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This article needs a lot more material on the history of the term in English and the concept, and also on the anthropological material (eg the Mediterranean work of Campbell and Pitt-Rivers); and probably rather less psychology. Diomedea Exulans ( talk) 07:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
As a psychologist I must agree with this criticism! The whole article is pervaded by the psychologising assumption that 'shame' is always the name of an emotion. But shame can be brought on someone (by themselves or by another) without them feeling anything in particular. Just as you can be guilty of a crime without feeling guilty, so too can you act in a shameful way without feeling shame. 84.68.113.194 ( talk) 20:38, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
First of all, good article! :) One improvement that can bring the meaning of the word shame as from another view is this: the "shame", according to Christianity, started in Eden, when Adam and Eve tried to "cover" (as you said in the beginning of the article :) ) themselves. Also, in the Law of Moses (first 5 books of the Bible), the word "shame" is used a lot!... it almost looks like that almost all the Jewish law was based, mainly, on shame!... Also, nowadays you see that the youth is more and more encouraged to "get rid of shame", and become "shameless", while here pointing the difference you stated in the article between "shame", "embarrassment" and "guilt" might be very constructive, because it shows that "shame" can be constructive, while "embarrassment" is destructive, if we take Bernard's difference between "shame" and "embarrassment". So, a moral view would also be great, over the word "shame". Actually, i believe that shame has mainly to do with morals (personal morals).
With respect for great work, Andrew 17:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC+2)
I am revising this article for a class and am pretty new at this but I immediately thought of the religious aspect of shame when I picked the topic. I am glad others are thinking the same way. Shame is something that, according to the bible, stems from the fall of Adam and Eve so building off of that would be an excellent addition to this article. I think it would just give a good background as to where shame comes from and how much religious teaching has been, and still is, engrained in our culture. fl0wercallednowhere ( talk) 07:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
In this article, there is scarcely any information about the physiological phenomena associated with feeling guilt or being ashamed. The only useful description given by the article (and it is rather a terse one) has been taken from a Darwin's work. Has psychology/neurology really not moved any further since then?? Shame on it then :) 95.49.28.75 ( talk) 15:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Putting this here for later: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:A-UiPdbuJMYJ:sell.hil.no/nndr2005/symbol.doc 46.116.79.230 ( talk) 12:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
One of the common use of this word is Shame On You Shameful Dude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.44.158 ( talk) 08:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how to edit a reference list or otherwise I'd do it myself, but this reference is wrong:
Tangney, JP; Miller Flicker Barlow (1996), "Are shame, guilt, and embarrassment distinct emotions?", Journal of Personal Social Psychology 70: 1256, doi:10.1037/0022-3514.70.6.1256, PMID 8667166
Should be "Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 70(6)..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.124.4 ( talk) 16:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Too anglocentric, what about "vergüenza ajena", for example?-- 217.125.236.237 ( talk) 11:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
regarding "According to ... that gain approval of others"
A very well informed article.
However, the sentence: "According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values. Thus, it is possible to feel ashamed of thought or behavior that no one knows about and to feel guilty about actions that gain the approval of others." does not make much sense. If shame is a violation of cultural values, then it would be impossible to feel ashamed of an unknown thought, and likewise, if guilt is a violation of oneself, it could be possible, but awkwardly, to use it for others. Perhaps, the author meant to switch shame and guilt, so the sentence read:
"According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values. Thus, it is possible to feel ashamed about actions that gain the approval of others and to feel guilty of thought or behavior that no one knows about."
(I also switched the phrases in the second sentence, so the parellism remains the same.) Note that i don't have access to the reference, so I am unable to assist here. It's just worth a check!
72.66.56.2 ( talk) 02:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I have a slight problem with the text under the picture of a dog - "Dog Showing Shame". The dog may well be exhibiting behavior which among humans is considered 'shame' but whether dogs feel ashamed or not is highly questionable! I think the picture should be replaced by a picture of a human being showing shame rather than a dog. After all, even the text is about _human_ emotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.249.110.140 ( talk) 09:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
In German, shame often has to be translated with Schande, not Scham, which is linked here. But you can have only one interwikilink. Shame on Wikipedia? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13Peewit ( talk • contribs) 11:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Isnt anger a social emotion or mostly social? Happiness? Sadness? Shame is equally self-generated as other emotions. 153.160.152.100 ( talk) 23:12, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
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Shame. Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
The lead tells us it 'can be seen as resulting "...from..." ...may stem from... may also variously be considered...' and tells us the 'roots of the word'. It even explains that '"sense of shame" is the consciousness or awareness of shame'. But we are not told what shame is. Anyone able to help? I'm not an expert in psychology, philosophy, or sociology so I don't know what definition is intended — Iadmc ♫ talk 05:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I suspect that asking 'what shame is' may not be helpful. 'What is x?' questions always seem to elicit helpful answers when 'x' is a referential noun - one that refers to a thing of some sort - but in other situations they are themselves often opaque. It seems to me that 'shame', 'guilt', 'justice' etc don't really work well as completers for a 'what is...?' question. I propose that we get a better idea of what the word 'shame' means if we look at how it is properly used. We might ask, for example, what is essentially true of s/he who is shamed / ashamed / acts in a shameful way, etc. 84.68.113.194 ( talk) 20:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Shaming recently got a new edge. Internet shaming like the one ob janice sacco and johnah lehner are important new takes on shaming. Theking2 15:29, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
The first reference in the Definition section of the article is pointed at a domain squatting site. History has been deleted for the edits that added this change. I'm going to add the
template message to the section. I don't know what the correct action is otherwise. The relevant text is:
jamisnemo ( talk) 21:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
References
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 January 2022 and 18 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Whitmjb ( article contribs).
It is not advisable to use phrases such as “that would be your third type of shame”.
The section is also opinionated and inconsistent. 188.147.32.133 ( talk) 00:36, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
"Shame causes a lot of stress on people daily, but it also teaches people a lot of lessons. Without having shame people would never be able to learn a lesson and never be able to grow from their mistakes."
Where does this sort of nonsense come from? Making mistakes leads to learning, yes. But how does shame add value to the process? How can shame be thought to be a necessary prerequisite of learning? I've come across a lot, repeat a LOT of nonsense on Wikipedia, but this is easily the most innately obscene nonsense I've encountered. It makes me doubt the value of the project, frankly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.151.210.84 ( talk) 14:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
This article contains much good work... and yet suffers from some passages. Some sections appear to have been phrased a bit carelessly (esp. the Joseph Burgo section: what exactly does he claim, where does he claim it, etc.). Most importantly, "comparison with embarassment" is partly redundant, partly off-topic (when it comes to guilt, which belongs to the section above), and generally not well-structured. Thanks for reworking the section. -- Ibn Battuta ( talk) 21:50, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Overall this article has excellent structure and is not too far off the mark in my opinion. The article appears to lack clear definitions and distinctions between shame, guilt, and embarrassment, which can lead to confusion. Additionally, the subtypes of shame presented in the article are questionable and lack empirical support. Djward21 ( talk) 21:41, 20 May 2023 (UTC) Djward21 ( talk) 21:43, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shame article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
/Archive 1 |
This article needs a lot more material on the history of the term in English and the concept, and also on the anthropological material (eg the Mediterranean work of Campbell and Pitt-Rivers); and probably rather less psychology. Diomedea Exulans ( talk) 07:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
As a psychologist I must agree with this criticism! The whole article is pervaded by the psychologising assumption that 'shame' is always the name of an emotion. But shame can be brought on someone (by themselves or by another) without them feeling anything in particular. Just as you can be guilty of a crime without feeling guilty, so too can you act in a shameful way without feeling shame. 84.68.113.194 ( talk) 20:38, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
First of all, good article! :) One improvement that can bring the meaning of the word shame as from another view is this: the "shame", according to Christianity, started in Eden, when Adam and Eve tried to "cover" (as you said in the beginning of the article :) ) themselves. Also, in the Law of Moses (first 5 books of the Bible), the word "shame" is used a lot!... it almost looks like that almost all the Jewish law was based, mainly, on shame!... Also, nowadays you see that the youth is more and more encouraged to "get rid of shame", and become "shameless", while here pointing the difference you stated in the article between "shame", "embarrassment" and "guilt" might be very constructive, because it shows that "shame" can be constructive, while "embarrassment" is destructive, if we take Bernard's difference between "shame" and "embarrassment". So, a moral view would also be great, over the word "shame". Actually, i believe that shame has mainly to do with morals (personal morals).
With respect for great work, Andrew 17:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC+2)
I am revising this article for a class and am pretty new at this but I immediately thought of the religious aspect of shame when I picked the topic. I am glad others are thinking the same way. Shame is something that, according to the bible, stems from the fall of Adam and Eve so building off of that would be an excellent addition to this article. I think it would just give a good background as to where shame comes from and how much religious teaching has been, and still is, engrained in our culture. fl0wercallednowhere ( talk) 07:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
In this article, there is scarcely any information about the physiological phenomena associated with feeling guilt or being ashamed. The only useful description given by the article (and it is rather a terse one) has been taken from a Darwin's work. Has psychology/neurology really not moved any further since then?? Shame on it then :) 95.49.28.75 ( talk) 15:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Putting this here for later: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:A-UiPdbuJMYJ:sell.hil.no/nndr2005/symbol.doc 46.116.79.230 ( talk) 12:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
One of the common use of this word is Shame On You Shameful Dude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.44.158 ( talk) 08:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how to edit a reference list or otherwise I'd do it myself, but this reference is wrong:
Tangney, JP; Miller Flicker Barlow (1996), "Are shame, guilt, and embarrassment distinct emotions?", Journal of Personal Social Psychology 70: 1256, doi:10.1037/0022-3514.70.6.1256, PMID 8667166
Should be "Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 70(6)..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.124.4 ( talk) 16:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Too anglocentric, what about "vergüenza ajena", for example?-- 217.125.236.237 ( talk) 11:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
regarding "According to ... that gain approval of others"
A very well informed article.
However, the sentence: "According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values. Thus, it is possible to feel ashamed of thought or behavior that no one knows about and to feel guilty about actions that gain the approval of others." does not make much sense. If shame is a violation of cultural values, then it would be impossible to feel ashamed of an unknown thought, and likewise, if guilt is a violation of oneself, it could be possible, but awkwardly, to use it for others. Perhaps, the author meant to switch shame and guilt, so the sentence read:
"According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values. Thus, it is possible to feel ashamed about actions that gain the approval of others and to feel guilty of thought or behavior that no one knows about."
(I also switched the phrases in the second sentence, so the parellism remains the same.) Note that i don't have access to the reference, so I am unable to assist here. It's just worth a check!
72.66.56.2 ( talk) 02:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I have a slight problem with the text under the picture of a dog - "Dog Showing Shame". The dog may well be exhibiting behavior which among humans is considered 'shame' but whether dogs feel ashamed or not is highly questionable! I think the picture should be replaced by a picture of a human being showing shame rather than a dog. After all, even the text is about _human_ emotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.249.110.140 ( talk) 09:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
In German, shame often has to be translated with Schande, not Scham, which is linked here. But you can have only one interwikilink. Shame on Wikipedia? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13Peewit ( talk • contribs) 11:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Isnt anger a social emotion or mostly social? Happiness? Sadness? Shame is equally self-generated as other emotions. 153.160.152.100 ( talk) 23:12, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 5 external links on
Shame. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
The lead tells us it 'can be seen as resulting "...from..." ...may stem from... may also variously be considered...' and tells us the 'roots of the word'. It even explains that '"sense of shame" is the consciousness or awareness of shame'. But we are not told what shame is. Anyone able to help? I'm not an expert in psychology, philosophy, or sociology so I don't know what definition is intended — Iadmc ♫ talk 05:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I suspect that asking 'what shame is' may not be helpful. 'What is x?' questions always seem to elicit helpful answers when 'x' is a referential noun - one that refers to a thing of some sort - but in other situations they are themselves often opaque. It seems to me that 'shame', 'guilt', 'justice' etc don't really work well as completers for a 'what is...?' question. I propose that we get a better idea of what the word 'shame' means if we look at how it is properly used. We might ask, for example, what is essentially true of s/he who is shamed / ashamed / acts in a shameful way, etc. 84.68.113.194 ( talk) 20:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Shaming recently got a new edge. Internet shaming like the one ob janice sacco and johnah lehner are important new takes on shaming. Theking2 15:29, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
The first reference in the Definition section of the article is pointed at a domain squatting site. History has been deleted for the edits that added this change. I'm going to add the
template message to the section. I don't know what the correct action is otherwise. The relevant text is:
jamisnemo ( talk) 21:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
References
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 January 2022 and 18 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Whitmjb ( article contribs).
It is not advisable to use phrases such as “that would be your third type of shame”.
The section is also opinionated and inconsistent. 188.147.32.133 ( talk) 00:36, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
"Shame causes a lot of stress on people daily, but it also teaches people a lot of lessons. Without having shame people would never be able to learn a lesson and never be able to grow from their mistakes."
Where does this sort of nonsense come from? Making mistakes leads to learning, yes. But how does shame add value to the process? How can shame be thought to be a necessary prerequisite of learning? I've come across a lot, repeat a LOT of nonsense on Wikipedia, but this is easily the most innately obscene nonsense I've encountered. It makes me doubt the value of the project, frankly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.151.210.84 ( talk) 14:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
This article contains much good work... and yet suffers from some passages. Some sections appear to have been phrased a bit carelessly (esp. the Joseph Burgo section: what exactly does he claim, where does he claim it, etc.). Most importantly, "comparison with embarassment" is partly redundant, partly off-topic (when it comes to guilt, which belongs to the section above), and generally not well-structured. Thanks for reworking the section. -- Ibn Battuta ( talk) 21:50, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Overall this article has excellent structure and is not too far off the mark in my opinion. The article appears to lack clear definitions and distinctions between shame, guilt, and embarrassment, which can lead to confusion. Additionally, the subtypes of shame presented in the article are questionable and lack empirical support. Djward21 ( talk) 21:41, 20 May 2023 (UTC) Djward21 ( talk) 21:43, 20 May 2023 (UTC)