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I'm not sure whether this article and chakchouka should be merged, but they seem to describe the same dish. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The link to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs doesn't appear to work, so I removed the (inaccurate) Hebrew etymology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.92.14 ( talk) 01:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I removed "In Hebrew it means “all mixed up". Despite the article in the Jewish Chronical, the word shakshuka does not mean that in Hebrew. Check any dictionary. It might be used as a metaphor for something that is all mixed up, like salad in English, but salad does not mean "all mixed up" either. Certainly "all mixed up" is not the etymology -- the source or origin -- of either word, shakshuka or salad. Linguistatlunch ( talk) 11:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
It cant be a very old dish since tomatoes and peppers where only introduced to the these cuisines after their cultivation in Europe.-- 77.118.41.164 ( talk) 00:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
In Turkey "Şakşuka" is nothing like what is described here. This one resembles the "menemen". But the turkish şakşuka is more like the Ratatouille. 94.122.192.69 ( talk) 18:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
This section is confusing, probably because more than one person has contributed to it and, as is so often the case, there's been no check on consistency.
"Shakshouka is similar to the Turkish dish menemen, and the Mexican breakfast dish huevos rancheros but different in the fact that the egg yolks are kept whole instead of scrambled."
Well, for a start we could improve on that with this:
"Shakshouka is similar to the Turkish dish menemen, and to the Mexican breakfast dish huevos rancheros, but different in that the egg yolks are whole instead of scrambled."
But the information is wrong anyway. The eggs in huevos rancheros are not scrambled but fried. And therefore "whole". I would argue that shakshouka and huevos rancheros are pretty similar, and that it's the spices which make the difference. Although I admit that the eggs in shakshouka are more-or-less poached rather than fried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.236.90 ( talk) 19:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I have seen this create some confusion among people looking at this article, who don't understand the nuances of the process of aliyah and the creation of the modern israeli society. We should also clarify that it arrived in israel as part of the maghrebi jews migrating to Israel.
Unless I'm missing something here?-- Paolorausch ( talk) 22:28, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Topic has been beaten to death. Cultural appropriation issues notwithstanding, given that this dish is undeniably a staple food in current vegetarian form across North Africa, some evidence needs to be provided to support less likely claim that dish originated or was 'influenced' by Jewish North Africans who made up 2% of population at peak. Much more likely that Jews adopted local dish throughout various waves of migration to North Africa, then undeniably brought it with them to Israel in 20th Century where it has become popular. Irondome: a 1 sentence statement in Jewish cookbook claiming Jewish orginin is NOT reliable evidence. I am a new poster to Wikipedia, not a banned user as previously suggested, but you do not need to be a Wikipedia expert to understand that evidence is needed to substantiate an unlikely claim. Unless reliable evidence or some convincing argument can be provided, the claim should not be included in the article. Dish should be attributed broadly as North African without making additional unfounded claims as to origin from a small population within. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo.jones ( talk • contribs) 23:06, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello @ ZackTheCardshark: No one says otherwise but its an Arabic word, Hebrew is unrelated. So it doesn't mean you have to put its name because it is used in Israeli cuisine.-- Sarah Canbel ( talk) 18:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I have restored the organizational changes made by 161.10.59.76, but would like an explanation of what content needs to be adjusted for NPOV. I also don't understand why you removed content about shakshouka being served as an evening meal in Israel - I don't think it is found on evening menus in all countries, so isn't this quirk worth a brief mention? Seraphim System ( talk) 16:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Whatever happened to Palestine? Is it to be erased from memory? Not to be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popenda ( talk • contribs) 19:02, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
It seems that multiple users are editing back and fourth with one another over the origin of the dish, instead of bickering over and over how about we try to find a resolution instead Reinhearted ( talk) 02:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Macrakis: I removed the page needed tag because this is an e-book that does not have page numbers. Spudlace ( talk) 20:26, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Most sources agree that the egg dish (as opposed to the meat dishes of the same name) is Maghrebi. As far as I can tell, the claim that it is from Ottoman Turkey (as opposed to the Ottoman Maghreb) or from Yemen come from one newspaper article, which doesn't seem like a particularly solid source, as it doesn't give its own sources. I think we can "demote" those claims as non-mainstream. -- Macrakis ( talk) 16:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I noticed Israel wasn't mentioned in the lede at all, so I changed this to Israeli cuisine. Before doing this I searched for confirmation in reliable sources that this dish in its poached egg form is consumed anywhere outside Israel. I couldn't find any such confirmation (although similar dishes like Uovos in Purgatorio are given brief mention). To the contrary, it may be that shakshouka refers mostly to non-egg dishes outside Israel? Then I saw this recently published article:
Shakshuka, which is consumed daily in Tunisia, is referred to by all as ‘Israeli’, while the cultural identity of the Tunisian community in which it was invented is erased.
If this is true it would be nice to have other sources confirming it so we can change the lede back because it definitely wasn't my intention to erase any cultural identities. If no other sources can be found I am going to remove some of this. Spudlace ( talk) 01:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I think it is probably a little inappropriate to define it in those terms, as the dish is widely consumed across the Middle East. I still need to find a good source for this, but it appears to be pretty common knowledge People eat it all over North Africa, Egypt and the Levant, as one would expect of a dish initially conceived in the 16th century. I'm also not 100% sure if the Tunisian specific angle is totally accurate either. Harissa is very Tunisian, but the dish can also be less or even not spicy. It's possible that the dish with harissa is just a Tunisian variant. There is obviously the Algerian chakchouka and I've seen claims of a Moroccan shakshouka too. Here, a Yemeni connection is even posited. By and large, I think reductionist labelling with regards to this dish is likely to be overly simplistic. Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:04, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Is this some kind of joke? How on earth can a dish that is closely associated with the Maghreb and attested there (Algeria and Tunisia) in sources [1] [2] that predate the creation of Israel be described as Israeli? I have restored the stable version that mentions the region it's associated with. M.Bitton ( talk) 12:54, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
References
This was added recently and reverted multiple times until an administrator protected the page. No discussion was started on the talk page but the edit warring has stopped for now. Is there any reason we shouldn't add Middle Eastern to the first sentence while keeping Maghrebi. It's been discussed previously and rejected to change it to Israeli or Jewish. Would the addition of Middle Eastern be an improvement? It has become part of the local cuisine of the Middle Eastern countries. It is just as much Middle Eastern as Maghrebi and often described that way by reliable sources. Spudlace ( talk) 18:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
This isn’t indicated in the cited article, which I read. This is a big claim. I am from New York and know people all over America. I inquired just now of many of them and none of us have ever heard of this dish. Is “globally popularized” really accurate? Alexandermoir ( talk) 19:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Duponiuex, this edit was undone because it reinstated claims that are categorically false. The Jews that are historically associated with Shakshouka are not Sephardic Jews but specifically Maghrebi Jews, because it is a Maghrebi dish. And since it has been a Maghrebi dish for centuries, was only brought to Israel in the second half of the 20th century, and is now presented as Israeli cuisine, then it has been appropriated. If you have WP:reliable sources that somehow prove otherwise, you can seek consensus for changes here on the talk page. إيان ( talk) 04:15, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Duponiuex: The opinion of a chef does not refute scholarly consensus as evidenced in the multiple WP:reliable academic journals that your edit removed. The chef's opinion will not be given WP:Undue coverage on this page. What you contribute on Wikipedia needs to be supported by WP:reliable sources. إيان ( talk) 12:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
In Jewish culture, a large batch of tomato stew is made for the Sabbath dinner and the leftovers used the following morning to make a breakfast shakshouka with eggs.
No, no and no.
There is no tomato stew in Jewish culture, annd shakshouka cannot be cooked on Shabbat morning. (only reheated) I have no access to the source.
Eliedaat ( talk) 06:35, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
The statement "Shakshouka is a Maghribi dish" may be misleading. While it is true that chakchouka is popular across the Maghreb region, including countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, it is primarily associated with Moroccan cuisine. Therefore, I suggest revising the statement to clarify that while chakchouka is enjoyed in various Maghreb countries, it originated in Morocco and subsequently spread to other North African and Middle Eastern countries. This part of the article: "Shakshouka is a Maghribi dish" used to be: "Shakshouka is a Moroccan dish" on this exact Wikipedia article.
It is misleading because the word Maghribi in arabic = Moroccan. However the change made here not to use the Arab word for Morocco, but to make the dish anything but Moroccan.
The assertion that "shakshouka originated in Ottoman North Africa" is inaccurate and irrelevant. I propose removing this information from the article altogether.
These changes will help ensure that the article provides clear and accurate information about the origin and spread of chakchouka.
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylmt ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
... it is primarily associated with Moroccan cuisine: What does this mean, exactly? If it means, "when most people think of shakshouka, they think of Morocco", but if, as well,
it is true that chakchouka is popular across the Maghreb region, including countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, then the latter is what we should convey. Our goal is to inform, not to leave people's inaccurate preconceptions undisturbed.
after saying it's a Maghrevi dish, we should say "(North African)" right after. Raturous ( talk) 23:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Came here via WP:3O. The Guardian article does mention Egypt. While this is not a highest-quality source, the sources that are used in the article to support the Maghrebi origin are of similar calibre (e.g., the Jewish Chronicle article). Therefore I think it'd make sense to call it North African dish in the lede. This information should also be added to the article itself, naturally. Alaexis ¿question? 12:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Having followed this discussion a bit as Raturous's wiki- mentor, it looked to me like things were getting a little stuck on one word when the article had a larger problem that the lead wasn't actually just a citation-free summary of the body of the article, as it should be per WP:LEAD. I made some very WP:BOLD edits to the article just now with the idea of improving its overall structure and flow (i.e., grouping all the regional variations into a "shakshuka is various countries" paragraph) and moving all citations to the body, with a new lead that just summarizes the body. There's still a lot of room for refinement -- the article would really benefit from citing some food historians! -- but I hoped this would help un-stick the debate a little and move the article toward improvement. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
i found this book that mentions shakshouka in context of it being an old dish in EgyptIt doesn't. M.Bitton ( talk) 00:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Here are the reliable sources [1] [2] [3] that I found so far. I cited the first two yesterday and I'm evaluating a fourth. I also intend on allocating some time this weekend to search for some more. If you know of any other RS (of the same calibre) that should be considered, please do not hesitate to share. M.Bitton ( talk) 00:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
@ LEvalyn: please refrain from imposing your POV through edit warring. From now, and to avoid a repeat of the same scenario, I suggest we make proposals for the rewrite here. M.Bitton ( talk) 01:59, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
By the nineteenth century, shakshouka had become established as a Tunisian dish..is your WP:OR (the source makes no such claim). Likewise,
The similar Turkish dish menemen shares this origin(that you added in wikipedia's voice) is WP:SYNTH as that's not what either of the two sources (that combined through the use of
this) say. M.Bitton ( talk) 02:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Only Marks explicitly calls the dish Maghrebithat's factually incorrect. This is also shows that you're only reading what you want to read: Sienna describes it as Maghrebi and Buccini associates it with two or possibly three Maghrebi countries (if you think that "Tunisia, Algeria, also Morocco?" are not Maghrebi, then there isn't much I can do to help you).
By the nineteenth century, shakshouka had become established as a Tunisian dish..is your WP:OR that you have failed to justify.
The similar Turkish dish menemen shares this origin(that you added in wikipedia's voice) is WP:SYNTH. Again, your so-called justification for using "it is related to" to imply that the two share a specific origin (in Wikipedia's voice to boot) is really worrying.
The stew spread to North Africa with the Moriscosis also your WP:OR that you attributed to a source.
There, they introduced the stew as shakshoukayour WP:OR, again, attributed to a source.
These kinds of refinementsdon't try to whitewash what you did, because I won't let you.
only reading what I want to read, and acting like I need your permission to edit the article.
don’t try to whitewash what you did, because I won’t let you, is not collaborative. What I did was make a positive contribution to this article using academic sources. I have been reverted and harangued for doing so. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 02:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
What I did was make a positive contribution to this articleNope. What you did is remove content without a valid reason and misrepresent the sources (that I looked for and shared with everyone).
I have provided direct quotes from these sourceswhat you have provided has been dissected above and none of it comes close to explaining what you did.
put back in a version of what I wrote earlier, taking into account M.Bitton’s critiques of the sentences they didn’t like. Writing a new draft, revised in light of the feedback offered on the previous one, is a normal way to improve an article. I will be very happy to see any editor revising the article to address the problems with sourcing and the lead. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 21:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
@ MrOllie: without getting involved in the above dispute, would you be willing to summarize the three sources that I provided above for the history section? I just want someone else to do it (for reasons that I'd rather not get into).
The first source [1] is easily accessible. Repeating what I previously said about it: I personally don't think much of Gil Marks as he sometimes makes some claims that are either extraordinary or factually incorrect. Luckily, the third source (see below) summarizes this source's most important claim.
The second source [2] can also be accessed here. Please see the last paragraph of page 133 as well as page 137. Again, the third source summarizes its most important claim.
The third source [3] is not easily accessible, but it basically boils down to this (though, I can send you the pdf version if it helps):
shakshūka. As shown by Anthony Buccini, shakshūka is one member of a widespread family of “western Mediterranean vegetable stews” developed after the introduction of tomatoes and peppers in the early modern period; it is related to the Turkish menemen and more distantly to the Provençal ratatouille. While Gil Marks suggests that it was introduced to the Maghreb from the Ottoman Empire, it is more likely that the Maghrebi shakshūka and the Turkish menemen share a common ancestor, along with similar dishes like the Basque piperade, Spanish pisto con huevos, and Italian uova in purgatorio (Neapolitan ova ’mpriatorio). The word shakshūka itself derives from an onomatopoeic verb in the Maghrebi dialects of Arabic related to mixing or chopping.
Marcelin Beaussier’s 1871 Arabic dictionary defined shaqshūqa as a term in Tunisian Arabic referring to “a dish composed of tomatoes, fresh peppers, and onions, with eggs on top.” Several recipes for this popular dish appeared in the French press in the 1890s; Le Gaulois, for example, describes shakshūka (chakchouka) as “very suitable for breakfast” and perfect “for housewives in search of exotic preparations.” It recommends adding “a slice of smoked ham to replace the strips of sun-dried lamb” of the original.38 Interestingly, shakshūka first appeared in the French press as “Oeufs à la tunisienne” (Tunisian- style eggs) but over the course of a few years was described as generically North African, then Egyptian, Arabian, and Turkish. This may testify to the movement of shakshūka into the Levant but more likely represents a homogenizing Orientalism in the French colonial empire that did not bother to differentiate local cultures or contexts. Long before shakshūka was a “global food trend” or sold at Trader Joe’s, this dish was already being touted in colonial France as “the dish of the season... that can be appreciated by even the most delicate European palates.”
It is therefore no surprise that Tunisian Jews brought shakshūka with them when they immigrated to Israel in the 1950s (following the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, and especially after Tunisian independence in 1956) along with many other Maghrebi Jews. While many new immigrants from the Islamic world faced discrimination, racism, and anti-Arab sentiment in Israel, certain aspects of their culture, including food, were valorized as contributing to the harmonious mosaic of new Israeli ethnicity and validating the emerging sense of locally rooted Levantine identity. It appears that shakshūka was among the foods adopted by the general Israeli public in the late 1950s; unlike hummus or falafel, however, it had not been previously associated with Palestinian or Levantine cuisine.
Ideally, one to two sentences per claim/source, including the third, should be more than enough (just like the third source summarized the others), but it's up to you.
If you'd rather not, I'll totally understand (no explanation necessary), but please let me know either way. Best, M.Bitton ( talk) 14:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Marks, noting some similarities with the Ottoman dish menemen, suggested that Shakshouka spread to the Maghreb through the influence of the Ottoman Empire. [1] [3] Buccini noted similarities between a wider range of vegetable stews. He (and Gaul et al.) concluded that both Shakshouka and Menemen, among other regional dishes, are members of a wider family of vegetable stews of common ancestry appearing throughout the western Mediterranean. [2] [3]
The migration of Tunisian Jews in the 1950s brought the dish to Israel, where it was subsequently widely adopted despite not being previously present in Palestinian or Levantine cuisine. [3]
References
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cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
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M.Bitton, Skitash, it’s been several days with no changes to the article, but it still definitely needs revision. The two issues are, 1, citations are primarily to low-quality cookbook and news sources; and, 2, the lead does not follow WP:LEAD in presenting a citation-free summary of the body of the article. I still think M.Bitton’s proposal, to rewrite exclusively from the food historians they found and remove the other material, is the right one. I am very willing to contribute to that work, but you’ve found every word I write unacceptable. Could you please begin to implement your own preferred edits to address these two concerns? ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 00:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi, I tried to make a streamline and grammatical adjustment to the article (with a subsequent link to the corresponding wiki article), but the fix was changed back to its original form.
Currently the article describes the recipe as being made from "a sauce of tomatoes". Firstly, the correct spelling of the fruit is "tomato" not "tomatoe".
Secondly "a sauce of tomatoe" is the circuitous way to say "tomato sauce". Lastly, a "tomato sauce" wikipedia article exists here : /info/en/?search=Tomato_sauce Please consider my changes as they are helpful and informative to a potential reader of the article. Skylynx2 ( talk) 20:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Currently the article states that shakshouka originated in Ottoman North Africa in the mid-16th century after tomatoes were introduced by Hernan Cortes.
This could not be the case as Southern Europe and the Islamic world were at odds during that time. According to Wikipedia the Tomato didnt get to the Islamic World until somewhere between 1799 to 1825 by the British. /info/en/?search=Tomato Skylynx2 ( talk) 23:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I am starting a new talk page section again in the hopes it will help this conversation stay focused on one specific problem with the article, namely, that it does not follow WP:LEAD in presenting a citation-free summary of the body of the article. I propose something like the following:
Shakshouka (Arabic: شكشوكة : šakšūkah, also spelled shakshuka or chakchouka) is a dish of eggs poached in a sauce of tomatoes, peppers, onion, and olive oil. The earliest origins of the dish are debated, with two theories pointing to the
Ottoman Empire or the
Western Mediterranean as sources. Tunisian Jews brought the dish to Israel in the 1950s, after which it became globally popular. A wide range of regional variations involve different ingredients for the base sauce or different accompaniments.
M.Bitton, I know that one of your concerns is to keep the term Maghrebi in the lead. However, I think something like the above is more appropriate because the two full sentences on origins are more informative than a single word. I'm proposing my rewording on the talk page since the lead has been contentious in the past, but please do feel free to rewrite the lead directly in the article to address WP:LEAD. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 01:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Shakshouka (Arabic: شكشوكة : šakšūkah, also spelled shakshuka or chakchouka) is a Maghrebi dish of eggs poached in a sauce of tomatoes, peppers, onion, and olive oil. The earliest origins of the dish are debated, with two theories pointing to the Ottoman Empire or the Western Mediterranean as sources. Tunisian Jews brought the dish to Israel in the 1950s, after which it became globally popular. A wide range of regional variations involve different ingredients for the base sauce or different accompaniments.
briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article. It's also the norm for the lead to contain no citations, as all its contents should be cited in the body. However, I don't mind letting the lead re-write wait while the body is improved.
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I'm not sure whether this article and chakchouka should be merged, but they seem to describe the same dish. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The link to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs doesn't appear to work, so I removed the (inaccurate) Hebrew etymology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.92.14 ( talk) 01:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I removed "In Hebrew it means “all mixed up". Despite the article in the Jewish Chronical, the word shakshuka does not mean that in Hebrew. Check any dictionary. It might be used as a metaphor for something that is all mixed up, like salad in English, but salad does not mean "all mixed up" either. Certainly "all mixed up" is not the etymology -- the source or origin -- of either word, shakshuka or salad. Linguistatlunch ( talk) 11:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
It cant be a very old dish since tomatoes and peppers where only introduced to the these cuisines after their cultivation in Europe.-- 77.118.41.164 ( talk) 00:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
In Turkey "Şakşuka" is nothing like what is described here. This one resembles the "menemen". But the turkish şakşuka is more like the Ratatouille. 94.122.192.69 ( talk) 18:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
This section is confusing, probably because more than one person has contributed to it and, as is so often the case, there's been no check on consistency.
"Shakshouka is similar to the Turkish dish menemen, and the Mexican breakfast dish huevos rancheros but different in the fact that the egg yolks are kept whole instead of scrambled."
Well, for a start we could improve on that with this:
"Shakshouka is similar to the Turkish dish menemen, and to the Mexican breakfast dish huevos rancheros, but different in that the egg yolks are whole instead of scrambled."
But the information is wrong anyway. The eggs in huevos rancheros are not scrambled but fried. And therefore "whole". I would argue that shakshouka and huevos rancheros are pretty similar, and that it's the spices which make the difference. Although I admit that the eggs in shakshouka are more-or-less poached rather than fried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.236.90 ( talk) 19:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I have seen this create some confusion among people looking at this article, who don't understand the nuances of the process of aliyah and the creation of the modern israeli society. We should also clarify that it arrived in israel as part of the maghrebi jews migrating to Israel.
Unless I'm missing something here?-- Paolorausch ( talk) 22:28, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Topic has been beaten to death. Cultural appropriation issues notwithstanding, given that this dish is undeniably a staple food in current vegetarian form across North Africa, some evidence needs to be provided to support less likely claim that dish originated or was 'influenced' by Jewish North Africans who made up 2% of population at peak. Much more likely that Jews adopted local dish throughout various waves of migration to North Africa, then undeniably brought it with them to Israel in 20th Century where it has become popular. Irondome: a 1 sentence statement in Jewish cookbook claiming Jewish orginin is NOT reliable evidence. I am a new poster to Wikipedia, not a banned user as previously suggested, but you do not need to be a Wikipedia expert to understand that evidence is needed to substantiate an unlikely claim. Unless reliable evidence or some convincing argument can be provided, the claim should not be included in the article. Dish should be attributed broadly as North African without making additional unfounded claims as to origin from a small population within. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo.jones ( talk • contribs) 23:06, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello @ ZackTheCardshark: No one says otherwise but its an Arabic word, Hebrew is unrelated. So it doesn't mean you have to put its name because it is used in Israeli cuisine.-- Sarah Canbel ( talk) 18:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I have restored the organizational changes made by 161.10.59.76, but would like an explanation of what content needs to be adjusted for NPOV. I also don't understand why you removed content about shakshouka being served as an evening meal in Israel - I don't think it is found on evening menus in all countries, so isn't this quirk worth a brief mention? Seraphim System ( talk) 16:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Whatever happened to Palestine? Is it to be erased from memory? Not to be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popenda ( talk • contribs) 19:02, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
It seems that multiple users are editing back and fourth with one another over the origin of the dish, instead of bickering over and over how about we try to find a resolution instead Reinhearted ( talk) 02:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Macrakis: I removed the page needed tag because this is an e-book that does not have page numbers. Spudlace ( talk) 20:26, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Most sources agree that the egg dish (as opposed to the meat dishes of the same name) is Maghrebi. As far as I can tell, the claim that it is from Ottoman Turkey (as opposed to the Ottoman Maghreb) or from Yemen come from one newspaper article, which doesn't seem like a particularly solid source, as it doesn't give its own sources. I think we can "demote" those claims as non-mainstream. -- Macrakis ( talk) 16:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I noticed Israel wasn't mentioned in the lede at all, so I changed this to Israeli cuisine. Before doing this I searched for confirmation in reliable sources that this dish in its poached egg form is consumed anywhere outside Israel. I couldn't find any such confirmation (although similar dishes like Uovos in Purgatorio are given brief mention). To the contrary, it may be that shakshouka refers mostly to non-egg dishes outside Israel? Then I saw this recently published article:
Shakshuka, which is consumed daily in Tunisia, is referred to by all as ‘Israeli’, while the cultural identity of the Tunisian community in which it was invented is erased.
If this is true it would be nice to have other sources confirming it so we can change the lede back because it definitely wasn't my intention to erase any cultural identities. If no other sources can be found I am going to remove some of this. Spudlace ( talk) 01:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I think it is probably a little inappropriate to define it in those terms, as the dish is widely consumed across the Middle East. I still need to find a good source for this, but it appears to be pretty common knowledge People eat it all over North Africa, Egypt and the Levant, as one would expect of a dish initially conceived in the 16th century. I'm also not 100% sure if the Tunisian specific angle is totally accurate either. Harissa is very Tunisian, but the dish can also be less or even not spicy. It's possible that the dish with harissa is just a Tunisian variant. There is obviously the Algerian chakchouka and I've seen claims of a Moroccan shakshouka too. Here, a Yemeni connection is even posited. By and large, I think reductionist labelling with regards to this dish is likely to be overly simplistic. Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:04, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Is this some kind of joke? How on earth can a dish that is closely associated with the Maghreb and attested there (Algeria and Tunisia) in sources [1] [2] that predate the creation of Israel be described as Israeli? I have restored the stable version that mentions the region it's associated with. M.Bitton ( talk) 12:54, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
References
This was added recently and reverted multiple times until an administrator protected the page. No discussion was started on the talk page but the edit warring has stopped for now. Is there any reason we shouldn't add Middle Eastern to the first sentence while keeping Maghrebi. It's been discussed previously and rejected to change it to Israeli or Jewish. Would the addition of Middle Eastern be an improvement? It has become part of the local cuisine of the Middle Eastern countries. It is just as much Middle Eastern as Maghrebi and often described that way by reliable sources. Spudlace ( talk) 18:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
This isn’t indicated in the cited article, which I read. This is a big claim. I am from New York and know people all over America. I inquired just now of many of them and none of us have ever heard of this dish. Is “globally popularized” really accurate? Alexandermoir ( talk) 19:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Duponiuex, this edit was undone because it reinstated claims that are categorically false. The Jews that are historically associated with Shakshouka are not Sephardic Jews but specifically Maghrebi Jews, because it is a Maghrebi dish. And since it has been a Maghrebi dish for centuries, was only brought to Israel in the second half of the 20th century, and is now presented as Israeli cuisine, then it has been appropriated. If you have WP:reliable sources that somehow prove otherwise, you can seek consensus for changes here on the talk page. إيان ( talk) 04:15, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Duponiuex: The opinion of a chef does not refute scholarly consensus as evidenced in the multiple WP:reliable academic journals that your edit removed. The chef's opinion will not be given WP:Undue coverage on this page. What you contribute on Wikipedia needs to be supported by WP:reliable sources. إيان ( talk) 12:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
In Jewish culture, a large batch of tomato stew is made for the Sabbath dinner and the leftovers used the following morning to make a breakfast shakshouka with eggs.
No, no and no.
There is no tomato stew in Jewish culture, annd shakshouka cannot be cooked on Shabbat morning. (only reheated) I have no access to the source.
Eliedaat ( talk) 06:35, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
The statement "Shakshouka is a Maghribi dish" may be misleading. While it is true that chakchouka is popular across the Maghreb region, including countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, it is primarily associated with Moroccan cuisine. Therefore, I suggest revising the statement to clarify that while chakchouka is enjoyed in various Maghreb countries, it originated in Morocco and subsequently spread to other North African and Middle Eastern countries. This part of the article: "Shakshouka is a Maghribi dish" used to be: "Shakshouka is a Moroccan dish" on this exact Wikipedia article.
It is misleading because the word Maghribi in arabic = Moroccan. However the change made here not to use the Arab word for Morocco, but to make the dish anything but Moroccan.
The assertion that "shakshouka originated in Ottoman North Africa" is inaccurate and irrelevant. I propose removing this information from the article altogether.
These changes will help ensure that the article provides clear and accurate information about the origin and spread of chakchouka.
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylmt ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
... it is primarily associated with Moroccan cuisine: What does this mean, exactly? If it means, "when most people think of shakshouka, they think of Morocco", but if, as well,
it is true that chakchouka is popular across the Maghreb region, including countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, then the latter is what we should convey. Our goal is to inform, not to leave people's inaccurate preconceptions undisturbed.
after saying it's a Maghrevi dish, we should say "(North African)" right after. Raturous ( talk) 23:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Came here via WP:3O. The Guardian article does mention Egypt. While this is not a highest-quality source, the sources that are used in the article to support the Maghrebi origin are of similar calibre (e.g., the Jewish Chronicle article). Therefore I think it'd make sense to call it North African dish in the lede. This information should also be added to the article itself, naturally. Alaexis ¿question? 12:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Having followed this discussion a bit as Raturous's wiki- mentor, it looked to me like things were getting a little stuck on one word when the article had a larger problem that the lead wasn't actually just a citation-free summary of the body of the article, as it should be per WP:LEAD. I made some very WP:BOLD edits to the article just now with the idea of improving its overall structure and flow (i.e., grouping all the regional variations into a "shakshuka is various countries" paragraph) and moving all citations to the body, with a new lead that just summarizes the body. There's still a lot of room for refinement -- the article would really benefit from citing some food historians! -- but I hoped this would help un-stick the debate a little and move the article toward improvement. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
i found this book that mentions shakshouka in context of it being an old dish in EgyptIt doesn't. M.Bitton ( talk) 00:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Here are the reliable sources [1] [2] [3] that I found so far. I cited the first two yesterday and I'm evaluating a fourth. I also intend on allocating some time this weekend to search for some more. If you know of any other RS (of the same calibre) that should be considered, please do not hesitate to share. M.Bitton ( talk) 00:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
@ LEvalyn: please refrain from imposing your POV through edit warring. From now, and to avoid a repeat of the same scenario, I suggest we make proposals for the rewrite here. M.Bitton ( talk) 01:59, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
By the nineteenth century, shakshouka had become established as a Tunisian dish..is your WP:OR (the source makes no such claim). Likewise,
The similar Turkish dish menemen shares this origin(that you added in wikipedia's voice) is WP:SYNTH as that's not what either of the two sources (that combined through the use of
this) say. M.Bitton ( talk) 02:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Only Marks explicitly calls the dish Maghrebithat's factually incorrect. This is also shows that you're only reading what you want to read: Sienna describes it as Maghrebi and Buccini associates it with two or possibly three Maghrebi countries (if you think that "Tunisia, Algeria, also Morocco?" are not Maghrebi, then there isn't much I can do to help you).
By the nineteenth century, shakshouka had become established as a Tunisian dish..is your WP:OR that you have failed to justify.
The similar Turkish dish menemen shares this origin(that you added in wikipedia's voice) is WP:SYNTH. Again, your so-called justification for using "it is related to" to imply that the two share a specific origin (in Wikipedia's voice to boot) is really worrying.
The stew spread to North Africa with the Moriscosis also your WP:OR that you attributed to a source.
There, they introduced the stew as shakshoukayour WP:OR, again, attributed to a source.
These kinds of refinementsdon't try to whitewash what you did, because I won't let you.
only reading what I want to read, and acting like I need your permission to edit the article.
don’t try to whitewash what you did, because I won’t let you, is not collaborative. What I did was make a positive contribution to this article using academic sources. I have been reverted and harangued for doing so. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 02:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
What I did was make a positive contribution to this articleNope. What you did is remove content without a valid reason and misrepresent the sources (that I looked for and shared with everyone).
I have provided direct quotes from these sourceswhat you have provided has been dissected above and none of it comes close to explaining what you did.
put back in a version of what I wrote earlier, taking into account M.Bitton’s critiques of the sentences they didn’t like. Writing a new draft, revised in light of the feedback offered on the previous one, is a normal way to improve an article. I will be very happy to see any editor revising the article to address the problems with sourcing and the lead. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 21:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
@ MrOllie: without getting involved in the above dispute, would you be willing to summarize the three sources that I provided above for the history section? I just want someone else to do it (for reasons that I'd rather not get into).
The first source [1] is easily accessible. Repeating what I previously said about it: I personally don't think much of Gil Marks as he sometimes makes some claims that are either extraordinary or factually incorrect. Luckily, the third source (see below) summarizes this source's most important claim.
The second source [2] can also be accessed here. Please see the last paragraph of page 133 as well as page 137. Again, the third source summarizes its most important claim.
The third source [3] is not easily accessible, but it basically boils down to this (though, I can send you the pdf version if it helps):
shakshūka. As shown by Anthony Buccini, shakshūka is one member of a widespread family of “western Mediterranean vegetable stews” developed after the introduction of tomatoes and peppers in the early modern period; it is related to the Turkish menemen and more distantly to the Provençal ratatouille. While Gil Marks suggests that it was introduced to the Maghreb from the Ottoman Empire, it is more likely that the Maghrebi shakshūka and the Turkish menemen share a common ancestor, along with similar dishes like the Basque piperade, Spanish pisto con huevos, and Italian uova in purgatorio (Neapolitan ova ’mpriatorio). The word shakshūka itself derives from an onomatopoeic verb in the Maghrebi dialects of Arabic related to mixing or chopping.
Marcelin Beaussier’s 1871 Arabic dictionary defined shaqshūqa as a term in Tunisian Arabic referring to “a dish composed of tomatoes, fresh peppers, and onions, with eggs on top.” Several recipes for this popular dish appeared in the French press in the 1890s; Le Gaulois, for example, describes shakshūka (chakchouka) as “very suitable for breakfast” and perfect “for housewives in search of exotic preparations.” It recommends adding “a slice of smoked ham to replace the strips of sun-dried lamb” of the original.38 Interestingly, shakshūka first appeared in the French press as “Oeufs à la tunisienne” (Tunisian- style eggs) but over the course of a few years was described as generically North African, then Egyptian, Arabian, and Turkish. This may testify to the movement of shakshūka into the Levant but more likely represents a homogenizing Orientalism in the French colonial empire that did not bother to differentiate local cultures or contexts. Long before shakshūka was a “global food trend” or sold at Trader Joe’s, this dish was already being touted in colonial France as “the dish of the season... that can be appreciated by even the most delicate European palates.”
It is therefore no surprise that Tunisian Jews brought shakshūka with them when they immigrated to Israel in the 1950s (following the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, and especially after Tunisian independence in 1956) along with many other Maghrebi Jews. While many new immigrants from the Islamic world faced discrimination, racism, and anti-Arab sentiment in Israel, certain aspects of their culture, including food, were valorized as contributing to the harmonious mosaic of new Israeli ethnicity and validating the emerging sense of locally rooted Levantine identity. It appears that shakshūka was among the foods adopted by the general Israeli public in the late 1950s; unlike hummus or falafel, however, it had not been previously associated with Palestinian or Levantine cuisine.
Ideally, one to two sentences per claim/source, including the third, should be more than enough (just like the third source summarized the others), but it's up to you.
If you'd rather not, I'll totally understand (no explanation necessary), but please let me know either way. Best, M.Bitton ( talk) 14:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Marks, noting some similarities with the Ottoman dish menemen, suggested that Shakshouka spread to the Maghreb through the influence of the Ottoman Empire. [1] [3] Buccini noted similarities between a wider range of vegetable stews. He (and Gaul et al.) concluded that both Shakshouka and Menemen, among other regional dishes, are members of a wider family of vegetable stews of common ancestry appearing throughout the western Mediterranean. [2] [3]
The migration of Tunisian Jews in the 1950s brought the dish to Israel, where it was subsequently widely adopted despite not being previously present in Palestinian or Levantine cuisine. [3]
References
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M.Bitton, Skitash, it’s been several days with no changes to the article, but it still definitely needs revision. The two issues are, 1, citations are primarily to low-quality cookbook and news sources; and, 2, the lead does not follow WP:LEAD in presenting a citation-free summary of the body of the article. I still think M.Bitton’s proposal, to rewrite exclusively from the food historians they found and remove the other material, is the right one. I am very willing to contribute to that work, but you’ve found every word I write unacceptable. Could you please begin to implement your own preferred edits to address these two concerns? ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 00:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi, I tried to make a streamline and grammatical adjustment to the article (with a subsequent link to the corresponding wiki article), but the fix was changed back to its original form.
Currently the article describes the recipe as being made from "a sauce of tomatoes". Firstly, the correct spelling of the fruit is "tomato" not "tomatoe".
Secondly "a sauce of tomatoe" is the circuitous way to say "tomato sauce". Lastly, a "tomato sauce" wikipedia article exists here : /info/en/?search=Tomato_sauce Please consider my changes as they are helpful and informative to a potential reader of the article. Skylynx2 ( talk) 20:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Currently the article states that shakshouka originated in Ottoman North Africa in the mid-16th century after tomatoes were introduced by Hernan Cortes.
This could not be the case as Southern Europe and the Islamic world were at odds during that time. According to Wikipedia the Tomato didnt get to the Islamic World until somewhere between 1799 to 1825 by the British. /info/en/?search=Tomato Skylynx2 ( talk) 23:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I am starting a new talk page section again in the hopes it will help this conversation stay focused on one specific problem with the article, namely, that it does not follow WP:LEAD in presenting a citation-free summary of the body of the article. I propose something like the following:
Shakshouka (Arabic: شكشوكة : šakšūkah, also spelled shakshuka or chakchouka) is a dish of eggs poached in a sauce of tomatoes, peppers, onion, and olive oil. The earliest origins of the dish are debated, with two theories pointing to the
Ottoman Empire or the
Western Mediterranean as sources. Tunisian Jews brought the dish to Israel in the 1950s, after which it became globally popular. A wide range of regional variations involve different ingredients for the base sauce or different accompaniments.
M.Bitton, I know that one of your concerns is to keep the term Maghrebi in the lead. However, I think something like the above is more appropriate because the two full sentences on origins are more informative than a single word. I'm proposing my rewording on the talk page since the lead has been contentious in the past, but please do feel free to rewrite the lead directly in the article to address WP:LEAD. ~ L 🌸 ( talk) 01:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Shakshouka (Arabic: شكشوكة : šakšūkah, also spelled shakshuka or chakchouka) is a Maghrebi dish of eggs poached in a sauce of tomatoes, peppers, onion, and olive oil. The earliest origins of the dish are debated, with two theories pointing to the Ottoman Empire or the Western Mediterranean as sources. Tunisian Jews brought the dish to Israel in the 1950s, after which it became globally popular. A wide range of regional variations involve different ingredients for the base sauce or different accompaniments.
briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article. It's also the norm for the lead to contain no citations, as all its contents should be cited in the body. However, I don't mind letting the lead re-write wait while the body is improved.