This contains material from April 16-19.
Does anyone else we should have a disclaimer on this page.. something like
Rankun 02:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Christ. This is so cheesy. "United we stand" ... Are you American?
not realy 70.20.232.243 04:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
No, people who find mass murders cool will see it as glorifying regardless. Zeck 12:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, I think we should have a disclaimer
I disagree. Strongly. If this article needs a disclaimer, it should be deleted. Whiskey in the Jar 14:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ubergenius
Part of Wikipedia policy is not to use disclaimers, except for spoiler tags. There used to be disclaimer templates, but they were removed by consensus, stating that they would cause more trouble than they would prevent. Example: who decides what does and doesn't need a disclaimer? This has been discussed before, no disclaimer is necessary.
J0lt C0la
16:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I certainly agree with the sentiment of the original post, such a disclaimer is inappropriate here. If not, consider the many other articles that would likewise merit the same: Charles Whitman, Martin Bryant, Woo Bum-Kon, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Andrew Kehoe, etc., not to mention assassins and serial killers. I agree with the statement that Wikipedia must set forth the facts, nothing more. Besides, there are no words that we could publish that would dissuade those inclined to such behavior. pointlessforest 18:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This reminds me heavily of the "Hitler was a great man" statement. It's true, and if anyone wants to misunderstand it as praise, that's their own fault. Wikipedia does not need a disclaimers. WP:NOT#SORRY. -- Phoeba Wright OBJECTION! 18:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Why has none of the media pointed out the shiny "magic triangle" that is clearly visible on the murderer's forehead in his student photo? This triangle has occult significance and may indicate a connection (real or fictional) to South Korean militant extremists like Seoul Freemasonry. I understand that Wikipedia articles are not a place for speculation on such connections before they are established by official sources, but I hope that the alternative media (blogosphere) will get to work on this important issue---just as soon as the day's quizzes, party photos, political flaming, pseudo-science, and general wannabe-preening are posted. Thanks! 69.250.43.106 00:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I suspect it's a bibilical reference--Genesis 16:12: "And he shall be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him".-- Pvednes 08:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Just speculation, but it appears that his writings suggest he disliked wealthy people. Perhaps the 'Ax' has an inference to Armani AX that has high priced clothing. Koreans are known for coveting luxury goods and designer names. Maybe he had some disdain for the fact?
The tortured English major desired to commit "Malice acts." An intense hatred, inverted and covert found sinister expression in acts of random violence. Written in red, the words became speech acts 70.245.112.93 04:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)poyner 17 April 2007
Just speculating: Ismail (Islamic spelling as opposed to Jewish spelling - Ishmael) was the son of Ibrahim/Abraham. Ismail was known as the father of all Arabs. Ax refers to a weapon. As this was tattoed on his arm, it could mean that he saw himself as the instrument or the vindicator of the Arabs - his arm being the weapon of destruction on behalf of the father of the Arabs, Ismail/Ishmael
How about he played Lineage II like most other Koreans and his in game alias is Ismail Ax, I like my speculation the best. -- 67.8.139.92 21:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sotero M: Look up "Isma'il ibn Jafar" there is a section in the wikipedia page about Ish'mail Axe. That may be a link to the shooter. Personally, i think it is.
In James Fennimore Cooper’s story “The Prairie,” the settler Ishmael Bush, who is attempting to escape from civilization, sets out across the prairie with two key tools, a gun and an axe. Each has a symbolic meaning. The axe — which can either kill or provide shelter — stands for both creation and destruction. Could be a possible explanation for why this English major had it scrawled on his arm. Obviously it is speculation, and unless we develop a section for possible explanations for the statement (which I know isn't happening), I'm not going to include it myself. Bluefield 22:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This might be of interest. there is the "Asian Network" on tv called "AZN". There are the AX awards there for asian actors/actresses. It stands for "Asian Excellence". I figure this MAY be a link. - Joetheguy 23:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What about this passage for the meaning behind the tattoo:
In the history of mankind, Ibrahim was the great rebel who opposed idolatry and established monotheism in this world. Although physically tired of sufferings, the prophet of responsibility and leadership had a sharp mind. His heart was full of love yet he carried an axe in his hand! Faith shined from the center of Kofr. A clear fountain of tawheed, monotheism, emerged from the sewage of polytheism!
The first to fight idolatry, Ibrahim was raised in the house of Azar who used to make the idols for his tribe. Ibrahim fought not only against idolatry and Nimrod' but also against ignorance and oppression. The leader of this movement, he was riotous against abjectness. He was the source of hope and wishes, the man of faith and the founder of true unity.
Ibrahim, enter the fire - the fire of oppression and ignorance! Help prevent the people from being burned by the fire of oppression and ignorance! The same fire is ignited in the fate and future of every responsible individual who is indebted to enlightenment and guidance. For those who behave like Ibrahim, Allah will make a rose garden from the fire of Nimrods! You will not burn and leave behind your ashes. It is a symbolic demonstration of how close you get to the "fire" during your struggle and performance of Jihad. To throw yourself into the fire in order to save other people is a bitter experience, but even more painful is the Shahadat.
Ibrahim, sacrifice your son Ismail! Cut his throat with your own hands to save the people's neck from being cut. Which people? Those who have been sacrificed at the steps of the palaces of power or near the plunderer's treasures or inside the temples of hypocrisy and misery! To get courage to seize the sword from the hand of the executioner, cut Ismail's throat with a knife! Allah (Ibrahim's God) will pay Ismail's ransom. You do not kill your son nor lose him! This gesture is a lesson for the sake of your faith. You must reach the point of your willingness to sacrifice your most beloved (Ismail) with your own hands.
Source of this is http://www.al-islam.org/hajj/shariati/14.htm. Just a thought to consider I suppose.
You know what i would have done if i was a disgruntled student bent on destruction and causing as much pain to the world as i could. I would scrible something criptic yet entirely meaningless on my arm so that people for years to come would spend hours debating its significance.
Jack Thompson claims video games are common among these things. Any info if Seung Hui played? Video of Mr Thompson talking about this shooting on Fox news here: http://kotaku.com/gaming/jack-thompson/
Going by the information we know about him I'd guess the game he really played was StarCraft. Now I don't see how this leads to violence but imagine if he wasn't good at StarCraft. He'd be singled out, made fun of. How could he possibly go on losing to Zerg Rushes? Now this is my theory, which I wil lbe sending to Jack Thompson, he lost a StarCraft tournament and went to avenge the Terrans. Jack Thompson, I support you and your idiotic, unintelligent accusations upon the video game industry and so I dedicate this to you. Because of you the gamers of today look good, while you look like a senile old fool that even a nursing home wouldn't want. SonnyCorleone 20:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Fuck u Jack Thompson, Fuck u Fox News, Fuck u Joe Lieberman, video games are NOT real and have ZERO effect on what you do in real life and does not give u a reason to shoot innocent people just because of GTA. Its about time the parents and teachers take some fuckin responsibility for a change.
Games can teach you how to point and pull the trigger, but no way does it emulate realistic kickback or trajectory, and let's not forget reloading. He knew what he was doing, way beyond the aid of video games. -- Palf91 00:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I dont think video games will make a person a better shooter. I do play games a lot (have even played duck hunt, wild gunmen, and other games that involve holding an electronic gun). Although i do well in shooting and many other games, i am a very poor shooter with real guns (i can barely make a 20% accuracy shooting a beer can at 10 feet away). I really think that games are just games and as a stepping stone to real life, a game is a very poor teacher. Also, video games (regardless of violence) does not necessarily make a person a mass murderer. If video games were to foster violence and make a gamer a murderer later, perhaps we could have like a school shooting every week. the only reason i think that video games came to the spotlight as a tool that makes people violent and murderous is because people see it that way. Morever, i am yet to find a "well constrcuted" study to prove that games do make people violent. Because of this, whatever jack tompson or other anti-gaming advocates say about games, their views are no better than a layperson's speculation.
How about something on the page regarding the note he posted http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/chi-070417vtech-shootings,0,4843160.story
Here is another picture of Cho from the VT website: http://198.82.160.236/tragedy/images/cho.jpg.
If the NY Times is not a reliable source, who is? // THF 13:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm seeing more information at his profile at CNN.com: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/cho.profile/index.html -- Esprix 18:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In light of the recent events, is the crime-related stub picture really appropriate? 136.165.46.150 13:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
ABCnews.com [2] has "the official" picture of Cho Seung-hui. Since I'm kinda new here, I'll let more knowledgeable folks decide if it should go up. -- Semiautomata 14:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The picture referenced above was not about Cho Seung-hui. It was a picture which appears on "crime stubs". Unfortunately the picture depicted something that would have upset people given the circumstances. We asked that it be removed and our request was graciously honored. -- Witchzilla 19:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
His name is most likely 趙承輝
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=%E8%B6%99%E6%89%BF%E8%BC%9D&btnG=Google+Search
Wikikin 19:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hangul | Hanja | Revised | MR | Popular spellings |
---|---|---|---|---|
조승희 | 趙 or 曺 | Jo | Cho | Cho Seung Hee or Cho Seung Hui |
I think I'd actually trust an Asian before a journalist in this case, even if they were many. :-) Seriously, one problem with this is if e.g. a large agency like AP get it wrong and the story gets more or less copied a lot, a mistake could spread, although that's just a thought. -- Northgrove 14:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes it was lame (a comment I made before the re-merging). Once again I apologize. ( → Netscott) 19:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
even south korean newspapers do not correctly identifiy the suspect's name, they either use 조승희 or 조승휘. Janviermichelle 15:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Without a doubt 휘 is used in masculine Korean names and was common in the era when he was born. 승희 is more of a feminine name, though I have seen males with that given name. A female example is Lee 승희, a female model from the US known for her large breasts and scantily clad photos. Eventually we will find his accurate name.
Is there any evidence he actually still used the asian convention of last name first? I understand cultural sensitivity and all that, but he was, to some degree, an American. Did he still put his last name first? Titanium Dragon 01:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
He wrote his own name Seung Cho, but I assume Wikipedia is the actual expert on how Asians write their names?
Until we have exact birth date, format should follow guidelines at WP:Date section 1.9. Use c. 1982. Ronnotel 13:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
January 18, 1984 http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2007/04/norris_hall_shooter_identified.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=%22Cho+Seung-Hui%22&btnG=Search
It appears there's no mention whatsoever of this person on the 'net, by their full name. So much for the Facebook hunting people had done. -- Zanimum 13:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What does resident alien mean? Does this mean he had permanent residency in the US (green card I believe you call it in the US). Or simply that he was legally resident in the US, i.e. could have been there on a student permit, tourist permit or work permit (both the later seem unlikely of course since he was a student). Nil Einne 13:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
You know, this whole collaborative writing process is going to be very slow if no one can edit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.104.66.1 ( talk) 13:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
How did this guy find a gun? Doesn't it take years of training and background checks to get one? He was just a kid and had only been in the country for school. Something doesn't make sense here.
I hope this isn't an argument against gun control. "You" may know a guy who can get you a gun illegally, but I doubt this foreign-exchange student would know where to get one. It is sick that this guy can just walk into a store and buy a gun. Bunbury18 14:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Blogs (ie. hotair.com) suggest the guns wwere bought here: http://www.roanokefirearms.com/ because the owner posted the name "Cho" on the black-rifles discussion board April 16, long before the ID was publicly known. The poster also claimed ATF told him the receipt was found on the shooter which was also confirmed by officials today. (CraigM)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701083.html has an interview with the owner of the gun shop. It includes "It was a very unremarkable sale," said Markell, who did not handle the sale personally. "He was a nice, clean-cut college kid. We won't sell a gun if we have any idea at all that a purchase is suspicious." I would consider that worthy of entry into the article. Jersey72 21:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't bother me enormously, but is there any need for the last sentence saying "According to a press conference on April 17, officials identified Cho as being 23 years old." ? I mean, when I read it I felt as though it doesn't flow well with the rest of the article, as in it looks really weird to have it there and worded thus, and is also kind of redundant since we know his date of birth and death anyway. F. Delpierre 14:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I considered purchasing it because, well, I'm an opportunist, but it already redirects to Virginia Tech. Quick! Thomasmallen 14:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm a big fan of US spellings for US topics (and British for British topics) but for crying out loud the Virginia city is spelled CENTREVILLE. Stop changing it to "Centerville." Moncrief 14:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
4000 articles say Centreville. Why are we going with the one that has it wrong? Centreville is in Fairfax County. The shooter is from Fairfax County. THF 14:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we CALM down please? Lets come to a consensus on the name without edit waring? MrMacMan Talk 14:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
There may BE a Centerville, but this guy was from CENTREVILLE, a Washington suburb, per the Washington Post. Moncrief 15:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that our esteemed colleagues have found a source that says Centreville, instead of fighting over one that says Centerville (Which does exist, but apparently you didn't bother to find out), the fight is over. -- Golbez 15:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's all calm down about this. BOTH cities exist. For confirmation, see here: [8] and here: [9]. Different media outlets are claiming that each city are his city of residence. For confirmation, see the posted MSNBC article (CenTERville), and the posted Washington Post article (CenTREville.) Until this is resolved, the wiki article should reflect the ongoing confusion in this rapidly developing story. I will now edit article to reflect the discrepancies in sources and acknowledge that either may be the case. Elambeth 15:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I let myself get way too heated. Sigh. This is a stressful time. I apologize. -- Golbez 15:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
He went to Tree Elementary School, for 4th and 5th grade and went by "Seung Cho" (or so the yearbook says). I believe for 6th grade, he went to Brookfield, and then Stone Middle School prior to attending Westfield HS. Gonnadunk 18:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This is incorrect. According to http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/schoolprofile/profile.cfm?profile_id=240 Westfield High School did not open until 2000. A high school graduate of 2003 began his high school career in 1999. He attended Centreville High his freshman year after Stone Middle School. I had a class with him, but don't know how we could find verification 129.59.32.17 13:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it could be the cause, but it appears that Cho received a speeding ticket last week. To verify, go to the Virginia General District Court Case Information System and select "Montgomery County General District/Blacksburg", then on the next page select "Traffic," and then search for "cho, seung". -- Ryanaxp 15:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I see corroboration for this at CCN: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/cho.profile/index.html Esprix 18:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It's probably of no relevance to the shooting whatsoever, but CNN is mentioning his court record showing that he was recently busted for speeding, and had a court case coming up.
"Court records obtained by the AP show Cho got a speeding ticket from Virginia Tech police on April 7. He was cited for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, the AP reported, with a court date set for May 23." [10]
Worth mentioning? Bueller 007 21:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Um, most people don't go on a murderous rampage after getting a speeding ticket. But, I do see your point. Though, it's kind of petty, I mean linking a speeding ticket which is not a real "crime" in the sense that it stays with you on your record for life to this would seem a bit like original research and not encyclopaedic. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It's really impossible to say if it's relevant or not at this point. I think we should err on the side of strongly-sourced inclusiveness while this is still a current event. Bartleby 14:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
With MySpace being so popular is it known if he had a MySpace page or not? 71.71.254.71 20:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC) —
Bold text I agree any webpages or internet activity do matters. As some people reffer to alcohol and drugs to keep away, others do creative writing. Remember people talk about his plays in his English class maybe he did share something online. Some of this loners use the internet to socialize not always in a positive way, they are known as the haters in chatrooms and blogs. I do believe his writing was a crying for attention and if they had the same sexual abuse history on them, that makes it a sign!
I found the myspace page of Emily Hilsch's roomate. Is that relevant?
Joetheguy
23:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It says he's lonely. So he's probably an emo. which means yes, he has a Myspace page.
H2P (
Yell at me for
what I've done)
00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Probably an emo? Suddenly everyone who is lonely is an emo.
For us older people, WHAT is emo? 141.156.166.127 06:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Allll right.
http://www.myspace.com/seunghuicho
I think that's a fake myspace account or something. Signup was April 17.
Yes, that is fake. They used information from this article or other sources. Nothing original. And the hometown is misspelled. 75.84.142.45 05:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=question+mark+man&n=-1&k=10008
As a reference with all discussions video for factual events is always warranted with that being said, why was the video that is posted on Youtube deleted as a reference? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNrBd4kKMg AcePuppy 15:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
IANAL, but every created work is automatically the copyright of its creator. The video was made by Jamal Albarghouti, so he is the creator and owner of the copyright to the video. Mr. Albarghouti then uploaded the file to CNN I-Report. The small print there states,
you hereby grant to CNN and its affiliates a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide license to edit, telecast, rerun, reproduce, use, syndicate, license, print, sublicense, distribute and otherwise exhibit the materials you submit, or any portion thereof, as incorporated in any of their programming or the promotion thereof, in any manner and in any medium or forum, whether now known or hereafter devised, without payment to you or any third party.
So Mr. Albarghouti, maybe without realizing it, signed away most of his rights to his work, which is why so many news broadcasts prominently have the CNN logo, but not Mr. Albarghouti's name. Albarghouti and maybe CNN have the ability to give permission to use the video to third parties. If you don't have that permission, you can't use the video without stepping on someone's copyright. There's always hope that Mr. Albarghouti will license his video under a free license that can be uploaded onto Wikipedia, but in the meantime links to copies of the video that do not appear to originate either from the owner or CNN should be removed. - Banyan Tree 03:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
We should merge this stub article with the main Virginia Tech massacre article. The shooter has no notoraity except for his crime of mass murder, which is told in the main article. Mytwocents 15:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
He certainly passes WP:N, and I'm sure dozens of articles are going to be written on him in the coming weeks that will allow expansion of this article. Don't merge. -- Falcorian (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
We should not repeat the romanisation information. We should remove the romanisation infobox or the info in the text. Let's not be repetitive. Please check other articles about Koreans. One way or the other, not both please. Mumun 無文 15:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the current event tag - IF he "recently died" this is obviously a current event, IE this is tautological. David Spart ( talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) 15:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I just read in a discussion forum that it had something to do with his girlfriend, with sounds pretty pathetic to commit his acts. Anyone find anything else? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.188.204.2 ( talk) 15:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
There needs to be investigation into the plays that he wrote, Richard McBeef and Mr. Brownstone. These are show very clear signs that he may have been molested or raped. Very likely a victim of pedophilia. In both of his plays he talks about molestation, pedophilia, and violence..in a very emotional manner.
From Richard McBeef
(Richard gently rests him hand on John's lap.) JOHN What the hell are you doing! (John slaps Richards's hand.) What are you, a Catholic priest! I will not be molested by an aging balding overweight pedophilic stepdad named Dick! Get your hands off me you sicko! Damn you, you Catholic priest....
SUE ..Some stepfather! JOHN He tried to touch my privates!
SUE...Are you a bisexual psycho rapist murderer! Please stop following me. Don't kill me! (She rows wrenches and pipes lying on the ground at him, but he is unhurt.) RICHARD Let me explain! John is a rambunctious pubescent boy! SUE Oh my god! You are a pedophile!
JOHN I hate him. Must kill Dick. Must kill Dick... That fat man murder dad...And he molested me.
From Mr. Brownstone
JOE He a--rapped probably half of the kids in the class. JOHN I want to kill him. JANE I wanna watch him bleed like the way he made us kids bleed.
This really needs to be investigated not only by wikipedia posters, but by the news. So far these plays have been read and talked about; I cant believe no one has put two and two together. Also his parent, there has been no mention of them…
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/franklincoverupexcerpt.shtml
76.80.166.98 07:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)jeit
Most victims of sexual abuse tend to grow up to be loners and seperated from society, trying desperatly to keep thier secret and shame to themselves. If you have no friends, establish no relationships and keep everyone at a distance, no one will ever know. His signing his name as a question mark speaks alot as well. Either he wanted to show off that no one knew him, and therefor no one could know his secret, or that he himself had no idea who he was because of some trauma from being abused or molested. Perhaps the emotional turmoil of keeping this shame to himself finaly reached a boiling point. The "Stupid Rich Kids" were too distracted to pick up on the subtle clues and hints he left, so in a final act of desperation, he vented his demons to free himself of his shame and rage.
Again, this is only speculation. CireDark 18:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The guy(the shooter) is not a 'foriegn exchange kid". He has stayed in the us for 14 years - most of the people who come to the US at a small age blend very well into the society. PLEASE DISPEL ANY THOUGHTS WHICH MAKES HIM A GUY WHO CAME HERE JUST FOR SCHOOL OR SOMETHING STUPID LIKE THAT! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sumanthsagar ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
"According to the Washington Post, his parents live in Fairfax County, an affluent suburb of Washington DC, just outside Arlington and Alexandria."...This is incorrect, Fairfax County borders Arlington county and the City of Alexandria. I also came across a source (Fox, I believe) stating that Centreville is in Eastern Virginia, near Williamsburg! Thomasmallen 16:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
MrMacMan, what on earth was wrong with that? I was trying to make it following more the guidelines on biographical articles. -- MoRsE 16:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone create a redirect at 조승희 to this article? 132.205.44.134 16:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
CNN has a new photo from the Department of Homeland Security... 132.205.44.134 16:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
CNN announced that Cho, two victims and an unrelated shooter came from Westfield high. The unrelated shooter earlier this month killed two cops. Or atleast I think that's what CNN said. 132.205.44.134 16:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This is probably splitting hairs at the worst possible time, but was he an English language major, or English literature major (or perhaps even something else)? I know all links on here right now seem to be pointing to English language, but every news source I've seen is pretty ambiguous. 132.170.29.48 17:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to talk about his family? They are innocent and people shouldn't associate him with his family - or even ruin his family's business. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.111.231.185 ( talk) 17:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
For Christ's sake, remove the family's address, don't you think they're having enough trouble right now? Who thought putting the address in the article was even a remotely reasonable thing to do?
Can I ask why it's necessary or useful to include the info about his parents' dry-cleaning business and his sister's college? How is that in any way relevant? Cerebus19 00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Admin, please add interwiki: pl:Cho Seung-hui and ru:Чо Сеунг-хуи. Bocianski 17:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
How is this at all notable? There's no reason we should expect him to participate in such activities. Seems racist to think he'd "stick to his own kind". Titanium Dragon 17:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, what people should draw from these facts isnt the issue. The issue is that the fact that he wasnt involved in the korean club isnt worth mentioning, it's missleading and unnecessary.
I think posting his parents' home address is very inappropriate. They need their privacy during this time as well, and someone in law school I know says there's all sorts of liability for Wikipedia if that stays. 69.234.216.51 17:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Those who argue that Cho was an "American" by virtue of his mere presence in the US are wrong. Using their logic, Mohammed Atta was an Arab-American. Jameswchen 06:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The rationale for removing this category that I've seen in the edit summaries is specious: that he wasn't a US citizen. Why does one need to be a US citizen and not a US permanent resident who has been living in the US since the age of 8 to be considered "American"? Here was an English major, someone who was living in this country from the age of 8, but because he didn't yet have a US passport he can't be considered American. I think this is absurd reasoning, frankly. The concept of "Asian American" has more to do with identification than citizenship, and if you disagree, please cite some evidence for your point of view.
If you disagree with this, I assume you'll back me up if I go through every European American category and delete those people in said categories who never obtained US citizenship but lived in the US for any number of years. Moncrief 18:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
No Passport, no citizenship. If your not an american citizen, your not American.
Xenophobia, pure and simple. Atleast this man was not a muslim, or had come from a muslim state 15 years ago. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's a thought. If the Korean/Asian American label is about identification rather than citizenship, then whose identification?
I know people that have lived in America for decades and take pride in the fact that they're not American. Mayorcheese 00:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
i wonder why he was in the states for 15yrs and didnt apply for citizenship. people are eligible after 5 yrs of permanent residency
Cho was a South Korean citizen who held "Permanent Resident" status in the US. That does not make him an American, an Asian-American or even a Korean-American. He could not legally vote in the US, nor was he ever eligible to hold a US Passport. Hence, he was not an American.
I suspect that some people want Cho to be categorized as an "American" in order to make a political point about "those violent Americans". Get over it. Cho was not an American citizen. Period. Jameswchen 01:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright -- I believe that being an 'American' doesn't mean you have citizenship. If we look at some fellow Asian Americans we come across NFL player Eric Kimble (born in Korea, moved to US -- no mention of citizenship), nobel prize winning physicist Tsung-Dao Lee (born in china, no mention of citizenship), LPGA golfer Grace Park (golfer), pornstar Lucy Lee (Korean) (born in korea, no mention of citizenship). animator Peter Chung, olympic medalist Toby Dawson (born in korea). I could continue, but I feel this is enough to establish a pattern here. What do we think? MrMacMan Talk 05:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, let me say that I disagree with the whole Asian American tag being used for cultural reasons (presumption abounds when defining someone else's culture), like EECavazos seems to be getting at. I tried to make a supported argument for this, but I realized I couldn't because, according to Asian_Americans#Terminology (see the last paragraph in the Terminology section) "Asian American" *can* mean anybody who could be counted as such by the US census, which does not rely on citizenship for its count (according to the article I cited) but only physical presence in the US and ethnic background. On that basis, the tag "Asian American" for Cho stands, although I'd be happy to stop at the more precise and less connotative "Korean immigrants to the United States" tag, which gets the same job done but with less room, in my eyes, for controversy (but even me suggesting this is probably, in fact, controversial). Nonetheless, using the Wikipedia definition says it's okay to label this individual as "Asian American." It seems to me that Wikipedia has spoken, and it's in conflict with my gut; however, I don't outweigh Wikipedia and I'm willing to leave the cultural debate about the appropriateness of calling this person "Asian American" to a venue other than this Wikipedia page. EECavazos, et al., could you go along with this line of reasoning? Insignificant1 07:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
An "American" is a state of mind, not defined by a certain document. His lifestyle was that of an American. Thank you.
I think it's fair to say Mr. Cho was a product of American educational/cultural systems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnyjH5wusqs
Please be careful in deleting footnotes that are named: someone deleted the first Newsday footnote, and now two other footnotes have been blanked as a result. THF 18:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is English Wikipedia following Korean norms by having this person's last name first? ( → Netscott) 18:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This should be put back to Cho Seung-hui. Korean names are last name first, and the MSM outlets are all using Cho Seung-hui. --
Scientz
I've fully move-protected the article, after Angr untangled the mess made by a bunch of page moves. If there's any need to move the page, request unprotection. -- Slowking Man 19:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I've taken this out of the article because of WP:SYN. WP:NOR prohibits citing to sources to draw conclusions or do analysis not available in reliable sources discussing the subject of the article. THF 18:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, our murderer wrote a play: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html
The thing I find most disturbing about his plays is that a reputable University would actually accept a person with his standard of writing onto an English course. I would never have passed High School had I written like that -- JamesTheNumberless 10:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The info is relevant. I think it should be in the motive section . But 1st it NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. _ Lilkunta 19:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Will whoever keeps deleting this hold off for ten seconds so that I can put the citation in, please? The attribution has been made by multiple news sources, including MSNBC at 3:45 pm ET this date. -- Lisasmall 20:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The info is relevant. I think it should be in the motive section . But 1st it NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. _ Lilkunta 19:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The Writings section, and any relevant information elsewhere needs to be cleaned up. According to a classmate, Cho was in the Playwriting class "last fall" (
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/). According to VT's website, the class was taught by Falco, not Roy (
http://www.english.vt.edu/ug/Fall%202006.pdf)
Is it really necessary to link to the second Korean mass-murderer? Other than being a Korean killer, what connection is there between these two individuals? Links to the Columbine killers are not present, so why would this be linked? Bluefield 19:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Isocyanide 20:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC) • contribs) 19:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
You guys are talking about how they "set records" like it is an Olympic competition or something. Why not link to the article about Shoko Asahara while we are at it? He is an Asian killer. Why not establish who the most prolific killer is in every country in the world and a "See Also" link to them as well? The inclusion of Bum-Kon in this article is unnecessary and there is no reason to relate this kid to a Korean soldier. And the link to the Columbine killers is only through a link to all school shootings, then through the link to Columbine, while Bum-Kon gets a direct link? Totally inconsistent. Bluefield 20:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
There are more differences than similarities between the two. One gained access to weapons from a military depot, one from a gun shop. One was upset that he didn't have enough money to marry his live-in girlfriend, the other apparently had a dispute with his girlfriend. One killed people in two separate rural villages in Korea, the other targeted his own university. The fact that they are both prolific Korean killers is not noteworthy at all. The linking of U.S. spree killings is appropriate because this act occurred in America. We don't need to look for spurious connections between Seung-hui and any other person in the world just to build up the "See Also" section of the page. Bluefield 20:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like a racism to me, it seems that including Bum-kon implies that South Koreans are prone to be spree killers, which is not. Janviermichelle 20:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The article says he shot himself (in the head?). Do we know which gun he used on himself? Ikilled007 20:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In the picture featured in the article, Who is the other person next to Cho wearing the mask? Wikidudeman (talk) 03:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I have long believed that when a person is "diagnosed" with a potentially dangerous mental disorder, his name should be entered into a national database to avoid selling that person any kind of firearm by legal means. Also, this would help authorities track people with mental problems who have tried to purchase guns in the future, and keep and eye on them. This law should also state that ANY person who is in the database is found to have a firearm in their possession they should be treated the same way as a felon in possession of a firearm. t would be up to congress to pass a law restricting gun sales to mentally unbalanced people, and to carefully choose what kinds of mental problems would fall into that category, because if the law states that ANY mental disorder is grounds for rejection of a gun sale, then 300 million americans would most likely lose their right to own guns. I don't think this tragedy could have been avoided other than by this guy's own reasoning. The way he rants on the videos shows total disgust with others and the determination to follow through, so a gun law to this effect may have done little to prevent this from happening, but maybe he would have been tracked by police once he tried to purchase the guns. I know that there are probably a million reasons why the government can't use medical histories of citizens for these kinds of purposes, but right now, I know of a good one why they should.
Gun control is a scapegoat. There are plenty of guns throughout the world, and are used responsibly. The problem is America. http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html
As it turns out, there is a law prohibiting the diagnosed with mental problems from purchasing guns, but apparently, this person fell through the cracks... FyT 23:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the McBeef story reflects how he viewed other people's power over him, and him not being able to respond as "normal" people do. (I say "normal" as a means to differentiate his mental state from those around him.) I see a frustration in his video, and writings of a person who felt was always made the scapegoat, or punching bag for the more astute people around him. I believe he was channeling what he felt through McBeef's frustration at the fact he wasnt doing anything but other people simply blamed him out of spite, fear, anger, or plain childish bullying, and in the end was made to look like a reject in his own eyes, or one that always brought problems, and therefore people avoided him, or were mean to him. What the kid did to McBeef in his story is basically what he believed was being done to him, nad I think he wanted to be that kid, if only once he could feel that power over someone else, were he could do anything to others without consequence to himself. The final part when McBeef strikes the kid out of "desecrated hurt and anger" was what he felt was happening to himself. In reality I think the story really talks about McBeef being himself, the kid is those who made fun of him and terrorized, hurt, or otherwise made him into the punching bag because of his condition, looks or whatever it was, and the mother is society who automatically blamed him for whatever others claimed, or did. The story about him stalking two girls may be another pointer, maybe he meant no harm to the girls he supposedly stalked, no charges were ever brought against him for stalking, so I have to assume the situation was borderline if anything, if thats the case, he must have felt rejected on a monumental scale. At least in my eyes, stalkers are amongst the lowest types in society. Now, a lot of people are vilifying this guy for what he did, some call him evil, some a monster, even a lunatic. But McBeef looks like the victim in the story, and I believe 99% of people who read that story thought that the kid had it coming, or at least would not punish McBeef for his action, because we all read how the kid brought him to a point of no return, and the mother sided with the kid immediately without thought to McBeef's claims, and this I think, is the missing link in this tragedy.
Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do to turn back time, and we can't arrest someone simply for writing these things, because if we do, then people like Quentin Tarrantino, or Stephen king would be committed to a mental hospital for life, but we can learn to better understand people in his situation and get them real help before they go all out and commit this kind of atrocious crimes... FyT 19:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Seung-Hui Cho/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
*4 images, 86 citations. Smee 20:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC). |
Last edited at 20:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:25, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
This contains material from April 16-19.
Does anyone else we should have a disclaimer on this page.. something like
Rankun 02:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Christ. This is so cheesy. "United we stand" ... Are you American?
not realy 70.20.232.243 04:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
No, people who find mass murders cool will see it as glorifying regardless. Zeck 12:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, I think we should have a disclaimer
I disagree. Strongly. If this article needs a disclaimer, it should be deleted. Whiskey in the Jar 14:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ubergenius
Part of Wikipedia policy is not to use disclaimers, except for spoiler tags. There used to be disclaimer templates, but they were removed by consensus, stating that they would cause more trouble than they would prevent. Example: who decides what does and doesn't need a disclaimer? This has been discussed before, no disclaimer is necessary.
J0lt C0la
16:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I certainly agree with the sentiment of the original post, such a disclaimer is inappropriate here. If not, consider the many other articles that would likewise merit the same: Charles Whitman, Martin Bryant, Woo Bum-Kon, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Andrew Kehoe, etc., not to mention assassins and serial killers. I agree with the statement that Wikipedia must set forth the facts, nothing more. Besides, there are no words that we could publish that would dissuade those inclined to such behavior. pointlessforest 18:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This reminds me heavily of the "Hitler was a great man" statement. It's true, and if anyone wants to misunderstand it as praise, that's their own fault. Wikipedia does not need a disclaimers. WP:NOT#SORRY. -- Phoeba Wright OBJECTION! 18:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Why has none of the media pointed out the shiny "magic triangle" that is clearly visible on the murderer's forehead in his student photo? This triangle has occult significance and may indicate a connection (real or fictional) to South Korean militant extremists like Seoul Freemasonry. I understand that Wikipedia articles are not a place for speculation on such connections before they are established by official sources, but I hope that the alternative media (blogosphere) will get to work on this important issue---just as soon as the day's quizzes, party photos, political flaming, pseudo-science, and general wannabe-preening are posted. Thanks! 69.250.43.106 00:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I suspect it's a bibilical reference--Genesis 16:12: "And he shall be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him".-- Pvednes 08:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Just speculation, but it appears that his writings suggest he disliked wealthy people. Perhaps the 'Ax' has an inference to Armani AX that has high priced clothing. Koreans are known for coveting luxury goods and designer names. Maybe he had some disdain for the fact?
The tortured English major desired to commit "Malice acts." An intense hatred, inverted and covert found sinister expression in acts of random violence. Written in red, the words became speech acts 70.245.112.93 04:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)poyner 17 April 2007
Just speculating: Ismail (Islamic spelling as opposed to Jewish spelling - Ishmael) was the son of Ibrahim/Abraham. Ismail was known as the father of all Arabs. Ax refers to a weapon. As this was tattoed on his arm, it could mean that he saw himself as the instrument or the vindicator of the Arabs - his arm being the weapon of destruction on behalf of the father of the Arabs, Ismail/Ishmael
How about he played Lineage II like most other Koreans and his in game alias is Ismail Ax, I like my speculation the best. -- 67.8.139.92 21:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sotero M: Look up "Isma'il ibn Jafar" there is a section in the wikipedia page about Ish'mail Axe. That may be a link to the shooter. Personally, i think it is.
In James Fennimore Cooper’s story “The Prairie,” the settler Ishmael Bush, who is attempting to escape from civilization, sets out across the prairie with two key tools, a gun and an axe. Each has a symbolic meaning. The axe — which can either kill or provide shelter — stands for both creation and destruction. Could be a possible explanation for why this English major had it scrawled on his arm. Obviously it is speculation, and unless we develop a section for possible explanations for the statement (which I know isn't happening), I'm not going to include it myself. Bluefield 22:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This might be of interest. there is the "Asian Network" on tv called "AZN". There are the AX awards there for asian actors/actresses. It stands for "Asian Excellence". I figure this MAY be a link. - Joetheguy 23:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What about this passage for the meaning behind the tattoo:
In the history of mankind, Ibrahim was the great rebel who opposed idolatry and established monotheism in this world. Although physically tired of sufferings, the prophet of responsibility and leadership had a sharp mind. His heart was full of love yet he carried an axe in his hand! Faith shined from the center of Kofr. A clear fountain of tawheed, monotheism, emerged from the sewage of polytheism!
The first to fight idolatry, Ibrahim was raised in the house of Azar who used to make the idols for his tribe. Ibrahim fought not only against idolatry and Nimrod' but also against ignorance and oppression. The leader of this movement, he was riotous against abjectness. He was the source of hope and wishes, the man of faith and the founder of true unity.
Ibrahim, enter the fire - the fire of oppression and ignorance! Help prevent the people from being burned by the fire of oppression and ignorance! The same fire is ignited in the fate and future of every responsible individual who is indebted to enlightenment and guidance. For those who behave like Ibrahim, Allah will make a rose garden from the fire of Nimrods! You will not burn and leave behind your ashes. It is a symbolic demonstration of how close you get to the "fire" during your struggle and performance of Jihad. To throw yourself into the fire in order to save other people is a bitter experience, but even more painful is the Shahadat.
Ibrahim, sacrifice your son Ismail! Cut his throat with your own hands to save the people's neck from being cut. Which people? Those who have been sacrificed at the steps of the palaces of power or near the plunderer's treasures or inside the temples of hypocrisy and misery! To get courage to seize the sword from the hand of the executioner, cut Ismail's throat with a knife! Allah (Ibrahim's God) will pay Ismail's ransom. You do not kill your son nor lose him! This gesture is a lesson for the sake of your faith. You must reach the point of your willingness to sacrifice your most beloved (Ismail) with your own hands.
Source of this is http://www.al-islam.org/hajj/shariati/14.htm. Just a thought to consider I suppose.
You know what i would have done if i was a disgruntled student bent on destruction and causing as much pain to the world as i could. I would scrible something criptic yet entirely meaningless on my arm so that people for years to come would spend hours debating its significance.
Jack Thompson claims video games are common among these things. Any info if Seung Hui played? Video of Mr Thompson talking about this shooting on Fox news here: http://kotaku.com/gaming/jack-thompson/
Going by the information we know about him I'd guess the game he really played was StarCraft. Now I don't see how this leads to violence but imagine if he wasn't good at StarCraft. He'd be singled out, made fun of. How could he possibly go on losing to Zerg Rushes? Now this is my theory, which I wil lbe sending to Jack Thompson, he lost a StarCraft tournament and went to avenge the Terrans. Jack Thompson, I support you and your idiotic, unintelligent accusations upon the video game industry and so I dedicate this to you. Because of you the gamers of today look good, while you look like a senile old fool that even a nursing home wouldn't want. SonnyCorleone 20:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Fuck u Jack Thompson, Fuck u Fox News, Fuck u Joe Lieberman, video games are NOT real and have ZERO effect on what you do in real life and does not give u a reason to shoot innocent people just because of GTA. Its about time the parents and teachers take some fuckin responsibility for a change.
Games can teach you how to point and pull the trigger, but no way does it emulate realistic kickback or trajectory, and let's not forget reloading. He knew what he was doing, way beyond the aid of video games. -- Palf91 00:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I dont think video games will make a person a better shooter. I do play games a lot (have even played duck hunt, wild gunmen, and other games that involve holding an electronic gun). Although i do well in shooting and many other games, i am a very poor shooter with real guns (i can barely make a 20% accuracy shooting a beer can at 10 feet away). I really think that games are just games and as a stepping stone to real life, a game is a very poor teacher. Also, video games (regardless of violence) does not necessarily make a person a mass murderer. If video games were to foster violence and make a gamer a murderer later, perhaps we could have like a school shooting every week. the only reason i think that video games came to the spotlight as a tool that makes people violent and murderous is because people see it that way. Morever, i am yet to find a "well constrcuted" study to prove that games do make people violent. Because of this, whatever jack tompson or other anti-gaming advocates say about games, their views are no better than a layperson's speculation.
How about something on the page regarding the note he posted http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/chi-070417vtech-shootings,0,4843160.story
Here is another picture of Cho from the VT website: http://198.82.160.236/tragedy/images/cho.jpg.
If the NY Times is not a reliable source, who is? // THF 13:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm seeing more information at his profile at CNN.com: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/cho.profile/index.html -- Esprix 18:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In light of the recent events, is the crime-related stub picture really appropriate? 136.165.46.150 13:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
ABCnews.com [2] has "the official" picture of Cho Seung-hui. Since I'm kinda new here, I'll let more knowledgeable folks decide if it should go up. -- Semiautomata 14:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The picture referenced above was not about Cho Seung-hui. It was a picture which appears on "crime stubs". Unfortunately the picture depicted something that would have upset people given the circumstances. We asked that it be removed and our request was graciously honored. -- Witchzilla 19:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
His name is most likely 趙承輝
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=%E8%B6%99%E6%89%BF%E8%BC%9D&btnG=Google+Search
Wikikin 19:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hangul | Hanja | Revised | MR | Popular spellings |
---|---|---|---|---|
조승희 | 趙 or 曺 | Jo | Cho | Cho Seung Hee or Cho Seung Hui |
I think I'd actually trust an Asian before a journalist in this case, even if they were many. :-) Seriously, one problem with this is if e.g. a large agency like AP get it wrong and the story gets more or less copied a lot, a mistake could spread, although that's just a thought. -- Northgrove 14:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes it was lame (a comment I made before the re-merging). Once again I apologize. ( → Netscott) 19:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
even south korean newspapers do not correctly identifiy the suspect's name, they either use 조승희 or 조승휘. Janviermichelle 15:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Without a doubt 휘 is used in masculine Korean names and was common in the era when he was born. 승희 is more of a feminine name, though I have seen males with that given name. A female example is Lee 승희, a female model from the US known for her large breasts and scantily clad photos. Eventually we will find his accurate name.
Is there any evidence he actually still used the asian convention of last name first? I understand cultural sensitivity and all that, but he was, to some degree, an American. Did he still put his last name first? Titanium Dragon 01:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
He wrote his own name Seung Cho, but I assume Wikipedia is the actual expert on how Asians write their names?
Until we have exact birth date, format should follow guidelines at WP:Date section 1.9. Use c. 1982. Ronnotel 13:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
January 18, 1984 http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2007/04/norris_hall_shooter_identified.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=%22Cho+Seung-Hui%22&btnG=Search
It appears there's no mention whatsoever of this person on the 'net, by their full name. So much for the Facebook hunting people had done. -- Zanimum 13:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What does resident alien mean? Does this mean he had permanent residency in the US (green card I believe you call it in the US). Or simply that he was legally resident in the US, i.e. could have been there on a student permit, tourist permit or work permit (both the later seem unlikely of course since he was a student). Nil Einne 13:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
You know, this whole collaborative writing process is going to be very slow if no one can edit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.104.66.1 ( talk) 13:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
How did this guy find a gun? Doesn't it take years of training and background checks to get one? He was just a kid and had only been in the country for school. Something doesn't make sense here.
I hope this isn't an argument against gun control. "You" may know a guy who can get you a gun illegally, but I doubt this foreign-exchange student would know where to get one. It is sick that this guy can just walk into a store and buy a gun. Bunbury18 14:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Blogs (ie. hotair.com) suggest the guns wwere bought here: http://www.roanokefirearms.com/ because the owner posted the name "Cho" on the black-rifles discussion board April 16, long before the ID was publicly known. The poster also claimed ATF told him the receipt was found on the shooter which was also confirmed by officials today. (CraigM)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701083.html has an interview with the owner of the gun shop. It includes "It was a very unremarkable sale," said Markell, who did not handle the sale personally. "He was a nice, clean-cut college kid. We won't sell a gun if we have any idea at all that a purchase is suspicious." I would consider that worthy of entry into the article. Jersey72 21:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't bother me enormously, but is there any need for the last sentence saying "According to a press conference on April 17, officials identified Cho as being 23 years old." ? I mean, when I read it I felt as though it doesn't flow well with the rest of the article, as in it looks really weird to have it there and worded thus, and is also kind of redundant since we know his date of birth and death anyway. F. Delpierre 14:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I considered purchasing it because, well, I'm an opportunist, but it already redirects to Virginia Tech. Quick! Thomasmallen 14:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm a big fan of US spellings for US topics (and British for British topics) but for crying out loud the Virginia city is spelled CENTREVILLE. Stop changing it to "Centerville." Moncrief 14:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
4000 articles say Centreville. Why are we going with the one that has it wrong? Centreville is in Fairfax County. The shooter is from Fairfax County. THF 14:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we CALM down please? Lets come to a consensus on the name without edit waring? MrMacMan Talk 14:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
There may BE a Centerville, but this guy was from CENTREVILLE, a Washington suburb, per the Washington Post. Moncrief 15:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that our esteemed colleagues have found a source that says Centreville, instead of fighting over one that says Centerville (Which does exist, but apparently you didn't bother to find out), the fight is over. -- Golbez 15:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's all calm down about this. BOTH cities exist. For confirmation, see here: [8] and here: [9]. Different media outlets are claiming that each city are his city of residence. For confirmation, see the posted MSNBC article (CenTERville), and the posted Washington Post article (CenTREville.) Until this is resolved, the wiki article should reflect the ongoing confusion in this rapidly developing story. I will now edit article to reflect the discrepancies in sources and acknowledge that either may be the case. Elambeth 15:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I let myself get way too heated. Sigh. This is a stressful time. I apologize. -- Golbez 15:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
He went to Tree Elementary School, for 4th and 5th grade and went by "Seung Cho" (or so the yearbook says). I believe for 6th grade, he went to Brookfield, and then Stone Middle School prior to attending Westfield HS. Gonnadunk 18:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This is incorrect. According to http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/schoolprofile/profile.cfm?profile_id=240 Westfield High School did not open until 2000. A high school graduate of 2003 began his high school career in 1999. He attended Centreville High his freshman year after Stone Middle School. I had a class with him, but don't know how we could find verification 129.59.32.17 13:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it could be the cause, but it appears that Cho received a speeding ticket last week. To verify, go to the Virginia General District Court Case Information System and select "Montgomery County General District/Blacksburg", then on the next page select "Traffic," and then search for "cho, seung". -- Ryanaxp 15:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I see corroboration for this at CCN: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/cho.profile/index.html Esprix 18:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It's probably of no relevance to the shooting whatsoever, but CNN is mentioning his court record showing that he was recently busted for speeding, and had a court case coming up.
"Court records obtained by the AP show Cho got a speeding ticket from Virginia Tech police on April 7. He was cited for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, the AP reported, with a court date set for May 23." [10]
Worth mentioning? Bueller 007 21:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Um, most people don't go on a murderous rampage after getting a speeding ticket. But, I do see your point. Though, it's kind of petty, I mean linking a speeding ticket which is not a real "crime" in the sense that it stays with you on your record for life to this would seem a bit like original research and not encyclopaedic. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It's really impossible to say if it's relevant or not at this point. I think we should err on the side of strongly-sourced inclusiveness while this is still a current event. Bartleby 14:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
With MySpace being so popular is it known if he had a MySpace page or not? 71.71.254.71 20:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC) —
Bold text I agree any webpages or internet activity do matters. As some people reffer to alcohol and drugs to keep away, others do creative writing. Remember people talk about his plays in his English class maybe he did share something online. Some of this loners use the internet to socialize not always in a positive way, they are known as the haters in chatrooms and blogs. I do believe his writing was a crying for attention and if they had the same sexual abuse history on them, that makes it a sign!
I found the myspace page of Emily Hilsch's roomate. Is that relevant?
Joetheguy
23:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It says he's lonely. So he's probably an emo. which means yes, he has a Myspace page.
H2P (
Yell at me for
what I've done)
00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Probably an emo? Suddenly everyone who is lonely is an emo.
For us older people, WHAT is emo? 141.156.166.127 06:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Allll right.
http://www.myspace.com/seunghuicho
I think that's a fake myspace account or something. Signup was April 17.
Yes, that is fake. They used information from this article or other sources. Nothing original. And the hometown is misspelled. 75.84.142.45 05:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=question+mark+man&n=-1&k=10008
As a reference with all discussions video for factual events is always warranted with that being said, why was the video that is posted on Youtube deleted as a reference? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNrBd4kKMg AcePuppy 15:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
IANAL, but every created work is automatically the copyright of its creator. The video was made by Jamal Albarghouti, so he is the creator and owner of the copyright to the video. Mr. Albarghouti then uploaded the file to CNN I-Report. The small print there states,
you hereby grant to CNN and its affiliates a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide license to edit, telecast, rerun, reproduce, use, syndicate, license, print, sublicense, distribute and otherwise exhibit the materials you submit, or any portion thereof, as incorporated in any of their programming or the promotion thereof, in any manner and in any medium or forum, whether now known or hereafter devised, without payment to you or any third party.
So Mr. Albarghouti, maybe without realizing it, signed away most of his rights to his work, which is why so many news broadcasts prominently have the CNN logo, but not Mr. Albarghouti's name. Albarghouti and maybe CNN have the ability to give permission to use the video to third parties. If you don't have that permission, you can't use the video without stepping on someone's copyright. There's always hope that Mr. Albarghouti will license his video under a free license that can be uploaded onto Wikipedia, but in the meantime links to copies of the video that do not appear to originate either from the owner or CNN should be removed. - Banyan Tree 03:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
We should merge this stub article with the main Virginia Tech massacre article. The shooter has no notoraity except for his crime of mass murder, which is told in the main article. Mytwocents 15:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
He certainly passes WP:N, and I'm sure dozens of articles are going to be written on him in the coming weeks that will allow expansion of this article. Don't merge. -- Falcorian (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
We should not repeat the romanisation information. We should remove the romanisation infobox or the info in the text. Let's not be repetitive. Please check other articles about Koreans. One way or the other, not both please. Mumun 無文 15:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the current event tag - IF he "recently died" this is obviously a current event, IE this is tautological. David Spart ( talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) 15:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I just read in a discussion forum that it had something to do with his girlfriend, with sounds pretty pathetic to commit his acts. Anyone find anything else? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.188.204.2 ( talk) 15:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
There needs to be investigation into the plays that he wrote, Richard McBeef and Mr. Brownstone. These are show very clear signs that he may have been molested or raped. Very likely a victim of pedophilia. In both of his plays he talks about molestation, pedophilia, and violence..in a very emotional manner.
From Richard McBeef
(Richard gently rests him hand on John's lap.) JOHN What the hell are you doing! (John slaps Richards's hand.) What are you, a Catholic priest! I will not be molested by an aging balding overweight pedophilic stepdad named Dick! Get your hands off me you sicko! Damn you, you Catholic priest....
SUE ..Some stepfather! JOHN He tried to touch my privates!
SUE...Are you a bisexual psycho rapist murderer! Please stop following me. Don't kill me! (She rows wrenches and pipes lying on the ground at him, but he is unhurt.) RICHARD Let me explain! John is a rambunctious pubescent boy! SUE Oh my god! You are a pedophile!
JOHN I hate him. Must kill Dick. Must kill Dick... That fat man murder dad...And he molested me.
From Mr. Brownstone
JOE He a--rapped probably half of the kids in the class. JOHN I want to kill him. JANE I wanna watch him bleed like the way he made us kids bleed.
This really needs to be investigated not only by wikipedia posters, but by the news. So far these plays have been read and talked about; I cant believe no one has put two and two together. Also his parent, there has been no mention of them…
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/franklincoverupexcerpt.shtml
76.80.166.98 07:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)jeit
Most victims of sexual abuse tend to grow up to be loners and seperated from society, trying desperatly to keep thier secret and shame to themselves. If you have no friends, establish no relationships and keep everyone at a distance, no one will ever know. His signing his name as a question mark speaks alot as well. Either he wanted to show off that no one knew him, and therefor no one could know his secret, or that he himself had no idea who he was because of some trauma from being abused or molested. Perhaps the emotional turmoil of keeping this shame to himself finaly reached a boiling point. The "Stupid Rich Kids" were too distracted to pick up on the subtle clues and hints he left, so in a final act of desperation, he vented his demons to free himself of his shame and rage.
Again, this is only speculation. CireDark 18:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The guy(the shooter) is not a 'foriegn exchange kid". He has stayed in the us for 14 years - most of the people who come to the US at a small age blend very well into the society. PLEASE DISPEL ANY THOUGHTS WHICH MAKES HIM A GUY WHO CAME HERE JUST FOR SCHOOL OR SOMETHING STUPID LIKE THAT! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sumanthsagar ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
"According to the Washington Post, his parents live in Fairfax County, an affluent suburb of Washington DC, just outside Arlington and Alexandria."...This is incorrect, Fairfax County borders Arlington county and the City of Alexandria. I also came across a source (Fox, I believe) stating that Centreville is in Eastern Virginia, near Williamsburg! Thomasmallen 16:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
MrMacMan, what on earth was wrong with that? I was trying to make it following more the guidelines on biographical articles. -- MoRsE 16:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone create a redirect at 조승희 to this article? 132.205.44.134 16:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
CNN has a new photo from the Department of Homeland Security... 132.205.44.134 16:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
CNN announced that Cho, two victims and an unrelated shooter came from Westfield high. The unrelated shooter earlier this month killed two cops. Or atleast I think that's what CNN said. 132.205.44.134 16:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This is probably splitting hairs at the worst possible time, but was he an English language major, or English literature major (or perhaps even something else)? I know all links on here right now seem to be pointing to English language, but every news source I've seen is pretty ambiguous. 132.170.29.48 17:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to talk about his family? They are innocent and people shouldn't associate him with his family - or even ruin his family's business. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.111.231.185 ( talk) 17:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
For Christ's sake, remove the family's address, don't you think they're having enough trouble right now? Who thought putting the address in the article was even a remotely reasonable thing to do?
Can I ask why it's necessary or useful to include the info about his parents' dry-cleaning business and his sister's college? How is that in any way relevant? Cerebus19 00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Admin, please add interwiki: pl:Cho Seung-hui and ru:Чо Сеунг-хуи. Bocianski 17:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
How is this at all notable? There's no reason we should expect him to participate in such activities. Seems racist to think he'd "stick to his own kind". Titanium Dragon 17:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, what people should draw from these facts isnt the issue. The issue is that the fact that he wasnt involved in the korean club isnt worth mentioning, it's missleading and unnecessary.
I think posting his parents' home address is very inappropriate. They need their privacy during this time as well, and someone in law school I know says there's all sorts of liability for Wikipedia if that stays. 69.234.216.51 17:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Those who argue that Cho was an "American" by virtue of his mere presence in the US are wrong. Using their logic, Mohammed Atta was an Arab-American. Jameswchen 06:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The rationale for removing this category that I've seen in the edit summaries is specious: that he wasn't a US citizen. Why does one need to be a US citizen and not a US permanent resident who has been living in the US since the age of 8 to be considered "American"? Here was an English major, someone who was living in this country from the age of 8, but because he didn't yet have a US passport he can't be considered American. I think this is absurd reasoning, frankly. The concept of "Asian American" has more to do with identification than citizenship, and if you disagree, please cite some evidence for your point of view.
If you disagree with this, I assume you'll back me up if I go through every European American category and delete those people in said categories who never obtained US citizenship but lived in the US for any number of years. Moncrief 18:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
No Passport, no citizenship. If your not an american citizen, your not American.
Xenophobia, pure and simple. Atleast this man was not a muslim, or had come from a muslim state 15 years ago. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's a thought. If the Korean/Asian American label is about identification rather than citizenship, then whose identification?
I know people that have lived in America for decades and take pride in the fact that they're not American. Mayorcheese 00:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
i wonder why he was in the states for 15yrs and didnt apply for citizenship. people are eligible after 5 yrs of permanent residency
Cho was a South Korean citizen who held "Permanent Resident" status in the US. That does not make him an American, an Asian-American or even a Korean-American. He could not legally vote in the US, nor was he ever eligible to hold a US Passport. Hence, he was not an American.
I suspect that some people want Cho to be categorized as an "American" in order to make a political point about "those violent Americans". Get over it. Cho was not an American citizen. Period. Jameswchen 01:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright -- I believe that being an 'American' doesn't mean you have citizenship. If we look at some fellow Asian Americans we come across NFL player Eric Kimble (born in Korea, moved to US -- no mention of citizenship), nobel prize winning physicist Tsung-Dao Lee (born in china, no mention of citizenship), LPGA golfer Grace Park (golfer), pornstar Lucy Lee (Korean) (born in korea, no mention of citizenship). animator Peter Chung, olympic medalist Toby Dawson (born in korea). I could continue, but I feel this is enough to establish a pattern here. What do we think? MrMacMan Talk 05:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, let me say that I disagree with the whole Asian American tag being used for cultural reasons (presumption abounds when defining someone else's culture), like EECavazos seems to be getting at. I tried to make a supported argument for this, but I realized I couldn't because, according to Asian_Americans#Terminology (see the last paragraph in the Terminology section) "Asian American" *can* mean anybody who could be counted as such by the US census, which does not rely on citizenship for its count (according to the article I cited) but only physical presence in the US and ethnic background. On that basis, the tag "Asian American" for Cho stands, although I'd be happy to stop at the more precise and less connotative "Korean immigrants to the United States" tag, which gets the same job done but with less room, in my eyes, for controversy (but even me suggesting this is probably, in fact, controversial). Nonetheless, using the Wikipedia definition says it's okay to label this individual as "Asian American." It seems to me that Wikipedia has spoken, and it's in conflict with my gut; however, I don't outweigh Wikipedia and I'm willing to leave the cultural debate about the appropriateness of calling this person "Asian American" to a venue other than this Wikipedia page. EECavazos, et al., could you go along with this line of reasoning? Insignificant1 07:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
An "American" is a state of mind, not defined by a certain document. His lifestyle was that of an American. Thank you.
I think it's fair to say Mr. Cho was a product of American educational/cultural systems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnyjH5wusqs
Please be careful in deleting footnotes that are named: someone deleted the first Newsday footnote, and now two other footnotes have been blanked as a result. THF 18:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is English Wikipedia following Korean norms by having this person's last name first? ( → Netscott) 18:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This should be put back to Cho Seung-hui. Korean names are last name first, and the MSM outlets are all using Cho Seung-hui. --
Scientz
I've fully move-protected the article, after Angr untangled the mess made by a bunch of page moves. If there's any need to move the page, request unprotection. -- Slowking Man 19:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I've taken this out of the article because of WP:SYN. WP:NOR prohibits citing to sources to draw conclusions or do analysis not available in reliable sources discussing the subject of the article. THF 18:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, our murderer wrote a play: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html
The thing I find most disturbing about his plays is that a reputable University would actually accept a person with his standard of writing onto an English course. I would never have passed High School had I written like that -- JamesTheNumberless 10:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The info is relevant. I think it should be in the motive section . But 1st it NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. _ Lilkunta 19:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Will whoever keeps deleting this hold off for ten seconds so that I can put the citation in, please? The attribution has been made by multiple news sources, including MSNBC at 3:45 pm ET this date. -- Lisasmall 20:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The info is relevant. I think it should be in the motive section . But 1st it NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. _ Lilkunta 19:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The Writings section, and any relevant information elsewhere needs to be cleaned up. According to a classmate, Cho was in the Playwriting class "last fall" (
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/). According to VT's website, the class was taught by Falco, not Roy (
http://www.english.vt.edu/ug/Fall%202006.pdf)
Is it really necessary to link to the second Korean mass-murderer? Other than being a Korean killer, what connection is there between these two individuals? Links to the Columbine killers are not present, so why would this be linked? Bluefield 19:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Isocyanide 20:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC) • contribs) 19:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
You guys are talking about how they "set records" like it is an Olympic competition or something. Why not link to the article about Shoko Asahara while we are at it? He is an Asian killer. Why not establish who the most prolific killer is in every country in the world and a "See Also" link to them as well? The inclusion of Bum-Kon in this article is unnecessary and there is no reason to relate this kid to a Korean soldier. And the link to the Columbine killers is only through a link to all school shootings, then through the link to Columbine, while Bum-Kon gets a direct link? Totally inconsistent. Bluefield 20:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
There are more differences than similarities between the two. One gained access to weapons from a military depot, one from a gun shop. One was upset that he didn't have enough money to marry his live-in girlfriend, the other apparently had a dispute with his girlfriend. One killed people in two separate rural villages in Korea, the other targeted his own university. The fact that they are both prolific Korean killers is not noteworthy at all. The linking of U.S. spree killings is appropriate because this act occurred in America. We don't need to look for spurious connections between Seung-hui and any other person in the world just to build up the "See Also" section of the page. Bluefield 20:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like a racism to me, it seems that including Bum-kon implies that South Koreans are prone to be spree killers, which is not. Janviermichelle 20:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The article says he shot himself (in the head?). Do we know which gun he used on himself? Ikilled007 20:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In the picture featured in the article, Who is the other person next to Cho wearing the mask? Wikidudeman (talk) 03:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I have long believed that when a person is "diagnosed" with a potentially dangerous mental disorder, his name should be entered into a national database to avoid selling that person any kind of firearm by legal means. Also, this would help authorities track people with mental problems who have tried to purchase guns in the future, and keep and eye on them. This law should also state that ANY person who is in the database is found to have a firearm in their possession they should be treated the same way as a felon in possession of a firearm. t would be up to congress to pass a law restricting gun sales to mentally unbalanced people, and to carefully choose what kinds of mental problems would fall into that category, because if the law states that ANY mental disorder is grounds for rejection of a gun sale, then 300 million americans would most likely lose their right to own guns. I don't think this tragedy could have been avoided other than by this guy's own reasoning. The way he rants on the videos shows total disgust with others and the determination to follow through, so a gun law to this effect may have done little to prevent this from happening, but maybe he would have been tracked by police once he tried to purchase the guns. I know that there are probably a million reasons why the government can't use medical histories of citizens for these kinds of purposes, but right now, I know of a good one why they should.
Gun control is a scapegoat. There are plenty of guns throughout the world, and are used responsibly. The problem is America. http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html
As it turns out, there is a law prohibiting the diagnosed with mental problems from purchasing guns, but apparently, this person fell through the cracks... FyT 23:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the McBeef story reflects how he viewed other people's power over him, and him not being able to respond as "normal" people do. (I say "normal" as a means to differentiate his mental state from those around him.) I see a frustration in his video, and writings of a person who felt was always made the scapegoat, or punching bag for the more astute people around him. I believe he was channeling what he felt through McBeef's frustration at the fact he wasnt doing anything but other people simply blamed him out of spite, fear, anger, or plain childish bullying, and in the end was made to look like a reject in his own eyes, or one that always brought problems, and therefore people avoided him, or were mean to him. What the kid did to McBeef in his story is basically what he believed was being done to him, nad I think he wanted to be that kid, if only once he could feel that power over someone else, were he could do anything to others without consequence to himself. The final part when McBeef strikes the kid out of "desecrated hurt and anger" was what he felt was happening to himself. In reality I think the story really talks about McBeef being himself, the kid is those who made fun of him and terrorized, hurt, or otherwise made him into the punching bag because of his condition, looks or whatever it was, and the mother is society who automatically blamed him for whatever others claimed, or did. The story about him stalking two girls may be another pointer, maybe he meant no harm to the girls he supposedly stalked, no charges were ever brought against him for stalking, so I have to assume the situation was borderline if anything, if thats the case, he must have felt rejected on a monumental scale. At least in my eyes, stalkers are amongst the lowest types in society. Now, a lot of people are vilifying this guy for what he did, some call him evil, some a monster, even a lunatic. But McBeef looks like the victim in the story, and I believe 99% of people who read that story thought that the kid had it coming, or at least would not punish McBeef for his action, because we all read how the kid brought him to a point of no return, and the mother sided with the kid immediately without thought to McBeef's claims, and this I think, is the missing link in this tragedy.
Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do to turn back time, and we can't arrest someone simply for writing these things, because if we do, then people like Quentin Tarrantino, or Stephen king would be committed to a mental hospital for life, but we can learn to better understand people in his situation and get them real help before they go all out and commit this kind of atrocious crimes... FyT 19:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Seung-Hui Cho/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
*4 images, 86 citations. Smee 20:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC). |
Last edited at 20:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:25, 2 May 2016 (UTC)