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The entry title ought to be “September 11, 2001, attacks” if the date format is going to be Mmmm DD, YYYY. However, beyond making this note, I am not going to try to wrestle with anyone over this issue. — SlamDiego 13:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to "vote" on one version of this article and make it perma-protected? I know this is against everything that wikipedia stands for, but this article has been the center of argument for years, there is 26 pages of archived material (Granted, users on this talk page archive quite frequently). These years long arguements have had a ripple effect across wikipedia.
anyway, just a suggestion. Personally, I have never got involved in these really high-profile pages such as Iraq War and 9/11. It seems like a waste of time to be edit warring over one page indefinetly... Travb ( talk) 00:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This article covers the event very well, but I have put it on hold for now with a few suggestions on improving it further before passing it as a GA.
Sources should be added to these statements:
This is a very well-written article that just needs a few modifications. Although some of my suggestions are very minor (I'm sure you'll enjoy fixing those ones), I'll wait to pass the article when the other ones are fixed. There are many sources available for these events and I'm sure it shouldn't be too much of a problem to find some for the statements above. So, for right now I'll put the article on hold for seven days until they are fixed. If you have any questions, please contact me on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this question has been raised before, and it's no doubt been lost in arguments over conspiracy theories, but isn't there a section missing on the security, intelligence and defence establishment failures related to 9/11? There are bit about it in the sub-article on responsibility, but it seems to me that this article so far has left out even the 9/11 Commission's slap on the wrist for the intelligence community. What sorts of barriers to introducing that sort of section do people here see? I.e., we need a section about "what went wrong" inside the US, which made 9/11 possible.-- Thomas Basboll 15:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for these comments. My idea now is to add a section about "vulnerabilities". I want to give the reader a sense of how difficult it must have been to carry out the attacks and/or how lucky the terrorists were. Basically: (1) they did not get caught in the planning/training stages (though Able Danger seems almost to have caught them), (2) they got past airport security (not too suprising given the very little weaponry to make them suspicious), (3) they successfully hijacked four planes (and there is no solid evidence of any unsuccessful cells), (4) their planes were not intercepted (due either to following standard operating procedures, failure to follow them, or distractions by war games), (5) they managed to hit three of their targets, and (6) the worst possible thing, namely, total collapse, happened to two of them (with the no doubt completely unexpected bonus of building 7 thrown in). So there were intelligence failures, security failures, air traffic control failures, air defence failures, and even engineering (or at least building) failures that all seemed to max out on 9/11. This is important because much of the post-9/11 reaction of course had to do with tightening these areas up (everything from improved airport security to new building codes). If anyone has a good idea for a heading, I'm all ears.-- Thomas Basboll 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It appears that there have been no changes to the suggestions listed above so at this time I am going to fail the article. The article is very well written and covers it in detail, however, it does need more sources to pass. Please fix the above suggestions before nominating again. -- Nehrams2020 01:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This needs a definite source. To my knowledge it is merely a popular myth/presumption. While there have been reports (from family members talking on cell phones) and ambiguous indications from the black box recording, there is yet to be any definitive proof that the passengers on this flight attempted a takeover of the plane, or to what extent such an attempt had on the ultimate fate of the plane. The speed with which this myth propagated is what makes it problematic -- it served to instill patriotism and courage in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, when details were still extremely sketchy, and people simply accepted it as fact. Even assuming this was what happened, important questions like "did the passengers onboard approve of this course of action, or was it instigated primarily by a handful of glory-seekers?" have never been asked in the popular press. The fact is that nobody knows for sure what happened on that plane, nor of the circumstances that would define those passengers as heroes or egomaniacs. For now, I'm going to remove this line from the article, though if anyone feels strongly enough to add it back (and I suspect at least one person will be) then I'll leave it alone and you can continue the discussion here. VanishingUser 21:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
ok, I believe that this external link should go in, please read through it (carefully) and address your concerns. You see, while I'm well aware that we have the other article I'd weigh that there is not enough emphasis on the conspiracies here,where they naturally belong. I'd also say that the failure of 911 Commission should be pointed (and not directed) out (of) here. Share your thoughts, if you will… Lovelight 09:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
In case anyone wanted to discuss it rationally:
Text of survey question: "81. When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
(And that's not even getting into the sampling bias.) Peter Grey 18:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I searched for "84" in the source and did not find it relating to 9/11. Bush's approval rating was 84% the week of 9/11 was the only hit of 84 related to 9/11. This is too primary of a source anyway. A notable statistician would need to make the claim, not someone synthesizing a value from raw poll numbers. -- Tbeatty 21:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
So, are we going to recognize the public opinions or not? Peter? Aude? Tbeatty? Anyone... Lovelight 00:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11 Sdedeo ( tips) 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
According to which policy? Is this page not just for 'discussion' or 'Talk' as the title suggests? Mach Seventy 07:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The entry title ought to be “September 11, 2001, attacks” if the date format is going to be Mmmm DD, YYYY. However, beyond making this note, I am not going to try to wrestle with anyone over this issue. — SlamDiego 13:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | In the month-day-year style of dates, the style most commonly used in the United States and hence now recommended by Chicago, commas are used both before and after the year. In the day-month-year system—sometimes awkward in regular text, though useful in material that requires many full dates—no commas are needed. Where month and year only are given, or a specific day (such as a holiday) with a year, neither system uses a comma. | ” |
Slam Diego is absolutely right that the title should be punctuated either "September 11, 2001, attacks" or "11 September 2001 attacks." Someone usually raises this point every six months or so on this discussion page. (See Archive 19, item 18; Archive 20, item 3.) In those prior discussions, I've cited the 9/11 Commission Report and the New York Times, both of which use "September 11, 2001, attacks." No one has ever responded with any authority supporting the way the title is currently punctuated. I don't know why some editors here simply refuse to admit that it's incorrect. 75.3.91.40 16:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that the easiest way to correct the title (as I suggested in Archive 20, item 3) would be to change it to "September 11 attacks." No one is going to confuse these attacks with the Septemeber 11 attacks of some other year. 75.3.118.146 15:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There is one major difference between the title of this article and " 7 July 2005 London bombings" - and that is the location. Surely the article should be [[September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington DC" or something similar. Or change the name of the London bombings to 7 July 2005 bombings" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.155.140.198 ( talk) 09:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
Is it possible to "vote" on one version of this article and make it perma-protected? I know this is against everything that wikipedia stands for, but this article has been the center of argument for years, there is 26 pages of archived material (Granted, users on this talk page archive quite frequently). These years long arguements have had a ripple effect across wikipedia.
anyway, just a suggestion. Personally, I have never got involved in these really high-profile pages such as Iraq War and 9/11. It seems like a waste of time to be edit warring over one page indefinetly... Travb ( talk) 00:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe I read somewhere that the terrorists were inspired by the Kamikaze attacks during World War 2, but I can't verify this anywhere.. Has anyone else ever read that?
Yes actually the elite controllers of the CIA and the Federal Reserve saw 9/11 as a Kamikaze attack they either went for the gusto or their monopoly control would crumble. So they orchestrated the events of the day. They had to cover their tracks in case they were caught this is why they conducted numerous drills on the morning of 9/11. These drills mirrored exactly what the terrorists supposedly carried out. The chance of a drill being conducted at the exact time as the exact same incident is implausible. It happens time and again the Russians use drills to cover themselves in case they are caught. If someone catches them before it's over, they can say oh, we were conducting a drill. My friends were murdered by a criminal elite within my own government. I want the truth to come out God Bless everyone who seeks the truth in all its forms. The official conspiracy theory of 19 highjackers using box cutters to take over 4 planes and hit 75% of their targets is the theory that offends me not the 9/11 truth movement which seeks to understand and find out what really happened.
Hubert Shiau, AIM: hmshiau 13:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This article covers the event very well, but I have put it on hold for now with a few suggestions on improving it further before passing it as a GA.
Sources should be added to these statements:
This is a very well-written article that just needs a few modifications. Although some of my suggestions are very minor (I'm sure you'll enjoy fixing those ones), I'll wait to pass the article when the other ones are fixed. There are many sources available for these events and I'm sure it shouldn't be too much of a problem to find some for the statements above. So, for right now I'll put the article on hold for seven days until they are fixed. If you have any questions, please contact me on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I deleted what looked like vadalism on Nehrams2020's message.-- Deathhatefear 19:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this question has been raised before, and it's no doubt been lost in arguments over conspiracy theories, but isn't there a section missing on the security, intelligence and defence establishment failures related to 9/11? There are bit about it in the sub-article on responsibility, but it seems to me that this article so far has left out even the 9/11 Commission's slap on the wrist for the intelligence community. What sorts of barriers to introducing that sort of section do people here see? I.e., we need a section about "what went wrong" inside the US, which made 9/11 possible.-- Thomas Basboll 15:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for these comments. My idea now is to add a section about "vulnerabilities". I want to give the reader a sense of how difficult it must have been to carry out the attacks and/or how lucky the terrorists were. Basically: (1) they did not get caught in the planning/training stages (though Able Danger seems almost to have caught them), (2) they got past airport security (not too suprising given the very little weaponry to make them suspicious), (3) they successfully hijacked four planes (and there is no solid evidence of any unsuccessful cells), (4) their planes were not intercepted (due either to following standard operating procedures, failure to follow them, or distractions by war games), (5) they managed to hit three of their targets, and (6) the worst possible thing, namely, total collapse, happened to two of them (with the no doubt completely unexpected bonus of building 7 thrown in). So there were intelligence failures, security failures, air traffic control failures, air defence failures, and even engineering (or at least building) failures that all seemed to max out on 9/11. This is important because much of the post-9/11 reaction of course had to do with tightening these areas up (everything from improved airport security to new building codes). If anyone has a good idea for a heading, I'm all ears.-- Thomas Basboll 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It appears that there have been no changes to the suggestions listed above so at this time I am going to fail the article. The article is very well written and covers it in detail, however, it does need more sources to pass. Please fix the above suggestions before nominating again. -- Nehrams2020 01:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This needs a definite source. To my knowledge it is merely a popular myth/presumption. While there have been reports (from family members talking on cell phones) and ambiguous indications from the black box recording, there is yet to be any definitive proof that the passengers on this flight attempted a takeover of the plane, or to what extent such an attempt had on the ultimate fate of the plane. The speed with which this myth propagated is what makes it problematic -- it served to instill patriotism and courage in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, when details were still extremely sketchy, and people simply accepted it as fact. Even assuming this was what happened, important questions like "did the passengers onboard approve of this course of action, or was it instigated primarily by a handful of glory-seekers?" have never been asked in the popular press. The fact is that nobody knows for sure what happened on that plane, nor of the circumstances that would define those passengers as heroes or egomaniacs. For now, I'm going to remove this line from the article, though if anyone feels strongly enough to add it back (and I suspect at least one person will be) then I'll leave it alone and you can continue the discussion here. VanishingUser 21:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
ok, I believe that this external link should go in, please read through it (carefully) and address your concerns. You see, while I'm well aware that we have the other article I'd weigh that there is not enough emphasis on the conspiracies here,where they naturally belong. I'd also say that the failure of 911 Commission should be pointed (and not directed) out (of) here. Share your thoughts, if you will… Lovelight 09:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Most of this article is about the effects of 9/11, not the events themselves. That problem should perhaps be fixed by establishing some more subarticles, or moving more material into the existing ones. In any case, as far as I can tell, based in part on the anniversary coverage last year, one of the important consequences of 9/11 has been to bring together a number of projects at the far left and far right of the political spectrum and, it seems, to strengthen these projects immensely. To not notice the effects of 9/11 on the internal resistance to the US government (i.e., American dissidence) is a bit myopic. Many on the more established left (and to a lesser extent right) are deeply concerned about what 9/11 has done to the prospect of long-term social change, i.e., its effect on the overall concentration of power. They have also noted "conspiracy theories" as one of the problems that it has led to, since these theories (they argue) hold out too little hope for the mainstream political process. As Time magazine put, "this is mainstream political phenomenon." That, in itself is a remarkable effect of 9/11: it has caused (as some have argued) a rebirth of the "paranoid style". Now, paranoia is of course no guarantee that they're not after you. But it doesn't really matter what the "reality" about 9/11 is. Conspiracy theories are part of political reality. Or so, in any case, is how the argument for giving them more space here should go. (No political project has ever depended on being right, or even realistically possible, in order to be considered notable.)-- Thomas Basboll 15:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
In case anyone wanted to discuss it rationally:
Text of survey question: "81. When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
(And that's not even getting into the sampling bias.) Peter Grey 18:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I searched for "84" in the source and did not find it relating to 9/11. Bush's approval rating was 84% the week of 9/11 was the only hit of 84 related to 9/11. This is too primary of a source anyway. A notable statistician would need to make the claim, not someone synthesizing a value from raw poll numbers. -- Tbeatty 21:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
So, are we going to recognize the public opinions or not? Peter? Aude? Tbeatty? Anyone... Lovelight 00:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd support it if you'd be willing to use the 3 terms used in the source instead of polarizing the results in your favor. -- Wildnox (talk) 18:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The September 3rd, 2006 edition of Time Magazine, a major news publication in the United States, reported that "A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves."
Owing to this high number, what justification do this page's contributors have for limiting the Conspiracy Theories section to one small paragraph? Mach Seventy 07:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
If you want to know why we have to continuously revisit this issue, take a look at this citation which Lovelight graciously posted here earlier: This page, where it provides instructions on how to insert 9/11 CT propaganda into Wikipedia articles. MortonDevonshire Yo · 21:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to initiate a vote on the expansion on the main page of the Conspiracy Theories section to a second paragraph to make mention of public opinion. 24.88.76.172 21:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
For: Mach Seventy 16:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
If you cannot prove that the 9/11 attacks did not involve a conspiracy, then how can you let the theory that it was a terrorist attack be written as fact?
Might I add that there was no mention of Al-Qaida as an organization until the early 2001 trial fo the 1993 WTC bombers !?! And sorry for not signing the comment above -- El magnifico 23:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear contributors,
as new to Wikipedia and with special interst in 911, I looked up these pages. I see 911 has been a conflict here -understandable. I've spent many hours digging into the 911-stuff, and yes, that led me to belive in the concpiracy theories about it..
As I view the main page of Wikipedia 911, these perspectives on the 911-events seems marginalized and suppressed. So to me, the main page seems unballanced and biased, and maybe shows me the limitations of Wikipedia.
Yet I must say I'm very impresed by Wikipedia and what you contributors have made together!!
--
Geir
17:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes Morton I agree, this one is about the facts and facts say that certain amount of people are skeptical of official take on events. I'm not sure why would facts be met with such stiff opposition, but I do understand your efforts and your POV. Well since we're examining the facts, how about a fine factual section on that foreknowledge? Regardless of perspectives recent BBC's documentary (my condolences to fine journalism, but have courage, after all, the minority is to blame…) did illustrate that there was a sheer failure to act. This failure should be recognized not only here, but on all related pages… such as of Dr. Rice's, signor Rumsfeld's, Monsieur Cheney's und der Herr Bush's of course… How about such facts? Those have nothing to do with conspiracy. Since yesterday, I'd also say that building 7 deserves a bit more room. It's been neglected for a while, and at least we'll have something to do while we wait for final report. No conspiracy there, just recognition of a very peculiar fall. I'm sure they'll explain it, eventually… Lovelight 19:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
While the September 11 attacks were in the first instance an act of external aggression on US targets, their deeper motivation and remarkable success cannot be attributed to the acts and intentions of the hijackers alone. The events of that day must be understood on the background of a series of systemic failures of both a social and technical nature, which include the military establishment, the intelligence community [4], the law-enforcement community, and the civil aviation industry.
US foreign policy has long been the focus of deep resentment in the Middle East and much of the third world. Terrorism has been a well known manifestation of this resentment and had, already before September 11, 2001, been regularly directed at US targets. The 1993 World Trade Center bombings demonstrated the threat of foreign terrorism against targets also inside the United States and indicated the World Trade Center itself as a target.
The events of September 11, 2001 revealed that the United States was much more vulnerable to terrorism than had been imagined. Despite awareness of the threat, terrorist cells that would eventually carry out the attacks were able to live and even train for their mission in the US, without being thwarted by intelligence or law-enforcement agencies. The background for this failure seems to have been poor communication between agencies, especially the FBI and the CIA.
Airport security and air defence in the US also seemed ill prepared to prevent the events of that day. Four hijackings we able to occur and proceed unhindered toward their targets. In both cases, authorities had apparently expected a different sort of enemy. Hijackers were expected to take hostages and make demands, not use the airplanes to inflict immediate damage; enemies from the air were expected to come from outside US airspace.
Finally, three of the biggest skyscrapers in the world proved to be unable to survive the attacks, even though the possibility of aircraft collisions had been considered in their design, as had the need to survive hurricanes and earthquakes.
The above section has been reverted twice now by Aude. First he said it was "not ready"; then he said: "unreferenced, editorial (not encyclopedic) tone, no consensus". Okay. Have at it. What parts are written in an editorializing tone? Can they not be fixed by replacing a few words? The account presented here can be sourced 90% (I'm guessing) to the official 9/11 commission report, and the rest can be found in some of the mainstream, booklength treatments of the events. It's common knowledge, relevant, well written (if I may so), and completely encyclopedic. Moreover, it establishes a frame of failures on that day that guides a reading of the rest of the article.-- Thomas Basboll 23:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
There clearly needs to be a section on the background of the attacks. An article on 9/11 that doesn't do anything (and this article doesn't do anything) to answer the question How could this have happened? is not good enough. This article needs to help the reader put 9/11 in perspective.-- Thomas Basboll 00:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Basbolls draft above is horribly POV and completely unacceptable. The U.S. and many western nations have faced terrorism since 1950's Algeria. The U.S. has been ungoing attacks off and on for almost as long as that, escalating in 1983 and again in the 90's, and the attacks have become more widespread. The draft Basboll proposes is way off focus for this article, which needs to concentrate on the events of one day, with only minor mentions of planning and after effects, which are already covered in other articles as mentioned in the dialogue above.-- MONGO 07:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I can see this is going to be a long process. As I understand it, the standardly accepted account includes an understanding of how US authorities failed to prevent the attacks (failed in the sense that the buildings also "failed", i.e., not necessarily with any suggestion that they should have behaved differently--though that question must of course be noted). Here's an example of the sort of thing I'm looking for; it is in the Encyclpaedia Britannica article on Pearl Harbor:
Reading this article about 9/11, however, one gets no sense that anything "went wrong" on 9/11 other than whatever went wrong in the minds of the terrorists. (As if the decisive factor was the motive.) This article therefore does not really help the reader to understand a very important historical event, i.e., it does not present a even a cursory overview of the factors that contributed to the catastrophic consequences of the hijackers' actions. It simply summarizes the actions and the consequences. It doesn't demonstrate an understanding of the event. It occurs to me that Wikipedia is here running into one of its intrinsic limits. Perhaps an event like 9/11 simply can't be understood by collective effort. But let's work on it for few weeks and see what we can come up with.-- Thomas Basboll 07:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The keys of the succes of the terrorists were two :
-In USA there was not any control in the airports and you can go into the plane with everything you want. In the rest of the world since the 1970s the control was much exhaustive.
-The procedure in case of hijaking that was given to the pilots by the air companies was to not resist and to follow the instructions of the hijakers to protect the plane and the passengers.
Apart from that, the fact that these planes were so easy to pilot helped a lot.
The governement ignored some warnings that seen from now look clear but in the middle of all the inteligence noise were not so easy to see. Even if the governement agencies would have ringed the alarm, it is very doubtful that the air companies would had allowed the kind of control in the airports that was necesary to stop the terrorists. In Europe was the same in the 1970s : until some planes were destroyed in Beirut in a famous hijaking, the aiports do not spent the money for security.
It was a very easy operation once you have the suicidal guys prepared. The enormity of the results must not mislead about how operationally easy was. The mistake was to not force the security in aiports in the 1970s when all the countries in the world did after 1973 wave of hijakings by PLO. To say that "the terrorist were able to live in USA" is absurd since the majority were innocent before 9/11 and they live as such.
The draft goes too far away IMO about how many things should have been done since only doing what all the airports in the world were doing would have been enough. The fact that many people supports Al-Qaeda around the world does not helped the attacks since the same 20 guys alone would have been able of doing the same thing. The hostility vs. USA in Middle East is a problem for the deployement of USA foreign policy in the area but is not in itself a "sine qua non" for 9/11. Terrorist organisations do not need people support to live as the countryside guerrillas do.-- Igor21 15:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
There are two notable hypothesis about the fall of building 7. Neither is currently provable. I'd like to hear some opinions, imo we should recognize both hypothesis, for I see no reason to implement NIST and neglect the other one.
Anyway, this sentence:
"A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., after being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers when they fell and subsequent fires.[10][11] Numerous adjacent buildings to the complex also had substantial damage and fires and had to be demolished."
Won't suffice. It is written as (or at least it implies) some sort of proof. NIST clearly stated that it's a working hypothesis, not a proof of any kind. Let's be factually accurate about these things. Or is that too much to ask (in one day)? Lovelight 06:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
& I'm open for suggestions since if I'm about to reformulate it, it will say something like: "The building fell in manner which is consistent with controlled demolition hypothesis."; however some may prefer to state that "the collapse of WTC 7 is still to be (un)explained." or something along those lines (I'm ok with most options as long as they imply word hypothesis). Anyway, current state of that sentence simply won't suffice; it cannot be more misleading and inaccurate than it is, there is a much better conclusion in the investigation>collapse of the towers section, we should be consistent… Peter, I'm certain you are aware of the flaw. Care to fix it? Lovelight 14:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you boys having fun? Peter, you are well aware of the flaw in the sentence, it validates something which is not factually accurate. Again, I don't care how you choose to do it, as far as I'm concerned leave them both, or remove them both (hypothesis, that is). But at its current state the sentence won't suffice it’s nothing but a false claim and we cannot have false claims in our encyclopedia. Lovelight 21:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome, so Peter, where is this theory of yours? Those reputable sources have nothing to do with our statement about mechanics of collapse. I'm still expecting for this to be fixed, with full respect to the actual facts and NPOV. Lovelight 12:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I am suspicious of Peter Grey's anti-science stance. A working hypothesis by NIST must not be presented as fact, but as a working hypothesis. Just as creationism should be presented as a working hypothesis by creationists. 83.208.3.59 21:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Frak
I highly disapprove of this section, reorganized by AudeVivere. The timing closely coincides with my movement of 'Conspiracy Theories' to the reactions section. These theories need not be correct-but they are assignments of responsibility and belong in that section. Putting Conspiracy Theories in the 'reaction' section seems only to dismiss theories that have some meat to them. And i'm not sure how 'responsibility' goes into 'background history' anyway. A poor edit.
I've thought lately, perhaps it would be a good idea to settle the conspiracy theories mention on the main page with, or course, the brief mention, but also a section detailing the contradictions, flaws, and irregularities in the official account without mention of the theories claiming to account for them. I'm sure that nobody who's contributed to this article, which is and should be more than a bare-bones account of the events and background, hasn't come across some of the contradictions in the official story (WTC7, Pentagon damage anomalies, etc.) Instead of claiming "Bush did it!" or "mini-nukes" on the main page, why can't we mention these? The official story isn't perfect, and so the wikipdia article which follows the official story closely if not to-a-T needs to make mention of it. MachSeventy 03:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This article should also mention that the perpetrators of this event have never actually been convicted, or proven guilty. Obviously, evidence and motives have been presented to make this theory appear possible, but the claim is mere heresy. Until there is no dispute, this article should not portend this theory of 19 highjackers commandeering four commercial aircraft into the most protected airspace in America, with no response to FAA communication, and executing complex maneuvers that these men, according to flight instructors, could not do. Once we understand what did not happen, then every other scenario must be deemed as possible. Ipso facto, if we do not know who actually carried out this atrocity, then every other scenario is in the realm of possibilities, and should be investigated in a balanced manner, giving equal light to every angle. Nongrata99 22:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I find this page to be riddled with weasel words, to such a degree that I refuse to cite them in the face of their grotesque ambiguity. If this simple reality is unrecognizable to the intelligent and enlightened group of wikipedia architects then I am right to feel the intense sickness and sadness I feel for the fate of our species. Shame on us for allowing this darkness. Shame on us for our intense cowardice. -Bill Switzer- 02-24-07 03:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous - RxS 03:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
some day the truth comes to light
Woefully misguided are those that trust Bush's government.
Remember kids; relatives of deceased loved ones are more inclined to be vocal.
The only place ostensibly containing info from relatives of 9/11 passengers is the 9/11 memorial page with every victim.
Someone should ask that guy where he got the pics from and if we could speak to those people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.38.223.224 ( talk) 03:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
I'm really curious now: what is the disagreement all about? Peter Grey 19:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories are predictable reactions to catastrophic events, and there are numerous citations to academic literature saying so. They are not epistemically equal, they are epistemically flawed. In any case, I oppose any expanded presentation of them in this article. Tom Harrison Talk 22:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright, how do I initiate a vote on this? I'm trying to have the Conspiracy Theories section moved to Responsibility. Mach Seventy 17:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The conspiracy theories are nothing but an attempt to make a buck off the deaths of thousands of people. Anyone trying to make these profiteers lunacy more notable is probably being paid by them to do so. 9/11/2001 conspiracy theories=make a fast buck. There is nothing reactionary about them, only evil profiteering.-- Beguiled 11:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.190.83.130 ( talk) 01:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
More sheer stupity I see here by the conspiracy theory make a buck people. Mossad knew this was going to happen? Osama was a CIA operative...hahahahaha.-- Beguiled 13:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead and try to put that, but..your point? The fact that there may be some opportunistic supporters of, for example, the demolitions theory, is irrelevant in addressing the legitimacy of the argument itself. You cannot automatically dismiss an argument's validity by use of a red herring. 67.70.20.194 20:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
An ideal related book--on topic and fulfilling Wikipedia's content criteria-- is The New York Times' A Nation Challenged: A Visual History of 9/11 and its Aftermath. It contains many searing definitive photos and concise narrative. Also it is based on that paper's Pulitzer Prise winning coverage. One of the glories of Wikipedia is its linkages and extensions. This general article needs more of these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
At this point this seems like such a stupid question,but there seems to be little in this article about it.Does anyone know exactly how the commercial airliners where hijacked by the terrorists?even on this article and even on the timeline section it simply states that they took over the plane,but how did they manage to smuggle weapons on board a plane? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.30.202.18 ( talk) 19:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
Osama bin lauden listed as perpetrator
According to the FBI site USAMA BIN LADEN (their spelling) is not wanted for 9/11 as stated on their site. Therefore I state that the information stated in this article that Osama, as listed as a perp for this crime is not accurate.
Nowhere does it state that Osama is wanted for 9/11, that is an assumption without facts nor evidence. It is based on supposition, no fact. IT does say that he is wanted for other attacks throughout the world. If the FBI had the information stating that this person was wanted they would have posted an update, therefore I submit that the official record on wikipedia stating that osama bin lauden planned and perpatrated is not correct until the FBI can provide proof as well as the other gov't services of the United States.
I submit, that anyone that can provide proof that this man was responsible for this with absolute proof, and proof stated by the FBI, who is stating this man is wanted and offering a reward. IF the FBI were to have proof and know the facts that this person was wanted by the FBI then they would have posted such information on their website. They have not. All I say is proof is needed.
fbi website—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Panacheweb (
talk •
contribs)
There is no Osama? What the heck is this guy thinking?-- Beguiled 13:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This word is used twice in the lead-in section - as an adjective to describe the attacks and as a noun to denote the hijackers. Terrorism is a loosely defined concept - the word 'terrorist' is used when you think a violent act is unjustified. We cannot have a neutral Wikipedia article that says that the 9/11 attacks were unjustified. I think they were and you think they were but that is just our point of view. It really sticks out when I see this article. Why can't the article say who called the attacks terrorist rather than taking a non-neutral stance. Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks very strange to me. 84.235.249.194 15:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
'The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[1] suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on the United States on September 11, 2001. The victims were predominantly civilians.'
'On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen terrorists[2] affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners'
'The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks on the United States by Islamic militants using hijacked planes on September 11, 2001. The victims were predominantly civilians.'
'On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers affiliated with al-Qaeda gained control of four commercial passenger jet airliners. The attacks were denounced by mainstream media and governments worldwide as terrorist acts. Subsequent to the attacks, the Bush administration declared a war on terror.'
The header to this article is an embarassment to wikipedia so long as the word 'terrorist' is used in that way. The reason its stuck there was not because of a real consensus amongst wikipedia editors in general, but because of a handful of editors camping this article and shouting down reasonable objections.
Elsewhere in wikipedia, the word terrorist is used more carefully. Here, a small clique of editors has seen fit to push the pro-US line. We are not looking at a real majority here, merely a vocal minority. Damburger 09:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to present to you this new section about effects in popular media (sub-section of "Long-term effects"). Please include more examples in the "examples" section if you can find any. Note: For the 2 examples I already put there, I copied some text directly out of the articles linked to about those examples (but not where I put "citation needed" templates). Enjoy! -- Wykypydya 00:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's something for that brand new & "refreshing" section…
& here are some initial reactions to it:
There was confusion and misinformation on the scene of a major disaster? You don't say! Why are you still here? -- Golbez 02:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Ambiguity? What is there to doubt? Those folks reported collapse of a steel frame building before it happened; they did it very accurately, clairvoyantly, as if they had some sort of preliminary NIST report. It is obvious from the "initial reaction" that the "cock-upped" response given by the BBC is not acceptable. The only question is who? Who was the source of that information? Lovelight 03:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
You folks can take that conspiracy of yours & go into oblivion with it, I'm out of here… this is not a free encyclopedia, this is a place which deliberately spreads lies, the place that only few may edit, the place where brute and uncivil minority of MONGO's is suppressing and oppressing the whole wide world of free minded editors. Good morning & good luck. Lovelight 10:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
He's left before, maybe this time he'll actually keep his word. -- Golbez 03:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I suggest linking to the following picture discussed in the following blog - http://www.lommers.org/2007/02/17/911-ground-zero-high-resolution-picture/
I have provided the blog link as opposed to the direct link since anyone who takes a look should read the blog - the picture is VERY large and therefore should not be downloaded if you're on dialup. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bah23 ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
This is meant to end once and for all the edit war over Conspiracy Theories and its rightful place in this article. I have contended that the Conspiracy Theories section is best placed under "Responsibilities," while others have disagreed. The following restates or crystallizes my case.
Firstly, the various conspiracy theories (or alternative theories) relating to 9/11 indisputably include assessments of responsibility - taking into account a number of anomalies related to that day's events, the theories reject the more popular account of 9/11, roughly equal to the account detailed in the remainder of the Responsibility section, and instead implicate individuals and groups in the United States government, the corporate world, and other parties in the murders of thousands. These theories are supported by claims based on physics, behavior of officials, nontransparency, and motive, not to mention marginalized first-hand accounts and primary sources.
Secondly, alternative accounts falling under the heading '9/11 Conspiracy Theories' are popularly believed: as mentioned, a Scripps/Howard poll found that 36% of the American public believes it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. This makes the assessment of responsibility significant.
Thirdly, the current placement of Conspiracy Theories under Reactions deprives these theories of epistemic equality. Terming the alternative theories "Reactions" puts them on equal ground with true reactions such as fear, disgust, anger, and jubilation. This implies that the theories are without reason or lack coherence; instead, they are organic human reactions to important events to be expected. This is wholly inappropriate for a developing, reasoned explanation of what happened.
Finally, I would like to voice my disgust at fellow editors who have reverted my edits, which were supported with an apparently unnoticed vote on this talk page, citing as justification "not an improvement" and the like. These were not reasoned reversions: they were the work of weasely editors who would rather resist change than debate it. I found it laughable that I was served with a warning over edit warring when one individual rejected my continued, supported edits with superficial cause.
Corinne Tabb( 69.129.105.58 15:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
First, I see no point in voting on whether a part of an article should be here or there. It needs to be figured out. So please, bring your arguments on the table. Thank you.
Second, I suggest to rename the whole section. "Conspiracy theories" in my view is not an adequate name. It implies that there is some kind of conspiracy when US officials (or others) are involved in the planning and acting out of the attacks while there would be no conspiracy if none is involved. This is wrong. Check out conspiracy. As alternative names of the section I suggest "non-official explanations" or "Explanations contradicting official account".
Third, in the end, the task will be to weed out the interpretations and present the facts. As an example: if there was no plane crashed into the Pentagon, we will not figure that out by editing plane or missile back and forth and putting the different accounts up and down different sections (reactions/responsibility). We will figure it out by editing out anything that can not cite credible sources. If some source is being criticized, mention the criticism. We can only get more detail that way. In the end the big picture will evolve out of the many many small pieces. -- Kjell.kuehne 05:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I think "conspirationist theories" is a very good name since to believe in them you need to be in a certain framework of mind that includes to accept that is feasible to create a conspiration that involves at least FBI, CIA, NSA, and NSC staff and keep it secret for several years. A theory which bears such surprising premise is really a special thing and must be included in a kind of theories. It is true that the name is eufemistic since the real one would be "completely unbelievable conspirations theories" or shorter : "unbelievable theories".
And regarding the suggested method to make the truth arise (i.e. accumulate millions of contradictory cites contradicting each other) I must clearly state that never in the history of human knowledge such a thing has been suggested. Truth arises as intersubjective consensus reached amongst honest thinkers that discuss in a common framework of mind. The thing becomes even more imposible when some of the thinkers insist in cherrypicking the cites with the intentional goal of reaching the conclusions they have selected as truth from the begining.-- Igor21 13:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The term conspiracy theory is often interpreted as pejorative term and implies to many people incorrectness or outrageusness in the theory. Many people, when told something is a conspiracy theory, will automatically dismiss it and refuse to give it any attention. Yet, something being labeled a conspiracy theory obviously does not necessarily mean it is untrue. By calling something a conspiracy theory, are we not implying to many people that it is untrue, and thus it is showing a POV? Kevin77v 08:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)kevin77v
Please add {{Link GA|zh}} in interwiki section. Thanks! -- Givegains 13:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm very unfamiliar with the 9/11 hierarchy of articles, and think that this should be included somewhere. But I am currently busy and haven't the spare time to work out the relevant place. If someone wore familiar with the articles could add it, i would be very grateful. Thanks, Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 14:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I recently watched a news clip showing on site first responders yelling to each other to get out of the area due to the fact that the building just next to the towers which I forget the name of but that was 47 stories high, was about to be "brought down" for safety reasons because it had sustained too much damage to be stable. Right after the warning to clear the area, in the background you can hear explosions going off rapidly, that were set by someone somehow. An engineer was interviewed about the clip and said that only experts could have set those timing devices and had the build implode that evenly and quickly. He said it was a professional job of controled demolition and would have taken at least 30 or 'more' men about at least half hour or 'more' under good conditions to set up. Or as Golbez brings out it would take a lot longer- so why did it have all the indicators of this being a set up? See this link: http://www.wtc7.net/ No planes hit that building yet it collapsed. Buildings with steel structures are built to hold up to a lot and remain standing. Also I just watched another clip that showed the engineers analysis of what happened with the towers and it showed how they came virtually straight down like a professional demo job .It could have been set up long before all this happened if it was an insurance scam on the buildings. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8076200333701191665The insurance companies should look into this. Can someone check into this and write an article? Well maybe I did not remember each thing the news clip said exactly and I can not spell but what about the witnesses accounts of hearing timed explosions and the audio of first responders calling for everyone to get out of the area because the building was about to be brought down? PS I just watched loose change and I am convinced it was all an inside job. It was all for money and power http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change+recut this is free to the public and should be watched by any citizen with an honest heart who wants to understand what happened. ( 69.129.105.58 15:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)) 31 March 2007 (UTC) Corinne Tabb
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
69.129.105.199 (
talk)
04:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
Per Wiki page instructions, I am opening a discussion point to add a link to an interview that I conducted with a Department of Defense employee present (within sight) of the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th.
As my 501c[3] non-profit foundation (American Antigravity) is partially supported by Google Ads, I would prefer NOT to hotlink to the audio-file directly, but instead to a descriptor page for the file, at the following URL:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/584/1/
Feel free to listen to the interview that I've conducted - it was off-the-cuff and unexpected when it happened, and thus is a little less structured than many of my others. However, I feel this is an important part of the history of September 11th, and thus is worth a link on the Sept 11th Wiki page.
Please note that the interview subject recounts his personal experience of the 911 attacks. This interview promotes the mainstream (non-conspiracy-theory) view of the attacks, and in no way disagrees with or undermines the accepted view of how or why these attacks occurred. It is not promoting a specific political or ideological agenda, merely providing context for understanding this tragedy from the viewpoint of one particular witness.
My interview subject had a number of colleagues who were inside the Pentagon for a briefing and were killed when the aircraft hit the building, and describes them briefly to memorialize their sacrifice.
Thank you;
Tim Ventura tventura6@comcast.net
Additional US Gov't Reports The article makes no reference in the gov't response section to other US reports and investigatins. I added:
- The Inspector General of the CIA conducted an internal review of the CIA's performance prior to 9/11, and was harshly critical of senior CIA officials for not doing everything possible to confront terrorism, including failing to stop two of the 9/11 hijackers, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, as they entered the United States and failing to share information on the two men with the FBI. (American Conservative, April 1, 2005, http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html last visited 2007/3/29.)
Golbez saw fit to remove this whole entry with the note "can't you link to the report directly?". I agree that there could be a link to the IG report. But I consider it unhelpful and disrespectful to remove a fully cited contribution merely because an additional citation could have been added. If Golbez wishes to contribute to the article, (s)he can add the additional cite or ask that it be added. Removing anotherwise good entry is not a constructive step. Since Golbez has not made any objection to content, I am restoring. Finally, the Congressional investigations should also be referenced here. I leave that to others.-- NYCJosh 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
>Why can't I edit the article? Babalooo 06:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The dancing Israelis incident that was reported by a number of mainstream media outlets, but funnily never mentioned again seems to paint a clear picture of who was responsible for the 9/11/2001 attacks. For those in need of a refresher this is what happened. On the day of the 9/11/2001 attacks 5 Israelis dressed as Arabs were seen and filmed in New Jersey dancing in the streets and congratulating one another and were also reported by residents to the police as jumping for joy while filming themselves in front of the towers after the initial impact. They were also reported to be driving a white, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' written on it and police were told to stop any white van if it was located. Police did stop the van and when they apprehended them they told the police "We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem.". The NYPD then found in their van maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters, $4700 cash stuffed in a sock and foreign passports. Bombsniffing dogs were also brought to the van and reacted as if they smelt explosives. The FBI also ceased and developed their photos, one of which showed one of the suspects holding up a flicked lighter in front of the buildings. Two former CIA officers confirmed that the moving van company 'Urban Moving Systems' was a front for Mossad and said that moving vans are commonly used for intelligence operations, they also said these Israelis were detained for only 71 days before being quietly let go and said "There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this was basically going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11."
Can someone explain to me why there's no mention of any of this?
Phazon - 04:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I would LOVE to know who deleted the entire section regarding "The Dancing Isralelis". I would love to know the why too. So it's fair to report the joy of Palestinians and at the same time remove any reference to the "The Dancing Isralelis"? It's perfect clear why Wikipedia won't ever be a trustworthy source of reference on its own. Ever! Scrobblix ( talk) 19:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | → | Archive 35 |
The entry title ought to be “September 11, 2001, attacks” if the date format is going to be Mmmm DD, YYYY. However, beyond making this note, I am not going to try to wrestle with anyone over this issue. — SlamDiego 13:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to "vote" on one version of this article and make it perma-protected? I know this is against everything that wikipedia stands for, but this article has been the center of argument for years, there is 26 pages of archived material (Granted, users on this talk page archive quite frequently). These years long arguements have had a ripple effect across wikipedia.
anyway, just a suggestion. Personally, I have never got involved in these really high-profile pages such as Iraq War and 9/11. It seems like a waste of time to be edit warring over one page indefinetly... Travb ( talk) 00:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This article covers the event very well, but I have put it on hold for now with a few suggestions on improving it further before passing it as a GA.
Sources should be added to these statements:
This is a very well-written article that just needs a few modifications. Although some of my suggestions are very minor (I'm sure you'll enjoy fixing those ones), I'll wait to pass the article when the other ones are fixed. There are many sources available for these events and I'm sure it shouldn't be too much of a problem to find some for the statements above. So, for right now I'll put the article on hold for seven days until they are fixed. If you have any questions, please contact me on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this question has been raised before, and it's no doubt been lost in arguments over conspiracy theories, but isn't there a section missing on the security, intelligence and defence establishment failures related to 9/11? There are bit about it in the sub-article on responsibility, but it seems to me that this article so far has left out even the 9/11 Commission's slap on the wrist for the intelligence community. What sorts of barriers to introducing that sort of section do people here see? I.e., we need a section about "what went wrong" inside the US, which made 9/11 possible.-- Thomas Basboll 15:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for these comments. My idea now is to add a section about "vulnerabilities". I want to give the reader a sense of how difficult it must have been to carry out the attacks and/or how lucky the terrorists were. Basically: (1) they did not get caught in the planning/training stages (though Able Danger seems almost to have caught them), (2) they got past airport security (not too suprising given the very little weaponry to make them suspicious), (3) they successfully hijacked four planes (and there is no solid evidence of any unsuccessful cells), (4) their planes were not intercepted (due either to following standard operating procedures, failure to follow them, or distractions by war games), (5) they managed to hit three of their targets, and (6) the worst possible thing, namely, total collapse, happened to two of them (with the no doubt completely unexpected bonus of building 7 thrown in). So there were intelligence failures, security failures, air traffic control failures, air defence failures, and even engineering (or at least building) failures that all seemed to max out on 9/11. This is important because much of the post-9/11 reaction of course had to do with tightening these areas up (everything from improved airport security to new building codes). If anyone has a good idea for a heading, I'm all ears.-- Thomas Basboll 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It appears that there have been no changes to the suggestions listed above so at this time I am going to fail the article. The article is very well written and covers it in detail, however, it does need more sources to pass. Please fix the above suggestions before nominating again. -- Nehrams2020 01:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This needs a definite source. To my knowledge it is merely a popular myth/presumption. While there have been reports (from family members talking on cell phones) and ambiguous indications from the black box recording, there is yet to be any definitive proof that the passengers on this flight attempted a takeover of the plane, or to what extent such an attempt had on the ultimate fate of the plane. The speed with which this myth propagated is what makes it problematic -- it served to instill patriotism and courage in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, when details were still extremely sketchy, and people simply accepted it as fact. Even assuming this was what happened, important questions like "did the passengers onboard approve of this course of action, or was it instigated primarily by a handful of glory-seekers?" have never been asked in the popular press. The fact is that nobody knows for sure what happened on that plane, nor of the circumstances that would define those passengers as heroes or egomaniacs. For now, I'm going to remove this line from the article, though if anyone feels strongly enough to add it back (and I suspect at least one person will be) then I'll leave it alone and you can continue the discussion here. VanishingUser 21:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
ok, I believe that this external link should go in, please read through it (carefully) and address your concerns. You see, while I'm well aware that we have the other article I'd weigh that there is not enough emphasis on the conspiracies here,where they naturally belong. I'd also say that the failure of 911 Commission should be pointed (and not directed) out (of) here. Share your thoughts, if you will… Lovelight 09:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
In case anyone wanted to discuss it rationally:
Text of survey question: "81. When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
(And that's not even getting into the sampling bias.) Peter Grey 18:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I searched for "84" in the source and did not find it relating to 9/11. Bush's approval rating was 84% the week of 9/11 was the only hit of 84 related to 9/11. This is too primary of a source anyway. A notable statistician would need to make the claim, not someone synthesizing a value from raw poll numbers. -- Tbeatty 21:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
So, are we going to recognize the public opinions or not? Peter? Aude? Tbeatty? Anyone... Lovelight 00:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11 Sdedeo ( tips) 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
According to which policy? Is this page not just for 'discussion' or 'Talk' as the title suggests? Mach Seventy 07:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The entry title ought to be “September 11, 2001, attacks” if the date format is going to be Mmmm DD, YYYY. However, beyond making this note, I am not going to try to wrestle with anyone over this issue. — SlamDiego 13:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | In the month-day-year style of dates, the style most commonly used in the United States and hence now recommended by Chicago, commas are used both before and after the year. In the day-month-year system—sometimes awkward in regular text, though useful in material that requires many full dates—no commas are needed. Where month and year only are given, or a specific day (such as a holiday) with a year, neither system uses a comma. | ” |
Slam Diego is absolutely right that the title should be punctuated either "September 11, 2001, attacks" or "11 September 2001 attacks." Someone usually raises this point every six months or so on this discussion page. (See Archive 19, item 18; Archive 20, item 3.) In those prior discussions, I've cited the 9/11 Commission Report and the New York Times, both of which use "September 11, 2001, attacks." No one has ever responded with any authority supporting the way the title is currently punctuated. I don't know why some editors here simply refuse to admit that it's incorrect. 75.3.91.40 16:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that the easiest way to correct the title (as I suggested in Archive 20, item 3) would be to change it to "September 11 attacks." No one is going to confuse these attacks with the Septemeber 11 attacks of some other year. 75.3.118.146 15:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There is one major difference between the title of this article and " 7 July 2005 London bombings" - and that is the location. Surely the article should be [[September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington DC" or something similar. Or change the name of the London bombings to 7 July 2005 bombings" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.155.140.198 ( talk) 09:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
Is it possible to "vote" on one version of this article and make it perma-protected? I know this is against everything that wikipedia stands for, but this article has been the center of argument for years, there is 26 pages of archived material (Granted, users on this talk page archive quite frequently). These years long arguements have had a ripple effect across wikipedia.
anyway, just a suggestion. Personally, I have never got involved in these really high-profile pages such as Iraq War and 9/11. It seems like a waste of time to be edit warring over one page indefinetly... Travb ( talk) 00:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe I read somewhere that the terrorists were inspired by the Kamikaze attacks during World War 2, but I can't verify this anywhere.. Has anyone else ever read that?
Yes actually the elite controllers of the CIA and the Federal Reserve saw 9/11 as a Kamikaze attack they either went for the gusto or their monopoly control would crumble. So they orchestrated the events of the day. They had to cover their tracks in case they were caught this is why they conducted numerous drills on the morning of 9/11. These drills mirrored exactly what the terrorists supposedly carried out. The chance of a drill being conducted at the exact time as the exact same incident is implausible. It happens time and again the Russians use drills to cover themselves in case they are caught. If someone catches them before it's over, they can say oh, we were conducting a drill. My friends were murdered by a criminal elite within my own government. I want the truth to come out God Bless everyone who seeks the truth in all its forms. The official conspiracy theory of 19 highjackers using box cutters to take over 4 planes and hit 75% of their targets is the theory that offends me not the 9/11 truth movement which seeks to understand and find out what really happened.
Hubert Shiau, AIM: hmshiau 13:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This article covers the event very well, but I have put it on hold for now with a few suggestions on improving it further before passing it as a GA.
Sources should be added to these statements:
This is a very well-written article that just needs a few modifications. Although some of my suggestions are very minor (I'm sure you'll enjoy fixing those ones), I'll wait to pass the article when the other ones are fixed. There are many sources available for these events and I'm sure it shouldn't be too much of a problem to find some for the statements above. So, for right now I'll put the article on hold for seven days until they are fixed. If you have any questions, please contact me on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I deleted what looked like vadalism on Nehrams2020's message.-- Deathhatefear 19:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this question has been raised before, and it's no doubt been lost in arguments over conspiracy theories, but isn't there a section missing on the security, intelligence and defence establishment failures related to 9/11? There are bit about it in the sub-article on responsibility, but it seems to me that this article so far has left out even the 9/11 Commission's slap on the wrist for the intelligence community. What sorts of barriers to introducing that sort of section do people here see? I.e., we need a section about "what went wrong" inside the US, which made 9/11 possible.-- Thomas Basboll 15:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for these comments. My idea now is to add a section about "vulnerabilities". I want to give the reader a sense of how difficult it must have been to carry out the attacks and/or how lucky the terrorists were. Basically: (1) they did not get caught in the planning/training stages (though Able Danger seems almost to have caught them), (2) they got past airport security (not too suprising given the very little weaponry to make them suspicious), (3) they successfully hijacked four planes (and there is no solid evidence of any unsuccessful cells), (4) their planes were not intercepted (due either to following standard operating procedures, failure to follow them, or distractions by war games), (5) they managed to hit three of their targets, and (6) the worst possible thing, namely, total collapse, happened to two of them (with the no doubt completely unexpected bonus of building 7 thrown in). So there were intelligence failures, security failures, air traffic control failures, air defence failures, and even engineering (or at least building) failures that all seemed to max out on 9/11. This is important because much of the post-9/11 reaction of course had to do with tightening these areas up (everything from improved airport security to new building codes). If anyone has a good idea for a heading, I'm all ears.-- Thomas Basboll 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It appears that there have been no changes to the suggestions listed above so at this time I am going to fail the article. The article is very well written and covers it in detail, however, it does need more sources to pass. Please fix the above suggestions before nominating again. -- Nehrams2020 01:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This needs a definite source. To my knowledge it is merely a popular myth/presumption. While there have been reports (from family members talking on cell phones) and ambiguous indications from the black box recording, there is yet to be any definitive proof that the passengers on this flight attempted a takeover of the plane, or to what extent such an attempt had on the ultimate fate of the plane. The speed with which this myth propagated is what makes it problematic -- it served to instill patriotism and courage in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, when details were still extremely sketchy, and people simply accepted it as fact. Even assuming this was what happened, important questions like "did the passengers onboard approve of this course of action, or was it instigated primarily by a handful of glory-seekers?" have never been asked in the popular press. The fact is that nobody knows for sure what happened on that plane, nor of the circumstances that would define those passengers as heroes or egomaniacs. For now, I'm going to remove this line from the article, though if anyone feels strongly enough to add it back (and I suspect at least one person will be) then I'll leave it alone and you can continue the discussion here. VanishingUser 21:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
ok, I believe that this external link should go in, please read through it (carefully) and address your concerns. You see, while I'm well aware that we have the other article I'd weigh that there is not enough emphasis on the conspiracies here,where they naturally belong. I'd also say that the failure of 911 Commission should be pointed (and not directed) out (of) here. Share your thoughts, if you will… Lovelight 09:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Most of this article is about the effects of 9/11, not the events themselves. That problem should perhaps be fixed by establishing some more subarticles, or moving more material into the existing ones. In any case, as far as I can tell, based in part on the anniversary coverage last year, one of the important consequences of 9/11 has been to bring together a number of projects at the far left and far right of the political spectrum and, it seems, to strengthen these projects immensely. To not notice the effects of 9/11 on the internal resistance to the US government (i.e., American dissidence) is a bit myopic. Many on the more established left (and to a lesser extent right) are deeply concerned about what 9/11 has done to the prospect of long-term social change, i.e., its effect on the overall concentration of power. They have also noted "conspiracy theories" as one of the problems that it has led to, since these theories (they argue) hold out too little hope for the mainstream political process. As Time magazine put, "this is mainstream political phenomenon." That, in itself is a remarkable effect of 9/11: it has caused (as some have argued) a rebirth of the "paranoid style". Now, paranoia is of course no guarantee that they're not after you. But it doesn't really matter what the "reality" about 9/11 is. Conspiracy theories are part of political reality. Or so, in any case, is how the argument for giving them more space here should go. (No political project has ever depended on being right, or even realistically possible, in order to be considered notable.)-- Thomas Basboll 15:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
In case anyone wanted to discuss it rationally:
Text of survey question: "81. When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
(And that's not even getting into the sampling bias.) Peter Grey 18:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I searched for "84" in the source and did not find it relating to 9/11. Bush's approval rating was 84% the week of 9/11 was the only hit of 84 related to 9/11. This is too primary of a source anyway. A notable statistician would need to make the claim, not someone synthesizing a value from raw poll numbers. -- Tbeatty 21:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
So, are we going to recognize the public opinions or not? Peter? Aude? Tbeatty? Anyone... Lovelight 00:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd support it if you'd be willing to use the 3 terms used in the source instead of polarizing the results in your favor. -- Wildnox (talk) 18:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The September 3rd, 2006 edition of Time Magazine, a major news publication in the United States, reported that "A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves."
Owing to this high number, what justification do this page's contributors have for limiting the Conspiracy Theories section to one small paragraph? Mach Seventy 07:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
If you want to know why we have to continuously revisit this issue, take a look at this citation which Lovelight graciously posted here earlier: This page, where it provides instructions on how to insert 9/11 CT propaganda into Wikipedia articles. MortonDevonshire Yo · 21:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to initiate a vote on the expansion on the main page of the Conspiracy Theories section to a second paragraph to make mention of public opinion. 24.88.76.172 21:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
For: Mach Seventy 16:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
If you cannot prove that the 9/11 attacks did not involve a conspiracy, then how can you let the theory that it was a terrorist attack be written as fact?
Might I add that there was no mention of Al-Qaida as an organization until the early 2001 trial fo the 1993 WTC bombers !?! And sorry for not signing the comment above -- El magnifico 23:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear contributors,
as new to Wikipedia and with special interst in 911, I looked up these pages. I see 911 has been a conflict here -understandable. I've spent many hours digging into the 911-stuff, and yes, that led me to belive in the concpiracy theories about it..
As I view the main page of Wikipedia 911, these perspectives on the 911-events seems marginalized and suppressed. So to me, the main page seems unballanced and biased, and maybe shows me the limitations of Wikipedia.
Yet I must say I'm very impresed by Wikipedia and what you contributors have made together!!
--
Geir
17:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes Morton I agree, this one is about the facts and facts say that certain amount of people are skeptical of official take on events. I'm not sure why would facts be met with such stiff opposition, but I do understand your efforts and your POV. Well since we're examining the facts, how about a fine factual section on that foreknowledge? Regardless of perspectives recent BBC's documentary (my condolences to fine journalism, but have courage, after all, the minority is to blame…) did illustrate that there was a sheer failure to act. This failure should be recognized not only here, but on all related pages… such as of Dr. Rice's, signor Rumsfeld's, Monsieur Cheney's und der Herr Bush's of course… How about such facts? Those have nothing to do with conspiracy. Since yesterday, I'd also say that building 7 deserves a bit more room. It's been neglected for a while, and at least we'll have something to do while we wait for final report. No conspiracy there, just recognition of a very peculiar fall. I'm sure they'll explain it, eventually… Lovelight 19:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
While the September 11 attacks were in the first instance an act of external aggression on US targets, their deeper motivation and remarkable success cannot be attributed to the acts and intentions of the hijackers alone. The events of that day must be understood on the background of a series of systemic failures of both a social and technical nature, which include the military establishment, the intelligence community [4], the law-enforcement community, and the civil aviation industry.
US foreign policy has long been the focus of deep resentment in the Middle East and much of the third world. Terrorism has been a well known manifestation of this resentment and had, already before September 11, 2001, been regularly directed at US targets. The 1993 World Trade Center bombings demonstrated the threat of foreign terrorism against targets also inside the United States and indicated the World Trade Center itself as a target.
The events of September 11, 2001 revealed that the United States was much more vulnerable to terrorism than had been imagined. Despite awareness of the threat, terrorist cells that would eventually carry out the attacks were able to live and even train for their mission in the US, without being thwarted by intelligence or law-enforcement agencies. The background for this failure seems to have been poor communication between agencies, especially the FBI and the CIA.
Airport security and air defence in the US also seemed ill prepared to prevent the events of that day. Four hijackings we able to occur and proceed unhindered toward their targets. In both cases, authorities had apparently expected a different sort of enemy. Hijackers were expected to take hostages and make demands, not use the airplanes to inflict immediate damage; enemies from the air were expected to come from outside US airspace.
Finally, three of the biggest skyscrapers in the world proved to be unable to survive the attacks, even though the possibility of aircraft collisions had been considered in their design, as had the need to survive hurricanes and earthquakes.
The above section has been reverted twice now by Aude. First he said it was "not ready"; then he said: "unreferenced, editorial (not encyclopedic) tone, no consensus". Okay. Have at it. What parts are written in an editorializing tone? Can they not be fixed by replacing a few words? The account presented here can be sourced 90% (I'm guessing) to the official 9/11 commission report, and the rest can be found in some of the mainstream, booklength treatments of the events. It's common knowledge, relevant, well written (if I may so), and completely encyclopedic. Moreover, it establishes a frame of failures on that day that guides a reading of the rest of the article.-- Thomas Basboll 23:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
There clearly needs to be a section on the background of the attacks. An article on 9/11 that doesn't do anything (and this article doesn't do anything) to answer the question How could this have happened? is not good enough. This article needs to help the reader put 9/11 in perspective.-- Thomas Basboll 00:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Basbolls draft above is horribly POV and completely unacceptable. The U.S. and many western nations have faced terrorism since 1950's Algeria. The U.S. has been ungoing attacks off and on for almost as long as that, escalating in 1983 and again in the 90's, and the attacks have become more widespread. The draft Basboll proposes is way off focus for this article, which needs to concentrate on the events of one day, with only minor mentions of planning and after effects, which are already covered in other articles as mentioned in the dialogue above.-- MONGO 07:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I can see this is going to be a long process. As I understand it, the standardly accepted account includes an understanding of how US authorities failed to prevent the attacks (failed in the sense that the buildings also "failed", i.e., not necessarily with any suggestion that they should have behaved differently--though that question must of course be noted). Here's an example of the sort of thing I'm looking for; it is in the Encyclpaedia Britannica article on Pearl Harbor:
Reading this article about 9/11, however, one gets no sense that anything "went wrong" on 9/11 other than whatever went wrong in the minds of the terrorists. (As if the decisive factor was the motive.) This article therefore does not really help the reader to understand a very important historical event, i.e., it does not present a even a cursory overview of the factors that contributed to the catastrophic consequences of the hijackers' actions. It simply summarizes the actions and the consequences. It doesn't demonstrate an understanding of the event. It occurs to me that Wikipedia is here running into one of its intrinsic limits. Perhaps an event like 9/11 simply can't be understood by collective effort. But let's work on it for few weeks and see what we can come up with.-- Thomas Basboll 07:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The keys of the succes of the terrorists were two :
-In USA there was not any control in the airports and you can go into the plane with everything you want. In the rest of the world since the 1970s the control was much exhaustive.
-The procedure in case of hijaking that was given to the pilots by the air companies was to not resist and to follow the instructions of the hijakers to protect the plane and the passengers.
Apart from that, the fact that these planes were so easy to pilot helped a lot.
The governement ignored some warnings that seen from now look clear but in the middle of all the inteligence noise were not so easy to see. Even if the governement agencies would have ringed the alarm, it is very doubtful that the air companies would had allowed the kind of control in the airports that was necesary to stop the terrorists. In Europe was the same in the 1970s : until some planes were destroyed in Beirut in a famous hijaking, the aiports do not spent the money for security.
It was a very easy operation once you have the suicidal guys prepared. The enormity of the results must not mislead about how operationally easy was. The mistake was to not force the security in aiports in the 1970s when all the countries in the world did after 1973 wave of hijakings by PLO. To say that "the terrorist were able to live in USA" is absurd since the majority were innocent before 9/11 and they live as such.
The draft goes too far away IMO about how many things should have been done since only doing what all the airports in the world were doing would have been enough. The fact that many people supports Al-Qaeda around the world does not helped the attacks since the same 20 guys alone would have been able of doing the same thing. The hostility vs. USA in Middle East is a problem for the deployement of USA foreign policy in the area but is not in itself a "sine qua non" for 9/11. Terrorist organisations do not need people support to live as the countryside guerrillas do.-- Igor21 15:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
There are two notable hypothesis about the fall of building 7. Neither is currently provable. I'd like to hear some opinions, imo we should recognize both hypothesis, for I see no reason to implement NIST and neglect the other one.
Anyway, this sentence:
"A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., after being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers when they fell and subsequent fires.[10][11] Numerous adjacent buildings to the complex also had substantial damage and fires and had to be demolished."
Won't suffice. It is written as (or at least it implies) some sort of proof. NIST clearly stated that it's a working hypothesis, not a proof of any kind. Let's be factually accurate about these things. Or is that too much to ask (in one day)? Lovelight 06:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
& I'm open for suggestions since if I'm about to reformulate it, it will say something like: "The building fell in manner which is consistent with controlled demolition hypothesis."; however some may prefer to state that "the collapse of WTC 7 is still to be (un)explained." or something along those lines (I'm ok with most options as long as they imply word hypothesis). Anyway, current state of that sentence simply won't suffice; it cannot be more misleading and inaccurate than it is, there is a much better conclusion in the investigation>collapse of the towers section, we should be consistent… Peter, I'm certain you are aware of the flaw. Care to fix it? Lovelight 14:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you boys having fun? Peter, you are well aware of the flaw in the sentence, it validates something which is not factually accurate. Again, I don't care how you choose to do it, as far as I'm concerned leave them both, or remove them both (hypothesis, that is). But at its current state the sentence won't suffice it’s nothing but a false claim and we cannot have false claims in our encyclopedia. Lovelight 21:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome, so Peter, where is this theory of yours? Those reputable sources have nothing to do with our statement about mechanics of collapse. I'm still expecting for this to be fixed, with full respect to the actual facts and NPOV. Lovelight 12:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I am suspicious of Peter Grey's anti-science stance. A working hypothesis by NIST must not be presented as fact, but as a working hypothesis. Just as creationism should be presented as a working hypothesis by creationists. 83.208.3.59 21:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Frak
I highly disapprove of this section, reorganized by AudeVivere. The timing closely coincides with my movement of 'Conspiracy Theories' to the reactions section. These theories need not be correct-but they are assignments of responsibility and belong in that section. Putting Conspiracy Theories in the 'reaction' section seems only to dismiss theories that have some meat to them. And i'm not sure how 'responsibility' goes into 'background history' anyway. A poor edit.
I've thought lately, perhaps it would be a good idea to settle the conspiracy theories mention on the main page with, or course, the brief mention, but also a section detailing the contradictions, flaws, and irregularities in the official account without mention of the theories claiming to account for them. I'm sure that nobody who's contributed to this article, which is and should be more than a bare-bones account of the events and background, hasn't come across some of the contradictions in the official story (WTC7, Pentagon damage anomalies, etc.) Instead of claiming "Bush did it!" or "mini-nukes" on the main page, why can't we mention these? The official story isn't perfect, and so the wikipdia article which follows the official story closely if not to-a-T needs to make mention of it. MachSeventy 03:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This article should also mention that the perpetrators of this event have never actually been convicted, or proven guilty. Obviously, evidence and motives have been presented to make this theory appear possible, but the claim is mere heresy. Until there is no dispute, this article should not portend this theory of 19 highjackers commandeering four commercial aircraft into the most protected airspace in America, with no response to FAA communication, and executing complex maneuvers that these men, according to flight instructors, could not do. Once we understand what did not happen, then every other scenario must be deemed as possible. Ipso facto, if we do not know who actually carried out this atrocity, then every other scenario is in the realm of possibilities, and should be investigated in a balanced manner, giving equal light to every angle. Nongrata99 22:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I find this page to be riddled with weasel words, to such a degree that I refuse to cite them in the face of their grotesque ambiguity. If this simple reality is unrecognizable to the intelligent and enlightened group of wikipedia architects then I am right to feel the intense sickness and sadness I feel for the fate of our species. Shame on us for allowing this darkness. Shame on us for our intense cowardice. -Bill Switzer- 02-24-07 03:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous - RxS 03:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
some day the truth comes to light
Woefully misguided are those that trust Bush's government.
Remember kids; relatives of deceased loved ones are more inclined to be vocal.
The only place ostensibly containing info from relatives of 9/11 passengers is the 9/11 memorial page with every victim.
Someone should ask that guy where he got the pics from and if we could speak to those people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.38.223.224 ( talk) 03:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
I'm really curious now: what is the disagreement all about? Peter Grey 19:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories are predictable reactions to catastrophic events, and there are numerous citations to academic literature saying so. They are not epistemically equal, they are epistemically flawed. In any case, I oppose any expanded presentation of them in this article. Tom Harrison Talk 22:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright, how do I initiate a vote on this? I'm trying to have the Conspiracy Theories section moved to Responsibility. Mach Seventy 17:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The conspiracy theories are nothing but an attempt to make a buck off the deaths of thousands of people. Anyone trying to make these profiteers lunacy more notable is probably being paid by them to do so. 9/11/2001 conspiracy theories=make a fast buck. There is nothing reactionary about them, only evil profiteering.-- Beguiled 11:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.190.83.130 ( talk) 01:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
More sheer stupity I see here by the conspiracy theory make a buck people. Mossad knew this was going to happen? Osama was a CIA operative...hahahahaha.-- Beguiled 13:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead and try to put that, but..your point? The fact that there may be some opportunistic supporters of, for example, the demolitions theory, is irrelevant in addressing the legitimacy of the argument itself. You cannot automatically dismiss an argument's validity by use of a red herring. 67.70.20.194 20:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
An ideal related book--on topic and fulfilling Wikipedia's content criteria-- is The New York Times' A Nation Challenged: A Visual History of 9/11 and its Aftermath. It contains many searing definitive photos and concise narrative. Also it is based on that paper's Pulitzer Prise winning coverage. One of the glories of Wikipedia is its linkages and extensions. This general article needs more of these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
At this point this seems like such a stupid question,but there seems to be little in this article about it.Does anyone know exactly how the commercial airliners where hijacked by the terrorists?even on this article and even on the timeline section it simply states that they took over the plane,but how did they manage to smuggle weapons on board a plane? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.30.202.18 ( talk) 19:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
Osama bin lauden listed as perpetrator
According to the FBI site USAMA BIN LADEN (their spelling) is not wanted for 9/11 as stated on their site. Therefore I state that the information stated in this article that Osama, as listed as a perp for this crime is not accurate.
Nowhere does it state that Osama is wanted for 9/11, that is an assumption without facts nor evidence. It is based on supposition, no fact. IT does say that he is wanted for other attacks throughout the world. If the FBI had the information stating that this person was wanted they would have posted an update, therefore I submit that the official record on wikipedia stating that osama bin lauden planned and perpatrated is not correct until the FBI can provide proof as well as the other gov't services of the United States.
I submit, that anyone that can provide proof that this man was responsible for this with absolute proof, and proof stated by the FBI, who is stating this man is wanted and offering a reward. IF the FBI were to have proof and know the facts that this person was wanted by the FBI then they would have posted such information on their website. They have not. All I say is proof is needed.
fbi website—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Panacheweb (
talk •
contribs)
There is no Osama? What the heck is this guy thinking?-- Beguiled 13:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This word is used twice in the lead-in section - as an adjective to describe the attacks and as a noun to denote the hijackers. Terrorism is a loosely defined concept - the word 'terrorist' is used when you think a violent act is unjustified. We cannot have a neutral Wikipedia article that says that the 9/11 attacks were unjustified. I think they were and you think they were but that is just our point of view. It really sticks out when I see this article. Why can't the article say who called the attacks terrorist rather than taking a non-neutral stance. Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks very strange to me. 84.235.249.194 15:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
'The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[1] suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on the United States on September 11, 2001. The victims were predominantly civilians.'
'On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen terrorists[2] affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners'
'The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks on the United States by Islamic militants using hijacked planes on September 11, 2001. The victims were predominantly civilians.'
'On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers affiliated with al-Qaeda gained control of four commercial passenger jet airliners. The attacks were denounced by mainstream media and governments worldwide as terrorist acts. Subsequent to the attacks, the Bush administration declared a war on terror.'
The header to this article is an embarassment to wikipedia so long as the word 'terrorist' is used in that way. The reason its stuck there was not because of a real consensus amongst wikipedia editors in general, but because of a handful of editors camping this article and shouting down reasonable objections.
Elsewhere in wikipedia, the word terrorist is used more carefully. Here, a small clique of editors has seen fit to push the pro-US line. We are not looking at a real majority here, merely a vocal minority. Damburger 09:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to present to you this new section about effects in popular media (sub-section of "Long-term effects"). Please include more examples in the "examples" section if you can find any. Note: For the 2 examples I already put there, I copied some text directly out of the articles linked to about those examples (but not where I put "citation needed" templates). Enjoy! -- Wykypydya 00:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's something for that brand new & "refreshing" section…
& here are some initial reactions to it:
There was confusion and misinformation on the scene of a major disaster? You don't say! Why are you still here? -- Golbez 02:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Ambiguity? What is there to doubt? Those folks reported collapse of a steel frame building before it happened; they did it very accurately, clairvoyantly, as if they had some sort of preliminary NIST report. It is obvious from the "initial reaction" that the "cock-upped" response given by the BBC is not acceptable. The only question is who? Who was the source of that information? Lovelight 03:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
You folks can take that conspiracy of yours & go into oblivion with it, I'm out of here… this is not a free encyclopedia, this is a place which deliberately spreads lies, the place that only few may edit, the place where brute and uncivil minority of MONGO's is suppressing and oppressing the whole wide world of free minded editors. Good morning & good luck. Lovelight 10:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
He's left before, maybe this time he'll actually keep his word. -- Golbez 03:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I suggest linking to the following picture discussed in the following blog - http://www.lommers.org/2007/02/17/911-ground-zero-high-resolution-picture/
I have provided the blog link as opposed to the direct link since anyone who takes a look should read the blog - the picture is VERY large and therefore should not be downloaded if you're on dialup. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bah23 ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
This is meant to end once and for all the edit war over Conspiracy Theories and its rightful place in this article. I have contended that the Conspiracy Theories section is best placed under "Responsibilities," while others have disagreed. The following restates or crystallizes my case.
Firstly, the various conspiracy theories (or alternative theories) relating to 9/11 indisputably include assessments of responsibility - taking into account a number of anomalies related to that day's events, the theories reject the more popular account of 9/11, roughly equal to the account detailed in the remainder of the Responsibility section, and instead implicate individuals and groups in the United States government, the corporate world, and other parties in the murders of thousands. These theories are supported by claims based on physics, behavior of officials, nontransparency, and motive, not to mention marginalized first-hand accounts and primary sources.
Secondly, alternative accounts falling under the heading '9/11 Conspiracy Theories' are popularly believed: as mentioned, a Scripps/Howard poll found that 36% of the American public believes it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. This makes the assessment of responsibility significant.
Thirdly, the current placement of Conspiracy Theories under Reactions deprives these theories of epistemic equality. Terming the alternative theories "Reactions" puts them on equal ground with true reactions such as fear, disgust, anger, and jubilation. This implies that the theories are without reason or lack coherence; instead, they are organic human reactions to important events to be expected. This is wholly inappropriate for a developing, reasoned explanation of what happened.
Finally, I would like to voice my disgust at fellow editors who have reverted my edits, which were supported with an apparently unnoticed vote on this talk page, citing as justification "not an improvement" and the like. These were not reasoned reversions: they were the work of weasely editors who would rather resist change than debate it. I found it laughable that I was served with a warning over edit warring when one individual rejected my continued, supported edits with superficial cause.
Corinne Tabb( 69.129.105.58 15:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
First, I see no point in voting on whether a part of an article should be here or there. It needs to be figured out. So please, bring your arguments on the table. Thank you.
Second, I suggest to rename the whole section. "Conspiracy theories" in my view is not an adequate name. It implies that there is some kind of conspiracy when US officials (or others) are involved in the planning and acting out of the attacks while there would be no conspiracy if none is involved. This is wrong. Check out conspiracy. As alternative names of the section I suggest "non-official explanations" or "Explanations contradicting official account".
Third, in the end, the task will be to weed out the interpretations and present the facts. As an example: if there was no plane crashed into the Pentagon, we will not figure that out by editing plane or missile back and forth and putting the different accounts up and down different sections (reactions/responsibility). We will figure it out by editing out anything that can not cite credible sources. If some source is being criticized, mention the criticism. We can only get more detail that way. In the end the big picture will evolve out of the many many small pieces. -- Kjell.kuehne 05:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I think "conspirationist theories" is a very good name since to believe in them you need to be in a certain framework of mind that includes to accept that is feasible to create a conspiration that involves at least FBI, CIA, NSA, and NSC staff and keep it secret for several years. A theory which bears such surprising premise is really a special thing and must be included in a kind of theories. It is true that the name is eufemistic since the real one would be "completely unbelievable conspirations theories" or shorter : "unbelievable theories".
And regarding the suggested method to make the truth arise (i.e. accumulate millions of contradictory cites contradicting each other) I must clearly state that never in the history of human knowledge such a thing has been suggested. Truth arises as intersubjective consensus reached amongst honest thinkers that discuss in a common framework of mind. The thing becomes even more imposible when some of the thinkers insist in cherrypicking the cites with the intentional goal of reaching the conclusions they have selected as truth from the begining.-- Igor21 13:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The term conspiracy theory is often interpreted as pejorative term and implies to many people incorrectness or outrageusness in the theory. Many people, when told something is a conspiracy theory, will automatically dismiss it and refuse to give it any attention. Yet, something being labeled a conspiracy theory obviously does not necessarily mean it is untrue. By calling something a conspiracy theory, are we not implying to many people that it is untrue, and thus it is showing a POV? Kevin77v 08:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)kevin77v
Please add {{Link GA|zh}} in interwiki section. Thanks! -- Givegains 13:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm very unfamiliar with the 9/11 hierarchy of articles, and think that this should be included somewhere. But I am currently busy and haven't the spare time to work out the relevant place. If someone wore familiar with the articles could add it, i would be very grateful. Thanks, Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 14:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I recently watched a news clip showing on site first responders yelling to each other to get out of the area due to the fact that the building just next to the towers which I forget the name of but that was 47 stories high, was about to be "brought down" for safety reasons because it had sustained too much damage to be stable. Right after the warning to clear the area, in the background you can hear explosions going off rapidly, that were set by someone somehow. An engineer was interviewed about the clip and said that only experts could have set those timing devices and had the build implode that evenly and quickly. He said it was a professional job of controled demolition and would have taken at least 30 or 'more' men about at least half hour or 'more' under good conditions to set up. Or as Golbez brings out it would take a lot longer- so why did it have all the indicators of this being a set up? See this link: http://www.wtc7.net/ No planes hit that building yet it collapsed. Buildings with steel structures are built to hold up to a lot and remain standing. Also I just watched another clip that showed the engineers analysis of what happened with the towers and it showed how they came virtually straight down like a professional demo job .It could have been set up long before all this happened if it was an insurance scam on the buildings. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8076200333701191665The insurance companies should look into this. Can someone check into this and write an article? Well maybe I did not remember each thing the news clip said exactly and I can not spell but what about the witnesses accounts of hearing timed explosions and the audio of first responders calling for everyone to get out of the area because the building was about to be brought down? PS I just watched loose change and I am convinced it was all an inside job. It was all for money and power http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change+recut this is free to the public and should be watched by any citizen with an honest heart who wants to understand what happened. ( 69.129.105.58 15:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)) 31 March 2007 (UTC) Corinne Tabb
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
69.129.105.199 (
talk)
04:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
Per Wiki page instructions, I am opening a discussion point to add a link to an interview that I conducted with a Department of Defense employee present (within sight) of the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th.
As my 501c[3] non-profit foundation (American Antigravity) is partially supported by Google Ads, I would prefer NOT to hotlink to the audio-file directly, but instead to a descriptor page for the file, at the following URL:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/584/1/
Feel free to listen to the interview that I've conducted - it was off-the-cuff and unexpected when it happened, and thus is a little less structured than many of my others. However, I feel this is an important part of the history of September 11th, and thus is worth a link on the Sept 11th Wiki page.
Please note that the interview subject recounts his personal experience of the 911 attacks. This interview promotes the mainstream (non-conspiracy-theory) view of the attacks, and in no way disagrees with or undermines the accepted view of how or why these attacks occurred. It is not promoting a specific political or ideological agenda, merely providing context for understanding this tragedy from the viewpoint of one particular witness.
My interview subject had a number of colleagues who were inside the Pentagon for a briefing and were killed when the aircraft hit the building, and describes them briefly to memorialize their sacrifice.
Thank you;
Tim Ventura tventura6@comcast.net
Additional US Gov't Reports The article makes no reference in the gov't response section to other US reports and investigatins. I added:
- The Inspector General of the CIA conducted an internal review of the CIA's performance prior to 9/11, and was harshly critical of senior CIA officials for not doing everything possible to confront terrorism, including failing to stop two of the 9/11 hijackers, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, as they entered the United States and failing to share information on the two men with the FBI. (American Conservative, April 1, 2005, http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html last visited 2007/3/29.)
Golbez saw fit to remove this whole entry with the note "can't you link to the report directly?". I agree that there could be a link to the IG report. But I consider it unhelpful and disrespectful to remove a fully cited contribution merely because an additional citation could have been added. If Golbez wishes to contribute to the article, (s)he can add the additional cite or ask that it be added. Removing anotherwise good entry is not a constructive step. Since Golbez has not made any objection to content, I am restoring. Finally, the Congressional investigations should also be referenced here. I leave that to others.-- NYCJosh 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
>Why can't I edit the article? Babalooo 06:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The dancing Israelis incident that was reported by a number of mainstream media outlets, but funnily never mentioned again seems to paint a clear picture of who was responsible for the 9/11/2001 attacks. For those in need of a refresher this is what happened. On the day of the 9/11/2001 attacks 5 Israelis dressed as Arabs were seen and filmed in New Jersey dancing in the streets and congratulating one another and were also reported by residents to the police as jumping for joy while filming themselves in front of the towers after the initial impact. They were also reported to be driving a white, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' written on it and police were told to stop any white van if it was located. Police did stop the van and when they apprehended them they told the police "We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem.". The NYPD then found in their van maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters, $4700 cash stuffed in a sock and foreign passports. Bombsniffing dogs were also brought to the van and reacted as if they smelt explosives. The FBI also ceased and developed their photos, one of which showed one of the suspects holding up a flicked lighter in front of the buildings. Two former CIA officers confirmed that the moving van company 'Urban Moving Systems' was a front for Mossad and said that moving vans are commonly used for intelligence operations, they also said these Israelis were detained for only 71 days before being quietly let go and said "There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this was basically going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11."
Can someone explain to me why there's no mention of any of this?
Phazon - 04:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I would LOVE to know who deleted the entire section regarding "The Dancing Isralelis". I would love to know the why too. So it's fair to report the joy of Palestinians and at the same time remove any reference to the "The Dancing Isralelis"? It's perfect clear why Wikipedia won't ever be a trustworthy source of reference on its own. Ever! Scrobblix ( talk) 19:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)