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I'm pretty sure the human brain does have inherent survival benefits. I don't know what the last section in this article is even talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.133.92 ( talk) 07:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. It is ludicrous to say the brain has no fitness value, or that fitness can not increase as the brain gets bigger because of its energy consumption. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.27.68 ( talk) 14:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest toning down some of the theories about race. I would suggest that the main focus should be on the evolution of homo sapiens from the pan-homo split to before the Out of Africa migration. However we can mention that some of the trivial differences in physical appearance between the races could be the result of sexual selection. Any other theories are likely to be controversial. Wapondaponda ( talk) 23:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Ufwuct ref of Sweet conceding light skin in historically hunter gatherer population in Africa [1]
Nothing is proven sure, I didn't mean to give that impression Overagainst ( talk) 18:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC) This pattern is still consistent with the relationship between skin color and latitude as the Khoisan live below the tropic of capricorn Yes Muntuwandi but I pointed out the light skin of Khoisans in the context of FW Sweets' agriculture hypothesis becuase that is the hypothisis which the light skin of Khoisans is an anomaly for, not the latitude hypothesis. The criticism section is supposed to show that the ideas in the article about sexual selection in human evolution are merely hypothesises and are not proven to be responsible for lightening ( or darkening) of skin color and that they have problems. The problems with the rival theories such as the one the light skin of African hunter gatheres pose for Sweets' agriculture hypothesis are given for balance because the rivals to sexual selection are also no more than hypothesises. I do give the latitude hypothesis its due in the article as shown in the following This idea dovetails with a subsequent need for photoprotection and is part of a leading explanation for the evolution of highly pigmented skin by Nina J. Jablonski and George Chaplin.[4] Maybe I should change that to the leading explanation for the evolution of highly pigmented skin? However, it is no more than that, the latitude explaination is not proven to be true any more than sexual selection or the switch to agriculture explaination. Overagainst ( talk) 19:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Sexual selection could have played a role, but if it did, why is it that people from around the world have different skin colors? That is an excellent point. I had a picture of Naomi Campbell prominently dislayed to illustate that very thing with explanatory text saying standards of attactiveness do not vary but someone claimed it was unreferenced ( it wasn't as it was repeated in the main text where a ref was supplied) and took it upon themselves to remove it. Overagainst ( talk) 20:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Ufwuct, give examples and explaination of what you mean please! Overagainst ( talk) 19:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC) The ref for the first para of text of the subsection is 17 SEXUAL SELECTION AND HUMAN GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION,maybe was not clear that it is the ref to the foregoing assertions made in the para. Overagainst ( talk) 20:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC) Overagainst ( talk) 21:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have further qualified the subsection and it is now made clear the subsection outlines the particular hypothesis of an individual anthropologist and the proposed explaination is not the most accepted one among scientists. However Peter Frost's sexual selection hypothesis is what the skin color review was refering to, therefor it is presented as what it is - a leading sexual selection hypothesis. Overagainst ( talk) 21:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The article needs to be based on reliable secondary sources per WP:PSTS. Here are a few sources that may form a useful foundation for this article
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help)Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
"Eberhard (1985, 1991) has demonstrated a substantial role for female choice in the evolution of male genitalia. The human penis is a prime example: [...]The size and flexibility of the human penis is more likely the result of female choice than sperm competition because sperm competition generally favors large testicles, as in the small-penised chimpanzee (Baker& Bellis, 1995; Harcourt & Harvey, 1984; G. Parker, 1984; Smith, 1984). But ref 33 Semen Displacement as a Sperm Competition Strategy in Humans contradicts him Overagainst ( talk) 15:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
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help)Yes lack of Sexual Dimorphism is an anomaly for sexual selection, that criticism is given the last word in the section in the ' Criticism ', subsection which ends thus:- "However a leading proponent of the agriculturally caused pigmentation hypothesis maintains that sexual selection can not account for European pigmentation as it would have almost certainly have resulted in the traits of lighter skin, hair and eyes exhibiting strong sexual dimorphism". The criticism subsection has a photo of a very blond man to emphasize the point. Overagainst ( talk) 11:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
"universal features of the human species that may (or are) likely to have emerged by sexual selection" Show me where it says assume the direction and internsity of sexual selection has always and everywhere been the same (which may, or may not, be true). It doesn't, any more than it says 'assume direction and internsity of natural selection has always and everywhere been the same'. Anyway universal features of the human species would leave us with humans at the time of out of Africa which was the last time everyone looked alike . Please note: I was not the one who put the section on penis size in the article and in fact the article originally stated ( as the main Sexual selection article still does) that display of erections by males to females led to sexual selection of penis size. I just gave an alternative view which certain scientists have suggested. Overagainst ( talk) 19:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Skin color, eye color {...} are of perpetual interest but unfortunately theories of sexual selection applied to some of these differences are still speculative. Yes but so are the natural selection ones ( as I point out above a review of the proposed explainations for skin color does not conclude the natural selection one is the only viable theory), are you also objecting to the account of the natural selection explaination for
skin color being given on Wikipedia?
Overagainst (
talk)
20:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
All features of humans are universal features because humans are a species. Sexual selection is just a type of adaptation, and for obvious reasons it is focused on superficial aspects of human anatomy, I can't help that in an article on sexual selection in human evolution these superficial pigmentary traits are going to be included. In a "Natural selection in human evolution" article it would be perfectly OK to discuss skin color. in fact a prestigious paper which I have quoted in the article (reference 5) suggest it is a good way to teach natural selection. "indeed the case for human skin color as a adaptation to UV radiation is so clear an example of the mechanism of evolution by natural selection that it is a perfect model to demonstrate it. Jablonski, N.; Chaplin, G. (2010). "Colloquium paper: human skin pigmentation as an adaptation to UV radiation". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 107"
I am surprised that you think there is a lack of emphasis on sexual dimorphism of human anatomy as the article makes clear it discusses skin color because it is an example of sexual dimorphism of human anatomy . This excessive focus tends to diminish many other important aspects of sexual selection theories. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8962.full. I'm all for you giving other important aspects their correct emphasis no ones objecting to you doing a section on them. But you seem to be talking about deleting certain aspects of the article not adding things. I don't know what you mean by focus - only one thing can be focused on at a time, as wiki articles are a joint effort there are going to be various focuses in the article. Everyone adds their important aspects and the article takes shape. Secondary sources are necessary when things are being stated as facts, Please give examples of something being stated as a fact without a secondary source, I think you'll find it's made clear they are hypotheses as are just about anything that could be in the article or in one about natural selection.
The fact is Darwin thought there had been sexual selection of skin color in some cases Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex That is going to be mentioned in any article on sexual selection, modern hypothesis ( repeat hypotheses) along the same lines also belong in the article. Maybe the stuff about skin color takes up too much space at present and should be edited down a bit but I can't accept that nothing about sexual selection by modern authors or even Darwin, should appear in the article. It is not true that Wikipedia allows only proven theories supported by secondary sources as you seem to be saying . Many things in science are remain open questions as with skin color and this is not an article on skin color but sexual selection. An account of the sexual selection hypothesis is not impermissible as long as it is made clear it is merely one of a number of hypothesis which attempt to account for skin color( and it is not suggested all skin color is due to sexual selection UV radiation is likely for the medium skin color of most of the world according to Manning and Frost.) Here is a secondary and tertiary source for the statement for that human beings are sexually dimorphic in skin tone. Human Evolutionary Biology By Michael P. Muehlenbein (2010) p.204. and its possible relevance for skin color.
An article about sexual selection in human evolution which does not mention Darwin's ideas about sexual selection in human evolution is a travesty. The fact is he did talk about variation in skin color in humans and sexual selection and a closely related modern hypothesis exists. Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex The Heretic in Darwin's Court: The Life of Alfred Russel Wallace By Ross A. Slotten. I have a tertiary source for the statement for that human beings are sexually dimorphic in skin tone. Human Evolutionary Biology By Michael P. Muehlenbein (2010) p.204. and this tertiary source also discusses the possible relevance for skin color.I do have a secondary source ( review of skin color) (ref 23 - Juzeniene, A.; Setlow, R.; Porojnicu, A.; Steindal, A.; Moan, J. (2009). "Development of different human skin colors: a review highlighting photobiological and photobiophysical aspects.". Journal of photochemistry and photobiology. B, Biology 96 (2): 93–100) for the statement that sexual selection is a possible explaination for the evolution of white skin Such a discussion is necessary in the article in my opinion. You are proposing that modern ideas about sexual selection are to be mentioned only if they are about the 'evolution of homo sapiens from the pan-homo split to before the Out of Africa migration. As the environments which are proposed to have been responsible for sexual selection were long after the time modern humans left Africa and some were in Europe I don't see how those aspects of sexual selection can be discussed without covering all human evolution.
As I pointed out about the Dawkins penis size theory virtually nothing is proven in this area or isn't controversial. One that isn't which you suggested above is sexual dimorphism of human anatomy. Basically what features of human biology, features that are universally found in all populations, are most likely to have emerged by sexual selection rather than pure natural selection. Sexual dimorphism comes to mind I have a tertiary source for the statement for that human beings are sexually dimorphic in skin tone. Human Evolutionary Biology By Michael P. Muehlenbein (2010) p.204. and this tertiary source also discusses the possible relevance for sexual selection of skin color among other explainations. I have a secondary source ( review of skin color) (ref 23 - Juzeniene, A.; Setlow, R.; Porojnicu, A.; Steindal, A.; Moan, J. (2009). "Development of different human skin colors: a review highlighting photobiological and photobiophysical aspects.". Journal of photochemistry and photobiology. B, Biology 96 (2): 93–100) for the statement that sexual selection is a possible explaination for the evolution of white skin. I would like to know what (if any) Wikipedia guideline the idea that hypotheses about sexual selection which may have occurred after out of Africa can not be discussed is is drawn from. Overagainst ( talk) 19:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Evolution by SS is going to affect aspects of appearance mainly, in humans that is going to mean that appearance is discussed quite a bit and skin color is very relevant to apearance and is sexually dimorphic. I have no objection to some some judicious pruning of the skin color section. Overagainst ( talk) 09:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
If anyone thinks that that the article misses a lot of important information about sexual selection and overemphasises a marginal subtopic they ought to add the important information which they believe is missing and help balance the article. Overagainst ( talk) 12:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
To start with, we could do with eliminating some or all of the images. The list of images is
These images make the article look quite forumish. At the very least the use of these images borders on original research because I am not aware that these specific images have been used in any of the literature that is cited in the article. The article brings together race, sex and beauty. While these three subjects always fascinate or intrigue, we shouldn't get too carried away with them, and forget what the article is about. The focus should remain on mainstream scientific findings, not on beauty or celebrities. Wapondaponda ( talk) 18:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Naomi Campbell - 'Across a wide range of cultures a female face is seen as attractive ' is the most important image of all IMO. The schizophrenia article is one of the Featured articles, it has an image of John Nash (who is a celebrity) which is not used in the literature that is cited in the article. Therefor using a picture of a woman of diverse ancestry [[[Naomi Campbell]] who is generally regarded as attractive to illustrate the central point that standards of attractiveness are the same across a wide range of cultures is perfectly acceptable. The fact she is a celebrity because she is a top model has the added advantage that no one could deny she is generally regarded as attractive, the accompanying text gives a reference. You are right that this is not about celebrities and but unfortunately it was difficult to find a suitable image of a woman who no one could deny is attractive who is not a celebrity.
Major depressive disorder is one of the Featured articles it has an image of Vincent van Gogh's 1890 painting At Eternity's Gate to illustrate depression. The 'Marilyn Monroe on stage' image is there because it shows a woman with visible markers of mate quality signifying fecundity, "A gynoid pattern of fat distribution, with small waist and large hips (low waist‐to‐hip ratio, or WHR) holds significant fitness benefits for women: women with a low WHR of about 0.7 are more fecund, are less prone to chronic disease, and (in most cultures) are considered more attractive". Waist‐to‐Hip Ratio across Cultures: Trade‐Offs between Androgen‐ and Estrogen‐Dependent Traits. What is being talked about in the text is the difference between signification of fertility by traits like small waist and large hips and the traits which do not signify fertility such as hair color or eye color which it is hypothesized have been selected . The article says "If mate competition is relatively weak, sexual selection focuses primarily on visible markers of mate quality which signify fecundity, as mate competition intensifies the focus will shift from functional to eye-catching novelty rather than biologic 'truth in advertising'". reference [2]. Maybe the point could be made clearer. If you can find an image of a non celebrity woman ( of any ethnicity ) that does the job of the Marilyn Monroe on stage' image then that could replace it, the fact MM is blond or white is not relevant to the point being made. Anyway an image of a woman with a small waist and large hips ( celebrity or not) is hardly out of place in an article such as this.
I have no objections to elimination of the images - San woman, olive green eyes, Long blond hair, or A blond man. Overagainst ( talk) 21:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
There is a reason to use an image of an attractive woman as the point being made is that standards of attractiveness do not vary around the world, this not a tangental point in an article about sexual selection, the only suitable image I found happened to be of a celebrity. Again, there are featured articles which use celebrities' the issue is whether it is relevant to the point that is being made.
I think there is an exact analogy between the Illustration from Darwin showing the Tufted Coquette Lophornis ornatus, and an article on sexual selection in humans showing a human being. If you can think you have a better image to use let's see it. Is it so odd to have a image of a human being in the 'Sexual selection in human evolution' article? (Got to go now, to be cont.) Overagainst ( talk) 13:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes it does if, as is being argued here, Western standards of physical attractiveness are more or less the same as everywhere else. An account of a hypothesis is given in which it is being suggested that people from a wide range of cultures agree about what is attractive, this explains an anomaly for a theory of sexual selection which puzzled Darwin. Darwin thought many differences in appearance were trivial and of no practical use thus probably evolved under sexual rather than natural selection. If the Western standards of attractiveness was different to that in other parts of the world that would explain how sexual selection had resulted in different appearance, ( Darwin was using words that we wouldn't use today obviously) Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex. However Darwin also n later notes that some Europeans who had travelled in the interior of Africa where the natives had not been infuenced by Western standards were convinced that the African ideas of beauty was on the whole similar to that of Westerners, ( and vice versa Europeans agreed with native judgements about native girls) He noted that Africans admired a beard although they did not have full beards. This is an anomaly for if sexual selection is an important factor responsible for the appearance of humans and the standard of attractivenes is much the same around the world how could sexual selection have resulted in humans appearance varying around the world. [10] SEXUAL SELECTION AND HUMAN GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION suggests a way sexual selection could be responsible.
I have to disagree with you - high eyebrows, widely spaced large eyes with dilated pupils, high cheekbones, a small nose, a narrow face with thin cheeks, a large smile, a full lower lip, a small chin, and a full hairstyle. To me the image of Naomi Campbell helps a reader understand what that looks like, that such characteristics are found all around the World, (ie in people of many ancestries) and most importantly that these characteristics are recognised as being attractive in a wide range of cultures. It's not about Naomi Campbell and the image of her can be replaced if you can find a image that does the same job. I'll admit the image of Naomi Campbell is not alongside the relevant part of the article. Marilyn monroe on stage image is not realy important, personally I don't think it is out of place or offensively gratuitous. Overagainst ( talk) 18:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree Trivers is very important Sexual selection and the descent of man: the Darwinian pivot and should be talked about before and given more prominence than the the ideas of Manning and Frost. It is going to be necessary to discuss hypothesis about what are percieved as sexually attractive characterics and why while making it clear there are alternative explainations for those perceptions of course . Here is one -" I find that women are portrayed as having fairer complexions on average than men of the same race. I address possible biological interpretations of this difference and find them wanting. I develop an alternative explanation for the findings and argue that complexion ideals are related to dominant attitudes toward gender roles and to larger cultural meanings given to lightness and darkness. This meaning-based explanation to understanding aesthetics asserts that the dominant meanings of lightness and darkness in our culture are considered more ideally feminine and masculine, respectively. [11]The moral underpinnings of beauty: A meaning-based explanation for light and dark complexions in advertising. Overagainst ( talk) 19:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Well sexual selection of men is discussed quite extensively. there could be an image of Will Smith, he is mentioned. I find it difficult to believe it's really true that you can't see the relevance of the picture of Naomi Campbell to illustrating what is considered attractive across a range of cultures. And yet again I'll repeat that featured articles make use of images of humans including celebrities to illustrate the featured articles in a far more 'tangential' way than the use of the image of Cambell is, I've given examples above. Featured articles are there to serve as a guide you know! Overagainst ( talk) 13:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
The last part about glans ridge as sperm displacement must have a reference!
Well, I kind of doubt that the evolution was indeed towards "larger size". Google images shows quite a range of penis sizes :-) Where was this suggestion made? Kaligelos ( talk) 19:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is still bizarrely focused on skin color. It was so bizarre that I came to this page figuring there must be some discussion. Why is there a paragraph on skin color in the intro? In the section "Darwin and more recent hypotheses" the only "more recent" theory is one about skin color. Why is the section on "Direction and intensity of sexual selection" so focused on skin color? Likewise the "criticism" section is mostly about skin color. I have no objection to the skin color stuff being here but why not have a separate header for "skin color and other pigmentation" so it is at least frank, and so the holes are more clear? That is my suggestion -- a section for "skin color and other pigmentation" at the same level as "sexual dimorphism" and moving the paragraph from the intro, and other sections, into that section. Jytdog ( talk) 16:25, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Further on this, it seems that the entire section on "Direction and intensity of sexual selection" says nothing about this in general and is solely focused on reprising Peter Frost's theory on why European women (and thus Europeans) have diversity in pigmentation (he seems to believe that Europeans have more pigment diversity than other peoples -- is this even true?) In any case I suggest eliminating this section it is not what it says it is. I would like to move this long explanation to the article on Frost, and editing down a brief paragraph on Frost's ideas about pigmentation and putting it in to the section on sexual dimorphism in this article. Let me know your thoughts! Jytdog ( talk) 16:45, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Before slapping on a POV tag, please identify some text in the article that is a problem, and briefly say why. What text is part of a controversial racist theory? It's alright for a hypothesis to be wrong—that doesn't make it racist, and there are reputable views that sexual selection was a strong force in at least some cases (although I think everyone agrees with the comments above about the origin of dark skin). For example, here is a view from Jared Diamond which includes opinions on inhabitants of Tasmania. Johnuniq ( talk) 02:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
I've tagged the Genital mutilation section for POV as it deals with a single academician's views on the matter. If we're unable to find further sources on it, it's probably given undue weight within the article as a whole. Finnusertop ( talk | guestbook | contribs) 19:09, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
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Romantic selection in humans redirect here, but romance and sexuality are not the same.
"Forty-four (10.6%) participants reported discordant sexual and romantic orientations."
Benjamin ( talk) 22:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
What evidence is there for humans contemplating - consciously, subconsciously or unconsciously - the reproductive success of their successors? Let alone the contemplation of any factor that may influence that. I don't think people do. Not at all. Does any organism? I think humans are totally preoccupied solely with their own self-satisfaction when choosing a mate; nothing else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.151.210.84 ( talk) 05:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
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I'm pretty sure the human brain does have inherent survival benefits. I don't know what the last section in this article is even talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.133.92 ( talk) 07:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. It is ludicrous to say the brain has no fitness value, or that fitness can not increase as the brain gets bigger because of its energy consumption. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.27.68 ( talk) 14:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest toning down some of the theories about race. I would suggest that the main focus should be on the evolution of homo sapiens from the pan-homo split to before the Out of Africa migration. However we can mention that some of the trivial differences in physical appearance between the races could be the result of sexual selection. Any other theories are likely to be controversial. Wapondaponda ( talk) 23:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Ufwuct ref of Sweet conceding light skin in historically hunter gatherer population in Africa [1]
Nothing is proven sure, I didn't mean to give that impression Overagainst ( talk) 18:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC) This pattern is still consistent with the relationship between skin color and latitude as the Khoisan live below the tropic of capricorn Yes Muntuwandi but I pointed out the light skin of Khoisans in the context of FW Sweets' agriculture hypothesis becuase that is the hypothisis which the light skin of Khoisans is an anomaly for, not the latitude hypothesis. The criticism section is supposed to show that the ideas in the article about sexual selection in human evolution are merely hypothesises and are not proven to be responsible for lightening ( or darkening) of skin color and that they have problems. The problems with the rival theories such as the one the light skin of African hunter gatheres pose for Sweets' agriculture hypothesis are given for balance because the rivals to sexual selection are also no more than hypothesises. I do give the latitude hypothesis its due in the article as shown in the following This idea dovetails with a subsequent need for photoprotection and is part of a leading explanation for the evolution of highly pigmented skin by Nina J. Jablonski and George Chaplin.[4] Maybe I should change that to the leading explanation for the evolution of highly pigmented skin? However, it is no more than that, the latitude explaination is not proven to be true any more than sexual selection or the switch to agriculture explaination. Overagainst ( talk) 19:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Sexual selection could have played a role, but if it did, why is it that people from around the world have different skin colors? That is an excellent point. I had a picture of Naomi Campbell prominently dislayed to illustate that very thing with explanatory text saying standards of attactiveness do not vary but someone claimed it was unreferenced ( it wasn't as it was repeated in the main text where a ref was supplied) and took it upon themselves to remove it. Overagainst ( talk) 20:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Ufwuct, give examples and explaination of what you mean please! Overagainst ( talk) 19:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC) The ref for the first para of text of the subsection is 17 SEXUAL SELECTION AND HUMAN GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION,maybe was not clear that it is the ref to the foregoing assertions made in the para. Overagainst ( talk) 20:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC) Overagainst ( talk) 21:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have further qualified the subsection and it is now made clear the subsection outlines the particular hypothesis of an individual anthropologist and the proposed explaination is not the most accepted one among scientists. However Peter Frost's sexual selection hypothesis is what the skin color review was refering to, therefor it is presented as what it is - a leading sexual selection hypothesis. Overagainst ( talk) 21:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The article needs to be based on reliable secondary sources per WP:PSTS. Here are a few sources that may form a useful foundation for this article
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cite journal}}
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help); Explicit use of et al. in: |last=
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help){{
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help)Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
"Eberhard (1985, 1991) has demonstrated a substantial role for female choice in the evolution of male genitalia. The human penis is a prime example: [...]The size and flexibility of the human penis is more likely the result of female choice than sperm competition because sperm competition generally favors large testicles, as in the small-penised chimpanzee (Baker& Bellis, 1995; Harcourt & Harvey, 1984; G. Parker, 1984; Smith, 1984). But ref 33 Semen Displacement as a Sperm Competition Strategy in Humans contradicts him Overagainst ( talk) 15:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
{{
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help); Explicit use of et al. in: |last=
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help)Yes lack of Sexual Dimorphism is an anomaly for sexual selection, that criticism is given the last word in the section in the ' Criticism ', subsection which ends thus:- "However a leading proponent of the agriculturally caused pigmentation hypothesis maintains that sexual selection can not account for European pigmentation as it would have almost certainly have resulted in the traits of lighter skin, hair and eyes exhibiting strong sexual dimorphism". The criticism subsection has a photo of a very blond man to emphasize the point. Overagainst ( talk) 11:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
"universal features of the human species that may (or are) likely to have emerged by sexual selection" Show me where it says assume the direction and internsity of sexual selection has always and everywhere been the same (which may, or may not, be true). It doesn't, any more than it says 'assume direction and internsity of natural selection has always and everywhere been the same'. Anyway universal features of the human species would leave us with humans at the time of out of Africa which was the last time everyone looked alike . Please note: I was not the one who put the section on penis size in the article and in fact the article originally stated ( as the main Sexual selection article still does) that display of erections by males to females led to sexual selection of penis size. I just gave an alternative view which certain scientists have suggested. Overagainst ( talk) 19:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Skin color, eye color {...} are of perpetual interest but unfortunately theories of sexual selection applied to some of these differences are still speculative. Yes but so are the natural selection ones ( as I point out above a review of the proposed explainations for skin color does not conclude the natural selection one is the only viable theory), are you also objecting to the account of the natural selection explaination for
skin color being given on Wikipedia?
Overagainst (
talk)
20:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
All features of humans are universal features because humans are a species. Sexual selection is just a type of adaptation, and for obvious reasons it is focused on superficial aspects of human anatomy, I can't help that in an article on sexual selection in human evolution these superficial pigmentary traits are going to be included. In a "Natural selection in human evolution" article it would be perfectly OK to discuss skin color. in fact a prestigious paper which I have quoted in the article (reference 5) suggest it is a good way to teach natural selection. "indeed the case for human skin color as a adaptation to UV radiation is so clear an example of the mechanism of evolution by natural selection that it is a perfect model to demonstrate it. Jablonski, N.; Chaplin, G. (2010). "Colloquium paper: human skin pigmentation as an adaptation to UV radiation". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 107"
I am surprised that you think there is a lack of emphasis on sexual dimorphism of human anatomy as the article makes clear it discusses skin color because it is an example of sexual dimorphism of human anatomy . This excessive focus tends to diminish many other important aspects of sexual selection theories. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8962.full. I'm all for you giving other important aspects their correct emphasis no ones objecting to you doing a section on them. But you seem to be talking about deleting certain aspects of the article not adding things. I don't know what you mean by focus - only one thing can be focused on at a time, as wiki articles are a joint effort there are going to be various focuses in the article. Everyone adds their important aspects and the article takes shape. Secondary sources are necessary when things are being stated as facts, Please give examples of something being stated as a fact without a secondary source, I think you'll find it's made clear they are hypotheses as are just about anything that could be in the article or in one about natural selection.
The fact is Darwin thought there had been sexual selection of skin color in some cases Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex That is going to be mentioned in any article on sexual selection, modern hypothesis ( repeat hypotheses) along the same lines also belong in the article. Maybe the stuff about skin color takes up too much space at present and should be edited down a bit but I can't accept that nothing about sexual selection by modern authors or even Darwin, should appear in the article. It is not true that Wikipedia allows only proven theories supported by secondary sources as you seem to be saying . Many things in science are remain open questions as with skin color and this is not an article on skin color but sexual selection. An account of the sexual selection hypothesis is not impermissible as long as it is made clear it is merely one of a number of hypothesis which attempt to account for skin color( and it is not suggested all skin color is due to sexual selection UV radiation is likely for the medium skin color of most of the world according to Manning and Frost.) Here is a secondary and tertiary source for the statement for that human beings are sexually dimorphic in skin tone. Human Evolutionary Biology By Michael P. Muehlenbein (2010) p.204. and its possible relevance for skin color.
An article about sexual selection in human evolution which does not mention Darwin's ideas about sexual selection in human evolution is a travesty. The fact is he did talk about variation in skin color in humans and sexual selection and a closely related modern hypothesis exists. Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex The Heretic in Darwin's Court: The Life of Alfred Russel Wallace By Ross A. Slotten. I have a tertiary source for the statement for that human beings are sexually dimorphic in skin tone. Human Evolutionary Biology By Michael P. Muehlenbein (2010) p.204. and this tertiary source also discusses the possible relevance for skin color.I do have a secondary source ( review of skin color) (ref 23 - Juzeniene, A.; Setlow, R.; Porojnicu, A.; Steindal, A.; Moan, J. (2009). "Development of different human skin colors: a review highlighting photobiological and photobiophysical aspects.". Journal of photochemistry and photobiology. B, Biology 96 (2): 93–100) for the statement that sexual selection is a possible explaination for the evolution of white skin Such a discussion is necessary in the article in my opinion. You are proposing that modern ideas about sexual selection are to be mentioned only if they are about the 'evolution of homo sapiens from the pan-homo split to before the Out of Africa migration. As the environments which are proposed to have been responsible for sexual selection were long after the time modern humans left Africa and some were in Europe I don't see how those aspects of sexual selection can be discussed without covering all human evolution.
As I pointed out about the Dawkins penis size theory virtually nothing is proven in this area or isn't controversial. One that isn't which you suggested above is sexual dimorphism of human anatomy. Basically what features of human biology, features that are universally found in all populations, are most likely to have emerged by sexual selection rather than pure natural selection. Sexual dimorphism comes to mind I have a tertiary source for the statement for that human beings are sexually dimorphic in skin tone. Human Evolutionary Biology By Michael P. Muehlenbein (2010) p.204. and this tertiary source also discusses the possible relevance for sexual selection of skin color among other explainations. I have a secondary source ( review of skin color) (ref 23 - Juzeniene, A.; Setlow, R.; Porojnicu, A.; Steindal, A.; Moan, J. (2009). "Development of different human skin colors: a review highlighting photobiological and photobiophysical aspects.". Journal of photochemistry and photobiology. B, Biology 96 (2): 93–100) for the statement that sexual selection is a possible explaination for the evolution of white skin. I would like to know what (if any) Wikipedia guideline the idea that hypotheses about sexual selection which may have occurred after out of Africa can not be discussed is is drawn from. Overagainst ( talk) 19:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Evolution by SS is going to affect aspects of appearance mainly, in humans that is going to mean that appearance is discussed quite a bit and skin color is very relevant to apearance and is sexually dimorphic. I have no objection to some some judicious pruning of the skin color section. Overagainst ( talk) 09:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
If anyone thinks that that the article misses a lot of important information about sexual selection and overemphasises a marginal subtopic they ought to add the important information which they believe is missing and help balance the article. Overagainst ( talk) 12:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
To start with, we could do with eliminating some or all of the images. The list of images is
These images make the article look quite forumish. At the very least the use of these images borders on original research because I am not aware that these specific images have been used in any of the literature that is cited in the article. The article brings together race, sex and beauty. While these three subjects always fascinate or intrigue, we shouldn't get too carried away with them, and forget what the article is about. The focus should remain on mainstream scientific findings, not on beauty or celebrities. Wapondaponda ( talk) 18:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Naomi Campbell - 'Across a wide range of cultures a female face is seen as attractive ' is the most important image of all IMO. The schizophrenia article is one of the Featured articles, it has an image of John Nash (who is a celebrity) which is not used in the literature that is cited in the article. Therefor using a picture of a woman of diverse ancestry [[[Naomi Campbell]] who is generally regarded as attractive to illustrate the central point that standards of attractiveness are the same across a wide range of cultures is perfectly acceptable. The fact she is a celebrity because she is a top model has the added advantage that no one could deny she is generally regarded as attractive, the accompanying text gives a reference. You are right that this is not about celebrities and but unfortunately it was difficult to find a suitable image of a woman who no one could deny is attractive who is not a celebrity.
Major depressive disorder is one of the Featured articles it has an image of Vincent van Gogh's 1890 painting At Eternity's Gate to illustrate depression. The 'Marilyn Monroe on stage' image is there because it shows a woman with visible markers of mate quality signifying fecundity, "A gynoid pattern of fat distribution, with small waist and large hips (low waist‐to‐hip ratio, or WHR) holds significant fitness benefits for women: women with a low WHR of about 0.7 are more fecund, are less prone to chronic disease, and (in most cultures) are considered more attractive". Waist‐to‐Hip Ratio across Cultures: Trade‐Offs between Androgen‐ and Estrogen‐Dependent Traits. What is being talked about in the text is the difference between signification of fertility by traits like small waist and large hips and the traits which do not signify fertility such as hair color or eye color which it is hypothesized have been selected . The article says "If mate competition is relatively weak, sexual selection focuses primarily on visible markers of mate quality which signify fecundity, as mate competition intensifies the focus will shift from functional to eye-catching novelty rather than biologic 'truth in advertising'". reference [2]. Maybe the point could be made clearer. If you can find an image of a non celebrity woman ( of any ethnicity ) that does the job of the Marilyn Monroe on stage' image then that could replace it, the fact MM is blond or white is not relevant to the point being made. Anyway an image of a woman with a small waist and large hips ( celebrity or not) is hardly out of place in an article such as this.
I have no objections to elimination of the images - San woman, olive green eyes, Long blond hair, or A blond man. Overagainst ( talk) 21:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
There is a reason to use an image of an attractive woman as the point being made is that standards of attractiveness do not vary around the world, this not a tangental point in an article about sexual selection, the only suitable image I found happened to be of a celebrity. Again, there are featured articles which use celebrities' the issue is whether it is relevant to the point that is being made.
I think there is an exact analogy between the Illustration from Darwin showing the Tufted Coquette Lophornis ornatus, and an article on sexual selection in humans showing a human being. If you can think you have a better image to use let's see it. Is it so odd to have a image of a human being in the 'Sexual selection in human evolution' article? (Got to go now, to be cont.) Overagainst ( talk) 13:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes it does if, as is being argued here, Western standards of physical attractiveness are more or less the same as everywhere else. An account of a hypothesis is given in which it is being suggested that people from a wide range of cultures agree about what is attractive, this explains an anomaly for a theory of sexual selection which puzzled Darwin. Darwin thought many differences in appearance were trivial and of no practical use thus probably evolved under sexual rather than natural selection. If the Western standards of attractiveness was different to that in other parts of the world that would explain how sexual selection had resulted in different appearance, ( Darwin was using words that we wouldn't use today obviously) Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex. However Darwin also n later notes that some Europeans who had travelled in the interior of Africa where the natives had not been infuenced by Western standards were convinced that the African ideas of beauty was on the whole similar to that of Westerners, ( and vice versa Europeans agreed with native judgements about native girls) He noted that Africans admired a beard although they did not have full beards. This is an anomaly for if sexual selection is an important factor responsible for the appearance of humans and the standard of attractivenes is much the same around the world how could sexual selection have resulted in humans appearance varying around the world. [10] SEXUAL SELECTION AND HUMAN GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION suggests a way sexual selection could be responsible.
I have to disagree with you - high eyebrows, widely spaced large eyes with dilated pupils, high cheekbones, a small nose, a narrow face with thin cheeks, a large smile, a full lower lip, a small chin, and a full hairstyle. To me the image of Naomi Campbell helps a reader understand what that looks like, that such characteristics are found all around the World, (ie in people of many ancestries) and most importantly that these characteristics are recognised as being attractive in a wide range of cultures. It's not about Naomi Campbell and the image of her can be replaced if you can find a image that does the same job. I'll admit the image of Naomi Campbell is not alongside the relevant part of the article. Marilyn monroe on stage image is not realy important, personally I don't think it is out of place or offensively gratuitous. Overagainst ( talk) 18:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree Trivers is very important Sexual selection and the descent of man: the Darwinian pivot and should be talked about before and given more prominence than the the ideas of Manning and Frost. It is going to be necessary to discuss hypothesis about what are percieved as sexually attractive characterics and why while making it clear there are alternative explainations for those perceptions of course . Here is one -" I find that women are portrayed as having fairer complexions on average than men of the same race. I address possible biological interpretations of this difference and find them wanting. I develop an alternative explanation for the findings and argue that complexion ideals are related to dominant attitudes toward gender roles and to larger cultural meanings given to lightness and darkness. This meaning-based explanation to understanding aesthetics asserts that the dominant meanings of lightness and darkness in our culture are considered more ideally feminine and masculine, respectively. [11]The moral underpinnings of beauty: A meaning-based explanation for light and dark complexions in advertising. Overagainst ( talk) 19:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Well sexual selection of men is discussed quite extensively. there could be an image of Will Smith, he is mentioned. I find it difficult to believe it's really true that you can't see the relevance of the picture of Naomi Campbell to illustrating what is considered attractive across a range of cultures. And yet again I'll repeat that featured articles make use of images of humans including celebrities to illustrate the featured articles in a far more 'tangential' way than the use of the image of Cambell is, I've given examples above. Featured articles are there to serve as a guide you know! Overagainst ( talk) 13:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
The last part about glans ridge as sperm displacement must have a reference!
Well, I kind of doubt that the evolution was indeed towards "larger size". Google images shows quite a range of penis sizes :-) Where was this suggestion made? Kaligelos ( talk) 19:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is still bizarrely focused on skin color. It was so bizarre that I came to this page figuring there must be some discussion. Why is there a paragraph on skin color in the intro? In the section "Darwin and more recent hypotheses" the only "more recent" theory is one about skin color. Why is the section on "Direction and intensity of sexual selection" so focused on skin color? Likewise the "criticism" section is mostly about skin color. I have no objection to the skin color stuff being here but why not have a separate header for "skin color and other pigmentation" so it is at least frank, and so the holes are more clear? That is my suggestion -- a section for "skin color and other pigmentation" at the same level as "sexual dimorphism" and moving the paragraph from the intro, and other sections, into that section. Jytdog ( talk) 16:25, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Further on this, it seems that the entire section on "Direction and intensity of sexual selection" says nothing about this in general and is solely focused on reprising Peter Frost's theory on why European women (and thus Europeans) have diversity in pigmentation (he seems to believe that Europeans have more pigment diversity than other peoples -- is this even true?) In any case I suggest eliminating this section it is not what it says it is. I would like to move this long explanation to the article on Frost, and editing down a brief paragraph on Frost's ideas about pigmentation and putting it in to the section on sexual dimorphism in this article. Let me know your thoughts! Jytdog ( talk) 16:45, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Before slapping on a POV tag, please identify some text in the article that is a problem, and briefly say why. What text is part of a controversial racist theory? It's alright for a hypothesis to be wrong—that doesn't make it racist, and there are reputable views that sexual selection was a strong force in at least some cases (although I think everyone agrees with the comments above about the origin of dark skin). For example, here is a view from Jared Diamond which includes opinions on inhabitants of Tasmania. Johnuniq ( talk) 02:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
I've tagged the Genital mutilation section for POV as it deals with a single academician's views on the matter. If we're unable to find further sources on it, it's probably given undue weight within the article as a whole. Finnusertop ( talk | guestbook | contribs) 19:09, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
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Romantic selection in humans redirect here, but romance and sexuality are not the same.
"Forty-four (10.6%) participants reported discordant sexual and romantic orientations."
Benjamin ( talk) 22:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
What evidence is there for humans contemplating - consciously, subconsciously or unconsciously - the reproductive success of their successors? Let alone the contemplation of any factor that may influence that. I don't think people do. Not at all. Does any organism? I think humans are totally preoccupied solely with their own self-satisfaction when choosing a mate; nothing else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.151.210.84 ( talk) 05:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)