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The club's emblem is a generic clover or alfalfa (Tριφύλλι) rather than a shamrock, so I'm removing mention of the club from this article.
--
Yumegusa (
talk)
20:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The emblem of Panathinaikos is clearly a shamrock and it has an Irish origin. You can check the articles of Panathinaikos, there is now a reference to it. -- Picker78 ( talk) 23:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
This article is about a plant. But to read the article, it looks like it is solely concerned with being an Irish symbol. The association of the shamrock with Ireland should either be moved to it's own separate article (e.g. see Rose (symbolism)) or it should be moved to its own section (e.g. see Maple). -- HighKing ( talk) 00:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor changed the intro text to make it inaccurate. I reverted, but then another anonymous editor started edit-warring, so I can't revert it back to the accurate version. The current text inaccurately states that the shamrock is "a symbol and a registered trademark of Ireland|Republic of Ireland". This is wrong because it is a symbol of the whole island: not just the Republic. The previous text, which has been changed, was accurate and read: "a symbol of Ireland and a registered trademark of the Republic of Ireland". Could someone sort this? Mooretwin ( talk) 11:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
An edit-war has broken out between an Anonymous editor who has edited the text so as to state that the shamrock is a symbol and registered trade mark of the Republic of Ireland state; and me, who wishes to retain the original text which stated that the shamrock is a symbol of Ireland (i.e. the whole island) and a registered trade mark of the Republic.
(outdent)I'll repeat what I said above. This article is about a plant. It's a shamrock. Unfortunately it appears that this article has been completely overtaken to solely concern itself with symbolism associated with Ireland, and the introduction in the lead sentence of the fact that the shamrock is a trademarked symbol of the Irish government complete skews a political angle onto the article. The association of the shamrock with Ireland should either be moved to it's own separate article (e.g. see Rose (symbolism)) or it should be moved to its own section (e.g. see Maple). -- HighKing ( talk) 15:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Since we agree on creating a new article Shamrock (symbolism), can we agree to that? Or are you suggesting that we have stasis until the Task Force reports?
Mooretwin (
talk)
16:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for everyone's comments. I'm going to act on High King's suggestion now. Mooretwin ( talk) 09:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm angry that
User:Snappy, without bothering to take part in discussion, has just come along and reverted the edit resulting from the above. This is not acceptable. It is also disappointing that another person
User:Yman88 has come along in support of the edit by Snappy. It is extremely frustrating for those of us attempting to improve the article when editors such as these come along and simply revert to previous inaccurate and disputed versions.
Mooretwin (
talk)
14:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, given the recent unhelpful interventions, I will now propose the following text which makes clear (a) that the shamrock is a symbol of all of Ireland; (b) the origins of why it is a symbol of Ireland; (c) that the trademark thing applies only to the Republic; and (d) the shamrock is used by the NI Tourist Board:
Since it would seem that the consensus was that "shamrock" identifies the plant, but no article for that meaning exists, I changed the redirect for shamrock to clover, which addresses the plant. Perhaps ideally a specific article on the plant would be created? ENeville ( talk) 17:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I have a few comments: 1) Why do these two contradictory sentences exist within the same article? A) "Perhaps because they are rare, 4-leaved Shamrocks are said to bring good luck." B) "The four-leaf clover is often confused with the shamrock. While the four-leaf clover is a symbol of good luck, the three-leafed shamrock is mainly an Irish Christian symbol of the Holy Trinity and has a different significance." Besides the logical confusion created, I must ask why the phrases "4-leaved," "four leaf," and "three-leafed" are all used. I would think usage and spelling should be standardized.
2) I would recommend clarification and some moving of sections.
First: Is there such a thing as a four-leaf shamrock, or does a shamrock exclusively refer to the three-leaf version? The fact that shamrock comes from an anglicization of the Irish word for "clover," which can have three or more leaves, seems to indicate that a shamrock need not have only three leaves.
Second: It seems more logical to me to place the section on Irish Christian symbolism right after the sentence "The posthumous timing of this legend (coming some 1200 years after his death), and the lack of supporting evidence found in St. Patrick's writings have caused some to question its authenticity[2]." Perhaps it could say, "Despite the debate, the three-leafed shamrock now serves as an Irish Christian symbol of the Holy Trinity." Since the removal of that portion makes the section "The four-leaf clover" too short, perhaps the mention of it in the introduction could link to the four-leaf clover article instead. If a four-leaf clover is in fact not a shamrock, the sentence in the introduction could be amended to say that a four-leaf clover is considered lucky but is not considered a proper shamrock. -- Sirubberduckie ( talk) 18:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
References
The Shamrock is certainly a symbol of Ireland (state) and of all Irish nationalists, including those in NI. Does it represent Unionists in NI? They should tell us; I don't know. I suspect it does. Does it not pre-date the political splits and is a symbol of Irish Christianity originally, inherited by both Catholics and Protestants after the Reformation? Sarah777 ( talk) 11:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 17:07, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
This was moved from "Shamrock" with explanation "as per Talk". I presume it's HighKing's assertion "This article is about a plant. But to read the article, it looks like it is solely concerned with being an Irish symbol." To my mind, the second sentence proves the first sentence is incorrect. We already have an article about the plant, i.e. clover. This article is not about the plant. What links to "Shamrock" is a bunch of articles about the shamrock as a symbol of Ireland. Nothing to do with clover. I've redirected Shamrock back here, and the pointless disambiguation needs to be reversed. jnestorius( talk) 10:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've removed some of the trivia from the article, namely the various boats that are named "Shamrock" -- this is an article about the emblem, not the use of the word. They have been moved to the disambiguation page. I expect much of the trivia that remains will stay in the article, due to the nature of the subject -- there are many uses of the shamrock around the world that could be considered notable.
Also tidied the text somewhat, and moved any random organisations using the emblem into the "other contexts" section. It makes better sense here for the "Badge of Ireland" section only to include government organisations and sports teams with Irish connections. Feel free to rename the "other" section if there's a preferred heading for it. Fattonyni ( talk) 12:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
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The club's emblem is a generic clover or alfalfa (Tριφύλλι) rather than a shamrock, so I'm removing mention of the club from this article.
--
Yumegusa (
talk)
20:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The emblem of Panathinaikos is clearly a shamrock and it has an Irish origin. You can check the articles of Panathinaikos, there is now a reference to it. -- Picker78 ( talk) 23:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
This article is about a plant. But to read the article, it looks like it is solely concerned with being an Irish symbol. The association of the shamrock with Ireland should either be moved to it's own separate article (e.g. see Rose (symbolism)) or it should be moved to its own section (e.g. see Maple). -- HighKing ( talk) 00:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor changed the intro text to make it inaccurate. I reverted, but then another anonymous editor started edit-warring, so I can't revert it back to the accurate version. The current text inaccurately states that the shamrock is "a symbol and a registered trademark of Ireland|Republic of Ireland". This is wrong because it is a symbol of the whole island: not just the Republic. The previous text, which has been changed, was accurate and read: "a symbol of Ireland and a registered trademark of the Republic of Ireland". Could someone sort this? Mooretwin ( talk) 11:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
An edit-war has broken out between an Anonymous editor who has edited the text so as to state that the shamrock is a symbol and registered trade mark of the Republic of Ireland state; and me, who wishes to retain the original text which stated that the shamrock is a symbol of Ireland (i.e. the whole island) and a registered trade mark of the Republic.
(outdent)I'll repeat what I said above. This article is about a plant. It's a shamrock. Unfortunately it appears that this article has been completely overtaken to solely concern itself with symbolism associated with Ireland, and the introduction in the lead sentence of the fact that the shamrock is a trademarked symbol of the Irish government complete skews a political angle onto the article. The association of the shamrock with Ireland should either be moved to it's own separate article (e.g. see Rose (symbolism)) or it should be moved to its own section (e.g. see Maple). -- HighKing ( talk) 15:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Since we agree on creating a new article Shamrock (symbolism), can we agree to that? Or are you suggesting that we have stasis until the Task Force reports?
Mooretwin (
talk)
16:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for everyone's comments. I'm going to act on High King's suggestion now. Mooretwin ( talk) 09:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm angry that
User:Snappy, without bothering to take part in discussion, has just come along and reverted the edit resulting from the above. This is not acceptable. It is also disappointing that another person
User:Yman88 has come along in support of the edit by Snappy. It is extremely frustrating for those of us attempting to improve the article when editors such as these come along and simply revert to previous inaccurate and disputed versions.
Mooretwin (
talk)
14:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, given the recent unhelpful interventions, I will now propose the following text which makes clear (a) that the shamrock is a symbol of all of Ireland; (b) the origins of why it is a symbol of Ireland; (c) that the trademark thing applies only to the Republic; and (d) the shamrock is used by the NI Tourist Board:
Since it would seem that the consensus was that "shamrock" identifies the plant, but no article for that meaning exists, I changed the redirect for shamrock to clover, which addresses the plant. Perhaps ideally a specific article on the plant would be created? ENeville ( talk) 17:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I have a few comments: 1) Why do these two contradictory sentences exist within the same article? A) "Perhaps because they are rare, 4-leaved Shamrocks are said to bring good luck." B) "The four-leaf clover is often confused with the shamrock. While the four-leaf clover is a symbol of good luck, the three-leafed shamrock is mainly an Irish Christian symbol of the Holy Trinity and has a different significance." Besides the logical confusion created, I must ask why the phrases "4-leaved," "four leaf," and "three-leafed" are all used. I would think usage and spelling should be standardized.
2) I would recommend clarification and some moving of sections.
First: Is there such a thing as a four-leaf shamrock, or does a shamrock exclusively refer to the three-leaf version? The fact that shamrock comes from an anglicization of the Irish word for "clover," which can have three or more leaves, seems to indicate that a shamrock need not have only three leaves.
Second: It seems more logical to me to place the section on Irish Christian symbolism right after the sentence "The posthumous timing of this legend (coming some 1200 years after his death), and the lack of supporting evidence found in St. Patrick's writings have caused some to question its authenticity[2]." Perhaps it could say, "Despite the debate, the three-leafed shamrock now serves as an Irish Christian symbol of the Holy Trinity." Since the removal of that portion makes the section "The four-leaf clover" too short, perhaps the mention of it in the introduction could link to the four-leaf clover article instead. If a four-leaf clover is in fact not a shamrock, the sentence in the introduction could be amended to say that a four-leaf clover is considered lucky but is not considered a proper shamrock. -- Sirubberduckie ( talk) 18:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
References
The Shamrock is certainly a symbol of Ireland (state) and of all Irish nationalists, including those in NI. Does it represent Unionists in NI? They should tell us; I don't know. I suspect it does. Does it not pre-date the political splits and is a symbol of Irish Christianity originally, inherited by both Catholics and Protestants after the Reformation? Sarah777 ( talk) 11:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 17:07, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
This was moved from "Shamrock" with explanation "as per Talk". I presume it's HighKing's assertion "This article is about a plant. But to read the article, it looks like it is solely concerned with being an Irish symbol." To my mind, the second sentence proves the first sentence is incorrect. We already have an article about the plant, i.e. clover. This article is not about the plant. What links to "Shamrock" is a bunch of articles about the shamrock as a symbol of Ireland. Nothing to do with clover. I've redirected Shamrock back here, and the pointless disambiguation needs to be reversed. jnestorius( talk) 10:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've removed some of the trivia from the article, namely the various boats that are named "Shamrock" -- this is an article about the emblem, not the use of the word. They have been moved to the disambiguation page. I expect much of the trivia that remains will stay in the article, due to the nature of the subject -- there are many uses of the shamrock around the world that could be considered notable.
Also tidied the text somewhat, and moved any random organisations using the emblem into the "other contexts" section. It makes better sense here for the "Badge of Ireland" section only to include government organisations and sports teams with Irish connections. Feel free to rename the "other" section if there's a preferred heading for it. Fattonyni ( talk) 12:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Shamrock. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
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nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:27, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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