prefer and why.
Amirah
talk
20:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Now I'd say the 2020 image is the current winner, but it could use a good cropping. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 12:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't think any of the alternatives are suitable, that's is why it would help if his political office were made aware of the process for uploading images onto Wikimedia Commons, so that we can use them; but dare I say it, for the risk of being accused of conflict of interest. The current 2012 (Visits Balad town) photo is the most suitable one we have at the moment Alexis Jazz, and you were right to have chosen it. Amirah talk 14:25, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexis Jazz I think the inauguration ceremony picture was taken at a time when he had put some weight on. If you look at pictures before or after this period in time his face looks less round. That is not to say it is not a good picture, but the Ballad Town one looks closer to what he looks like today, if you look at more recent pictures of him which are online. Amirah talk 16:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC) Amirah talk 16:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if Abdallem is having difficulty finding this conversation. I think a cropped version of the picture would do at least until something more suitable becomes available and it would keep them happy too (he refers to himself as 'we' so perhaps there is more than one person behind that username). But the cropped version does look a little hazy, partly because of the shadow behind him. It is necessary to go quite so close up? Amirah talk 18:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
But the cropped version does look a little hazy, partly because of the shadow behind him. It is necessary to go quite so close up?I made it a bit wider and removed the shadow, not sure it makes that much of a difference though. — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 19:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexis Jazz Yes, it does look better now you've done that. Amirah talk 20:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
That picture from 2012 is hideous and looks unprofessional, there is no other way to put it, it's not a fair REPRESENTATION of the former president.
We have posted a different picture from Wikimedia, why was it changed again, if you wanted to zoom in or even go with a different more professional picture by all means, we once again ask the wiki community members to be more professional and courteous, kindly stop re-uploading that hideous, unflattering and unprofessional picture.
Just to prove there are better pictures even within Wikimedia, we'll upload a different image. Abdallem ( talk) 19:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Photo #1 possibly as a temporary measure until a better one comes up, but he is looking toward the righthand side of the page, I thought you said that is not ideal Amirah talk 22:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
@ AmirahBreen, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Cullen328, Mirer, and Buckshot06: I don't think we'll be able to unanimously agree that any of these is the best, so please show your preference here. (edit: in your subsection, if you want to vote but don't have a subsection yet, add one) — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 21:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
I prefer image #5 Amirah talk 21:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexis Jazz Your comment that he is looking down in the photo from Chatam House, that is culturally acceptable in many countries where the majority of people are Muslim. It is seen as a sign of modesty and respect. Many Muslims have chosen profile photos of themselves looking downwards on social media websites. You can see this body language with Sharif particular on photos and videos from the press conference with Hilary Clinton, at the points where she shakes his hand and when she pins the US flag beside the Somali flag on his lapel he is looking downwards.
Many photos were taken at these moments because it marked an important moment in history. People from other cultures may interpret it differently when they see a photo of someone looking downwards. They may think that the person looks shy and nervous for example. In the discussion on this page about naming conventions an editor suggested 'this is a foreign website', implying that therefore we should use 'foreign' naming conventions. My personal take on this is that we have a moral responsibility to consider how Wikipedia BLP's influence the world on a global level.
The influence of this profile is strongest in Somalia, so we should consider how the choice of photo will be seen by Somalia people. Head's of State of any country are also important on a global level concerning internal diplomatic relations. So, it is important how non-Somalis will interpret our choice of photo, but that is secondary. This is why I have gone with photos which Abdallem as my first and second choice. As far as I am aware, none of us are Somali and we cannot see the photos from their point of view. He has been banned from editing the page for a week. I think it would be beneficial to also ask his opinion on the choice before actually changing the photo.
Prefer AlexisJazz's pictures 1 and 2 in that order. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. Most important to me (and in most cases on "de") is that the face is almost in complete view, so that you're able to recognize people, if you see them again.
Here in the mini-pictures #3 looks much better than #2 but in a normal size (as in our articles) I prefer #2 over #3. --
mirer (
talk)
23:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
AmirahBreen, per your words here [9], it seems that you have a WP:Conflict of interest concerning this article, is that correct? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 19:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia guidelines, this discussion should not have appeared on the article talk page, it should have appeared on the user talk page, and I suggest that it be archived. Amirah talk 10:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
In response to some concerns about WP:COI, I posted the following comments on a user talk page.
I moved "Father of Modern Somalia" from the first sentence to farther down in the lead and unbolded it ( diff). (Note that even Gandhi and George Washington don't have "Father of the Nation" in the first sentence) However, I'm not sure it should be in the lead at all. The sources for the claim are:
the online sister publication of Radio Garowe, a community radio station based in Garowe, the State capital of Puntland, a self-governing region in northern Somalia( [11]).
This is a very strong claim to put in Wikipedia's voice, and I'd like to see better sourcing. Neither the BBC nor The New York Times uses this name for Ahmed.
Pinging editors who have recently been involved with the article for input: @ AmirahBreen, @ Buckshot06, @ Gråbergs Gråa Sång, @ Abdallem, @ Alexis Jazz
-- Rublov ( talk) 16:46, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Sharif brought the Somali government through the transitional phase establishing a full-fledged government with international recognition. The sources are valid reliable sources. I don't think this can be compared with Ghandi or George Washington as 'Modern Somalia' is not India or U.S.A. Also, 'Father of the Nation' are not the words used. The word 'nation' does not always imply only those living in shared territory such as a 'country', and the word 'modern' is also included in the title, which implies since the government moved out of the transitional phase. To say that this title is synonymous with 'Father of the nation' would be an exaggeration as the Somali nation existed long before the current internationally recognised government. Amirah talk 17:22, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
I note that the refs given contradict each other: "Sharif is known as "Father of Modern Somalia" because of his achievements when he served as president "/"Before ascending to the presidency, Sharif considered by many people as the ‘Father of Modern Somalia’". Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Here is another ref [12] which I think support "Not WP:LEAD-stuff." Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:11, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
@ AmirahBreen: your latest still violates WP:NPOV. It is not normal for the first sentence of an article about a politician to highlight their achievements. Look at Franklin D. Roosevelt or Winston Churchill or Barack Obama. Each uses the same basic format, which this article also used until you changed it. I ask that you self-revert until you have consensus for your change. Rublov ( talk) 19:28, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Contents moved from lede to section on 2009-2019 presidential term, which describes a brief summary of his presidential term at the start of the section. Amirah talk 09:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
@ AmirahBreen, why did you remove this image? It's a good one and fits the section well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 11:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello guys,
We've been through this before, I would like to know why the picture of the former president has been changed again, I thought we came to understanding. As the only somali person monitoring this page do any of you care to explain to me why such an ugly unprofessional picture is once again being used to represent our former president during this critical time, whilst there is an election taking place in the country.
From our previous discussions, I was led to believe we came to an understanding. Abdallem ( talk) 09:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
who I think is somewhat of a fan of the subjectOr a fan of money? — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 09:06, 1 January 2022 (UTC)